Unsure of my spiritual direction

[Guest guest]

It will be as long as you desire,you can become self realized very quickly,or it can be a long drawn out process,the choice is yours.

 

It's all about effort,the more effort you put into

learning about something,the faster you become an expert in the subject.

 

Also the quality of the source is important,if you try to learn to be a doctor from the university of the bahamas,

you will not be as succesful as one going to Johns Hopkins,

so there is a difference between sources of information.

 

If you want to learn calculus,you don't go to a 3rd grade elementary school class,you go to the high school.

 

In the same way all religions offer some level of truth,

but they are not all the same.

 

the mormons teach that you will become a god,and your first born son will become jesus of your own planet.

 

the christians teach that simply accepting Jesus as savior is suffiecent for God realization.

 

The jews have a variety of beliefs but do not accept

that God can actually appear as a human,nor do most belive in an afterlife.

 

Muslims mostly believe like christians but change Jesus for Muhammmed,and believe that simply accepting belief

in muhammed is sufficient for human life to attain

the highest possibilities of our existence.

 

Buddhists generally do not believe in an actual conscious

being with an actual will to relate to.

 

So religions are very different,depending on your choice

you will get the offerings of that relgion.

 

They are not all the same any more then all stores are the same,or all food is the same.

[debbie]

I would like to ask a question, that may not really relate to this subject line..I have noticed in some of the posts, not necessarily in reference to mine, but some other discussions, Christianity seems to be put down..Is this the way most people in your country see religious people that claim to be Christians..I know, I can not speak for them, only for myself..I can not put down any religion, because, here, in the USA, religion is one's choice how one serves God..Just as now, I am free to read and study other religions, different from what is norm here, even though some people may or may not agree with my choice..Debbie

[theist]

debbie,

 

Good observation.In material consciousness people are forced to identify with their bodies,the nations they were born in,and the current religion that they identify with.This is all illusion.

 

I was born in a white male body,in the USA,so I generally think of myself as a white male American.In the past though I may have been born as a female Chinese and so then I would have considered myself as a Chinese woman.All of this is false ego.

 

Real religion means to love God.The fanatics will always choose to bicker back and forth,go to war because someone has a different religon etc.It is not a fruit of genuine spiritual understanding however, and so we need to avoid such a mentality.

 

I think you are expressing a mature view on the subject.On this forum there are people from all over the world posting.I live in the USA as do a lot of posters.Some live in Europe and many others live in India.Please know that one voice doesn't speak for all here.

 

I myself have problems with present day Christianity,Islam and the hodgepodge of beliefs that gets called Hinduism.Truth everwhere but it gets mixed with the thoughts of fanatics so we must excercise caution when trying to extract that truth.

 

I pray to God through Christ and chant God's names Hare Krsna and Rama.There is no conflict but be assured those that need to feed on arguements will always find some way of sowing discord.

 

Peace to you.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Many Hindus will have great respect for Christianity and other religions. It is all really a personal matter. Hinduism itself accepts that there are multiple paths to God.

 

Srila Prabhupada considered Jesus Christ to be an empowered incarnation of God, who came to preach God consciousness. Theist could probably add more about this.

 

[Edit: Theist replied before I finished writing this.]

[leyh]

Dear Debbie:

 

I hope you are well. The Srimad Bhagavatam, which is an ancient scripture in the Vedic canon, defines the supreme occupation for which all humanity as that by which we can attain to devotional service for God and it specifies that this devotionals ervice has to be unmotivated and uninterrupted for the self to be completely satisfied.(Srimad Bhagavatam)1.2.6)

 

So whatever spiritual process we follow, as long as it will help us to advance towards unmotivated and uninterrupted love for God is a potent process and whateevr which does not is simply a waste of time. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura (1838-1914) a great spiritual master in the Gaudiya Vaishnava line of His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada defines eternal religion as love for the Lord and further five characteristics of false religions --- impersonalism, pantheism, skepticism, atheism and materialism. These five characteristics are intrinsically contrary to love and as such will constitute features of false religion.

 

I'm not saying you should accept this analysis wholesale, but I think we have to maintain a balanced approach to viewing religions. On one extreme is the simplistic view that all religions are the same and leads to the same goal, which is quite absurd when taken to its logical conclusion. The person praying to a tree spirit for some material benediction has a very different motive from the sadhu chanting on his beads in a temple. So how can their goal be the same? The other extreme is the fanatical belief that:"My religion alone is true and all others are false."

 

Ultimately, if God is spiritual, then He should be above all material, man-made designations like "Buddhist", "Christian", "Hindu", "Muslim", etc. and those who are His servants will similarly rise above these designations.Love of God --- this should be the universal platform for all religions, at least the theistic systems.

 

 

[gHari]

Ms. Debbie,

 

I have been struck by your honesty and humility, as well as the nice remarks some of the regulars here have offered to you. It definitely seems that God is reaching out to you through these saintly cyber sages.

 

JNdas has noted that there will certainly be something to attract you somewhere in the Vedas. I can remember becoming infatuated with Lord Rama as soon as I heard about Him. God, Krishna, performs many pastimes in His form of Sri Rama. Rama is strong and noble and the ultimate cool. I had been a fastball pitching shot-putter, discus throwing hammer wielding javelin thrower most of my life it seemed, and when I read about Rama's inconceivable strength I knew this was my hero.

 

Later I found the Bhagavad-gita, the Song of God, in which the hero is often called "O Mighty-armed Arjuna" by God Himself. So I really identified with this friend of Krsna's since my entire self-image had revolved around my right arm and the glory it had wielded for so many years.

 

If you want to find God, to know the Ultimate Truth of what is happening here, eventually you will detach yourself from the normal humdrum drama of the world of cement and pavement, and just spinning around on a planet amidst billions of stars, realize that finding the truth is the only REAL purpose we have. Then you can't help but be attracted to God. He is All-Attractive; or in sanskrit, the language of consciousness, He is Krs-na (Krish = All-Attractive, na = Person). Everything points to Him once we really see and hear.

 

And that's the truth; the whole Truth. Sri Krsna! The life sublime.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

 

there are two types of people who engage in religious

activity.

 

One type desires to use God as servant,they pray asking God to get them this or that,to help this person or that person, to change this or that situation.

 

This is the foolish way to approach god.

in effect by these prayers we are saying to God, "I don't

like the way you are running the show, please change

things to accomodate my superior vision ".

 

the other type of person engaged in spiritual practice take's the opposite attitude towards god, he/she say's

"I am insignificant, my vision is less then yours ,

how can I accomodate your vision ?"

 

the biblical religions try to use god as their servant,

they tell the people "this world is not under god's control,

it's under the control of satan and evil, pray to God to

help you battle satan and to change what is going on in this world to satisfy your vision."

 

The vedic concept believes that this is God's world,

God is in charge of everything and everyone,

God has no competitor like satan ,why would God allow

such a being to interfere with God's world ?

The vedic concept is that WE are the problem,

the world is not the problem, satan isn't the problem,

Our sojourn here in this world is for becoming

a lover and intimate associate of God, praying

to God to change the world to accomodate our vision

is a betrayel of faith and trust in the intelligence

and method that God chooses to run this world.

 

the path of Bhakti yoga concerns the inner world,

becoming aligned with God, as opposed to trying

to become a God and impose our will on God.

[debbie]

I am glad to hear that all Hindus have respect for Christianity and other religions.I, too believe it is a personal matter, and believe there are many paths to God. I also know I believe in Jesus Christ and believe he was on this earth to give the people awareness of God and that we should serve Him. I have been here for a long time,and feel that the time has come I try to find a way to come and know God. I can tell you,even though I have my beliefs,as it is, I am searching for a different path to God.I just feel that, by personal preference, I want to travel a path to God,less traveled than most of my people here, where I live.It will remain to be seen, if I am doing the right thing.But,I believe any path I take, that will bring me closer in knowing God,is not a bad choice.I am sure you, and any of your people,here,that answer my plea, will try your best to help me in any way possible. Thanks for all your help.. Debbie

[debbie]

I just wanted to share with you a special prayer, many of you have already heard. It is somewhat how I feel and sometimes I use this prayer. It is called:

 

The Serenity Prayer

 

God grant me the serenity to accept

The things I can not change

Courage to change the things I can

And the wisdom to know the difference.

 

Living one day at a time

Enjoying one moment at a time

Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace.

 

Taking as He did, this sinful world as it is

Not as I would have it.

 

Trusting that He will make all things

right, if I surrender to His will.

 

That I will be reasonably happy in this life.

And supremely happy in the next. Amen..

 

Maybe I should not have posted that, but sometimes it just gives comfort to me. I can not tell you the originator of this prayer.

I realize God is the supreme being, and he has given us life. It is our duty and hopefully our best choice to become fully aware of Him, to serve him, and know He is the one that is running this world. Too many people, I am sure, have turned away, and will not accept Him, as the supreme being,that He is..I just have to find out how is best for me to find this within myself, to better serve Him..

Debbie

[theist]

Thanks for that debbie.

 

I had only heard the first four lines and didn't even know there was more.That prayer speaks to the attitude that I am trying to develop but am having a hard time doing so.The illusion that we are the ones in control is hard to get past.Gradually though we are learning.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

[debbie]

You said you had read the Bhagavad-gita..Last night, I was up all night, and I had read the english translation, from a web-site..I had read maybe 11 chapters so far.I know I will read them again,to get an even better grasp of all I was reading, because as I did say, I was up all last night, and I was a little tired. What I read so far, has been quite informative. I know some of the words were not familiar to me, and I would like to ask some of you later about them.But there is one question, that I do have for right now. There is some mention about women,merchants(vaisyas), and workers(sugras) being the lower birth.Forgive me for me not knowing some things, but could you or someone please explain what that means. I know I have heard that in India, in some places women must obey their fathers and obey their husbands, but does that mean they are of a lower birth? Debbie

[Guest guest]

hi it's shiva here,

the vedic conception is not that women are inferior,

that is obviously not the fact,just look at the statistics.

 

What it refers to is that women are in a body that is

harder to cope with when it comes to the renunciation of

sexual thought patterns, and lust in general,

female bodies are made for sex more then male bodies

and it is easier for a man to be immersed in spiritual

research and development then it is for a women.

Also the menstrual cycle plays havoc on a womens mind and emotions,making it more difficult for them to stay focused .

 

It is only a minor thing ,but generally for the mass of people this idea doesn't apply, only for the very serious in their yogic practice,for them it is a bit easier for men.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

There is some mention about women,merchants(vaisyas), and workers(sugras) being the lower birth.Forgive me for me not knowing some things, but could you or someone please explain what that means.

 

 

When it says women and shudras (workers) are of lower birth, it means they have a more difficult life than others. It does not mean they are bad people, or somehow less in the eyes of God. Shudras have to work a very hard life, earning little, but laboring hard. Women have so many dificult responsibilities, such as giving birth to children, raising, them, etc. Thus in this sense, they undergo more hardships then men.

[Guest guest]

and even those who are undergoing hardships can approach God.Devotional life cannot be checked by any material condition.This is a fact.Once you take 1 step God takes 10.

 

Women have hard life.This is very true of 3rd world countries.In India also,nowdays nobody is God concious.

[Guest guest]

 

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Generally, the distressed, the needy, the intelligent, and the inquisitive who have performed some pious activities worship or begin to worship the Lord. Others, who are thriving on misdeeds only, regardless of status, cannot approach the Supreme due to being misled by the illusory energy. Therefore, for a pious person, if there is some calamity there is no other alternative than to take shelter of the lotus feet of the Lord. Constantly remembering the lotus feet of the Lord means preparing for liberation from birth and death. Therefore, even though there are so-called calamities, they are welcome because they give us an opportunity to remember the Lord, which means liberation.

 

One who has taken shelter of the lotus feet of the Lord, which are accepted as the most suitable boat for crossing the ocean of nescience, can achieve liberation as easily as one leaps over the holes made by the hooves of a calf. Such persons are meant to reside in the abode of the Lord, and they have nothing to do with a place where there is danger in every step.

 

This material world is certified by the Lord in the Bhagavad-gita as a dangerous place full of calamities. Less intelligent persons prepare plans to adjust to those calamities, without knowing that the nature of this place is to be full of calamities. They have no information of the abode of the Lord, which is full of bliss and without trace of calamity. The duty of the sane person, therefore, is to be undisturbed by worldly calamities, which are sure to happen in all circumstances. Suffering all sorts of unavoidable misfortunes, one should make progress in spiritual realization, because that is the mission of human life. The spirit soul is transcendental to all material calamities; therefore, the so-called calamities are called false. A man may see a tiger swallowing him in a dream, and he may cry for this calamity. Actually there is no tiger and there is no suffering; it is simply a case of dreams. In the same way, all calamities of life are said to be dreams. If someone is lucky enough to get in contact with the Lord by devotional service, it is all gain. Contact with the Lord by any one of the nine devotional services is always a forward step on the path going back to Godhead.

 

In this very interesting verse, it is described that vipadah--calamities or dangers--are very good if such dangers and calamities remind us of Krishna.

 

tat te 'nukampam susamiksamano

bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam

 

(Bhag. 10.14.8)

 

How does a devotee receive dangers? There must be dangers because this material world is full of dangers. But foolish people who do not know this try to avoid the dangers. Thus they struggle for existence. Everyone is trying to become happy and avoid danger. This is our material business. Everyone is trying for atyantikam sukham, ultimate happiness. A working man thinks, "Let me work very hard now and put money in the bank, so that when I get old I shall enjoy life without working." This is the inner intention of everyone. No one wants to work; as soon as one gets some money, he wants to retire from work and become happy. But that is not possible. One cannot become happy in that way.

 

Here Kuntidevi speaks of apunar bhava-darsanam. The prefix a means "not," and punar bhava means "repetition of birth and death." The real danger is the repetition of birth and death. That must be stopped.

 

The material world is full of dangers (padam padam yad vipadam). For example, if one is on the ocean one may have a very strong ship, but that ship can never be safe; because one is at sea, at any time there may be dangers. The Titanic was safe, but on its first voyage it sank, and many important men lost their lives. So danger there must be, because we are in a dangerous position. This material world itself is dangerous. Therefore, our business now should be to cross over this sea of danger as soon as possible. As long as we are at sea, we are in a dangerous position, however strong our ship may be. That's a fact. But we should not be disturbed by the sea waves; instead, we should just try to cross over the sea and get to the other side. That should be our business.

 

As long as we are in this material world, there must be calamities because this is the place of calamity. But even with calamities our business should be to develop our Krishna consciousness, so that after giving up this body we may go back home, back to Krishna.

 

On the Battlefield of Kuruksetra, Arjuna said to Krishna, "Whatever You are saying is all right. I am not this body. I am a soul, and this is also true of everyone else. So when the body is annihilated, the soul will continue to exist. But when I see that my son is dying or my grandfather is dying and that I am killing, how can I be solaced simply by knowing that they are not dying, but that only their bodies are changing? I am accustomed to thinking of them with affection in terms of the body, and so there must be grief and suffering."

 

Krishna did not deny what Arjuna said. "Yes," He replied. "That's a fact. Because you are in the bodily concept of life, there must be suffering. So you must tolerate it, that's all. There is no other remedy." As mentioned in Bhagavad-gita (2.14), Lord Krishna told Arjuna:

 

matra-sparsas tu kaunteya

sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah

agamapayino 'nityas

tams titiksasva bharata

 

"O son of Kunti, the nonpermanent appearance of heat and cold, happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed."

 

In America it may sometimes be very chilly in the morning, and that may make taking one's morning bath a little difficult. But does that mean that those who are devotees will stop taking their prescribed morning bath? No. Even if it is chilly, they must take this regular bath. The duty must be done, even if there is a little suffering involved. That is called tapasya, or austerity. Tapasya means that we must proceed with our business of Krishna consciousness despite all the dangers and calamities of this world. This is called tapasya, or voluntary acceptance of the difficulties of life.

 

Sometimes those who have undertaken strict vows of tapasya will ignite a ring of fire all around themselves, and in the scorching heat of the sun in the hot summer they will sit down in the midst of that fire and meditate. Similarly, in the chilly cold of winter they will immerse themselves in water up to the neck and meditate. Such vows are prescribed in strict systems of tapasya. But Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu does not give us such a prescription. Instead, He gives us a very nice program: chant, dance, and take prasada, food offered first to Lord Krishna. But still we are unwilling. We are so fallen that we cannot accept even this tapasya. Although this kind of tapasya is very easy to perform and very pleasant (su-sukham kartum avyayam), still we are not agreeable. We may even prefer to rot in the street. Some people prefer to drink and have sex and live in the street. So what can be done?

 

The Krishna consciousness movement is giving all facilities so that people may come here, chant, dance, live very peacefully, take krishna-prasada, and be happy, but people will not accept it. That is called misfortune. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, portraying the people of this age, therefore said, "I am so unfortunate that I have no attachment for chanting Hare Krishna." Lord Caitanya prayed (Siksastaka 2):

 

namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis

tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah

etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi

durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah

 

Krishna, the transcendental holy name of God, has all potencies, Lord Caitanya said. Krishna has unlimited potencies, and similarly in the holy name of Krishna there are unlimited potencies. Krishna has thousands and thousands of names, of which the name Krishna is the chief, and there are no hard and fast rules for chanting. It is not that one must chant at a certain time. No. At any time one may chant. Furthermore, Krishna's name is identical with Krishna Himself. Therefore the holy name of Krishna is Krishna.

 

We should not think that Krishna is living in His abode, Goloka Vrndavana, and that His name is different from Him. In the material world, of course, in the material conception, a name is different from the fact it represents. But in the absolute world there are no such differences. The name is as potent as Krishna is. We have a tongue, and if we use this tongue to chant Hare Krishna, we shall immediately come directly in touch with Krishna, because the name Krishna and the person Krishna are not different. We may think that Krishna is far, far away, but in fact Krishna is within us. He is far away, but at the same time He is the nearest. But even if we think that Krishna is far, far away, His name is present. We can chant Hare Krishna, and Krishna will immediately become available. Krishna is available in this easy way, for which there are no hard and fast rules. We can chant at any time and immediately get Krishna. Just see the mercy of Krishna!

 

Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah: "My dear Lord, You have given me such generous facilities by which to contact You, but I am so unfortunate that I have no attachment for these things. I have attachment for so many other things, but I have no attachment for chanting Hare Krishna. This is my misfortune." Krishna is so magnanimous that He is present before us by the transcendental vibration of His name, which has all the potencies of Krishna Himself, and if we remain in contact with that name we shall get all the benefits of Krishna's benedictions. But still we are not inclined to chant the Hare Krishna mantra. This is our misfortune.

 

A devotee, however, is never disturbed by dangers, reverses, or calamities. Rather, he welcomes them. Because he is a surrendered soul, he knows that both dangers and festivals are but different demonstrations of Krishna, who is absolute. In the sastra, the Vedic literature, it is said that religion and irreligion, which are complete opposites, are merely the front portion and the back portion of God. But is there any difference between God's front and God's back? God is absolute, and therefore a devotee, either in opulence or in danger, is undisturbed, knowing that both of these are Krishna.

 

When a devotee is in danger, he thinks, "Now Krishna has appeared before me as danger." In His form of Nrsimhadeva, the Lord was dangerous to the demon Hiranyakasipu, but the same Nrsimhadeva was the supreme friend to the devoted Prahlada Maharaja. God is never dangerous to the devotee, and the devotee is never afraid of dangers, because he is confident that the danger is but another feature of God. "Why should I be afraid?" the devotee thinks. "I am surrendered to Him."

 

Therefore Kuntidevi says, vipadah santu: "Let there be calamities." Vipadah santu tah sasvat: "Let all those calamities happen again and again." Because she knows how to remember Krishna at times of danger, she is welcoming danger. "My dear Lord," she says, "I welcome dangers, because when dangers come I can remember You." When Prahlada Maharaja's father was putting him into dangerous predicaments, Prahlada was always thinking of Krishna. So if we are put into a dangerous position and that danger gives us an impetus to remember Krishna, that is welcome: "Oh, I am getting this opportunity to remember Krishna." Why is this welcome? It is welcome because seeing Krishna or remembering Krishna means advancing in spiritual life so that we will not have to suffer any more of these dangers. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so 'rjuna (Bg. 4.9). If one becomes advanced in Krishna consciousness, the result will be that after giving up the body (tyaktva deham) one will not have to take birth again in this material world (punar janma naiti). This is to be desired.

 

Suppose I am very comfortable at the present moment. My body may be comfortable, but there will be death, and then another birth. After giving up my present body, if I get the body of a cat or a dog, what is the meaning of my comfortable position? Death is sure, and after death one must surely accept another body. We may not know what kind of body we shall get, but we can know from the sastra, the Vedic literature. The sastra says that according to our particular mentality, we will get a particular kind of body. Although I may be in a comfortable position, if I keep myself in the mentality of a dog, I shall get my next life as a dog. Therefore, what is the value of this comfortable position? I may be in a comfortable position for twenty years, thirty years, fifty years, or at the utmost one hundred years. Yet if, when I give up this body, my mentality causes me to become a cat, a dog, or a mouse, what is the benefit of this comfortable position? But people do not consider this. They think, especially in the present age, "I am now in a comfortable position. I have enough money and a good estate. I have ample comforts and enough food. When this body is finished, I am not going to take birth again, so as long as I am living, let me enjoy life." This is the modern philosophy of hedonism, but it does not correspond to the facts.

 

Kunti, however, is aware of birth and death, and she is anxious not to repeat this process. This is indicated by the words apunar bhava-darsanam. If one always sees Krishna, one is in Krishna consciousness, for Krishna consciousness means always thinking of Krishna. One's consciousness should be absorbed in Krishna thought. Therefore the spiritual master gives different varieties of engagements to devotees in Krishna consciousness. For example, under the direction of the spiritual master the devotees may sell books in Krishna consciousness. But if the devotees think that the energy invested in selling books should be diverted into selling jewelry, that is not a very good idea. Then they would become nothing more than jewelers. We should be very much careful not to be diverted from Krishna consciousness. Even if there is danger or suffering in Krishna consciousness, we should tolerate it. We should even welcome such danger, and we should pray in appreciation to Krishna.

 

How should we pray? Tat te 'nukampam susamiksamanah: "My dear Lord, it is Your great mercy that I have been put into this dangerous position." That is the viewpoint of a devotee. He doesn't regard danger as danger. Rather, he thinks, "It is Krishna's mercy." What kind of mercy? Bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam: "Because of my past activities, I was meant to suffer very much. But You are mitigating that suffering and giving me only a little." In other words, by the grace of Krishna a devotee may receive only token punishment.

 

In court an important man is sometimes found to be a culprit, and the judge may be able to fine him a hundred thousand dollars and know that the man can pay it. But he may tell the man, "You just give one cent." That is also punishment, but it is greatly minimized. Similarly, we have to suffer for our past deeds. That is a fact, and we cannot avoid it. But karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam (Brahma-samhita 5.54): the sufferings of those who engage in devotional service in Krishna consciousness are minimized. For example, one may have been destined to be killed, but instead of being killed with a knife, he may instead get some little cut on his finger. In this way, for those who engage in devotional service, the reactions of past activities are minimized. Lord Krishna assures His devotees, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami: "I shall give you protection from the reactions of sinful life." So even if a devotee has a history of very grievous criminal activities behind him, instead of being killed he may only get a little cut on his finger. Why then should a devotee fear danger?

 

We should simply depend on Krishna consciousness, because if we live Krishna consciously under all circumstances, we shall not return to this material world (apunar bhava-darsanam). If we repeatedly think of Krishna, see Krishna, read of Krishna, work for Krishna, and somehow or other remain in Krishna consciousness, we benefit in such a way that we shall be saved from taking birth again in the material world. That is true benefit. But if we become a little comfortable because of other, materialistic engagements and we forget Krishna and have to take birth again, then what is our benefit? We should be very careful about this. We should act in such a way that our Krishna consciousness can under no circumstances be disturbed, even if there is heavy suffering. That is the instruction of Kuntidevi.

 

Before winning the Battle of Kuruksetra, all the Pandavas were put into many dangers, as already described in the previous verses. They were given poison, they were put into a house of lac that was later set afire, and sometimes they were even confronted with great man-eating demons. They lost their kingdom, they lost their wife, they lost their prestige, and they were exiled to the forest. But throughout all those dangers, Krishna was there. When the Kauravas were trying to strip Draupadi naked, Krishna was there supplying cloth to protect her honor. Krishna was always there.

 

Therefore, when the Pandavas went to see their grandfather, Bhismadeva, on his deathbed, Bhismadeva began to cry. "These boys, my grandsons, are all very pious," he said. "Maharaja Yudhisthira, the oldest of the brothers, is the most pious person. He is even called Dharmaraja, the king of religion. Bhima and Arjuna are both devotees, and they are such powerful heroes that they can kill thousands of men. Their wife, Draupadi, is directly the goddess of fortune, and it has been enjoined that wherever she is, there will be no scarcity of food. Thus they all form a wonderful combination, and moreover, Lord Krishna is always with them. But still they are suffering." Thus he began to cry, saying, "I do not know what is Krishna's arrangement, because such pious devotees are also suffering."

 

Therefore, we should not think, "Because I have become a devotee, there will be no danger or suffering." Prahlada Maharaja suffered greatly, and so did other devotees like the Pandavas and Haridasa Thakura. But we should not be disturbed by such sufferings. We must have firm faith, firm conviction, knowing, "Krishna is present, and He will give me protection." Don't try to take the benefit of any shelter other than Krishna. Always take to Krishna.

 

In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati: "My dear Arjuna, you may declare to the world that My devotee is never vanquished." Now, one may ask, why did Krishna advise Arjuna to declare this? Why did He not declare it Himself? The answer is that if Krishna Himself made this declaration, it might be suspect, because Krishna sometimes violates His own promise. But the promise of a devotee will never be violated. This is Krishna's concern. "Oh, My devotee has declared this. I must see that his word is kept." This is Krishna's position because of His affection for His devotee. Therefore Lord Krishna said, "You declare it. If I declare it, people may not believe it, but if you declare it they will believe you because you are a devotee." Even though Krishna may break His own promise, He wants to see that the promises of His devotees are fulfilled.

 

Therefore, we must take to Krishna consciousness and adhere to this consciousness under all circumstances, even in the most dangerous position. We must keep our faith in Krishna's lotus feet, and then there will be no danger.

 

(His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada from Teachings of Queen Kunti)

 

[debbie]

jndas,

I appreciate the explanations to my question.There is a lot of things, that you and your posters can help me, understand, as I admit, I am new in this journey, and will need a lot of help in getting a full understanding.There is still some question in my mind, due to an earlier post that I want to comment on later, pertaining to this subject reply, but I want to think about it, before I give a reply for that one.You have to understand, I am normally a quiet person, but sometimes I have a tendency to say too much when I write.I normally tell how I feel about things, and this might be my downfall.But anytime, I do not know something, I will surely ask.Thanks to all of you for your comments.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Debbie

[karthik_v]

Shiva,

 

 

female bodies are made for sex more then male bodies

 

 

What to say? This is an unscientific statement, to say the least. And based purely on dogma.

[atma]

Debbie,

 

the beauty of this philosophy is that teach you that we are not this body. We're eternal spirit souls parts and parcels of the Lord.

 

The first thing to understand is that you are a spirit soul. Maybe in this lifetime you're in a woman body and can't remember what body you had in your previous life and you don't know what body you may get in next life. Each time you die you change bodies, but you, the spirit soul within the body, remains the same.

 

The perfection of life is try to realize our relationship with Krishna, or God.

 

If you continue reading the books of KC, you'll find writen in some parts that women are less intelligent, lower birth, more lusty,etc,etc. Whatever, just remember that our goal of life is trascend this material designations and go back to Godhead by a simply process of meditation, just chanting : Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.

 

I'm also in a woman body in this lifetime, mother of 2 daughters and of course is hard to have this body. I do recognize that maybe phisically is easier to have a male body and maybe we're more emotional and we follow our heart more often but in the end we have to understand that we don't want to fall in the trap of 'I'm this body".

 

We have to utilize whatever we have to understand God and our relationship with Him.

 

Most of the people in these forums are very nice and they have knowledge and experience of Krishna Consciousness. Few others they just write their opinions without knowledge, just their perceptions. Another thing, not all Hindus accept Christianity, here you'll find some Jesus-hater, just skip their posts. At least that's what I do and avoid the offences.

 

Atma

[debbie]

atma,

I guess you have really hit something that was questionable in my mind, when I had read the earlier post that talked about women. Thanks for your comments, and detailed explanation..As you know, I am a woman also,and have 2 grown children. I know we, as women, are not as strong as a man, and have many emotions to deal with, from day to day.But I could not understand, the part that women were made more for sex than men.Sometimes, in this country, I feel some men,not all, think more with their lower anatomy, than with their brain. I do not mean that any of you posters feel this way or are in any way like this. I really feel all of you are quite different. In my opinion, most of you are very knowledge in our discussions..I hope you do not mind, me asking questions, that may or may not sound crazy to you when I have them..If I don't know, I will ask, and you can be sure of that..Atma,I realize whatever body we have,we have to try to understand God and our relationship with Him.

I know there are some people, that may not like me, or what I say..So far, most people that have actually replied to me, have been really nice, and tried to help me with the best of their abilities, and I am truly thankful to have this kind of help..I desperately need all the help I can possibly get...Once again thanks to all of you..Debbie

[stonehearted]

Debbie wrote: "I know we, as women, are not as strong as a man, and have many emotions to deal with, from day to day.But I could not understand, the part that women were made more for sex than men.Sometimes, in this country, I feel some men,not all, think more with their lower anatomy, than with their brain."

 

I was thinking the same thing. The comment about women being made more for sex is that poster's own opinion; it has nothing to do with spiritual understanding. As Atma writes, the beginning of spiritual understanding is the vision that we are spiritual entities, not these material bodies. And the particular body each of us has actually has nothing to do with our spiritual identity. The only use it has is engagement in activities that train the mind (also not us) to remember our relationship with the Supreme, Krishna, as His eternal servant. In traditional Vedic society, being a woman was considered a disadvantage for in many endeavors. However, our scriptures are full of examples of women with advanced spiritual understanding, and Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita that, in the effort for spiritual advancement, the traditional considerations of caste and gender are meaningless.

 

When that poster wrote that women are made more for sex than men, I cracked up. My first thought was that this was someone who has either very little experience in the world or isn't honest. Men are just as hormone driven as women. That's where the aggression comes from. That's why so many men look at women and assess them as objects of sexual gratification. That's where date rape comes from. And so many of our wars. Some years ago I heard a well-known woman writer discuss her experience with an artificial male hormone prescribed early in menopause that explained to me why it seems so many men think with that part of their anatomy. It's a little anatomically graphic, so I don't want to go into much detail here.

 

I hope this doesn't degenerate to a discussion of whether vedic culture considers men more fit for spiritual life than women. Our experience shows that not to be the case. Even among ourselves, we've seen many wonderful women devotees and many men who cannot control their minds and senses that any overgeneralization is obviously silly. The real point is that the gender of your physical body has nothing to do with your spiritual life or your eligibility for entering it.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

But I could not understand, the part that women were made more for sex than men.

 

 

Whenever you read someone's post here, just take it as their personal opinion and not as an official view of Hinduism, Vaishnavism or any other group. I don't think you will find a second person here who agrees with this statement quoted above.

 

As far as our perception of others based on their body, the Bhagavad Gita instructs us as follows:

 

vidya-vinaya-sampanne

brahmane gavi hastini

shuni caiva shva-pake ca

panditah sama-darshinah

 

"The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana [a preist], a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste]."

 

Srila Prabhupada says in his purport to this verse:

 

"A Krishna conscious person does not make any distinction between species or castes. The brahmana [priest] and the outcaste may be different from the social point of view, or a dog, a cow, and an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from the viewpoint of a learned transcendentalist. This is due to their relationship to the Supreme, for the Supreme Lord, by His plenary portion as Paramatma, is present in everyone’s heart. Such an understanding of the Supreme is real knowledge."

[raga]

 

female bodies are made for sex more then male bodies

 

 

This is a very funny proposal in fact. It is my understanding that women and men were meant to engage in sex together and thus procreate, filling the world with progeny. So two are required for sexual intercourse, one man and one woman, and both have an appropriate design for that.

 

Perhaps the poster meant to say that women are designed to be more sexually attractive, ie. that they were made to be more beautiful looking. I do not think any lady should be offended by such a statement. We may observe that most of the make-up industry is targeted to women, which shows that in general women are more keen of decorating themselves to make their appearance pleasant to look at. At least they appear to spend more time and money on that.

 

In general, I believe we can agree on the fact that in general men are more sexually obsessed about women than women are about men. I recall reading a study which presented how the sexual urge of a man is more animalistic and aggressive in nature than that of a woman. Most of the erotic / pornographic industry also appears to be targeted for men.

 

I would personally conclude that, at least inasmuch as the Western world is concerned, women tend to spend more time on trying to look beautiful, while men tend to spend more time being grossly obsessed on the opposite sex. That in itself tells its flattering story about the high spiritual qualification of mankind.

[Guest guest]

 

I know i've read in the scripture that the female

form is made more for sex then the male form.

 

You may disagree, but it is also described that

for those with an intense lustiness they take birth as women.

 

I stand by my statement.

 

It is not that women are inferior (like canadians),

they are simply more affected by their bodies

then men, for a man to disagree they would have to experience life as a women, since that is impossible

any such disagreement has no experience to back it up.

 

Female bodies are made for pleasure,they are not made for

hard work or strenous activity,this is not to say that this is a hard and fast rule, some women are stronger then some men, some women are less lusty then some men,

and some women are more inclined for renunciation then some men.

 

But generally speaking what i spoke is true.

[raga]

<blockquote><hr>

Research recently published in the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion and the American Journal of Sociology shows that women are more religious than men throughout the world.

 

All of which makes University of Washington sociologist Rodney Stark, who compiled the international research, wonder why. His answer: It is apparently biological. Men are hard-wired to riskier behavior, and less likely to embrace the religious concepts of delayed self-gratification.

 

The old assumptions that gender differences were more a matter of nurture than nature -- that the culture gave women responsibility for faith and family -- just don't measure up over the last generations, he says.

 

With more women entering the workplace and more men embracing nontraditional roles, there was an assumption there would be a leveling off of religious differences. But the differences are unchanged.

 

Even direct efforts such as Promise Keepers, which recruited millions to stadium events and Christian men's groups in churches, have failed to balance the scales of religious participation.

 

http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/110202/rel_110202038.shtml

 

<hr></blockquote>

 

[karthik_v]

Debbie,

 

You have seen some excellent responses from J N Das, Stonehearted and Atma. If somebody makes a derogatory statement about women or any social group, it must be treated as his/her opinion. Or sometimes, such statements are an outcome of certain social conditions or epochs. These are, by no means, scriptural injunctions. Let me provide you with some very interesting data.

 

The vedas are considered apaurusya or eternal and are the holiest of the Hindu scriptures. They are 4 in number, the Rk veda being the oldest. Rk veda was revealed to 427 seers or sages and of them 21 were women. Now, let us not bother about the ratio; what this illustrates is that women are by no means inferior to men. Men and women are complimentary. Their relationship, whether spiritual or material, is symbiotic and not hierarchial.

 

Likewise, some of the Vaishnava saints of the greatest acclaim have been women. Andal and Meera are 2 examples. If I were to make an audacious statement, may I add that their hymns are cherished and recited more than what their male counterparts wrote?

 

Raga,

 

 

Perhaps the poster meant to say that women are designed to be more sexually attractive, ie. that they were made to be more beautiful looking.

 

 

And men are also meant to be sexually attractive. Just as every man seeks a woman who is "feminine", and the definitions of which vary by culture and epochs, women are also attracted to men who are "masculine". It is very natural for a woman to make herself attractive to men as it is for a man to make himself attractive to women.

 

Shiva,

 

 

I know i've read in the scripture that the female form is made more for sex then the male form.

 

 

There are always enough works that display some phobia towards women. To take them seriously is not correct. Both men and women are made for sex, though not sex alone. While, in general, neither can lead a meaningful life without sex, an obsession or aversion for sex doesn't enrich the life either; rather it divests it of its variety. And sex isn't something about which one needs to feel bad. Hindus didn't feel that way, until the Muslims invaded. Sex isn't animalistic either. It is the foundation on which the edifice of marital intimacy is built. It is the passion that goes with it, that makes the human kind strive. Lust is not a dirty word either, if it remains within the bounds of marriage. Barring very, very few transcendental souls, for whom sex is irrelevant [and they won't talk about it either], all the others should feel naturally at ease with sex. Some take to it naturally and enjoy pleasure; some repress it and it finds vent in the form of terrible attitudes with women - a species whom they haven't understood intimately, but can't let go either. You should feel sorry for such specimens instead of emulating them. Even if they turn up in saffron robes.