debbie Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 Avinash, The web site is www.asitis.com/. I know it has 18 chapters, but unsure if it has 700 verses.. I will have to check.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 Shiva, it is significant to note that you are yet to present any references to any actual shastra aside the Shiva-samhita you keep reciting day in and day out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 raga if you do not read the link i gave, why state something you do not know to be tru. The article by a Vaisnavini gives numerous quotes to support my position. Why take on an attitude if you do not know the difference between the shastric conclusions and mental speculation ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 I went through the article and couldn't find any scriptural quotes to substantiate your position about women, namely that: "Shastra clearly tells us that women in general are not as serious as men in spiritual undertaking..." Could you quote an exact verse from a scripture that clearly states this. Otherwise it is impossible for anyone to answer your statements, as they are baseless till now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debbie Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 jndas, I know you had told me not to worry, but I feel I have open up a can of worms, so to speak, and it has got things in a uproar. I am sorry..I did not mean to cause this. I know everyone has their own opinion about things, and different people can read different things and interpret it in different ways. If people here would rather I not post, because of the questions I ask, let me know. I enjoy coming here to try to learn more, but I do not,in any way, want to cause problems between the posters you have here. Debbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 Debbie, Don't worry about controversy. It is bound to come up in the course of time, and a mature discussion of such controversies will bring about wisdom to all. siddhAnta baliyA citte nA kara alasa ihA ha-ite kRSNe lAge sudRDha mAnasa "In considering conclusions, do not be a lazy fellow, for through such considerations, the mind will become firmly fixed on Krishna." (Caitanya Caritamrita) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karthik_v Posted November 6, 2002 Report Share Posted November 6, 2002 It's simple, the female body is designed to give the maximum amount of pleasure to the person within that body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 No problems Debbie.Please enjoy posting here.We like you! And after all we are not these bodies,we are pure spiritual beings...part and parcels of the supreme light.All such things like male body/female body disolves in light of such knowing. joy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 The web site you have mentioned contains the complete Bhagavad Gita. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 I am not just trying to cheer you up. I sincerely believe that you did not cause any problems. The current debate is nothing to worry about. Just enjoy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Sometimes it feels good to fight. If you want somebody to fight you, you will find many in this forum. I am one of them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I will keep fighting you until you accept defeat. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 she quotes from the bhagavatam canto six, where Citraketu is instructing Shiva and Sati, "shiva could understand nicely and sati could not,(therfore she cursed him) "thus even in the higher statuses of life there is a difference in the understanding of men and women, It may be said that the understanding of a women is always inferior to the understanding of a man" " becuase they believe at once in the superiority and almightiness of the lord,and thus they offer obeisences without reservation." "for this reason ONLY women generally assemble in great number in any sort of religious function" "generally all women desire material enjoyment.They are called less intelligent becuase THEY ARE MOSTLY PRONE TO MATERIAL ENJOYMENT "(S.B 3.23.54) This is what i've been saying, women go to church more due to a natural submissivness, but they in fact are mostly prone to material enjoyment. Men are less prone to material enjoyment then women, and conversely more prone to spiritual advancement, Even sati could not understand the instructions while shiva could. this is what i have been saying, women are not as serious and able to advance as men, although also quite clearly it is stated ,as i did, that for the man or women who take up Bhakti Yoga, they are equally able to advance, their karmic differences are no longer relevent. As to what kartik said, if you do not accept the authority of Sadhu ,shastra and guru, that is your perogative, If you believe that god has nothing to do with the shastra ,that is your loss. Krishna clearly states in the gita that He is the compiler of the vedic literature,and by the vedic literature He is to be known. this is for our benefit, you may reject that advice or not, but you can only gain from the experience of the many sadhus and Guru's who have been able to experience the truth of the shastra and have directly encountered the personality of godhead through then agency of the shastra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 You still have failed to provide a single verse that confirms your statement. There is a language called sanskrit. In that language there are some books written called shastras (scriptures). Please select any particular verse from those scriptures that support your statement and post it here. Then we can begin to discuss the meaning, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 i just did, what do you not understand ? Is not saying that women are more prone to material enjoyment ,saying that men are more prone to spiritual advancement ? otherwise what is the point of saying that about women ? The point is that men are more able to extricate themselves from the mire of material enjoyment, what does that leave ? Men are more able to give up the sensual distraction available in the material world for the sake of spiritual advancement. women on the other hand are more likely to submit to authority,yet less likely to desire to give up material enjoyment for the sake of advancement. In other words more women may go to church, but more men are likely to pursue spiritual advancement sincerely, church going is not indicative of spiritual advancement, how many people go to church, say a prayer, ask for absolution from their sins,and then go out and engage in material life forgetting God until church, and on and on ? Real spiritual advancement is for those who can forsake the glitter of material enjoyment, resisting the sensual attractions and enjoyments ,instead focusing the mind on spiritual advancement. This is more difficult for women ,who are naturally more prone then men, to give in to their senses, and be materially afflicted. The quotes i gave, should help you realize these truths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 here try this from a women's point of view http://www.chakra.org/articles/2001/09/02/prabhupada.on.women/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 i just did, what do you not understand ? No, you didn't quote a single sanksrit verse from any scripture. Anyway, I won't ask you for scriptural references anymore, as it is clear you don't have any. The honest thing to do would be for your to say it is your opinion, but that is not something everyone can bring themselves to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 why should i quote sanskrit, who can read it ? did Srila Prabhupada speak to us in sanskrit , no he spoke to us in english,he quoted in sanskrit to show the text was authentic,do you need that ? so why should i quote the sanskrit for your desire, when the english is sufficient ? anyway, I'm not trying to prove anything to you, you can either gain some knowledge from what i wrote.or you can totally disregard it, the choice is yours, I do not think that quoting sanskrit somehow proves that what you are saying is more authentic then if you simply give the english translation. the sanskrit is for those who question the authenticity of the english, i'm not concerned with that, just tryin to give the reader an easy understanding of questions they may have, the average person cannot read or relate to sanskrit,and to those who can, they can find the sanskrit themselves, otherwise the english will have to suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 so why should i quote the sanskrit for your desire, when the english is sufficient ? Then please quote the english translation of any particular verse that supports your view. What you have quoted above is someone else's article, giving someone else's opinion. There are no scriptural verses cited, which would be necessary to prove your claim that the scriptures support your view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 the articles and myself have quoted from the bhagavatam, it is plainly there. what do you not see ? what is your point ? That women are not more materially prone ? that women are not more attached to material enjoyment ? that men are not better equipped to understand and follow bhakti siddhanta ? what is your point ? the verses and quotes from sri guru i gave are there, either you get it or you don't, if you want to make some point or show some reference to refute what i have allready given you ,go ahead, otherwise what is your point ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 the articles and myself have quoted from the bhagavatam, it is plainly there. I'm sorry, but there isn't a single quote from the Bhagavatam in the article you cited that supports your statement. The only verse number you cite above is incorrect, as you are citing something from a purport, not from the Bhagavatam itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagat Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 There is no such thing as a philosopher without a differing opinion. tarko'pratiSThaH zrutayo vibbhinnA nAsau munir yasya mataM na bhinnam dharmasya tattvaM nihitaM guhAyAM mahAjano yena gataH sa panthA Debate leads nowhere. The scriptures are all different. There is no such thing as a philosopher without a differing opinion. The truth of religious duty is buried away deep in a cave somewhere. The route to follow is the one that previous great souls have taken. There is the story of a fool who took "mahAjana" in the sense of "travelling merchant" and ended up following a caravan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 that men are not better equipped to understand and follow bhakti siddhanta ? This would be one of the things that I disagree with. Both men and women are equally equipped to follow the path of Bhakti and understand the perfect conclusion of devotional service. This is exactly what Lord Krishna is stating in Gita 9.32. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted November 7, 2002 Report Share Posted November 7, 2002 Prabhupada's purport to Bhagavad Gita 9.32 is relevant: It is clearly declared here by the Supreme Lord that in devotional service there is no distinction between the lower or higher classes of people. In the material conception of life, there are such divisions, but for a person engaged in transcendental devotional service to the Lord, there are not. Everyone is eligible for the supreme destination. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that even the lowest, who are called candalas (dog-eaters), can be elevated by association with a pure devotee. Therefore devotional service and guidance of a pure devotee are so strong that there is no discrimination between the lower and higher classes of men; anyone can take to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debbie Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Avinash, I am sure in anything, including religion, there is sometimes differences in opinion.It is no different than anything else,I guess. It never feels good to fight, to me, anyway.I realize sometimes this is how some people get their aggression out, but I did not come here to fight you or anyone else..I came here to learn more about finding a better understanding and path to God. As for fighting me until I accept defeat, defeat in what? Avinash, I stand up for what I believe in, but I do not feel I have to fight anyone here..OK Debbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 Debbie, There is often a gulf of difference between disagreement, debate and fight. Debate can be a very constructive means for extracting the essential purport of the scriptures. For this, of course, it is necessary that everyone engaged in the discussion understands that his/her insight may not be the ultimate, or that even it may be entirely wrong. It is astonishing how devotees, who are aspiring to be the very emblem of humility, sometimes treat each other, holding their own opinion as the highest among all. This of course draws from the idea that their opinion is the most realized purport of the scripture. In my opinion such a view is detrimental to spiritual growth, as it blocks all avenues of received wisdom from the one who sits in his lofty sandcastle of pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted November 8, 2002 Report Share Posted November 8, 2002 debbie, Please be assured that Avinash does not want to fight with you. He was being a little playful with you, by his jostling, that is why he added the smilie faces. This medium for communication is the source of many misunderstandings like that. Avinash is a good natured intellectual, and it is obvious he likes you.Of course he has me afraid to cross him,but that's another thing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif All is well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts