Fallen vs Evil

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Fallen and evil are sometimes interspersed, as if the two were synonymous. Fallen can mean that you've fallen down, (tumbled down) from your spiritual practise. There's no rising early, chanting the mala (except sometimes when you keep it under your pillow for 'old time's sake') When you're addicted to things that aren't good for your health (for devotees it could be a ploy for being taken Home soon), when you forgot that 'the world' outside (besides Nature) runs on money and you never bothered to get yourself some then you're a loser in the eyes of society and a loser in the eyes of the religionists who promote the creed that poverty equals bad karma. Even more fallen are the ones who are homeless, addicted to soul-destroying drugs and cheap wine, and bereft of the even the concept of prasadam and the glories of the holy names. Lord Caitanya's mission is to deliver the most fallen. (Junkies can't eat solid food well, perhaps orange-juice buttermilk nectar and simply wonderful sweetballs could be distributed to "those who have no hope for spiritual realization" (from the Caitanya Caritamrita), some sweet kirtan and single sheet pamplets with the holy names written in large lettering with translation. Patita Pavana, Sita Rama.

 

Then there's evil. Evil often goes to church, evil sits in high places where policy makers are willing to sacrifice hundeds of thousands of lives for the acquisition of oil fields and world domination. Evil can rise early, evil can work 18 hour days and evil in the higher echelons of world power is usually rich and gets a lot of respect. Good karma? Evil can also be in the heart of a poor man, a damaged soul (like the Gulf War veteran sniper)and to some degree in our own minds.

 

Other views on this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Haribol. Those who sincerely try and fail are different than those who do neither, rather are motivated by something else altogether. The first, IMHO, are far superior than those of evil intent.

 

However, when falling makes one so crazy that Vaisnava aparadha is committed, (Not by opinions of onlookers, but factual aparadha, and believe me, one would know), evil intent can manifest rather easily, making all the initial sincerity moot (sorry for the lawyer talk, my association lately is bad, indeed).

[Guest guest]

bhaktajoy here.

 

I fell down.No realization and no bhava and no respect for vaishnavas.Last year I was sincere at least in trying.I tasted some bliss.I think I offended many vaishnavas in my mind and words.My mind is coming between my soul and Krsna.I am suffering from bipolar disorder,depression,anxiety,emotional turmoil,bronchitis,etc.i can't even walk.

 

for 3 yrs i am constantly laying in bed.sometimes when i have post traumatic stress attacks they render me useless.thats why prabhus i need your mercy.i know krsna conciousness is the way out but i am afraid to take the first step that is surrender to guru and gauranga(god).

 

but i know suffering is due to ignorance.suffering purifies our soul.before birth we decided what will happen to us,what diseases we will face and what work like helping others and serving krsna and guru we will do.it is all planned.i know the more mistakes we make the more we learn.that's all,i have nothing more to say.please have mercy on this poor soul...please i beg you o great devotees of the lord.

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Bhakta Joy; You may be setting yourself up for no replies by asking 'the great devotees' to help you as no devotee in his/her right spiritual mind would answer to that call!

 

Seriously though, bi-polar disease is no laughing matter and I can sympathize with your situation. Have you been diagnosed with this illness, and if so what has your doctor recommended? Have you tried natural homopathic medicene? I don't know how to advise you because I'm not a physician but I do know that bi-polar is a chemical imbalance in the brain that can be helped with vitamins and minerals, (folic acid and niacin are helpful)and excercise that's not too demanding, like walking. You say you can't even get up; is this also due to depression? In my opinion your illness isn't because of offenses you 'think' you may have made towards devotees in your mind or through words because if that was true then most of us who are still neophytes on the path would be dead by now. Conversely, there are many elevated devotees who have become sick and have even died with cancers and other terrible diseases. Don't feel that you can't take shelter of the Lord by praying even more intensely for mercy, even (or especially)if you're flat out on your back. You can still read His comforting words in Bhagavad Gita and you can chant, even if you have to whisper the holy names. The mind is such a powerful thing, if you can visualize yourself as being in a healthy state, both physically and mentally and have faith that Krishna wants you to be happy, He doesn't want you to suffer in silence. Sometimes we think it's our karma to suffer, so we give in to it and accept it. On the other hand, if there seems to be nothing we can do to prevent a suffering condition then we can learn tolerance and know that it is still a temporairy condition. Whether in this lifetime or the next, we will return to our natural, blissful state where we can think of Krishna without obstructions. Don't be afraid to surrender your mind to Krishna. He is a gentle master and He loves you unconditionally, in sickness and in health, for better or for worse, never to part even in Death. May you find peace in Their all-compassionate presence.

 

[theist]

Bhaktajoy,

 

I have no mercy to offer, but I would like to echo what Bhaktyavasa has said.

 

Remember Krsna das Kaviraja.He was very ill and we are still trying to catch his mercy.

 

I have read your posts and found inspiration in them for many months now.You don't offend anyone.I am becoming fearful that if you continue thinking like this you may withdraw and stop posting.That might be an offense of a sort.

 

The mind has many tricks for us.We must be wary prabhuji.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

Oh BhaktavasyaJi, I am loving your approach today. Is it you are approaching with Miriam Mata? Thank you too much.

[Punkech]

Hare Krsna

 

Since the mind is always impure and flying here and there, even when chanting you can have evil thoughts, me I try to ignore them and carry on chanting, knowing that because of my impurity I cannot control my senses, but still sometimes the mind can be so obstinate that you think that you’ll never be purified, is this negative yes, another trick of the mind to engage you in sense gratification, or Maya I do not know, but what scares me are the thoughts which I do not want but are binded in me.

 

[leyh]

Dear Bhakta Joy:

 

Physical illness can be very demoralizing for our spiritual life. There was one time I was so sick that I vomitted in the toilet and convulsed in pain. It was only later that I realized that in my most intense pain, my mind focused only on my physical agony and I totally forgot about Krsna.

 

Still,the name of Krsna is our friend and as long as we keep opening ourself to His mercy, He will draw us back in His merciful presence. In The Way of A Pilgrim, a classic of Orthodox Spirituality by an unknown Russian pilgrim of the mid-19th century who wandered through Russia and Serbia preaching the glories of chanting the holy name of Jesus through the Prayer of Jesus ("Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me")wrote:

 

"And that is how I go about now, and ceaselessly repeat the Prayer of Jesus, which is more precious and sweet to me than anything in the world. At times I do as much as forty-three or four miles a day, and do not feel that I am walking at all. I am aware only of the fact that I am saying my prayer. When the bitter cold pierces me, I begin to say my Prayer more earnestly and I quickly get warm all over. When hunger begins to overcome me, I call more often on the name of Jesus, and I forget my wish for food. When I fall ill and get rheumatism in my back and legs, I fix my thoughts on the Prayer and donot notice the pain. If anyone harms me I have only to think, "How sweet is the Prayer of Jesus!" and the injury and the anger alike pass away and I forget it all. I have become a sort of half-conscious person. I have no cares and no interests. The fussy business of the world I would not give a glance to. The one thing I wish for is to be alone, and all by myself to pray, to pray without ceasing; and doing this, I am filled with joy. God knows what is happening to me!" (The Way of A Pilgrim, Chapter 1)

 

A Vaishnava can apply the above passage simply by substituting "Jesus" with "Krsna". The name is the same. If we simply let the name accompany us, all our problems will be solve. The name is our dear friend!

 

I'll pray for you,Bhakta Joy Prabhu. Hare Krsna!

[Guest guest]

Bhaktavasya Prabhuji Haribol!

 

I read your post and was thinking about it the whole night.

My bipolar disorder is not that serious but enough to disrupt my life.I have a tendency for such disorders since childhood.It is often caused by chemical imbalances in the system.Yes I was diagnosed but not taking any drugs.According to Ayurveda "vata" or air element when gets disturbed causes all kind of mental trouble.I denied medicine for 3 yrs...now I am taking ayurvedic.

 

I am trying walking and feel lot better!If I continue down this path I will get cured no doubt.Somehow I have got to overcome ignorance.Your have given me new hope.

 

I like doing japa in my mind,last year I felt perfect peace.I was hopoing to leave body in that state of mind but see my misfortune!Before I go I ought to do some work for Srila Prabhupada and the Lord.

 

Your words echoing in my mind again and again.I thank you from my every being.May Lord Krsna bless you my friend.see ya /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

joy

[Guest guest]

Theist Prabhuji Haribol!

 

You have a habit of making things clear!thanks for all well wishes.

 

I was expecting a reply from you.Some soul connection there?It is real I know.It is my fortune that you find inspiration in my words.Actually I got to know you by reading your posts...you emanate profound peace.

 

I will keep on posting.

 

ur servant,

joy

[Guest guest]

Leyh Prabhuji Haribol!

Hope you are fine.

 

Oh...I hear about your illness.I thank Krsna now you are better.You know all bad times will pass on by his grace...

 

What happened to you?When my illness began I vomitted day and night for 8 months.Very true that we two were focusing on pain instead of Krsna.When I thought of Krsna all suffering seemed puny.Now we have to do our part in order to return home!

 

Inspiring story!I am going to save it.It is so true.

Thanks for all your blessings!

 

joy

[Gauracandra]

Lately (since September 11) there has been a more prominent discussion of evil in the world. I think for quite some time it was considered intellectually unacceptable to say that evil exists. There was always a subtle and sometimes not so subtle subtext that we must understand the actions of so-called evil people. I think it is healthy to have clearly drawn lines of what is evil and what is not. A question in this regard. In the Christian tradition there is a personification of evil. Does this exist in any manner in Vedic thought? In particular I’m thinking of the personification of the age of Kali. Would this be a parallel?

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhakta Joy Prabhu:

 

 

I was just suffering from a fever and I already forgot Krsna. Imagine how it would be like at the time of death.

 

krishna tvadiya-pada-pankaja-panjarantam

adyaiva me visatu manasa-raja-hamsah

prana-prayana-samaye kapha-vata-pittaih

kanthavarodhana-vidhau smaranam kutas te

 

O Lord Krishna, at this moment let the royal swan of my mind enter the tangled stems of the lotus of Your feet. How will it be possible for me to remember You at the time of death, when my throat will be choked up with mucus, bile, and air? (Mukunda-mala Stotra, Text 33)

[Guest guest]

The above post was by me. I forgot to log in...again.

[Bhaktavasya]

This is so amazing, that the CONCEPT of evil cannot exist in the minds of the 'swan-like' devotees on this thread! That's what remembering, praying and wanting to be with Krishna will do for you!

 

Gauracandra; Certainly evil exists in world. You mention Lucifer as connected to the personality of Kali who was beating Mother Bhumi, heralding the the Age of Kali as defined as the age of hypocrisy and quarrel. So the Luciferian 'qualities' fit with anyone who is inflicting pain on another, lieing, and quarrelling (warring). See it live on CNN and other places. Hopefully, if we've made any spiritual progess at all we've been able to give all that up, value honesty and be careful not to cause pain to anyone by our actions and words.

 

So everyone agrees, fallen devotees (or fallen souls) doesn't equate with evil, that they are in two different worlds. Especially when they can remember Krishna even when they're flat on their backs!

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I am intersted to be seeing you are able to be editing your own postings. I am not able to be doing same. It is being one of the evils of being the guest. If guest is falling at doorsteps host will be picking up, no? But if host is falling guests must be going back home.

[theist]

Bhaktajoy,

 

Soul connection for sure.It predates the foundation of the universe and exists beyond the conception of time.

 

I don't think you have read all my posts.In truth I am a confused soul who is deeply envious of the Lord.That's no attempt to sound humble but rather a sad fact.

 

I have also experienced major depression,not bi-polar, but very debilitating.

 

I have found much help through using different amino acids to boost certain neurotranmitters.Also the herb Calamus Acorus has been of great value.Known in India as Vacha.Have you tried any of this approaches?

 

I'll post something on Calamus on the health board in a day or two.Wonderful herb.

 

Be well

[theist]

You know Bhaktyavasya, I know evil when I see it but can't really define it.Maybe somebody can.

[Gauracandra]

Ray Kroc (founder of McDonalds)

[theist]

now I get it.LOL

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Theist; Bhagavad Gita 16th chapter, divine and demoniac natures (godly and ungodly) is a good place to start (smiley face). Referring to evil in high places, here's Krishna's estimation:

 

BG 16.15: They think,"I have gained this today. This desire I shall attain fulfillment of next. This is mine, and it will increase in the future. That enemy has been slain by me and I shall slay others as well. I am the lord, I am the enjoyer. I am successful, powerful and happy. I am wealthy and of high birth. Who is equal to me? I shall give sacrifice, charity and rejoice." Thus they are deluded by ignorance.

 

As for MacDonald's, the founder is dead (his wife is apparently vegetarian but has never had the power to change the menu because of the will and control of the stockholders)and the people who eat there are ignorant but not evil. Eventually enough information and tastier alternatives will convince the masses to switch over to a less meat-dependent diet.

 

 

My comment about devotees on this thread being unable to conceive of the existence of evil must be tempered with the understanding that when we get off our keyboards and walk outside the door (or turn on the news) we know evil exists in the world, and it's refreshing to come to a place, be in a state of mind, where evil doesn't exist.

 

 

[theist]

The present owner of McDonalds is a veggie!?!?That is a trip.Reminds me of one of the heirs to a major tobacco co. was appearring on the TV to denounce the the tobacco co.s for thei evil work sometime back.Does this woman speak out,or is she afraid of hurting the bottom line?

 

I probably shouldn't get so heavy with all the evil 'out there' that I forget to deal with the evil side of myself that I keep so carefully masked.