Establishing Deities at the Yogapitha (by Bhaktivinode)

[Guest guest]

(Establishing Gaura-Visnupriya Deities at the Yogapitha)

 

In February 1891 he [bhaktivinode Thakur) gave a lecture on his investigation into the whereabouts of the actual birthsite of Sri Caitanya; his audience included highly learned men from all over Bengal, who became very enthusiastic at the news. Out of this gathering the Sri Navadvipa Dhama Pracarini Sabha was formed for spreading the glories of Navadvipa-Mayapura. That year, on Gaura Purnima, a big festival was held that witness the installation of Gaura-Visnupriya Deities at the Yogapitha. All the learned pandits, having deliberated fully on BVP's

evidence, agreed that the Yogapitha was the true birthsite of Mahaprabhu.

[raga]

 

All the learned pandits, having deliberated fully on BVP's

evidence, agreed that the Yogapitha was the true birthsite of Mahaprabhu.

 

 

I would be curious to study the evidence proposed above.

[stonehearted]

In reply to:

All the learned pandits, having deliberated fully on BVP's

evidence, agreed that the Yogapitha was the true birthsite of Mahaprabhu.

 

Madhava wrote:

I would be curious to study the evidence proposed above.

 

This looks as though it may be a quotation from the memorial hagiography of BVT, from which Achyutananda borrowed very heavily (with no attribution, which would be unacceptable for any of my students) in his introduction to a book of BVT's songs.

 

In any case, to say that "all the learned pandits" concurred in BVT's assertion seems an overstatement. Well, actually, it seems inaccurate, since BVT's own diksha guru, Bipin Bihari Goswami, strongly disagreed.

 

I teach my students that an essential element to critical thinking is to take nothing for granted, including what we hold most near and dear. I believe that devotees should, for the most part, become independent thinkers. Those with tender faith should perhpas be careful about scrutinizing recieved knowledge; however, as we progress in the land of faith, we should examine everything in the light of guru, sadhu, and shastra.

[muralidhar]

Some pundits believe the Pracin Mayapur site was the birthplace of Mahaprabhu, but we know Srila Jagannatha Das Babaji Maharaj considered the place discovered by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur to be the real Mayapur.

 

The pundits who think Pracin Mayapur is the site include the cross dresser Radhavinodini Dasi, a disciple of Charan Das Babaji. I don't know if there were any boys dressed up as girls in attendence at Mayapur when the installation ceremony was performed. I believe they would not have been welcome. Maybe Jagat can advise us.

 

I am checking, but I expect the Charan Das Babaji mentioned by Jagat must be Radharaman Charan Das Babaji. He was rejected by his Guru Srila Jagannatha Das Babaji Maharaj.

 

Jagat said:

<hr>

 

Vraja Mohan Dasji started his research in 1916. He walked all over the Dham as well as investigating the available records, including the British survey maps that had been conducted from 1757 onwards. Apparently, he was on one occasion beaten up, his sikha cut off, his mala cut and thrown naked into the Ganges by the Mayapur faction. This probably when he entered the Mayapur compound. I have myself seen the vitriolic literature written by Paramananda Brahmachari at around this time, accusing Vraja Mohan Dasji and his backers of all manner of licentiousness in an effort to discredit his efforts. This evidently did not help Bhaktivinoda Thakur's cause with Bipin Bihari Goswami.

 

At any rate, through his research Vraja Mohan pinpointed the Ramachandra Chora land as the likeliest site of Gaur Govinda Singh's temple. He proceeded to dig more than 700 holes in the ground there before finding a large piece of red sandstone that had been a part of it. He exhibited the piece of stone to an assembly of Vaishnavas and work was begun building a new temple there.

 

Even so, the effort had exhausted him and he died not long after, turning the temple service over to Charan Das's sakhibhekhi disciple Radhavinodini Dasi. The area was officially named Prachin Mayapur in 1928. The temple was turned over to Ramdas Babaji in 1953.

<hr>

[raga]

 

I am checking, but I expect the Charan Das Babaji mentioned by Jagat must be Radharaman Charan Das Babaji. He was rejected by his Guru Srila Jagannatha Das Babaji Maharaj.

 

 

I am now reading Barha Baba's (RRCDB) biography. I do not find any account of a guru-disciple relationship between him and Jagannatha Das Baba. Barha Baba received diksa from Yogendranath Gosvami of Khardaha, later known as Sankararanya Puri, in Ayodhya. He later accepted babaji vesa from Gaurahari Das Babaji, a renowned siddha-mahapurusha, who was a disciple of Jagannatha Das Babaji, and from him the name "Radha Raman Charan Das" was also received.

 

As far as cross-dressing goes, you may be interested to note that Gaura Kishora Das Baba was in very good terms with Lalita Dasi, a sakhi-bhekhi disciple of Barha Baba. This is related in Haridas Dasji's Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidhana.

[Guest guest]

 

The pundits who think Pracin Mayapur is the site include the cross dresser Radhavinodini Dasi, a disciple of Charan Das Babaji. I don't know if there were any boys dressed up as girls in attendence at Mayapur when the installation ceremony was performed. I believe they would not have been welcome.

 

 

 

If the act of dressing is making one angry, then it is being sure sign that one is not Vaishnava. Why would Vaishnava be getting cross while dressing? They are not the Nanga Babas.

[muralidhar]

Madhava,

 

In regard to Haridas Das and his writings, I understand from your friend Nitai that he told some stories about babajis and whorehouses and sodomy, but I haven't yet read Haridas Das's writings and I doubt I ever will.

 

Jagat spoke about "Charan Das's sakhibhekhi disciple Radhavinodini Dasi"

 

So you are saying that Radha Raman Charan Das babaji received vesha from Gaurhari Das Babaji, a disciple of Jagannatha Das Babaji. I understand Srila Jagannatha Das Babaji rejected Radha Raman Charan Das babaji and the sakhibekhi misconception. I have this from one source, and I am checking elsewhere.

 

This Pracin Mayapur place, it was a place of these sakhi-bhekhi persons? Is it right?

 

Some "Goswamis" have criticized Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami for putting on the saffron robes as Mahaprabhu had done. Yet they are happy to give this supposed birthplace of Mahaprabhu to a sampradaya of men who dress as women. Is it not so? These men criticize Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami for wearing saffron, but they are on very friendly terms with a group of men who wear saris!

 

I remember the first time I ever encountered these sakhi-bhekhi persons at Seva Kunja, while I was doing parikrama. I knew very little at that time, but from looking at their faces I had no doubt that those men were not austere or pious. The monkeys on the walls of Seva Kunja are real Brajabasis, not those imitation gopis of Vrindavana.

 

Murali

 

 

[Jagat]

How does what one wears have anything to do with whether one is speaking the truth?

 

Charan Das Babaji was, I can assure you, widely recognized as a great Vaishnava in the Gaudiya community. He was also recognized as such by the King of Puri and many others as well. He had many significant disciples like Ramdas who were widely recognized as advanced Vaishnavas. Even those who did not agree with their opposition to chanting the Maha Mantra in kirtan without counting still honored them. Even Bhaktivinoda Thakur had cordial relationships with Charan Das, whom he met in Puri in 1901, even though he disagreed with him.

 

The biographies of Charan Das and Ramdas describe meetings with both Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Siddhanta Saraaswati from their point of view. There is also a full defense of sakhi bhekhi in those books. Is the version you are reading complete, Madhava? The Bengali edition is six volumes of about 300 pages each.

[raga]

 

In regard to Haridas Das and his writings, I understand from your friend Nitai that he told some stories about babajis and whorehouses and sodomy, but I haven't yet read Haridas Das's writings and I doubt I ever will.

 

 

What are you talking about? Haridas Dasji dedicated his life to publishing the Gaudiya Vaishnava canon of literature. He edited and published massive amounts of previously unpublished manuscripts, and additionally collected Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidhana and Gaudiya Vaishnava Jivana, the most comprehensive encyclopaedias on Gaudiya literature adn saints ever made.

 

 

 

So you are saying that Radha Raman Charan Das babaji received vesha from Gaurhari Das Babaji, a disciple of Jagannatha Das Babaji.

 

 

This is found in his biography.

 

 

 

I understand Srila Jagannatha Das Babaji rejected Radha Raman Charan Das babaji and the sakhibekhi misconception. I have this from one source, and I am checking elsewhere.

 

 

What is the source?

 

 

 

Some "Goswamis" have criticized Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami for putting on the saffron robes as Mahaprabhu had done. Yet they are happy to give this supposed birthplace of Mahaprabhu to a sampradaya of men who dress as women. Is it not so? These men criticize Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami for wearing saffron, but they are on very friendly terms with a group of men who wear saris!

 

 

Barha Baba did have some followers who were sakhibhekhis. Himself he dressed in regular Vaishnava clothing, as do most of his followers.

 

 

 

I remember the first time I ever encountered these sakhi-bhekhi persons at Seva Kunja, while I was doing parikrama. I knew very little at that time, but from looking at their faces I had no doubt that those men were not austere or pious. The monkeys on the walls of Seva Kunja are real Brajabasis, not those imitation gopis of Vrindavana.

 

 

Let us remember that not all the sakhi-bhekhis are the same, just like not all the sannyasis or all the babajis are the same. I could extend the same to Gaudiya Math sannyasis, saying that "first time I saw some of them in Vrindavan, they looked like ________ [fill in whatever you please]". Would that be fair?

 

Nevertheless, you must be very pure to be able to judge Vrajavasis with a single glance at their face.

[raga]

 

The biographies of Charan Das and Ramdas describe meetings with both Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Siddhanta Saraaswati from their point of view. There is also a full defense of sakhi bhekhi in those books. Is the version you are reading complete, Madhava? The Bengali edition is six volumes of about 300 pages each.

 

 

I am reading the English biography by OBL Kapoor. For what I've learned, it is taken as authoritative by the followers of Charan Das Baba, and was compiled on their request. There's more in the preface on OBL Kapoor's version, but I don't have the time to type it in right now. Later today, if you are interested.

[muralidhar]

Madhava,

 

Take another look at what Nitai says on his website. He is the one who talks about babjis, whorehouses and sodomy.

 

Murali

 

 

[muralidhar]

I have been looking for some biographical information about Totarama Das Babaji who wrote the well known verse listing thirteen false sampradayas:

 

Aula, Baula, Kartabhaja, Neda, Daravesa, Sani, Sahajiya, Sakhibheki, Smarta, Jata-gosani, Ativadi, Cudadhari and Gauranga-nagari

 

 

Murali

[raga]

 

Take another look at what Nitai says on his website. He is the one who talks about babjis, whorehouses and sodomy.

 

 

Give me the URL. At any rate, I do know full well who is Haridas Dasji, having read his biography.

[muralidhar]

I posted the link, then removed it, because innocent devotee should not have to ever come in contact with a piece of slime like Jagat's friend "Nitai". Actually, my youngest son's name is Nitai and I particularly love that Name; I really do think it is ironic that this slime Neal is labelled as a servant (das) of Nityananda Prabhu.

 

If you want it, the quote is in Nitai's web zine issue four.

 

Nitai tells a story he attributes to Haridas Das, about someone hiding out in a whorehouse. If this story is really in Haridas Das's book then as far as I am concerned that will be proof positive that this Haridas Das was not the "unbiased historian" you would have us believe he is.

[raga]

I just checked it out.

 

Perhaps you are also biased? Any chance?

[muralidhar]

Am I biased? Yes, absolutely.

 

<hr>

On another topic, Madhava,

 

Do you know the chapter and verse of this verse supposedly from Padma Purana mentioned in Hari-bhakti-vilas, 8.2:

naham vasami vaikunthe, yoginam hrdayesu va mad baktah yatra gayanti, tatra tisthami narada

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said:

The Lord Himself says, "0, Narada, wherever My devotees sing my praises I cannot but be present there."

 

"Naham vasami vaikunthe - I do not live in the transcendental plane; yoginam hrdayesu va - nor in the heart of a yogi; mad bhaktah yatra gayanti - but wherever My devotees sing with most earnest heart; tatra tisthami - I present Myself there. I take My seat and hear their hearty song. Their singing and chanting carries Me from the heart of the yogi and even from the throne of My Vaikuntha. I run towards the place where the devotees chant with hearty devotion about Me: that is what really attracts Me most."

[Guest guest]

 

These men criticize Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami for wearing saffron, but they are on very friendly terms with a group of men who wear saris!

 

 

Ha ha ha /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Brilliant observation. These guys were attacking Bhaktisiddhanta saying he was not bonafide because Gaudiyas can ONLY wear white. Yet they’ll accept men wearing floral patterned, pink, with gold embroidered saris and bangles. Hilarious when you think about it. What a bunch of hypocrites.

 

 

How does what one wears have anything to do with whether one is speaking the truth?

 

 

Which is why Bhaktisiddhanta is not wrong in wearing a saffron dhoti. You guys can never use the “White cloth ONLY” argument ever again.

[raga]

 

In reply to:

 

[Murali:] How does what one wears have anything to do with whether one is speaking the truth?

 

<hr>

[Guest:] Which is why Bhaktisiddhanta is not wrong in wearing a saffron dhoti. You guys can never use the “White cloth ONLY” argument ever again.

 

 

So, what's the problem with those sarees, then?

[raga]

 

On another topic, Madhava,

 

Do you know the chapter and verse of this verse supposedly from Padma Purana mentioned in Hari-bhakti-vilas, 8.2:

naham vasami vaikunthe, yoginam hrdayesu va mad baktah yatra gayanti, tatra tisthami narada

 

 

According to Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa (eight vilasa), "padme sri-krsna-satyabhama-samvadiya-karttika-mahatmye sri-prthu-narada-samavade sri-bhagavad-uktau...". So in Karttika-mahatmya I assume, wherever that is in Padma, I have never studied this massive book. It is a peculiar fact that one hardly ever sees an exact reference to Padma Purana.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

[Murali:] How does what one wears have anything to do with whether one is speaking the truth?

 

 

 

I think this is a statement made by Jagat.

[raga]

Right, JNDas. It was Jagat, now that I checked it.

 

 

[Guest:] Which is why Bhaktisiddhanta is not wrong in wearing a saffron dhoti. You guys can never use the “White cloth ONLY” argument ever again.

 

 

Who is "you guys"? Can you tell me what either I or Jagat have said about "white cloth only", aside noting that traditional ascetics of the Gaudiya sampradaya have always worn white cloth. If you are interested, you may check out something I drafted together about the sannyasa-issue in reviewing Narayan Maharaja's writings on the same. http://www.ragadesign.com/at/gaudiya-and-sannyasa.pdf

 

I don't think the color of the cloth itself is a major issue.

 

I just came in the door. It is -5 degrees celsius outside. I am wearing blue pants, a blue shirt, a light white jacket and gray socks. Soon I will go and put on a white lungi and a white kurta, but I will keep the gray socks on. The gray socks have green stripes, and I am still not taking them off. Woe and behold, what a heretic I am! But usually I buy white socks.

 

Let people wear whatever they please. I am personally more concerned with their behavior towards other Vaishnavas. I believe the somewhat militant attitude of the Gaudiya Math towards the rest of the tradition is at the root of all critique, and if that would not have existed, probably people would not mind the saffron thing. But if you cast critique towards just about everyone besides your own group, what do you expect? People will come to point out any flaw there may exist in you.

[karthik_v]

 

The gray socks have green stripes, and I am still not taking them off.

 

 

Please take them off Raga. Those green stripes make it sound so Islamic. I am allergic to anything Islamic. It is called Islamophobia. Saffron would be fine though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[raga]

 

What do you mean Islam? Jah lives.

[muralidhar]

I look out the window and remember some words of the gentle sadhu Bob Marley

 

Sun is shining, the weather is sweet,

Makes me want to move, my dancing feet....

[karthik_v]

Raga,

 

If only you can make that green appear below saffron, it would be the perfect picture. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif