how to compromise

[syama]

Hare Krishna.

 

I need help or advice in being able to maintain faith whilst confronted with so many irrational descriptions.

 

I want to have strong Faith in Krsna Conciousness but I always wobble when confronted with mythological descriptions being presented as real.

I am not looking for statements along the lines of 'the mind, intelligence & rationality and logic can not go there so just believe and accept on the strength of the experiences which have already prooved this paths validity' I cannot just believe.

I am looking for some guidence from hopefully others who have made compromise and reconcilliation after being presented with similar difficulty. I know some of you may know me and know I am saying the same thing for over a year now but I am stuck at this point and it is so frustrating like having a cake and not able to eat it.

Any sincere help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

syama

[muralidhar]

Dear Syama,

 

I find when I am unsettled I just read Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's writings again and again. Not the deep philosophical stuff, just the easy to read things like The Bhagavat lecture and his poems and songs in Saranagati etc.

 

Sweetness, and beauty. Simple stuff. The philosophy is only there for answering questions we have in our head, but the Krsna Book of Prabhupada is for our hearts.

[raga]

 

I want to have strong Faith in Krsna Conciousness but I always wobble when confronted with mythological descriptions being presented as real.

 

 

Where would this be?

[Manni]

Hi Syama... if by that statement you mean that you find it difficult to believe in Vedic Mythology, i.e. flying monkeys, talking eagles, etc /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif then you're not alone! I went through the same thing and STILL have difficulty in taking some of it in.

 

Perhaps I can appeal to the scientist in you? There's plenty of evidence that totally refutes current thought in almost all fields of science - i'm in the field of genetics myself and am astounded at how some scientists out there have spat out the current theory of human evolution. That is not to say that they're completely wrong, but they don't totally right either! If this is the kind of stuff that you're talking about then I recommend the following books:

 

1. Forbidden Archaeology by Cremo et al.

2. Gods, Sages and Kings: Vedic Secrets of Ancient Civilisation by David Frawley.

 

If this isn't what you were talking about and i'm chatting absolute cow poo, sorry to waste your time!

 

Hare Krsna.

[syama]

Thanks for the interest raga but I am looking for a more overall mode of approach rather than adressing a single point.

For me personally I see this situation arise again and again and am hoping for someone who has a similar view but found harmony in their perspective to give a hint of how to avoid such dilemmas through a change of vision. For many years I just bypassed such things concentrating on that which I could draw meaning and faith from. But for a couple of years now I find myself in a completely different state of mind altogether and need some wise direction.

Adressing specifics will go off at tangents and lead to avenues my mind is trying to avoid, thanks for your desire to help.

[syama]

Yes it is this kind of sweetness and depth of sincere feeling that is most attractive if I could run on the fuel of the acharyas sentiments alone I would be a happy dasa but alas my heart is too far from theirs for me to be able sustain my faith on my small appreciation of their character & realisation alone, thanks Prabhu.

[syama]

No you are not talking cow doo, I do need a perspective which will allow me to accept in good faith those things which seem too far fetched to be real, but I was hoping for a perspective which allowed them to be unreal and still facilitate faith rather than trying to accept them as a reality that my ignorance disables me from being able to appreciate. I hope it is Karmic rather than genetic obstical (I wanted to put a winking smiling face there for you but don't know how to do that either)

[Mxyzptlk]

Hello Syama,

 

I can relate. Doubts can pop up at any time, and they need to be dealt with in a positive manner, otherwise, if our faith is sapped, so is our desire to follow the process of bhakti and the instructions of our Gurus. You make a valid point regarding the "mood" one should adopt. If we demand an immediate answer for every doubt as they arise, then we will be disappointed. Sometimes we'll have to wait a while for those answers. The first thing is to accept the fact that God is God, and that He can do the impossible. Just as in the story of the Brahmin and the Cobbler. Both were told that Lord Nayarana was threading an elephant through the eye of a needle. Sure sounds impossible to our finite minds. With God, however, anything is possible. Anything. So, I try to approach any doubts that I may encounter with at least a tiny drop of faith; enough faith to keep me going until the answer eventually comes. Prayer helps. As does submissive inquiry. As does experience. For instance, if you've had doubts in the past which were eventually answered, then that is something to build upon. Each time a doubt is successfully answered, then you gain that much more faith for the next doubt which may arise.

 

Manni's suggestions are good, as the books mentioned address many common doubts that devotees have encountered. I've probably had every doubt in the book, and then some. But, something deep down inside told me to keep pushing on. Sometimes we just have to put our doubts "on hold" for a while, and have faith that they will be addressed and successfully resolved in due course of time. Our minds can be our worst enemies if we let them. Chanting extra rounds is also a good approach. Instead of allowing doubts to stifle our spiritual growth, we can counter-attack by chanting the maha-mantra. Answers may appear quickly and automatically. And even if they don't, Krishna will give us the faith that there are indeed answers, and that they will indeed come. It's just that we can't force the issue. I've learned that the hard way. Faith connects us with the Infinite. So we at least have to have a particle of a drop of that faith; enough so that we don't give up the path. Then, in due course, the knowledge we are seeking and the answers we had been searching for, will be granted, usually through submissive inquiry from other devotees; but also from Supersoul from within, if we give Him half a chance by "keeping the faith."

 

I could give some personal examples from my own life if need be. But, I think I'll stop here for now, as I'm not really sure that what I've said thus far is of any help, or even relevant, for that matter.

[Manni]

i might not be able to help you with your faith but by God I can tell you how to do a smiley /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

just do a colon followed by a close-bracket...

 

easy peasy!

[Guest guest]

Hi Syama,

 

Even when it is understood that many stories in the Puranas are just that - stories meant to impart a lesson - still we are faced with Krsna lila, which we are told is not Mythical.

 

When you start to try to think about aspects of the lila and find 'justifaction' for them in logic and reason they fall apart. How to lift a mountain? How does it keep it's shape and not simply fall apart? Etc.

 

There is truth to the idea that everything cannot be accomodated by out finite minds but that is apparently not sufficient to remove your doubts. Doubts can be removed by serious and sincere practice and by good association. There is no other way for your doubts to be removed. Of course it is a given that you should look for the message in the lila - this will be most helpful for you. Krsna's protection, complete dependence on Him for his mercy, etc. - so many lessons are conveyed through the lila and they are pertinent to our everyday life and the situations we find ourselves in.

 

What is real? Are the impressions you receive from the environment through you mind and senses 'real'? Vedanta speaks of a reality beyond the mind and senses. It is not unreasonable or irrational, rather it is trans-rational - it takes up where the mind and senses leave off.

 

Practice sadhana bhakti such that you will experience for yourself tangible reality. The closer you come to Krsna the more you will find that all contradictions are resolved and polar opposites are harmonized.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

 

 

 

 

[syama]

Thanks for the good advice Audarya lila Prabhu. I am trying.

[Guest guest]

very interesting replies.

 

Once you understand the nature of this physical world,

and it's underlying mystical reality(quantum physics),

then the "impossibilities" of myth become possibilities.

 

In fact all you have to do is look around yourself, everything is mystical,magical, the world we take for granted for someone who never experienced any of it, upon hearing of such a reality might find it hard to believe.

 

"What do you mean ocean of water ? sky of blue ?

sweet fruits ? forests and cities ? impossible !"

 

The impossiblities of myth are very possible, it is our conditioned minds that are brought up in a world that is so completely mystical amd magical we can't see the forest for the trees.

 

On the quantum level a very mystical thing is occuring in order for this material world to exist ,matter itself is a tranformation of non-matter.

 

So magical occurences described in "myth" are in fact possible when all of the information of the possibilities of this world are taken into account.

 

All matter is possesed of consciousness,God's consciousness,

and it can be made to act in whatever way God desires.

The laws of nature are enforced by God,and they can be broken by God.

 

 

[syama]

Thanks for all the good replies, wise words have been said by all.

I was hoping that someone would post something along the lines of 'the ancients spoke within the boundries of their mythological conceptions but it does not reduce the deep essences of spirituality they were conveying' or 'eggazerration and spicing up stories adds to the flavour but try to take the gift and not its wrapping' I have tried and tried to view otherwise but I cannot maintain that perspective and feel quite gullable and this is a big obstical for my developement of faith. I know it is ok for me view things my way if the goal and procedure is fixed the same but I doubt my own experiances and intelligence it is so easy to become accostemed to a mode of acceptance which I feel would be insincere. So I was hoping someone with a respected devotional record would make me feel at ease about my approach or that many would say similar thing lending support to my theoretical approach.

Thankyou all for a very nice mood and a desire to lend a hand to a struggling soul.

Hare Krishna

syama

[raga]

You may find this thread interesting.

 

http://www.raganuga.com/cgi-bin/raga/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=4;t=116

[ethos]

Lord Krsna partially describes here how the soul is cheated in this world:

 

Sri Uddhava said: O supreme master, the intelligence of those dedicated to fruitive activities is certainly deviated from You. Please explain to me how such persons accept superior and inferior bodies by their materialistic activities and then give up such bodies. O Govinda, this topic is very difficult for foolish persons to understand. Being cheated by illusion in this world, they generally do not become aware of these facts.

 

Lord Krsna said: The material mind of men is shaped by the reactions of fruitive work. Along with the five senses, it travels from one material body to another. The spirit soul, although different from this mind, follows it.

 

The mind, bound to the reactions of fruitive work, always meditates on the objects of the senses, both those that are seen in this world and those that are heard about from Vedic authority. Consequently, the mind appears to come into being and to suffer annihilation along with its objects of perception, and thus its ability to distinguish past and future is lost.

 

Prabhupada's Purport: One may ask how the subtle body, or mind, gives up its connection with one physical body and enters another. Such entering and leaving of physical bodies is called birth and death by conditioned souls. One utilizes his present senses to meditate on the visible objects of this world—beautiful women, palatial estates, and so on—and similarly one daydreams about the heavenly planets described in the Vedas. As death occurs, the mind is pulled away from the objects of its immediate experience and enters another body to experience a new set of sense objects. As the mind undergoes total reorientation there is the apparent loss of one’s previous mentality and creation of a new mind, though actually the same mind is experiencing, but in a different way.

The conditioned soul is overwhelmed by the constant flow of material experience consisting of direct perception and abstract contemplation of the objects of this world. One thereby loses his transcendental memory of his relationship with God. As soon as one identifies with this world he forgets his eternal identity and surrenders to the false ego created by maya.

 

When the living entity passes from the present body to the next body, which is created by his own karma, he becomes absorbed in the pleasurable and painful sensations of the new body and completely forgets the experience of the previous body. This total forgetfulness of one’s previous material identity, which comes about for one reason or another, is called death.

[ethos]

O most charitable Uddhava, what is called birth is simply a person’s total identification with a new body. One accepts the new body just as one completely accepts the experience of a dream or a fantasy as reality.

 

Prabhupada's Purport: Identification with one’s material body surpasses the mere affection and attachment one feels for the bodies of relatives or friends. The word sarva-bhavena here shows that one totally accepts the material body to be oneself, just as one completely accepts the experience of a dream as real. Mere imagination without practical action is called a daydream; the mental concoction that occurs in a sleeping state is called a dream. Our identification with our own body and our blind acceptance of bodily relationships as permanent constitute a prolonged form of dreaming or fantasy in which one imagines oneself to be separate from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The term birth, therefore, does not refer to the generation of a new entity but to the blind acceptance by the spirit soul of a new material body.

 

Just as a person experiencing a dream or daydream does not remember his previous dreams or daydreams, a person situated in his present body, although having existed prior to it, thinks that he has only recently come into being.

 

Because the mind, which is the resting place of the senses, has created the identification with a new body, the threefold material variety of high, middle and low class appears as if present within the reality of the soul. Thus the self creates external and internal duality, just as a man might give birth to a bad son.

 

Prabhupada's Purport: The wealth, beauty, strength, intelligence, fame and detachment of different bodies are considered to be excellent, normal or inferior according to the material situation. The spirit soul acquires a particular body and thus judges himself and others to be high, middle or low class according to their material situation. Actually, the eternal soul exists beyond material duality but falsely mistakes the material situation to be his own. The words asaj-jana-k§d yath¢ are significant. A father may by nature be peaceful, but because his bad son gets into trouble the father is forced to defend his son and consider his son’s enemies to be enemies of the entire family. Thus the bad son implicates the father in troublesome conflicts. Similarly, the spirit soul has no intrinsic problems, but by creating a false identification with the material body the soul becomes involved in the happiness and distress of the body. With this verse the Lord summarizes His discussion of the difference between the body and the soul.

 

My dear Uddhava, material bodies are constantly undergoing creation and destruction by the force of time, whose swiftness is imperceptible. But because of the subtle nature of time, no one sees this.

 

The different stages of transformation of all material bodies occur just like those of the flame of a candle, the current of a river, or the fruits of a tree.

 

Prabhupada's Purport: The wavering flame of a candle sometimes waxes brightly and again becomes weak. Finally it vanishes altogether. The waves of a flowing river rise and fall, creating innumerable shapes and patterns. The fruits of a tree gradually take birth, grow, ripen, sweeten and eventually rot and die. Similarly, one can easily understand that one’s own body is undergoing constant transformation, and that the body is certainly subject to old age, disease and death. At different times of life the body exhibits degrees of sexual potency, physical strength, desire, wisdom and so on. As the body grows old, physical strength diminishes, but one’s knowledge may increase even as the body undergoes such transformation.

Material birth and death occur within the realm of segmented time. The birth, creation or production of a material object immediately connects it with a segmented sequence of subtle time within the material world. Thus its destruction or death is inevitable. The irresistible force of time moves so subtly that only the most intelligent can perceive it. Just as the candle flame gradually diminishes, as the flowing currents move within the river or as fruits gradually ripen on a tree, the material body is steadily moving toward inevitable death. The temporary body should therefore never be confused with the eternal, unchanging spirit soul.

[ethos]

Although the illumination of a lamp consists of innumerable rays of light undergoing constant creation, transformation and destruction, a person with illusory intelligence who sees the light for a moment will speak falsely, saying, “This is the light of the lamp.” As one observes a flowing river, ever-new water passes by and goes far away, yet a foolish person, observing one point in the river, falsely states, “This is the water of the river.” Similarly, although the material body of a human being is constantly undergoing transformation, those who are simply wasting their lives falsely think and say that each particular stage of the body is the person’s real identity.

 

A person does not actually take birth out of the seed of past activities, nor, being immortal, does he die. By illusion the living being appears to be born and to die, just as fire in connection with firewood appears to begin and then cease to exist.

 

Impregnation, gestation, birth, infancy, childhood, youth, middle age, old age and death are the nine ages of the body.

 

Although the material body is different from the self, because of the ignorance due to material association one falsely identifies oneself with the superior and inferior bodily conditions. Sometimes a fortunate person is able to give up such mental concoction.

 

By the death of one’s father or grandfather one can surmise one’s own death, and by the birth of one’s son one can understand the condition of one’s own birth. A person who thus realistically understands the creation and destruction of material bodies is no longer subject to these dualities.

 

Prabhupada's Purport: The Lord has described the nine stages of the material body, beginning with impregnation, gestation and birth. One may argue that a living entity cannot remember his presence in the mother’s womb nor his birth and early infancy. The Lord therefore states here that one can experience these phases of bodily existence by studying one’s own child. Similarly, although one may hope to live forever, by experiencing the death of one’s father, grandfather or great-grandfather, one has definite proof that the material body will die. A sober person, knowing the soul to be eternal, therefore gives up false identification with the temporary, unreliable body and takes shelter of the devotional service of the Lord. By this process one can escape the artificial imposition of birth and death.

 

One who observes the birth of a tree from its seed and the ultimate death of the tree after maturity certainly remains a distinct observer separate from the tree. In the same way, the witness of the birth and death of the material body remains separate from it.

 

An unintelligent man, failing to distinguish himself from material nature, thinks nature to be real. By contact with it he becomes completely bewildered and enters into the cycle of material existence.

 

Made to wander because of his fruitive work, the conditioned soul, by contact with the mode of goodness, takes birth among the sages or demigods. By contact with the mode of passion he becomes a demon or human being, and by association with the mode of ignorance he takes birth as a ghost or in the animal kingdom.

[ethos]

Just as one may imitate persons whom one sees dancing and singing, similarly the soul, although never the doer of material activities, becomes captivated by material intelligence and is thus forced to imitate its qualities.

 

Prabhupada's Purport: Sometimes people are captivated by professional singers and dancers and imitate within their minds the musical rhythms and melodies of the performers along with their romantic, humorous or heroic emotions. People sing songs heard on the radio and imitate dances and dramatic performances seen on television or in movies and theaters, entering into the emotions and art of the performer. The conditioned soul is similarly captivated by the concoctions of the material mind and intelligence, which convince him that he can become the enjoyer of the material world. Although different from the material body and never the actual performer of its activities, the conditioned soul is induced to engage his body in material activities, which entangle him in the cycle of birth and death. One should not accept the illicit propositions of material intelligence, but rather should engage himself fully in the service of the Lord in Krsna consciousness.

 

The soul’s material life, his experience of sense gratification, is actually false, O descendant of Dasarha, just like trees’ appearance of quivering when the trees are reflected in agitated water, or like the earth’s appearance of spinning due to one’s spinning his eyes around, or like the world of a fantasy or dream.

 

For one who is meditating on sense gratification, material life, although lacking factual existence, does not go away, just as the unpleasant experiences of a dream do not.

 

Therefore, O Uddhava, do not try to enjoy sense gratification with the material senses. See how illusion based on material dualities prevents one from realizing the self.

 

Even though neglected, insulted, ridiculed or envied by bad men, or even though repeatedly agitated by being beaten, tied up or deprived of one’s occupation, spat upon or polluted with urine by ignorant people, one who desires the highest goal in life should in spite of all these difficulties use his intelligence to keep himself safe on the spiritual platform. (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.22.35-59)

[Guest guest]

syama, you say your doubts about the authenticity

of the shastric histories cause your faith to

be shaken somewhat, is this correct ?

 

what is the problem ?

 

The stories whether taken as real actual events, or metaphor, have impact.

 

In fact they can and should be taken to be both.

 

Faith in what ?

 

What aspect of your faith is disturbed ?

[syama]

I was seeking encouragement rather that being pinned to certain points.

 

Many things in this path are appealing and I can embrace them wholeheartedly but at the same time many things no matter how hard I try I cannot embrace them for these things I cannot or do not feel comfortable with and faith is required to accept or bypass them.

 

Take for example the nrsimha incarnation and prahlada pastime the messages conveyed are very pleasing to my heart & intelligence / taking the story as a history and the incarnation as a fact and the modes of worship and ritual as neccesarry needs faith.

The first part I find encouraging and second part discouraging.

Without seeking to be convinced of the second parts validity I was hoping to find a way of reconciling such dillemmas without dependency on faith.

By the way this is only an example I am not writing here to be convinced about nrsimadeva.

 

I hope I have made myself clear to you shiva

[raga]

 

I was seeking encouragement rather that being pinned to certain points.

 

 

I wish to therefore encourage you, and tell you that there is nothing bad or condemnable in the way you feel and think, although someone may claim so. It is a very natural part in the evolution of an intelligent-minded person such as yourself. It may take a long time until we will attain the comfort of heart resulting from perfectly comprehending and reconciling everything (and it is also very possible that the truth is flexible), and in the meantime we may try to focus our mind and heart on that which is essential and nourishing for devotion.

[Guest guest]

Allrightythen !

 

Yes your dilemma is probably a common one.

 

one of the reasons that shastric descriptions are as they are, is to create a mental construction ,a spiritual

reality.

 

The transcendental mental creation that the shastra creates in the mind of the devotee is considered to be,transcendental !

 

It enables the devotee to enter into the eternal ecstatic

reality, taking him/her away from the temporal mundane

consciousness of the conditioned person.

 

While many descriptions seem fantastic,you must realize that for God, this world is a canvas ,and anything God desires can be painted on it.

 

In this day and age we have been conditioned to be "rational", translation-dependent on the imperfect senses to decide what is possible.

 

The shastra destroy's this so called "rationality", insisting that our senses are not perfect, our minds are

conditioned and reality is not always as it appears.

 

To the "rational" person, there is no God, why ? he cannot see God,therefore there is no God.

He cannot see or hear or touch something, therefore

rationally he cannot accept it.

 

this is due to his dependence on the authority of his mind and senses,and other limitations of intellect.

 

The shastra gives us knowledge unincumbered by the rationalist mindset.

Due to the faith of the devotee in the power and ability

of God, he can accept the shastra becuase he is not dependent on his limited experience of what is possible.

 

even the quantum physicists are telling us the same, what we can see with our eyes,and appears to be reality, is in fact upon a deeper investigation, different then what it appears to be to our senses when that is all we are dependent on.

 

The earth appears to be still,yet we know it is spinning very fast,and moving very fast through space.

 

The truth is stranger then fiction.

[syama]

Hare Krishna,

I wrote a reply that was not needed and did not produce anything helpful so I deleted it.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[syama]

I used to think that shastra was an expansion of lila but now I am not so faithfilled and think that lila is perhaps analogious of shastra, I remember reading once in TLC that prabhupada had said that sometimes the subjects discussed in the vedas were difficult for ordinary persons to understand and so sometimes they were explained in terms of stories in the puranas which were considered supplementry vedic litratures and also at the beginning of the bhagavatama where he states 'even if irregularly composed' I think subtly these statements and others have led me believe that poetic license has been granted to convey spiritual essences and it is that which is the important substance and there is no need for me to have faith in the historical validity of mythological stories or there is no need for me to develope a philosophical justification or understanding for accepting these accounts as long as I try to understand the spiritual points they convey.