Bondage In Vaishnavism

[Guest guest]

There was a post on bondage in advaita that did not go far. I would like to start a discussion on the cause bondage in vaishnavism.

 

Why does a jiva get into bondage inspite of it being brahman ?

[raga]

Bondage is beginningless.

 

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Mandukyopanisad 1.16 states:

 

anAdi mAyayA supto yadA jIva prabudhyate

ajam anidram asvapnam advaitaM budhyate tadA

 

“When the jIva wakes from sleep which is caused by the beginningless illusion or ignorance, then he realizes that he is unborn, and free of sleep, dreams, and dualism.”

 

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Bhagavad-gita 13.20 states:

 

prakRtiM puruSaM caiva

viddhy anAdI ubhAv api

vikArAMz ca guNAMz caiva

viddhi prakRti-sambhavAn

 

“You should know that both the material nature and the living entities are beginningless, and the consequent transformations of the three modes of nature are born of material nature too.”

 

Visvanatha comments on this verse:

 

mAya-jIvayor-api mac-chaktitvena anAditvAt tayoH saMzleSo’py anAdir iti bhAvaH

 

“The material energy and the living entities, being My energies, both are beginningless, and their mutual embrace is also beginningless.”

 

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VedAnta SUtra 2.1.35 states:

 

na karmAvibhAgAd iti cen nAnAditvAt

 

“If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality seen in the world, arguing that everyone had the same karma at the beginning of creation, this is not true because karma is beginningless.”

 

Baladeva VidyAbhuSaNa comments on this sUtra:

 

karmaNaH kSetrajJAnAM ca brahmavad anAditva- svIkArAt. pUrva-pUrva-karmAnusareNottarottarakarmaNi pravarttanAt na kiJcid dUSaNam smRtiz ca:

 

puNya-pApAdikaM viSNu karyet pUrvakarmaNA

anAditvAt karmaNaz ca na virodhaH kathaJcana

 

karmaNo’nAditvenAnAvasthA tu na doSaH prAmANikatvAt.

 

“VyAsa has accepted that karma and the jIvas are beginningless, just like Brahman. Thus there is no fault, because subsequent karma is inspired by the past karma. The SmRti confirms this:

 

‘Lord ViSNu makes the living entities do good or bad acts according to their past karma. There is no contradiction in this because karma has no beginning.’

 

If someone objects, that if karma is beginningless, then it has the defect of infinite regress, we say that is not so, because the scriptures say so.”

 

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Jiva Gosvami also describes these two categories in his ParamAtma-sandarbha (47):

 

tadevamananta eva jIvAkhyAs taTasthAH zaktayaH. Tatra tAsAM vargadvayam. Eko vargo’nAditaH eva bhagavadunmukhaH, anyas tvanAditaH eva bhagavat- parAGmukhaH-svabhAvatastadIya jJAna-bhAvAt tadIya-jJAnAbhAvAcca.

 

“In this way the marginal energies called jIvas are unlimited. They have two classes. One class is devoted to the Lord beginninglessly (anAdi) and the other is not devoted to the Lord beginninglessly (anAdi). This is because the former class of jIvas naturally have knowledge of the Lord and the second class of jIvas naturally do not have knowledge of the Lord.”

 

He repeats the same in his Priti-sandarbha (1):

 

atha jIvazca tadIyo’pi tajjJAna-saMsargAbhAva-yuktatvena tan-mAyA-parAbhUtaH sannAtma-svarUpa-jJAna-lopAn-mAyA-kalpitopAdhyAvezAc-canAdi-saMsAra- duHkhena sambadhyate iti paramAtma-sandarbhAdAveva nirUpitam asti.

 

“Although the jIva is part of the Lord, he is devoid of knowledge about Him and this deficiency has no beginning. Because of this he is covered by mAyA. This being so, he is united with the beginningless material miseries because the knowledge of his svarUpa is covered and he is absorbed in the upAdhis, designations, created by mAyA. This was explained in the ParamAtma-sandarbha.”

 

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The Bhagavata (3.7.10) states:

 

yad arthena vinAmuSya puMsa Atma-viparyayaH

pratIyata upadraSTuH sva-ziraz chedanAdikaH

 

“Thus the living entity, acting in meaningless ways, lives in misapprehension over his real identity, just like a man who observes his own head being cut off.”

 

Visvanatha comments:

 

tatra bhagavataH pRSTha-sthitayA anAdyavidyayA tamaH svarUpayA anAdi-vaimukhya-rUpa-bhagavat-pRSThasthAnAM jIvAnAM jJAnam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvaM kAraNaM nApi prayojanaM kim apy asti.

 

“Avidya (ignorance), which is anadi, is situated on the backside of the Lord and has the nature of ignorance. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the backside of the Lord and are non-devotees. Their non-devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered.”

 

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[Guest guest]

So the change from being nitya baddha to nitya siddha only happens through the grace of the Lord and his representitive-- yes?

How can one be eternally bound? For that would give no hope of returning to Godhead. So when one awakens to realize their eternally perfected swarup, do they then become liberated from their bondage and act on their realization as servant of the Lord?

[theist]

Great question.

[Guest guest]

 

It has alot to do with realization.

 

when you are in material bondage,or material consciousness,

you have no vision of eternal ecstacy, just

the opposite, eternal bondage of some sort, either

eternal death or eternal loss of individuality

for the advaitans and some buddhists.

 

One need not realize his eternal swarupa to be situated

in the eternal liberated position, that is attained

upon realization of the soul as the eternal part and parcel of God, eternally dependent , and eternally individual in an eternal relationship with the supreme.

that is true release from material bondage or consciousness,the realization of one's eternal rasa

in a relationship with God is part of that realization.

 

As individual souls destined for the augmentation

of the pleasure of God, as servants of the pleasure of God,

we are situated in our eternal rasa.

 

whatever body we are in, is then engaged in the eternal

service of that pleasure and can be considered "spiritual",

sometimes different bodys are used at different times, devotees may incarnate for different lilas,in different bodies.

It is the attitude and mentality that is all important.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

anAdi mAyayA supto yadA jIva prabudhyate

ajam anidram asvapnam advaitaM budhyate tadA

 

“When the jIva wakes from sleep which is caused by the beginningless illusion or ignorance, then he realizes that he is unborn, and free of sleep, dreams, and dualism.”

 

 

There will be a difference in meaning if we take this verse to refer to the maya-shakti

as beginningless (which the Gita verse also refers to) as opposed to the individual jiva's illusionary state as being beginningless.

[Guest guest]

Then our false conditioned and bound state is not really nitya. For their must be an origin to this attitude of enjoyment instead of service. Is it that as we choose to come to this side of exploitation from the brahmajhoti, it appears that this is the only way we have ever been. But for that to change by the grace of God or his devotee we have to wake up, then the realization of our eternality is enabled, making it then, the reality who we really are and we become joyfully immersed in that consciouness as though there never was anything else. Then we start working on getting used to this identity by engagement that enhances our eternal personality in whatever form we may find ourselves?

Another question that plagues me at times is how do we become a better person? Because even with this realization it appears we can still be quite undeveloped in those qualities that make a beautiful irresistable person to be around. afully developed soul ornamented with the the special traits of a pure heart, because sometimes we see some people with very wonderful qualities yet they don't have a clue about any of this knowledge.

[Somesh Kumar]

 

Because even with this realization it appears we can still be quite undeveloped in those qualities that make a beautiful irresistable person to be around. afully developed soul ornamented with the the special traits of a pure heart, because sometimes we see some people with very wonderful qualities yet they don't have a clue about any of this knowledge.

 

 

yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana

sarvair gunais tatra samasate surah

harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna

mano-rathenasati dhavato bahih

 

 

"One who has unflinching devotion for the Personality of Godhead has all the good qualities of the demigods. But one who is not a devotee of the Lord has only material qualifications that are of little value. This is because he is hovering on the mental plane and is certain to be attracted by the glaring material energy." (Bhag. 5.18.12)

[Guest guest]

Okay that's close, but the question is still how does one get unflinching devotion to God to increase all those pious qualities, if you don't have that inclination to serve or engage in sadhana to start with, Faith is not inherit in everyone it has to be developed especially in a world where conflicting faiths are are doing the most abomitable heinous activies and killing each other to defend that so called faith. Where will the real Grace come from if you don't naturally have it. To draw grace you've got to show you are worthy to attract a benediction to start with, and if ones nature is immersed in ignorance, then it seems help is needed from outside yourself, of course it's a gradual process becoming a real devotee, but how does one turn a bad trait into it's opposite like greed into charity, exploitation into service, hatred into compassion, intolerance into forbearance, pride into humility, cruelty into kindness, lust into divine love, revenge into forgiveness etc?

[Somesh Kumar]

Krishna has the answer for this as well..

 

Udhdhred atmana aatmaanam

naatmaanam vasadayed,

aatmaiva aatmane bandhur,

aatmaiva ripuraatmana.

 

Krishna says to Arjuna and through him to all of us that "You have to conquer your mind(lower mind) using mind (higher mind - which is actually Paramatma - upadrshta, anumanta)

 

And then He continues that mind is itself the greatest enemy or friend of the person depending on whether the lower mind has been conquered by the higher mind or not.

 

So, the first step towards acheiving that is conquering the lower mind and that can be done by keeping the mind engaged in Krishna (man mana bhava)..

 

To get the unflinching devotion really requires the mercy of Krishna and mercy of Krishna depends on devotion...

 

As Krishna says:

 

tesham satata yuktaanaam,

bhajataam priti purvakam,

daddhami buddhi yogam tam,

yena maam upaayanti te.

 

To those who are engaged in my devotion constantly (if it's not constant at start, even if a person tries sincerely) to him I give them the knowledge by which he'll come to Me!

[Guest guest]

I can understand how the mind can be the worst enemy or best friend and we need it's intelligence on side to help us conquer our lower anarthas like lust and anger, illusion etc. That's quite clear.

 

I've never heard the Paramatma referred to as the 'higher mind' where does this conception come from, is this your own understaning or is this expressed in scripture

somewhere?

My understanding of Paramatma is purely spiritual not on the subtle plane of the mind I was under the impression that paramatma is more passive, observing the activities of the atma, like two birds in the same tree. One acting the other observing.

 

So if the mercy of Krsna descends through devotion, this is what I am asking how do we aquire that devotion if it is previously inactive. Then again I have heard Caitanya Mahaprabhus mission is one of causeless mercy, that even though we may not deserve it He is giving it out regardless of merit.

Still even though I may have been engaged in this process of chanting and Krsna consciousness for some time I remain bereft of these pious qualities that make up a good person or devotee, my lower nature is sort of like a deep rooted wisdom tooth that just won't let go. Still I remain arrogant and proud of my knowledge, intolerant of others conceptions, self centred and insecure, with very little honor for others, but always looking for others to recognize me. Like the false ego is running my life. Far from the pure person I am suppose to be, engaging in the wellfare of others.

I would just like to know how all these lower traits can practicly change. Because when I look around in the world today I see a lot of people under this unfortunate spell, and it would be hopeful if there were something I could do to help, if only in being a better person, to be there as a friend for others in need.

 

I know many devotees of Krishna are doing what they can to relieve others but it seems that even they have so many personal conflicts. So I suppose I could ask why do devotees even remain bound in their conditioned blocks even though they may be doing so much to get free. Perhaps the answer is insincerity, so then how do we become totally sincere so that no illusion can cheat us, anymore. To want nothing less than the Absolute.

[Guest guest]

 

so you ask how does one attain the desire to try

and attain a higher state, the pure state ,or devotional

state of suddha-bhakti ?

 

this is described as a result of exhausting the exploitative desire and dominating mentality.

 

After many ,many births Krishna says ,the soul exhausts

the self defeating mentality and becomes receptive

to the transcendental message of Godhead.

 

It is in the jivas own best self interest to follow

the path laid down by Krishna, this realization

gives the jiva impetus to engage in Bhakti yoga,

which is described as being like a furnace that burns

all previous bad qualities away, leaving only the pure

gem like qualities which are the natural characteristics of all souls, being part and parcel

of the all perfect supreme Personality of Godhead.