Christianity

[Christian]

Hey, how is everybody? Well, I think by now it is pretty obvious I'm a Christian. My faith won't change, but I've got some questions to ask you that should make you think?

If we can work to god on our own through works, knowledge, and devotion, why do we need a god? Shouldn't the god be saving you, after all, he's perfect. That's what a god is. Obviously you aren't monotheistic, but how can you have more than one god? A god is all powerful. If you have a little god, and then you have Krishina, then the little god isn't even worthy of being a god. It doesn't make sense. I believe that nobody can earn their way to heaven, or nirvana, on their own or with any human's help. We need a god. We can't be perfect. Please, if you need help, pray to God, (not Krishina or any other god) and ask him to save you. Jesus came to die for our sins. If you can ever get a copy of The Holy Bible in India, please read John 3:16. I know I'm not being very tolerant. And by not being tolerant, I may not sound loving. I'm writing this message in love, not to prove that you are wrong. Jesus came in love, he didn't come in pride, he was weak and humble, but he was the most powerful man to ever walk the earth. If this is hard to understand, pray to God and ask him for help. God knows your heart. He knows everything you've done wrong. Just admit it to him and ask for him to forgive you. I'm just a kid. But I know that what I feel is joy, and you can feel it too. If you don't know how, just think what your heart is saying and tell it to God. You don't have to go through any special ceremonies or be in a special place. Say it out loud or in your head. God hears it either way. God loves you, and I want to love you as much as he does (though because I'm human, it won't happen). Well, that's all. GB

[Guest guest]

Thank you kindly for your advice Christian, we need all the help we can get from all honest servants of God stick around and you might find there is a lot of devotees who love both Jesus and you here, and there may even be some that love Krishna too. With your sincere help we may all improve our spiritual lives and you also may learn something from them.

Peace be with you.

A fellow aspirant.

[Guest guest]

 

so in short your message is " i am god's messenger

all you need is to accept jesus as God, then your good to go".

 

thats real deep my brother, got any more pearls of wisdom

you want to share with us heathens ?

 

I know you must have studied all the worlds philosophies

concerning God, and that you have personally spoken

with God, so i know you can't possibly be mistaken.

[theist]

Christian,

 

You made some good points that are worthy of discussion. You also showed some misconceptions of your own. For instance most of the people that post here are monotheistic.

 

From your post I got the impression that dialogue wasn't really your intent on posting. Perhaps I'm wrong. If I am wrong let me know and we can have a conversation.

 

Praise Jesus and the Father(who we call Krishna)

[Guest guest]

Where are the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Indonesians, Thais, Iranians, Iraquis, Sri Lankans, Thaiwanese Icelanders, Fins, Egyptians, South Africans, Israylis, Turks, Libyans, Morrocans, Portuguese, Kiwis, Papuans, Mexicans, Brazilians, Columbians, Arginenians, Zulus, Irish Welsh, Masais, Ugandans, Phillipinos, Pygmies, and Eskimos?

I ask you, when are they coming to the party?

They are welcome.

[ethos]

Christian, You may be in illusion––and crazy enough to admonish your superiors.

 

"Hey, how is everybody? Well, I think by now it is pretty obvious I'm a Christian. My faith won't change... "

 

If you can't change your faith, then you have a poor fund of knowledge, you are mislead by the public, and/or you can't get beyond you bodily identifications and attachments. If you can't appreciate a rich culture embued with devotion, then you are being superficially sectarian and egocentric. You think spiritual joy is limited only to Christianity? You can find it throughout the world as practiced by different beliefs and cultures. Anyone who actually loves God would recognize and appreciate other people attempting to do the same. Logically, sincere candidates would appreciate the intimate descriptions of God's person and pastimes found only in the Vedic literatures too. Gold is where you find it. Spiritual science is found in India. If you bother to investigate this objective claim you will find it's true.

 

"If we can work to god on our own through works, knowledge, and devotion, why do we need a god? Shouldn't the god be saving you, after all, he's perfect. That's what a god is."

 

You can't fool us into thinking you know who and what God is. You can't even refer to Him with proper grammer. God is saving us by revealing His nature; His likes and dislikes. He expounds the mystic yoga of Bhagavad-gita and enacts His unparalleled pastimes to attract us. It is our misfortune not to understand these things.

 

God is giving all kinds of signs for you, but what signs are you making? "God, I accept You. Come take me away and enjoy my good company!" What if some wino on the street says, "I accept you. Come take me away and enjoy my good company"? Birds of a feather flock together. God, being the most pure, is difficult to attain since you have to have compatable qualities to associate with Him. It is our committment to prescribed duties, knowledge and devotion that trains and elevates our consciousness to be sensitive to the will of God and homogenous in His presence. Just making demands or awaiting infinite mercy is not positive activity. Rather, it is the activity of lazy fools.

 

"Obviously you aren't monotheistic, but how can you have more than one god? A god is all powerful. If you have a little god, and then you have Krishina, then the little god isn't even worthy of being a god. It doesn't make sense."

 

Now you are confirming your ignorance of God. Why would God be limited to expanding Himself as many times as He likes? He already has an all-pervading body and He has expanded into infinite jiva souls like ourselves. Why can't He have personal expansions befitting the title of Godhead?

 

Perhaps the little gods mentioned by you are what we call demigods. They are simply empowered administrators of universal affairs that dutifully exercise management. That's all. Any government or powerful person has these gophers. They are not gods from God's perspective. They are simply entrusted servants or qualitified representatives carrying out Krsna's orders.

 

"I believe that nobody can earn their way to heaven, or nirvana, on their own or with any human's help. We need a god. We can't be perfect."

 

The idea is that you follow God's laws out of a sense of duty and devotion. By doing so, you hope to intice God to review or change His attitude towards you, to attract God's attention and mercy. It takes individual effort and commitment to practice these higher principles when our natural human nature is simply to pursue self-aggradizement. If you take one step towards Him, He will take 3 towards you. It is this submissive positive activity that makes Him notice. You don't just tell God what to think or how He can serve you. Krsna is not so foolish or cheap that He can be manipulated by a simple profession of words. You have to practically demonstrate your usefulness.

 

We all apprentice ourselves to people in any field or study who have the knowledge in an effort to understand what they do––even if they aren't gods. We learn from those who know. Spiritual life expands your ability to know the quality and purpose of everything, and that too is best learned from a guru.

 

You display a lack of comprehending even the simplest concepts. Why bother taking help from others in Christianity or affirming what they believe? After all they are just men. Why not just provoke God's mercy and power with your rightheous words and return to heaven? What are you waiting for? But you can't act––it is all just talk.

 

The chiding you finish your message with is rather childish considering the nature and qualities of this board's participants. Seek knowledge and you may find it. Otherwise you will be revealed a charlatan by those who actually know.

 

There are many here willing to administer your ignorance if you display a little more awareness of your own limitations and stop trying to make them subject to your inadequate system.

 

You should know your opponent before you engage him. I took the time to say what almost anyone on this board could have said. You have been answered.

 

Now answer this critique on Christianity and practically demonstrate your better understanding with action of rebuttal:

 

Click on spiritual discussions above to go back to topic index. Then in the bottom right hand of the page below the listings do a search with "on christianity". You will see several search results. Click on "Bhaktivenoda Thakura on Christianity". It may be forth from the top. Please read and reply. This is your chance to justify your faith with your own realizations and convince others. You will find these participants receptive to truth. We shall see to what degree you possess it.

 

"... but I've got some questions to ask you that should make you think?"

 

Your questions make us think how little Christians know about what they're talking about.

[Guest guest]

u know one thing christian.. u r praying to a human beings

it didn't make sense how can a human pray a another human

is that stupid thing all the christians are doing..

[Guest guest]

First fo all you speak with pride and ignorance not love.

Second of all you make some incorrect assumptions about Hinduism. God does save you when you surrender. Surrender happens thorough devotion. Not a complicated formula for your Christian mind.

Third of all, this is to all Xtians in the world. There is no such thing as Satan or the Devil. It's Christian mythology. It doesn't exist. So stop preaching it. It's absolutely nonsensical.

Fourth of all, everyone who doesn't surrender to Jesus is not going to hell you fools. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You present actions determine you future life/body. It's called Karma.

 

Lastly, Hinduism is the one and true religion of the world. If you actually did some accurate and objective research into the world's Philosophies and Religions you would of figured this much out. Unfortunately you didn't so try again.

[theist]

..nothing like a good dose of sectarian bickering. But why not, that's why God made the material world.

 

To some on this thread from both camps.Here is an assignment for you. Get your dictionaries out and look up the word rapport. It's essential to sharing knowledge from one person to another. If that is really the goal that is.

[AncientMariner]

 

 

One of the things I really like about Krishna Consciousness is that you don't have to live your life in fear of burning in hell forever. If you fall down from the devotional platform and take birth in the material world again any devotion you have performed in a past life will be the starting point of your next physical embodiement. Even the smallest amount of devotion goes a very long way in saving you from repeated births in the material world. That being said it is healthy to fear the material world to some extent because it keeps you alert to the constant danger in the material world.

[leyh]

Dear Christian:

 

I hope you are well! In your post, you wrote:

 

Obviously you aren't monotheistic, but how can you have more than one god? A god is all powerful. If you have a little god, and then you have Krishina, then the little god isn't even worthy of being a god. It doesn't make sense.

 

Your statement denying the monotheism of Krsna Consciousness is a clear indication of your lack of understanding regarding Krsna.To be qualified to make a statement like this, you must first understand Krsna. You should be able to perfectly reproduce Krsna's philosophy at least in its most basic form as found in Bhagavad-gita. Have you attempted any serious research on Krsna? If you have not, then you have no platform to designate Krsna to the role of a "little god." Also, without any authorized knowledge of Krsna, you have no platform to assess His position as God.

 

In other words, before stating categorically that Krsna is not God, you need to understand Krsna. Otherwise, your assessment is invalid.Would the statements of a person untrained in science be counted as authoritative if he tried to make scientific commentary? Understand first, then criticize. It is absurd to make statements about things or persons which you have no real understanding of.

 

Having tried to explore the Christian faith as a "Christian" (the word is after all a human designation), I have nothing but reverence for Jesus Christ. I can understand your enthusiasm in preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but please bear in mind these words from Shakespeare: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Shakespeare's Hamlet IV 174-175).The Vedic culture is very ancient and it might profit us if we investigate it instead of dismissing it on sentiment.

 

I think that if you attempt to seriously understand the Krsna Consciousness philosophy, you will find that it is the master key which can unlock all the apparent contradictions between the great world religions and it is a universal non-sectarian programme to promote love for God all over the world. Please think over what I have just said --- not sentimentally, but with logic and reason. I hope I have not offended you with my choice of words and I sincerely hope to hear from you again.

 

[ethos]

Leyh, Nice response.

 

Christian, I know most of us hold Jesus Christ as a pure devotee. And we can appreciate the supreme sacrifice he made for his preaching efforts. We don't deny the validity of Christianity as we don't deny any time-tested world-class scripture and tradition. We are not sectarian. Perhaps our pride in thinking we are the best comes across as sectarian.

 

I invite you again to communicate your concepts concerning Christianity with this board. We can all benefit by evaluating our beliefs... Sort of a shared meditation?

 

Alot of us have Christian upbringings.

[leyh]

It seems to me that some of the posts in this thread directed at our Christian friend are loaded with considerable sarcasm, if not hostility. Once, when Srila Prabhupada was lecturing in La Trobe University in Australia, he was questioned by a Christian in a challenging mood, the following exchange took place:

 

Young man (2): I'm a Christian. I follow Jesus. What is your spiritual master in relation to Jesus, and do you see Jesus as just another prophet like...

Madhudvisa: The question was, this man is a follower of Lord Jesus Christ, and he would like to know what our opinion is of Jesus Christ.

Prabhupada: We respect Jesus Christ as you do. Because he is the representative of God, son of God, and we are also speaking of God, so we respect him with our greatest veneration.

Young man (2): So you're comparing Krsna, Buddha, Muhammad to Jesus as the same, and Guru Maharaj-ji too, another Jesus. You're saying that.

Prabhupada: No. I am not Jesus. I am servant of Jesus.

Young man (2): You're a son of Jesus.

Prabhupada: Yes. I am servant of Jesus.

Young man (2): What does that mean?

Prabhupada: I don't say I am Jesus.

Young man (2): Do you have the powers of Jesus? Can you say to a person, "Rise up and walk," when they're paralyzed?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Madhudvisa: He wants to know if you have the powers of Jesus.

Prabhupada: Eh? No, I have no power of Jesus.

Man: Well, I've got the power of Jesus. (laughter) Cause I'm a Christian.

Prabhupada: That's all right. You are Christian, we are Krishnian--practically the same thing. (laughter and applause)

Man: And one other question.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Man: I believe Jesus is coming back and not Krsna. And what are you guys going to do when you see Jesus? (laughter)

Prabhupada: What is that?

Madhudvisa: Jesus. He believes Jesus is going to come back again.

Prabhupada: Well, he is coming, welcome. We shall welcome. It is very good news that Jesus is coming.(La Trobe University Lecture in Melbourne, July 1, 1974.)

 

I have heard the audio recording of the lecture. Srila Prabhupada answered the Christian man calmly, humbly and humourously. Let us try to emulate the example of His Divine Grace.

[ethos]

Leyh, The bold highlights assist the eyes when the common text intervenes. But when it is on top of each other it is harder to distinguish. There must be some consistency to the presentation. That's why I have opted not to use it.

 

You might think different. As you were.

[debbie]

Christian,

I would like to add a short comment to something you said in your post. I think the others on the board have replied well to you, to try to help you understand.You made the comment "God loves you, and I want to love you as much as he does(though because I'm human,it won't happen)"..I know I do not have that much of a religious background, but I have been around many people that do.Most christians,if they are true christians, were taught, as I was,that we are to love everyone. We might not like what actions they sometimes take in their lives, but we love them just the same. Just because someone follows a different path to God,than you follow, should not make them unworthy of your love. I myself, have just come here to this site, a short time ago. I think alot of people here,unlike what some people choose to believe, do believe in Jesus, and feel he was brought here to make man God conscious, and I accept that, and believe it is true. I believe there are different paths to God, and we each must find the path that is for us.That in no way makes us a bad person, because we may differ from you or anyone else. I have been around for a long time, and I admit I am still searching,but here, I think I have found something much different than I have found before. Time will tell, for sure. At least here,I am not alone, and have many people that are searching to be more God conscious and how we can serve Him. This is something I need very much in my life right now. It seems here, where I live, there are some that are really truely devoted to what they believe in, but some just seem to go through the motions, because it is something they feel they have to do..God knows what our true intentions are, and in no way can we fool Him, if we are not true to ourselves, others,or Him. I am striving now, to become more God conscious, and to try to follow a path, that around here,where I live, not many would probably understand. I surely do not expect you to understand it, because right now, it is even new to me..But all in all, I believe I can recieve more spiritual understanding in this path, although it still will take some time. I know my comment was long, but I felt I needed to say it. Let's not judge others because you feel,that your way is the only way..Only our God,whatever we choose to call Him, can really be the judge.I know some may not agree with me on that fact.

Debbie

[leyh]

Dear Ethos:

 

The reason why I choose to use the dark highlights is that they are a feature of Srila Prabhupada's books where his conversations are reproduced and in the spirit of transmitting the message as it is, I like to remain as close to the source as possible. Hope you understand.

[Gauracandra]

I hope our Christian friend is still around. We had a Muslim a few months back, but he didn’t stay very long. I think it would be really interesting if Christians, and Muslims would stick around to discuss these ideas. We can definitely learn from one another, and I think the conversations could be really good. I think the following article nicely explains a Vaisnava’s approach to other faiths:

 

http://www.indiadivine.com/bhaktivinoda-thakur-stages-faith1.htm

 

Also, I’ll be posting shortly a television summary of Srila Siddhaswarupananda’s television program about Christianity. It is a continuation of a series so you can find past summaries in these forums.

[karthik_v]

 

Christian wrote:

 

I believe that nobody can earn their way to heaven, or nirvana, on their own or with any human's help. We need a god. We can't be perfect. Please, if you need help, pray to God, (not Krishina or any other god) and ask him to save you.

 

 

If none of our effort is needed and if we are delivered only by God's discretion, then why should anyone pray to Jesus? After all, without any effort on my side, he decides my destiny, doesn't he? May be you can explain on what parameters he decides one's destiny.

 

 

Christian wrote:

 

Jesus came to die for our sins.

 

 

Where did the "original sin" come from? I hope you won't resort to karma and re-incarnation.

 

 

Christian wrote:

 

I know I'm not being very tolerant.

 

 

No need to re-iterate. Your handle said it all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Just a quick question: What happened to those people that were born before Jesus came to this world? After all they didn't know the message of Jesus; nor did they surrender to the Xtian God, because such things didn't exist then. Were they condemned to eternal hell? What about the folks in interior Africa with no idea about Xtianity? Have they bought their 1 way ticket to eternal hell? Do you think that a Xtian God who punishes people for eternity without even giving them a chance to learn is just?

[theist]

How offenseive to use to use xtian instead of Christian. Sectarianist are the greatest stumbling block to progress.

[Avinash]

Hey, how is everybody?

I am fine, thank you. How are you?

 

Well, I think by now it is pretty obvious I'm a Christian.

 

Even if it was not, it has become obvious from the above sentence of yours.

 

My faith won't change, but I've got some questions to ask you that should make you think?

 

It is not at all my intention to make you change your faith. Don't hesitate to ask any questions.

 

If we can work to god on our own through works, knowledge, and devotion, why do we need a god? Shouldn't the god be saving you, after all, he's perfect. That's what a god is.

 

Just because God is capable of saving us, does not mean that He will save us even if we do not do anything on our part. If we do not deserve being saved, why should He save us?

 

Obviously you aren't monotheistic, but how can you have more than one god? A god is all powerful. If you have a little god, and then you have Krishina, then the little god isn't even worthy of being a god. It doesn't make sense

 

People on this forum consider themselves to be monotheistic. It is not possible to have more than one God, but it is definitely possible to have more than one god. The "little god" is definitely not worthy of being a God, but he is definitely worthy of being a god. Does it make sense now?

 

I believe that nobody can earn their way to heaven, or nirvana, on their own or with any human's help. We need a god. We can't be perfect. Please, if you need help, pray to God, (not Krishina or any other god) and ask him to save you.

 

The devotees of Krsna believe Krsna to be God. So, praying to Krsna is the same as praying to God.

 

Jesus came to die for our sins.

 

It is so unfortunate that there are some (though not all) who think that just because they are Christians, they can do anything they like and they will not be committing any sins because Jesus died for their sins.

 

If you can ever get a copy of The Holy Bible in India, please read John 3:16.

 

I have read entire Bible and now also I read. I do not find any harm in reading the holy books of other religions even if I do not have any intention of changing my religion. How about you also trying to read Bhagvatam, Gita etc?

 

I know I'm not being very tolerant. And by not being tolerant, I may not sound loving. I'm writing this message in love, not to prove that you are wrong.

 

Even if you are not tolerant, I love you.

 

Jesus came in love, he didn't come in pride, he was weak and humble, but he was the most powerful man to ever walk the earth.

I can understand that he came in love and that he was very powerful, though I would disagree that he was the most powerful man to ever walk on Earth.

 

I'm just a kid.

Because of this, I love you even more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[karthik_v]

 

How offenseive to use to use xtian instead of Christian. Sectarianist are the greatest stumbling block to progress.

 

 

I didn't know that Christians consider it offensive when someone uses the word "Xtian". The billboards are filled with words like "X-mas tree, X-mas gift" etc.. If I were to insult Christianity, I would prefer doing so blatantly; not out of ignorance. The last thing I want is some Christian to get offended when I didn't mean offence, as on this occasion.

 

Is it true that "Xtians" is a derogatory term?

[theist]

Strikes me as an offense to replace any Holy name with an X.

 

Just my view.

[Guest guest]

It's not a good sign to cross out the name of Gods representitive. If as many believe the name of Christ is derived from Krsna, we should always offer the uttmost reverence for it, even if we can't fully appreciate the Mesiahs contribution to this world. Those who present Christmas with an X don't want to remember the personality behind the name and the event which is likened to Vyasa puja for Christians, the Vaisnava I'm sure wouldn't wish to see Xpuja instead of Vyasas Holy Name.

Let's keep it Honorable!

[debbie]

I agree. I have seen X used before the holy name so many times, and I choose not to do so, because it seems to be offensive to me, as well. It has always just kind of gave me a bad feeling. You are right that it seems not to acknowledge the Holy name.

Debbie

[Guest guest]

Instead of taking shelter of his lotus feet we hover on mental platform and cause all kinds of offenses.May he forgive us.