Manni Posted December 2, 2002 Report Share Posted December 2, 2002 Hi everyone, I'm sure you've all heard the story of Rohini, who was actually Visnu in the form of a beautiful woman. She ensnared both demigods and demons with her beauty with the aim of distributing Eternal-Life-Nectar to the demigods and ordinary nectar to the demons. So here i've hit a snag! We are jivatma, and eternal relationship with Krsna must be realised. Except Krsna has given ETERNAL life to the devatas - are they not now timelessly locked in their divine position? Can't they one day become human and have the opportunity to reach Krsna? Or are we to assume that we should give the sanskrit a bit of a buffer and say 'eternal' doesn't actually mean 'eternal'? If the latter argument is correct, is our 'eternal' relationship with Krsna actually 'eternal'? Am I making any sense or am i just RAMBLING?!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2002 Report Share Posted December 2, 2002 Manni, One souls nectar is another souls poison. Can you define your conception of nectar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2002 Report Share Posted December 2, 2002 Our eternality doesn't have to remain fixed in one form it can change according to our realization, A demigod can go beyond their demigod post and form to the Vaikuntha dimention, and even on to Goloka to serve in a simple form as cowherd friend of Krsna, if they find that grace. They don't have to nessacarily come down into human form to go home to Godhead. Although it is mentioned it is easier to connect with Mahaprabhus' party here in the Kali yuga. Have you ever read Sanatan Goswamis 'Brhad Bhagavatamritam,' it is full of delightful answers to your questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manni Posted December 2, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2002 hi guest, my conception of nectar in this case is exactly that that the SB describes in this episode - nectar that gives eternal life to devatas... again, if they have eternal life that means they can never be destroyed, even at the Final Deluge! i don;t understand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manni Posted December 2, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2002 i was under the impression that you can only get back to Godhead when on this planet in human form?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted December 2, 2002 Report Share Posted December 2, 2002 I think it is just easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhaktavasya Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 Don't you mean Mohini Murti instead of Rohini? Mohini Murti is the one who is Krishna in the form of a woman from the story of the battle between the demigods and the demons for the nectar of immortality. Rohini is the mother of Balarama. But you probably just made a spelling mistake. The story of the demigods and demons fighting for the nectar of immortality, I would say, is more a lesson on cooperation in getting things done (the demigods and demons working together to churn the ocean)and that the immortal nectar represents temporairy enjoyment that is the fate of the demons and eternality in our godly or spiritual bodies. Also that sometimes it may seem that Vishnu is encouraging the demons but in the end He (or She in this form)shows favour to the demigods or the godly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 Actually real churning of nectar comes about through hearing and speaking about the pastimes of Krsna. The more you churn the more Krsna becomes a reality and He reciprocates in turn, by awarding more nectar to the churners in the form of joy in our hearts and a perpetual flow of rememberance of Him and His dear servants. mac-citta mad-gata-prana bodhayantam parasparam kathayantas ca mam nityam tusyanti ca ramanti ca The thoughts of My pure devotees dwell in Me, their lives are fully devoted to My service, and they derive great satsifaction and bliss from always enlightening one another and conversing about Me. (Bhag-gita 10.9) This is nectar to the hearts of a devotee, whereas immortality may be a curse, if existence is not in constant engagement in the service of the most beautiful what is it's value as it is ultimately self centred, instead of God centred. We want to please the Lord and His devotees, that is our life, not what we can get, but what we can give. If in some tiny way we can attract the attention of that side with our service and add to Their pleasure then our life will be complete. So go on talking to all about the glories of the Lord and His retinue and feel Him come alive in your heart. In the words of one great vaisnava, "My ears are being nectarized" And even Mohini murtis beauty will pale in the presence of that three fold bended form of Ecstacy Personified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manni Posted December 3, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 Yes i meant Mohini, thanks Bhaktavasya! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manni Posted December 3, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 Thats a wonderful interpretation, Guest, thanks. But then coming back to the SB, are we to assume that that episode is just a story with a meaning, rather than history? By the way i really appreciate ALL replies so far, so don't take this next statement to heart, people - I still don't have the answer to my original question: If the Gods are made immortal, then they cannot reach Krsna. In fact the notion of Immortality cannot be correct in the fullest sense because when Krsna decides to destroy everything at the Final Deluge, even Brahma and Siva exit from existance because they are not Visnu-tattva. And if they are not Visnu-tattva, then how can the 'lesser' demigods be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 Never was there a time when you were'nt nor a time when you shant be Manni, this fundamental instruction by Krsna is speaking to the heart of all thru one, for the sake of all He is giving you self realization to understand you will never cease to exist, you always have been, you always will be, the soul doesn't need this material universe or this body to exist. Our existence is only dependant on the Grace of God. He can withdraw every Jiva from these myriad universes into His own dimention with the inhalation of one breath, that is including the demigods and the ameobas, if He wills, such is his mystic splendour. Reality is in the vision of the seer, when we surrender to Krsna, material conception will dissolve, your consciousness becomes transformed to see everything in relation to Krsna all atoms are dancing blissfull units of the Lord, and there is no such thing as death in that vision. But the form you wear, the suit you choose may change according to your faith. Pralaya doesn't effect the devotee of God. You can't be drowned by a cosmic deluge nor incinerated by any material element for you are made of far finer stuff. And you will be safe and sound without a fear in the assurance that He is your very dear friend, His divine love for all of us is overwhelmingly inconceivable, therefore we should be utilizing every waking moment to attract that mercy. By any means become Krsna conscious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manni Posted December 3, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 I understand what you are saying, guest, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2002 Report Share Posted December 3, 2002 just a little xtra while we're on the thread We are not to assume this is a story or history. All pastimes in relation to the Lord are nitya-ever existing also. For not only is the Lord eternal, but every part and pastime of the Lord is also eternal. And it is to be understood that all His lilas are forever unfolding in consciouness somewhere or other, just as the sun rises in one place then a minute later in another place, so it isn't like mundane history that comes and goes in time. And there are infinitely more glorious events than anyone can relate in one small book, on one small planet, in one small universe. The pastimes of God are miraculously ever increasing in evernew realms of wonder, again all are living in consciousness. There is another wonderful book in keeping with our nectar theme here called 'Positive and progressive Immortality' or Prapanna Jivanamrtm- Nectar in the lives of the surrendered souls by Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaj. That gives a beautiful account from the realizations of saints on the process of surrender that is truly worth aquiring. Lord Brahma and Siva may cease to exist as we know them but that doesn't mean they will not exist in some other form depending on your angle of realization, they could even be your friend or master. Try to see the eternal spiritual world is ever dynamic, it has no limitation, for every soul has the potential to be whatever He wants you to be. Part of the surrendering process is staying open to the flow of divinities will, ever present in our lives, trying to draw us up to that ever fresh life giving environment not to the objects of this temporary mirage, the death producing world of forgetfulness. So arise, awake and be glad for the song has no ending, oh ye sons and daughters of the nectarine sea. Treat your Japa malika as you would the Lord himself with fervant love and reverence and He will direct you to take the Holy Name proper from a pure agent of Divinity. Yasya prasadad Bhagavat prasado yasyaprasadanna gatih kuto 'pi bhyayamstuvamstasyayasa tri-sandhyam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhaktavasya Posted December 4, 2002 Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 Manni, it only occurred to me later that in your opening post you stated that Mohini Murti distributed the real nectar to the demigods and ordinairy nectar to the demons. It didn't sound correct, so I double-checked (Srimad Bhagwatam Canto 8 ch.9)and there is no mention of Mohini Murti giving ordinary nectar to the demons. Please read the chapter again, with attention to verse 26, and you'll see that there was only one jug of nectar (originally from Lord Danvantari)and that Vishnu as Mohini Murti decided to distribute it to all the demigods. The demon Rahu disguised himself in the dress of a demigod and sat in line to receive the nectar. As soon as he began to drink it Lord Vishnu (Mohini Murti)immediately detected his real identity as a demon as invoked his disc (Sudarsana chakra)and severed Rahu's head from the rest of his body. Because of the effects of the ambrosia the demons head remained immortal although the rest of his body died. So, as the legend has it, whenever there is an eclipse of the moon (where the soma is said to originate)it is the head of the demon Rahu trying to swallow the moon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manni Posted December 4, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2002 yeh, i actually didn't read Prabhupada's version of the SB - perhaps it was a different transalation/interpretation... thanks for info anyway, Bhaktavasya! Hari Bol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaishnava_das108 Posted December 7, 2002 Report Share Posted December 7, 2002 We are jivatma, and eternal relationship with Krsna must be realised. Except Krsna has given ETERNAL life to the devatas - are they not now timelessly locked in their divine position? Can't they one day become human and have the opportunity to reach Krsna? Or are we to assume that we should give the sanskrit a bit of a buffer and say 'eternal' doesn't actually mean 'eternal'? The devatas are not eternal. At the time of the final devastation, everyone is dead. Including devatas like Shiva, Ganesh, etc. Only Krishna and His eternal associates exist in their uninterrupted pastimes in Goloka Vrindavan. As for their becoming human to get an opportunity to reach Krishna, I once read a quote or a purport from Srila Prabhupada. I do not have it offhand, so please forgive me for paraphrasing. It was something to the likes of: "Demigod is a higher position from human, and you can either progress further to Krishna or you can fall back down." So as I understand it, the position of being a demigod is higher than that of a human, and they are even given some responsibility to perform as per natural affairs. They can either get intoxicated with the power (as has Indra on a number of occasions) or they can use the higher opportunities to progress to full service of Krishna in Goloka. Vaishnava das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaishnava_das108 Posted December 7, 2002 Report Share Posted December 7, 2002 yeh, i actually didn't read Prabhupada's version of the SB - perhaps it was a different transalation/interpretation May I ask what version you have read? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 if memory serves correctly it was a translation by Kamala Subhramanya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 Kamala Subrahmanyam's Mahabharata is just a prose rendition written like a novel. It isn't actually a translation of the Mahabharata. It is one of the best written versions though (not in the sense of accurate, but in the sense of enjoyable to read). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krishnabhakht Posted December 8, 2002 Report Share Posted December 8, 2002 Vaishnava_das108 : The devatas are not eternal. At the time of the final devastation, everyone is dead. Including devatas like Shiva, Ganesh, etc. Only Krishna and His eternal associates exist in their uninterrupted pastimes in Goloka Vrindavan. I: I have heard that Shiva is eternal. Have I heard it wrong? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manni Posted December 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 shiva is apparently on the verge of Visnu-Tattva but not quite, so is not eternal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manni Posted December 9, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 thanks for that... i would read SP's version but it's too complex for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaishnava_das108 Posted December 9, 2002 Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 I have heard that Shiva is eternal. Have I heard it wrong? I have no idea. All I know is that Shiva is counted among the demigods, and thus will not survive the Final dissolution. Regarding Shiva's connection with Visnu-tattva, here is the quote: "The living entities are affected by maya, but although Lord Siva apparently associates with maya, he is not affected. In other words, all living entities within this material world except for Lord Siva are swayed by maya. Lord Siva is therefore neither visnu-tattva nor jiva-tattva. He is between the two." - purport to Bhag 8.12.39 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted December 9, 2002 Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 Who is sadasiva? I think the answer lays there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaishnava_das108 Posted December 9, 2002 Report Share Posted December 9, 2002 Who is sadasiva? I think the answer lays there. I was expecting (or rather, hoping) that someone would bring up the topic of Sadasiva. Perhaps you can explain to me who is Sadasiva, his role in Goloka and his manifestation in the material creation as Rudra/Siva? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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