Did Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura eat meat?

[Vaishnava_das108]

Hare Krishna.

 

Thanks for those quotes re: Shiva. I am aware that Shiva smoked ganja and did other things.

 

He is a spiritual authority, the head of his own sampradays, and the greatest Vaishnava.

 

But does he have any place in Krsna-lila in Goloka? If so, then how does he smoke ganja etc?

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

He never said he ate meat with his manjari body.

 

He said he ate meat before he attained any lvl of spiritual realization. This is not suprising at all because any devotee born into a low family is bound to have a few faults before he loses them through devotional service. Anyway, I think your latter paragraph is correct.

 

 

Is there a significant difference between eating meat in your material body and eating meat in a manjari body?

 

Under that logic, any acharya (ancient or present-day) could eat meat and indulge in all sorts of material behaviour under the plea that this is "normal" on account of being born in a low family, environment, etc?

 

I think it is obvious that our beloved Srila Prabhupada never indulged in such things.

[Guest guest]

 

Under that logic, any acharya (ancient or present-day) could eat meat and indulge in all sorts of material behaviour under the plea that this is "normal" on account of being born in a low family, environment, etc?

 

 

 

He/She wouldn't be a Vaisnava acharya then would he/she?

Bhaktivinode wasn't eating meat while he was a Guru. He ate it early in his life and then gave it up while he progressed in bhakti-yoga.

 

 

Is there a significant difference between eating meat in your material body and eating meat in a manjari body?

 

 

Noone who has realized their siddha-deha in their right mind is going to eat meat. They don't go together.

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

Bhaktivinode wasn't eating meat while he was a Guru. He ate it early in his life and then gave it up while he progressed in bhakti-yoga.

 

 

This means that according to your logic, Srila Bhaktivinoda was a sadhana-siddha who realised his eternal identity as Kamala-majari.

 

Oh how I wish there was a Vaishnava acharya to clarify this situation!

[stonehearted]

Vaishnava_das108 wrote:This means that according to your logic, Srila Bhaktivinoda was a sadhana-siddha who realised his eternal identity as

Kamala-majari. Oh how I wish there was a Vaishnava acharya to clarify this situation!

 

Sanjay, isn't there a scriptural injunction avising us that, among other things, to see a vaishnava in terms of his (or her) material body is a sign of a hellish mentality? Either you find Bhaktivinoda Thakura's realizations and work inspiring or you don't. If you do, whatever came before those things that made Krishna consciousness available to the rest of the world just don't matter.

 

If you have a guru or an advanced vaishnava in whom you have confidence, and with whom youhave a confidential relationship, I would advise you to consult with this person. If you don't, you may want to consider how that fact may contribute to such doubts and find someone who can help you. Acording to Mahaprabhu's instructions to Sanatan, spritual life begins with finding a qualified guru, surrendering to him, inquiring confidentially from him, and serving him according to his instructions.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The smriti-shastra teaches that one should not look into the source of a clean river, nor should one look into the past of a saint (prior to him having become saintly).

 

The Bhagavatam states that the liberated souls sometimes conceal their identity, just like the firey coals covered by a thin layer of ash. Externally one can not see the fire present, but when a little wind comes, the flames will again ignite. Liberated souls sometimes conceal their identity and appear as though conditioned.

 

There are many examples of liberated souls who play the part of conditioned souls. Sri Narada Muni is one such example. He is an eternally liberated soul. He is able to travel between Vaikuntha and the material realm at will, yet he was cursed by Brahma and became a sense enjoyer for 10,000 years in the body of a Gandharva. Another time he was born as the son of a maidservant, ignorant of the path of Krishna bhakti.

 

By the will of the Lord, sometimes His intimate associates are covered by avidya so that He can carry out His pastimes. Arjuna, the eternal friend of Lord Krishna is again and again put into ignorance by the will of the Lord so that the Bhagavad Gita can be recited in each cycle of yugas.

 

It is foolish to think that we can understand the activities of the liberated Acharyas by our mathematical formulas.

 

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

Sanjay, isn't there a scriptural injunction avising us that, among other things, to see a vaishnava in terms of his (or her) material body is a sign of a hellish mentality?

 

 

Yes, I have quoted that verse somewhere above I think.

 

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not even attempting to view Srila Bhaktivinoda in a material way. My problem is very simple: I was under the impression that the Gaudiya guru-varga were nitya-siddha, and now it seems that some elements may be sadhana-siddha.

 

Ultimately you are right, because as long as they are "siddha," then it's all right isn't it? They can show us the path to reach Krishna, having reached Him themselves.

 

I do not have a guru. My nickname "Vaishnava das" is exactly that, a nickname. It implies what I would like to be, a servant of the Vaishnavas.

 

I am not yet fortunate enough to receive the mercy of a guru. I am very attracted to the books of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gour Govinda Swami. I am trying to qualify myself to receive the mercy of Sri Guru. Let's hope that I will be successful.

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

are many examples of liberated souls who play the part of conditioned souls. Sri Narada Muni is one such example. He is an eternally liberated soul. He is able to travel between Vaikuntha and the material realm at will, yet he was cursed by Brahma and became a sense enjoyer for 10,000 years in the body of a Gandharva. Another time he was born as the son of a maidservant, ignorant of the path of Krishna bhakti.

 

 

Thank you Jahnava-Nitai prabhu, for this answer. I was hoping you would join this discussion with your extensive knowledge. This example of Sri Narada Muni is a good one and has pacified my mind somewhat. But I need to ask you some questions:

 

- If you say that Narada Muni is an eternally liberated soul, how did he get cursed? Isn't it true that Srila Prabhupada said that maya does not enter Goloka Vrindavan?

 

- If he became a sense enjoyer, that is obvious from the Bhagavatam description that it involved wine, women, and possibly meat?

 

- How was it possible for him to be ignorant of Krishna-bhakti? One may say that this may be part of the effects of the curse, but then that is a circular argument as to how a nitya-siddha can get cursed in the first place?

 

 

By the will of the Lord, sometimes His intimate associates are covered by avidya so that He can carry out His pastimes. Arjuna, the eternal friend of Lord Krishna is again and again put into ignorance by the will of the Lord so that the Bhagavad Gita can be recited in each cycle of yugas.

 

 

Fair enough. That is a clear example of an associate falling into avidya by Krishna's will for the purpose of giving the Bhagavad-gita. But if Arjuna is in this "avidya," does this mean he would indulge in material vices?

 

If Arjuna indulged in material vices while yet being an eternal associate, are his offenses forgiven on the strength of BG 9.30?

[Guest guest]

the fault in a devotee is likened to the fault on the face of the moon. the fault does not reduce the moon's ability to give soothing light.

 

we cannot determine the nature of any person by reading some magazines. the best is to see if his writings make sense and is in line with sastras.

[leyh]

I am ignorant about Siva's place in Krsna lila in Goloka. Maybe some more knowledgable devotee can shed some light?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

If Arjuna indulged in material vices while yet being an eternal associate, are his offenses forgiven on the strength of BG 9.30?

 

 

Arjuna did not actually fall into material vices, but rather was ignorant of the nature of the soul. In the Vedic culture, even those who were ignorant of the eternal soul still followed the path of dharma.

 

Regarding Narada Muni:

 

 

- If you say that Narada Muni is an eternally liberated soul, how did he get cursed? Isn't it true that Srila Prabhupada said that maya does not enter Goloka Vrindavan?

 

 

Narada Muni was visiting Brahma-loka at the time. He chose to accept the curse, as it was a chance to show the power of devotional service, that one can go from naradhama (lowest of men) to narottama (perfected soul) simply by the path of bhakti. Lord Brahma was directed by the Supersoul to curse Narada so that this divine lila could be enacted. Otherwise Narada Muni, being a liberated soul, was not bound by any mundane curse.

 

 

If he became a sense enjoyer, that is obvious from the Bhagavatam description that it involved wine, women, and possibly meat?

 

 

Since he was born in the Gandharva-loka, the rules and regulations followed there (and resultant karmic reactions) are different from the earthly realm. He was attached to women, and had thousands of gandharva women travelling with him throughout the universe.

 

 

- How was it possible for him to be ignorant of Krishna-bhakti? One may say that this may be part of the effects of the curse, but then that is a circular argument as to how a nitya-siddha can get cursed in the first place?

 

 

Forgetfullnes comes from Lord Krishna. The Lord sometimes covers the knowledge of His devotees to enact a divine lila.

[Guest guest]

today i listened to a wonderful lecture by bhakti caru maharaj on sara grahi vaishnava. sara grahi vaishnava means a devotee who takes the essense. this is the title of the poem by bhakti vinod thakur. even in this poem, one can find faults. but what is important is the mood of devotion that bhakti vinod is transmitting. to be a good devotee one should learn to find perfection in every one. it is pointless to find faults with exalted devotees.

[ethos]

I want to manifest an image before I reply to this.

 

Isn't it true that Garuda, the mount of Visnu, eats meat on a regular basis? And didn't the Lord once offer Garuda his own flesh from His arm so Garuda could eat?

 

It really comes down to this: Is Bhaktivinode the real thing? Did he really deserve his reputation as a pure devotee? Because that is the dividing line. Pure devotees are purported to be above all faults by our philosophy and spiritual wisdom. They are able to please the Lord and that's all that matters. Our opinions are worthless.

 

If you believe he was a pure devotee as history has recorded, then it is offensive to conjecture. If you want to talk as a novice trying to understand the fine points of duality and circumstance, that's something else.

 

I'll share a very strong realization I had related to this: (That should be good for a laugh. Huh?)

 

When the soul finally reaches Krsna's lotus feet and finds shelter there, when he is again engaged in intimate reciprocation between the Lord and His devotees through samadhi and all that, at some transitional point from material to spiritual, all his previous activities become meaningful and spiritualized––even though they be considered sinful by mundane discourse. I am speaking of a retroactive principle.

 

The reason for this is simple and obvious:

Everything you expereienced and reacted to contributed to your success.

 

I posted this as a quick reply to the originator. I glanced at some replies. Now that I am reading this thread thoroughly, I find many meritorious ideas here from the devotee community.

 

I'm not really responding to you Theist. I know you agree. I just happened to click on your post.

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

today i listened to a wonderful lecture by bhakti caru maharaj on sara grahi vaishnava. sara grahi vaishnava means a devotee who takes the essense. this is the title of the poem by bhakti vinod thakur. even in this poem, one can find faults.

 

 

What faults have you found in the poems of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura?

 

 

it is pointless to find faults with exalted devotees.

 

 

Nobody is trying to find faults with exalted devotees, least of all me. I simply learned that Srila Bhaktivinoda was a meat-eater according to his autobiography and was greatly surprised by this fact.

 

The premise is true providing that the Svalikhita-jivani is an authentic text which some quarters think doubtful.

[Jagat]

This thread came to a halt with the statement that "Sva-likhita-jivani" is a doubtful work. It is not. These doubts are a smoke screen for the doubters.

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

This thread came to a halt with the statement that "Sva-likhita-jivani" is a doubtful work. It is not. These doubts are a smoke screen for the doubters.

 

 

Well, personally at this point in time I do not trust in Lalitaprasada Thakura (son of Bhaktivinoda Thakura). I am exercising a great deal of caution with regards to him.

 

I have never seen such egomania in anyone who professes to be a Vaishnava. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[theist]

just concerning the parts where bhaktivinode says he ate meat at one point. What gain would anybody hope to gain by fabricating that? Bhaktivinode could not gain from it. Lalitprasada? What could he gain?

 

Myself i actual felt closer to Bhaktivinode when i read it. Why? I thought here is an honest soul just laying out his life as it happened. Simple and honest.

 

 

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

just concerning the parts where bhaktivinode says he ate meat at one point. What gain would anybody hope to gain by fabricating that? Bhaktivinode could not gain from it. Lalitprasada? What could he gain?

 

 

Lalita Prasad has an extremely high opinion of himself, which is quite befitting of "pure devotees." In this regard I'll repost something earlier in this thread:

 

I have recently read the post of a certain devotee who claims to be in possession of a letter from Lalitaprasada Thakur. The letter itself is dated 30-5-76, typed on "Sri Bhaktivinoda Gosthi" letterhead and is addressed to a "Richard," and this devotee has given implicit permission for it to be published, since he himself has publicly published it. I shall repost it here, this letter by Lalitaprasada Thakura. Make up your own minds regarding LPT's conception of himself:

 

Dear Mr. Richard,

 

"I am glad to receive your letter of 29-4-76. I am a perfect devotee and follow the dictations of Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as incalcated [sic] by Thakur Vaktivinode and as depicted in Srimad Bhagavat, Shri Chatanya [sic] Sikshamrita and the Bhajan dictations by other unalloyed pure devotees. People of Vrindaban always love me heart and soul. I am not in agreement with Gaudiya Math principles, that is not Gaudiya Vaisnaba Math and they are not approved by many Gaudiya Vaishnabas. I always stick to the Gaudiya Vaisnab Samaj and Shri Vaktivinode Gosthi in toto. So there is no enemy of mine and no difference of opinion with the principles which are accepted and followed in Vrindavan. When I went to Vrindaban last time I received warm reception from all there. The different principles which have been lately introduced by the indifferent [?] movement of my brother are not acceptable at all in toto. So also I am not in a position to agree with that [sic] principles followed by "ISKCON" at present and my attempt is to bring the other parties to follow the dictations of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as incalcated [sic] by my Guru Thakur Vaktivinode. So I live alone at the birth place of Thakur Vaktivinode who has been declared as the seventh Goswami by well renewed [sic] late Sri Radhikanatha Goswami and other unalloyed pure devotees.

 

So I stick to the Ragamarga and Bhajanmarga as expounded by

Sri-Rup-Sonatan-Bhatta Raghunath-Sri Jib-Gopal Bhatta-Das Raghunath. So I remain confined to the Bhajan teachings of Srila Raghunath Das Goswami.

 

If you have any differences of behaviour by any party I remain dumb and silent by seeing their fairy dance.

 

The questions you have raised are to be cleared when we meet. Charandas before his demise corrected his mistake by taking instructions and initiation from Thakur Vaktivinode for a year and half every day while the latter lived at "Bhaktikuteer" on the sea beach of Puri. Knowing the mistake which could not be easily corrected Charandas became mad and passed away at Jhanjpeta Math at Puri. His last remains is kept buried by the side of Haridas Thakur's Samadhi at sea-side in Puri and is adored by all because he corrected his mistake. You will find the account of Charandas in "Vaktivinode Charit" by Krishnadas-Junior. As regards my brother's affairs it is not good for me to meddle with and I am unable to explain at this moment. So kindly excuse me and if you are still anxious to know I can explain to you privately. I want to live secluded.

 

 

Sincerely yours,

 

L P Thakur 30.5-76 [this signature and date are in his own hand]

[raga]

Though I agree that the letter cited from Lalita Prasad Thakura is surprising, I don't think Prabhupad was practically speaking any less in presenting himself as a pure devotee and so forth.

 

"Yes, whoever you tell the chant to, it is effective. You have heard it from me and my disciples, similarly I have heard it from my Guru Maharaja, and so on, and on. Because you have heard it from a pure devotee of the Lord, therefore it is transmitted from you to another."

 

============ REF. Letter to: Andrea Temple -- Los Angeles 6 March, 1968

 

 

 

[theist]

Thanks raga. I have been looking for that quote off and on for a long time. i couldn't remember where it was. I thought it was written by someone who was not formally initiated but wanted to start a temple in Florida. I must have mixed up letters in my mind.

 

Still I see no gain by anybody claiming Bhaktivinode ate meat if he didn't.

 

Rather Lalitaprasada was perfect or not is not important to me. It was a disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta that brought the Name to my attention so i know where my gratitude is to be reposed.

 

respects to all

[theist]

Yes, whoever you tell the chant to, it is effective. You have heard it from me and my disciples, similarly I have heard it from my Guru Maharaja, and so on, and on. Because you have heard it from a pure devotee of the Lord, therefore it is transmitted from you to another. Just as an aerial message, is transmitted from one place to another, similarly, this Guru parampara system is working. My disciples are my agents, my representatives, so by hearing it from them, you are receiving it from me. And because you are a sincere soul, those who are hearing the Mantra from you are receiving it in disciplic succession, from Lord Caitanya and from Lord Krishna. Letter Andrea Temple 1968 march 6

[Jagat]

The term "pure devotee" is used in Bengal to mean someone following the regulative principles. I wouldn't make too much of it.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

They may refer to other devotees in a very generous manner, but you won't, or will rarely, find a Bengali himself saying, "I am a shuddha-bhakta".

 

Of course sometimes pure devotees may reveal they are shuddha-bhaktas. But more often it is conditioned souls who are quick to proclaim themselves as liberated.

 

There is no thermometer we can use to veryify someone's claim in writting.

[Vaishnava_das108]

Nice quote, surprising too.

 

But really, Srila Prabhupada could have been referring to anyone as a pure devotee, since the mantra descends in disciplic succession, and he named his own guru too. There is also the possibility that he was referring to himself too, but it is suffice to say that Srila Prabhupada never quite advertised himself in quite the same way that LPT is doing?

[Vaishnava_das108]

I do wonder who is the "Charandas" referred to in the letter.

 

Is it the same Charandas baba who introduced the "Nitai Gaur Radhe Shyam" mantra?