Islamic quote about Garbhodakasayi-Visnu?

[Vaishnava_das108]

"Narrated Imran bin Husain: The Prophet said, 'There was nothing but Allah, and His Throne was over the water, and He wrote everything in the Book (in the Heaven) and created the heavens and the earth.'

"Then a man shouted, 'O Ibn Husain! Your she-camel has gone away!' So I went away and could not see the she-camel because of the mirage. By Allah, I wished I had left that she-camel (but not that gathering)." [sahih al-Bukhari 4.414]

 

EXPLANATION: One may ask why such stories are "narrated". Well, within Islam there are two major sources of shastra, which are the Qur'an and the Hadiths. The Hadiths are the collection of the sayings and doings of the Prophet Muhummad, and each incident is related by an eyewitness. The rationale behind the collection of the Hadiths is to preserve for posterity the example set by the Prophet and is also the Muslim basis for it's Gaudiya parallel, 'mahajano yena gatah sa panthah.'

Next, we can easily see by virtue of clear description that Allah was sitting on His "Throne" over the "water". I believe that this corresponds to Ananta-Sesa and the Garbhodaka Ocean respectively. Finally, readers may be confused by the strange anecdote about the she-camel. The idea is that while Imran bin Husain was listening to the Prophet's lecture, he was alerted that his camel had escaped and he went off in search of it. He then laments that he should have ignored his camel and sat down to hear more about Allah from the Prophet.

 

We can also lament, because had Imran bin Husain testified to more of the Prophet's commentary, we may have acquired more evidence to suggest the possibility of a "formful" God within Islam.

 

Conversely, we can study the arguments of Lord Chaitanya with the Pathans, in which He conclusively proved (by quoting the Qur'an) that Allah was of a dark colour and that there are descriptions of karma, jnana and bhakthi within the Qur'an.

 

So we can easily see that a devout Muslim who follows the rules and regulations of Islam and manages to chant the Shahadha declaration at the time of death may very well get a spiritual body to serve Garbhodakasayi Vishnu or serve Vishnu in one of the Vaikuntha planets. Speaking of which, Srila Prabhupada once related to Hari Sauri das that he had a dream about a planet where pious Muslims go after death.

 

[dna]

Conversely, we can study the arguments of Lord Chaitanya with the Pathans, in which He conclusively proved (by quoting the Qur'an) that Allah was of a dark colour and that there are descriptions of karma, jnana and bhakthi within the Qur'an.

 

Can you point me to the documented arguments between Lord Chaitanya and the Pathans and where in the Qur'an the descriptions are stated?

[Maverique]

Peace and Blessings of God be up on you all!

 

Well rightly said by Vaishnava das108, The Qur'an is the principal source of every Muslim's faith and practice. It deals with all subjects that concern us as human beings, including wisdom, doctrine, worship and law; but its basic theme is the relationship between God and His creatures. At the same time, the Qur'an provides guidelines for a just society, proper human conduct and equitable economic principles.

 

Apart from the Quran..

Yes, the sunnah, sometimes referred to as the hadith, the practice and example of the Prophet, is the second source of inspiration and instruction for Muslims. Belief in the sunnah is part of the Islamic faith.

 

Well...Coming back to topic, brother Vaishnav has quoted the sayings of the Prophet Muhammed(Peace be up on him) from the collection of Al-Bukhari Volume 4 Hadith No.414, where the Prophet talks about the Genesis.

 

It is not that if the narrator was sitting there listening to the Prophet, he would have described about Allah's image..I dont know why people are trying to give image to the non-comparable ONE!

 

The best answer that any one can give you, regarding 'the Concept of Almighty God in Islam',is quote to you the Surah(Chapter) of the Holy Qur'an, Surah Ikhlas(The Purity), Chapter No. 112, Verse No. 1 to 4, which says:

 

"Say: He is Allah the One and Only;

Allah the Eternal Absolute;

He begetteth not nor is He begotten;

And there is none like unto Him."

 

Similar to the message that is given in the Holy Qur'an in Surah Anam, Chapter No.6 Verse No.103

"No vision can grasp Him, but He grasps all vision, He is beyond comprehension, yet He is acquainted with all things".

 

This sums up the whole argument and warns us specially against Anthropomorphism (taking human forms), the tendency to conceive of Allah after our own pattern, an insidous tendency that creeps in at all times and among all peoples.

 

And coming to your second part of discussion, bro Vaishnav talks about

that he came across arguments of someone with some Pathans, who is trying to give some Image to al mighty God. I Just want to say Mr.Vaishnav the same thing what The Quran says in

chapter 2 and verse 111 "...Produce your PROOF if Ye are truthful"

Produce the proof Mr. Vaishnav if you are truthful!!!

 

 

 

Furthermore...

Let us glance into hindu scriptures..

 

It is mentioned in the verse of the Sweta Sutara Upanishads, Chapter 4 Verse 20, that "His form cannot be seen, No one can see Him with the eyes"

 

It is mentioned in the Yajurved, Chapter 32, Verse 3

"Natasti Pratima Asti" - There is no image of Him.

And verse continues and says that "He is unborn, and He should be worshipped"

It is mentioned in the Yajurved, Chapter 40, Verse 8, that

"God is bodyless and Pure".

It is mentioned in the Yajurved, Chapter 40, Verse 9, that

"Andasma Pravishanti Ya Sambaiti Upaste",

which means - "They are entering darkness those who worship the Asambuti". The 'Asambuti' are the natural things like air, water, fire. And the verse continues...

"they are sinking more in darkness, those who worship the 'Sambuti' ". The "Sambuti" are the "created things" like Idols and other manifestation.

 

 

Expecting a Rebutal!

[theist]

Not being a Hindu or a Muslim I can't address your scriptures. But I do have a question. According to the Quran, what is the nature of the spiritual world? If God is formless then is all of the spiritual realm formless or just God? When you go there what will be the nature of your relationship to God? Is He just like the atmosphere there or something. Are there spitiual forms for other souls, just not God's?

[Gauracandra]

Good question Theist. What is the Islamic notion of heaven?

[Guest guest]

Paradise + 72 virgins?

 

Joy

[Guest guest]

The supreme spirit has unlimited personal forms.He is also all pervading as great golden light which we cannot see with blunt senses.Why do you have a problem with personal God?You say refer to scriptures,right there in Srimad Bhagavatam it is written down God is personal.In fact this form is easy to love.The great sage who compiled the upanishads wrote Bhagavatam.

 

Joy

[theist]

"Paradise + 72 virgins?

 

Joy "

 

Well that about fits my present conception. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

We have heard nothing back from the Koran so am I to take it the Koran is silent on what the Kingdom of God is like?

[Guest guest]

Dear Maverique, (may so-called peace be upon you)

who said we are not following our scriptures? do you follow your scriptures? unless you all stop eating meat, peace can never be upon you.

[Guest guest]

hehe theist.On history channel there was a documentary on sucide bombers operating in Israel.In a jail interview a failed bomber was mentioning things of how spirit world is like.He said there are oceans of oil and milk there.Ring any bells?

 

Joy

[theist]

Joy,

 

Oceans of oil and milk oceans too? Yeah sounds familiar. Svetadvipa? Fifth canto maybe? One things for sure, these suicide bombers ain't going to Svetadvipa. And the 72 virgins...well they better read the fine print closly. Maybe they are still virgins for good reasons. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif They say the devil is in the details.

[Guest guest]

HiHi theistji.They also mentioned rivers of honey.I felt pity and sad.Lots of anger within their hearts.See children of God are suffering so much.

 

I like talking to you for your are very warm.Take care.

 

Joy

[Guest guest]

Yes it can't be seen by this eyes

[madhav]

I can see here that asuras come in disguise of suras

and tell us Islam is very good.

Some even tell or will tell

"Islam is tolerant and religion of love and peace."

 

Note that they tell it to the Hindus, who are already non violent. They do not tell it to Bin Laden and his party.

 

So, when any one preaches Islam here or tells it is tolerant or just as good a Hinduism, then we need to tell him or her, to go first to

Bin Laden and party to preach them,

and never come here untill Laden and party give up violence and cross border terrorism.

 

The Vedic people cannot be fooled any more.

 

The Hindus and Bharat are the victims of Islam for 1000+ years. So, to know what Koran and Hadith say, we need to see the sources presented on Hindu web sites. Or, we can find which translstion Saudi Arabia's wahabis says is corrcet. Those who know Islam and Hinduism would say that these two are 180 degree apart like north and south poles.

 

See the half page at: http://islamexposed.com/

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

Conversely, we can study the arguments of Lord Chaitanya with the Pathans, in which He conclusively proved (by quoting the Qur'an) that Allah was of a dark colour and that there are descriptions of karma, jnana and bhakthi within the Qur'an.

 

Can you point me to the documented arguments between Lord Chaitanya and the Pathans and where in the Qur'an the descriptions are stated?

 

 

I believe that the descriptions of this even is contained in the Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya-Lila 18.

I will shortly work on the Quranic descriptions also.

[Vaishnava_das108]

Please forgive me for not replying earlier. I have been caught up with various projects.

 

 

Well...Coming back to topic, brother Vaishnav has quoted the sayings of the Prophet Muhammed(Peace be up on him) from the collection of Al-Bukhari Volume 4 Hadith No.414, where the Prophet talks about the Genesis.

 

It is not that if the narrator was sitting there listening to the Prophet, he would have described about Allah's image..I dont know why people are trying to give image to the non-comparable ONE!

 

 

It is clear from the given quote which is contained in the Sahih al-Bukhari that the narrator (Imran bin Husain) regretted running after his camel. He wished that he had ignored the camel to hear more of the Prophet's decription.

But you seem to forget one important thing: If Allah sits on a Throne, He must have a form to do so.

 

I am aware that the concept of "form" does not exist in Islam to the extent that ascribing a human form to Allah/God is tantamount to blasphemy. No one is saying that Allah has a human form, but it is true that Allah has His own spiritual form. Otherwise how can He sit on a "Throne" that happens to be on water. This in turn is a parallel to descriptions of Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, who created the universe as we know it through Brahma. There is also a verse in the Bible to the effect that the Spirit of God was on the water. It seems that religions have the same basic ideas at it's roots.

 

 

The best answer that any one can give you, regarding 'the Concept of Almighty God in Islam',is quote to you the Surah(Chapter) of the Holy Qur'an, Surah Ikhlas(The Purity), Chapter No. 112, Verse No. 1 to 4, which says:

 

"Say: He is Allah the One and Only;

Allah the Eternal Absolute;

He begetteth not nor is He begotten;

And there is none like unto Him."

 

Similar to the message that is given in the Holy Qur'an in Surah Anam, Chapter No.6 Verse No.103

"No vision can grasp Him, but He grasps all vision, He is beyond comprehension, yet He is acquainted with all things".

 

This sums up the whole argument and warns us specially against Anthropomorphism (taking human forms), the tendency to conceive of Allah after our own pattern, an insidous tendency that creeps in at all times and among all peoples.

 

 

These Quranic verses prove nothing. They simply prove that the Almighty Allah is indeed the greatest, and there is none like Him. No one is disputing that, but I'm afraid that I must disagree with your speculative interpretation that these verses warn us againt anthropomorphism. Firstly, again, no one is saying that Allah is a human, and secondly, there is no mention (or warning) against anthropomorphism in the verses that you have quoted. It is indeed true that Allah has a spiritual form. Prophet Muhummad himself saw it on at least two occasions. Else how can you explain these verses from the Qur`an:

 

Allah has eyes: "Allah sees well whatever you do" - Quran 2.265

 

"Narrated Abdullah bin Umar: Allah's Messenger said, 'On the Day of Judgement Allah will not look at him who drags his robe (behind him) out of conceit.'" - Here is evidence from the Propher Muhummad himself that Allah will not look at proud people on the Day of Judgement. If Allah looks at some people and doe snot look at others, this means Allah has eyes to look.

 

Allah can hear: "It is He who hears all things, and is ever near." - Quran 34.50

"Allah is Hearer, Knower." - Quran 2.224

 

Also, the story contained in Quran 2.30-39 shows how Allah speaks freely to Adam, Iblis (Satan) and the angels.

 

Allah has a face: "Send not away those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking His Face." - Quran 6.52

"Those who patiently persevere, seeking the Face of their Lord." - Quran 13.22

"Keep yourself along with those who call in their Lord morning and evening, seeking His Face." - Quran 18.28

"To Allah belong the East and the West, and wherever you turn, there is Allah's Face." - Quran 2.115

"Everything will perish except His Face." - Quran 28.88

 

Also, the prominent Muslim scholar Al-Ashari (circa 9th Century AD) declared in his creeds: "We confess that Allah has a face without asking how."

 

Allah has hands: "Say; Generosity is in Allah's hands!" - Quran 3.73

"He [Allah] said: O Iblis! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with My hands?" - Quran 38.75

"The hand of Allah is above their hands." - Quran 48.10

 

Again, Al-Ashari says: "We confess that Allah has two hands without asking how."

 

Allah has an image: "Allah's is the Sublime Similitude." - Quran 16.60

"It is He Who produces creation, then reproduces it and for Him it is most easy. To Him belongs the Sublime Similitude in the heavens and the earth." - Quran 30.27

 

[The word 'masal' means similitude, resemblance, likeness, image.]

 

Allah can be seen: "Some faces, that Day, will beam, looking towards their Lord." - Quran 75.22-23]

 

"Once the Prophet said: Those believers who are in the highest honour with Allah will see His Divine Face morning and evening and compared to this all other pleasures of Paradise will be lightly esteemed and forgotten."

 

[it is also confirmed in many Hadiths that Allah will be seen personally by those who gain access to Paradise.]

 

I suppose you now get the point, that Allah certainly has a spiritual form that is capable of interacting with His devotees. This refutes the popular notion that Islam propounds the idea of a "formless God" which is just simply untrue. Rest assured, the verses I have quoted are just the tip of the iceberg and that there are many more quotes throughout the Islamic literature that can be employed to support further points. My personal favourite was the original one regarding the 'Garbhodakasayi Vishnu' idea.

 

 

And coming to your second part of discussion, bro Vaishnav talks about that he came across arguments of someone with some Pathans, who is trying to give some Image to al mighty God. I Just want to say Mr.Vaishnav the same thing what The Quran says in chapter 2 and verse 111 "...Produce your PROOF if Ye are truthful" Produce the proof Mr. Vaishnav if you are truthful!!!

 

 

I am working on it. In the meantime, you can simply read Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya-Lila Chapter 18.

 

 

Let us glance into hindu scriptures..

 

It is mentioned in the verse of the Sweta Sutara Upanishads, Chapter 4 Verse 20, that "His form cannot be seen, No one can see Him with the eyes"

 

 

Atah sri krishna namadi

na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

 

"The divine form of Sri Krishna cannot be cognised through the blunt material senses." - Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu

 

What's your point?

 

The point is clear: God/Allah certainly is in possession of a form that is not the same as that of a human, but is perfectly spiritual and is only capable of being viewed by those who have attained the required qualifications, namely love.

 

My intense researches into Islam and its literatures have compelled me to make the statement that the religion of Islam as a whole is on the platform of dasya-rasa, the bliss of servantship to Allah/Krishna.

 

There is also a slight semblance of sakhya-rasa, the platform of friendship with God.

 

I hope some of your questions have been answered.

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

We have heard nothing back from the Koran so am I to take it the Koran is silent on what the Kingdom of God is like?

 

 

My readings into the Quran and Hadiths assure me that they do indeed contain descriptions of Paradise/Heaven.

 

What bothers me though, is that I have seen choice verses that describe the entrants into Heaven as taking the form of green parrots. This means that if we enter "Islamic Heaven," our forms will be like that as green parrots.

 

This is obviously against the descriptions that Srila Prabhupada gave us, that we will have humanlike spiritual forms to associate with Krishna, unless of course the Islamic verse is describing the state of santa-rasa, in which case it will be perfectly adequate to have the body of a green parrot, or a cow, or a monkey, or whatever.