Oh my God 2

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

Are there any Acharyas currently embodied and if so how do you know for sure? I have no doubt that Srila Prabhupada was the real deal but how exactly do you know on future ones?

[theist]

There are so many things to look for character etc. But here is the thing. How can you trust your own evaluation? Considering our present conditioned position we are vulnerable to being cheated by a faker(that we have seen) or mistake the real thing as false.

 

I see no alternative then requesting the necessary sincerity for spiritual life from the Lord in the heart. Ask Him to reveal Himself both internaly and externaly. And stay alert and receptive for the answer.

 

This always makes for a nice thread of its own.

 

"I dwelling in the heart as Supersoul destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge, the darkness born of ignorance"

[Guest guest]

 

"whatever happened to laughter ?"

 

what are you guys freaked out about ?

 

some people make some suggestions, then you run around

"the sky is falling ,the sky is falling"..

 

When Srila Prabhupada allowed women to live in the ashram, engage in arcana, give class, etc,

this was revolutionary to the tradionalists

and many criticized .

 

Just because some people have a problem with

some comments by Srila Prabhupada that can be easily

misunderstood by the conditioned souls, doesn't mean

that the message of the Bhagavatam has been

changed.

 

If some people would rather chant the maha mantra

in a slightly different way, it's not going to

hurt anyone, it's better then chanting nothing.

 

If some people want to change the GBC and install

some kind of pollitically correct type of affirmative action ,so what ?

 

Are you going to change your belief,is anyone else ?

what is the problem ?

 

These people are expressing their ideas for better

or worse, they are being guided by paramatma,

as we all are..

 

There are many different ways Mahaprabhus mercy

is flowing down, and some may disagree with others.

 

Some may disagree with the ritvik guys, they may disagree with everyone else, some may disagree with

Narayan Maharaja's emphasis on rasa lila, some may disagree with ISKCON making changes in Srila Prabhupada's

books, some may disagree with initiating people

who walk in off the street, but many gurus have done that, some may disagree with with so many things.

 

what of it ?

 

Sri Krishna Caitanya is still in control,

We all need to lighten up and encourage the neophyte,

they are acting under the modes of passion and

goodness, doing what they believe is the right thing,

i think it's better for them to have an outlet for

their expression then to try and bar them from

taking part in the transcendental activities

of Sri Caitanyas mission.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Are there any Acharyas currently embodied and if so how do you know for sure? I have no doubt that Srila Prabhupada was the real deal but how exactly do you know on future ones?

 

There are so many symptoms of an acharya like example but generally, "by their fruits ye shall know them"

[theist]

guest please start a separate thread for the important questions you raise. It really deserves a thread dedicated just to that. Actually i'll do that now.please look for it and many here will have answers to you questions.

[theist]

The point is about changing what Prabhupada has given us. Not about inclusion directly.

 

This is also not about neophytes vs. the more experienced. was vipramukya swami a neophyte? perhaps in one sense, but this person had power and influence.

 

Also the ideas expressed are not all new.

 

You put out more questions while ignoring ones that have been direct towards you.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Srila Prabhupada has given his followers a direct instruction not to change his books. Those who claim to follow him should obey his instructions.

 

 

One time Yasodanandan Prabhu was reading Sri Isopanisad when Srila Prabhupada stopped him and asked him to reread the last paragraph. After hearing it again Srila Prabhupada said, "Those are not my words! They are changing my words! Is my English not good enough?" Srila Prabhupada became very angry and continued, "This is the worst thing a disciple can do! Do not become like a leap frog and try to jump over the spiritual master thinking you know better than him. Tell them immediately [the editors] do not change my words!"

 

 

 

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

Are there any Acharyas currently embodied and if so how do you know for sure? I have no doubt that Srila Prabhupada was the real deal but how exactly do you know on future ones?

 

 

Gour Govinda Swami used to say that the next Acharya will appear after 1996.

 

Don't know about any current one, but there will be some around but the problem is that they are very hard to recognise, and even if they are right in front of our faces we may not be able to recognise them due to our material conditioning.

[Guest guest]

i dodn't mean to give an impression that I agree

with everything they are saying or believe, just that

many people need to have a place to express their

thoughts on Krishna consciousness without fear

of being labeled a deviant or whatever, by the

association of the vaisnava community clarification

will be brought out, for all to benefit.

[theist]

shiva , it was understood what you were saying. You were speaking up for Krsna consciousness being all-inclusive, which by definition it is.

 

What they are doing is proposing to change the very nature of that asociation by weakening its foundation. Whimisically changing the writings of Srila Prabhupada is a prime example. Their PC agenda shouldn't be tolerated.

 

If we accept the program that Prabhupada laid out already we will find it is already inclusive to every soul. Our whimical participation in the matter is not required.

[Guest guest]

 

 

many people may be offended by some of what Srila Prabhupada

said, due to not understanding the transcendental nature

of Sri Guru, what is to be done ?

Should there not be a place or association where those

people can continue their activities of Krishna consciousness ?

 

The changes they want are certainly not important in the whole scheme of things, I don't think they propose

to change tattva, just some comments that they cannot

tolerate and causes them a lack of faith in

the rest of Srila Prabhupadas writings.

 

As far as the GBC, obviously they are stating a position

that is not inherently wrong, just a bit

over thought.

 

I wrote them a letter(they didn't publish),

saying that the GBC is not for any purpose

other then helping the temples and the mission of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I said the GBC is not like a parliament,or senate,

where devotees become bosses of ISKCON, rather

it's purpose is to be the servants and helpers of ISKCON,

to find ways to help with finances, resources,

etc.

 

i think they expect the GBC to be a type of government

for ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada set it up to reduce

the burden of management, the task of assisting,

not the task of ruling.

 

Therefore they want some voice for their concerns

in the GBC, I told them , that was not it's purpose,

it is for assisting not governing,even though it's called the governing board, it is meant not as an authority,

like a Guru, it is meant as a tool to assist the Temples and vaisnava community in Srila Prabhupadas

mission.

 

they should be allowed to voice their concerns,

what they desire isn't so far fetched, just

the thoughts of seemingly sincere people,

desirous of pushing foward ISKCON ,

with proper education without a condescending

attitude to offend them, they can be of service

and give their energy to fullfill Srila Prabhupadas

vision.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

If we accept the program that Prabhupada laid out already we will find it is already inclusive to every soul. Our whimical participation in the matter is not required.

 

This is well said Theist.

Unfortunately some people need external institutions to be able to accept and see that, but when those institutions develop I think the point Siva is getting at is that the institutions tend to misinterpret the essence say of the word Karmi that Prabhupad mentioned, to mean Karmi dog, a crude example, but one that illustrates where sectarianism can creep in and erode a divine ideal.

But still it is just not recommended to have kanista adhikharis with bodily conceptions, anywhere near the helm of a ship.

I was talking to a godbrother last night and he mentioned everyone is lacking in some way, but regardless of that everyone still likes to feel they are guardians of the Truth.

[theist]

shiva:>"many people may be offended by some of what Srila Prabhupada

said, due to not understanding the transcendental nature

of Sri Guru, what is to be done ?<

 

They'll have to grow in understanding.

 

>Should there not be a place or association where those

people can continue their activities of Krishna consciousness ?<

 

That is what temples are for. Anyone can go, chant, take maha-prasad, discuss shastra. What is lacking? Certainly there must be an atmosphere present where all feel welcome.

 

>The changes they want are certainly not important in the whole scheme of things, I don't think they propose

to change tattva, just some comments that they cannot

tolerate and causes them a lack of faith in

the rest of Srila Prabhupadas writings.<

 

Well I may disagree here. Changing Prabhupada's books so that the books reflect my thinking on any particular issue is a serious matter. It is highly offensive. If they give up the false bodily identification their problems with what they read will dissipate. I know this is easier said then done. But look these teaching are there to correct us, not that we are here to correct them. Everyone finds things that are difficult to accept, or even they may choose not to accept something. Take the essence and leave the rest. But no one should be allowed to change anything.

 

Did Prabhupada institute a GBC made up of some % of this and some percentage of that? X amount must be women, x amount must be homosexuals, x amount must be from this racial group or that one? No he didn't. Those are his books. ISKCON is his instituiton. End of story.

 

There will always be enough problems that come along, why go out of the way to create more. People are free to form their own societies with a different agenda. galva is a good example. They are separatists and by forming their group around maintaining homosexuality they are creating divisions and will confuse the public by their presentations. But they have the freedom to do that. That is what the material world is based on. Others have the freedom to speak out in opposition.

 

Why can't people just come to the temple, chant feast and be satisfied? They now feel they have to display their particular brand of false indentity and have that accepted by consensus. Why? What does it matter? Why should it even come up in a general assembly?

 

>As far as the GBC, obviously they are stating a position

that is not inherently wrong, just a bit

over thought.<

 

You know the present structure of the current GBC is unknown to me. They lost all relevance for me when Prabhupada left. Same with ISKCON as an institution for the most part. But I do hope the best for them. To the degree that they line up with Prabhupada's wishes to that degree they will be successful in helping others towards Krsna. So to that extent I care.

 

>I wrote them a letter(they didn't publish),

saying that the GBC is not for any purpose

other then helping the temples and the mission of Srila Prabhupada.<

 

Who did you write? Chakra?

 

I said the GBC is not like a parliament,or senate,

where devotees become bosses of ISKCON, rather

it's purpose is to be the servants and helpers of ISKCON,

to find ways to help with finances, resources,

etc.

 

i think they expect the GBC to be a type of government

for ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada set it up to reduce

the burden of management, the task of assisting,

not the task of ruling.

 

Therefore they want some voice for their concerns

in the GBC, I told them , that was not it's purpose,

it is for assisting not governing,even though it's called the governing board, it is meant not as an authority,

like a Guru, it is meant as a tool to assist the Temples and vaisnava community in Srila Prabhupadas

mission.

 

>they should be allowed to voice their concerns,

what they desire isn't so far fetched, just

the thoughts of seemingly sincere people,

desirous of pushing foward ISKCON ,

with proper education without a condescending

attitude to offend them, they can be of service

and give their energy to fullfill Srila Prabhupadas

vision.<

 

Well, I see them as desirous of making ISKCON over in their image, and pushing THAT on.

 

Hare Krsna shiva

 

 

 

[theist]

I agree Guest at 6:06.

[theist]

Looks like its more than few misguided people.

 

 

 

From another board:

 

 

 

There was a meeting in LA of a 16 member Strategic Planning Team (SSPT). This group was formed to assess the state and future dierection of iskcon's preaching and social issues in North America. They produced a survey and sent it out to devotees across NA. The survey was completed end of Nov and the team of 16 met in LA to assess it and start charting NA Iskcon's future course. Ameyatma das (12-23-02)

 

 

I do not know who all 16 members were, but amoung them were Svavas, Gopal Bhatta, Rabindra Swarup and BhaktiMarg S. We are told that Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu made a statement something to the effect that Srila Prabhupada's books should not be distributed at colleges and universities. Apparently he felt it would be better to distribute "transitional" KC books (that he and others will or have written) as he states they would be better received by students today. It seems he feels that SP's statements on social issues, such as women must be submissive and always dependent upon a man (a father, husband, or elder son - SP has written many times that women are not to be given independence, and has written that women are less intelligent then men, etc) offend too many of the students and are therefore a hindrance to "the" preaching mission. As politically correct as that may sound, the logic has a few large flaws. Such as how is it that Srila Prabhupad's own preaching, in the form of his own books, has now become a hinderence to his own preaching mission???? Or, is it Rabindra Swarup's preaching mission that is hindered??? And, when i was speaking about this to my family and mentioned how they wanted to stop distributing SP's books so as to not offend the non-devotees, my 8 year old son, Lal Krsna, immediately said, "But, Pita Sri, they are offending Srila Prabhupad". Yes. Even my 8 yr old son could clearly see this in a flash. They have become DEMON Crazy. Check the Vox Populi in Iskcon, oh, the non-devotee population is offended by dharma issues, offended about SP's stand on the Gay issue, so, lets keep Prabhupad's books on the shelves and lets write our own books and distribute them instead, after all we don't want to hinder the preaching by putting Prabhupad's books out there. We don't want to offend the beligerent faithless non-devotees, no matter how utterly vile we offend our spiritual master. Offending Radharani's pure servant, Srila Prabhupad, no big deal, but we must not offend the atheistic adharmic feminists or the gays and lesbians, etc.

Demon crazy. Rather then the head leading, giving direction and guidance, we have the head of iskcon following their ass to toilet while their own ass is excreting stool in their own faces. Current GBC management Ki-Jail. (yes, that is jai with an "L" on the end)

 

I was told that no one made any objection to this proposal, except Svavas, who expressed his bitter disagreement and then resigned as a member of the group.

 

Then, Bhakti Marg Swami went even further. Outside the meeting, but while in LA, he approached Sura of the BBT with his own solution to the women's issues in ISKCON. He said that since so many mataji devotees are offended by certain statements in SP's books, like being less intelligent, like SP said that women must not be given leadership positions, that women are to remain submissive and subordinate to a man, etc., BhaktiMarge Swami advocated to Sura that ALL of SP's books should be RE-EDITED and all the OFFENDING and Controversial issues be removed in order to make them acceptable to all thso those offending Prabhu that SP's books should be edited to remove all such controversial issues that have offended both women both inside and outside of iskcon. Sura, I am informed, also rejected the suggestion.

 

The thing is, of course there have been matajis who have been cruely abused, and sometimes unscrupulous 'devotee' men took advantage of different instructions SP gave to perpetrate their attrocities. That is true with the gurukula children as well. I mean, it was true with anyone and everyone who was mistreated by any GBC or TP who misused their authority. It is true in modern America as well. I recall reading how their was a click going on in the LA police Dept some yrs ago in which different officers would pull over young girls and start writing them up, then ask them to perform a trick on them, and they would let them go. That is abuse of authority, but, does that mean that you disband the whole police dept? No, you enforce the other laws that are already there and you properly deal with the bad elements. Same, Vedic culture and SP promotes only the protection of women. If someone misuses one part of SP's teachings for their own andangrisement and in the process wrongly abuses someone, there are scriptural injunctions to deal with this, so we must take care of the bad elements, but we do not wholesale reject Vedic culture.

 

All of SP's instructions regarding the position of the women in society are based on the Vedic Science - dharma shastra - manu samhita. Krsna Himself taught the law of dharma to the SunGod 120 million yrs ago, and it was passed down to Manu and written as the Manu Samhita. SP based those "offending" and controversial teachings on Dharma-Shastra. On Vedic Science. If we edit them out, what do we replace our social standards with? The UN charters on human rights? The US Supreme Court rulings? The Taliban's version of Islamic Law???? The views of Gay and Lesbian groups? NOW and other feminist's views? What will become the basis of our social principles? SP gave us HIS teachings, which are based strictly on the Vedic Science of Dharma.

 

Those who propose such abominable acts are possesed of hellish consciosness. They are exhibiting their long-standing faithlessness in the words and teachings of their guru, the great Founder-Acharya, Srila Prabhupad.

 

So, there are more and more devotees who are now seeing the reality. But, I am telling them, it is no different then 1985 when Ramesvar told me that SP's instructions were outdated, no longer relavant, that i was to accept one of the NEW acharyas and follow them (To which i stood up shaking with anger and blasted him verbally, my fall down is that i did not tear his tongue out - Agni dev was in the room and when i stood up and began shouting at the top of my lungs, he got up and left. Ramesvar's discples who were present, i thought would jump on me and beat me up, instead, they just sat their speachless. Ramesvar ceased the FATE project after that, and ordered me to get out of iskcon. i told him, i am not leaving, it's time for you to leave. A year latter he was gone. But, the same disease is still going on. Nothing has changed. The same disease, lack of faith in SP's teachings. Like when SP was on his dying bed and asked the GBC to tell ALL his disciples to come to his bed side. Instead, Ramesvar and others met and decided that the mass of devotees must NOT be allowed to hear that instruction. So, Ramesvar left india and came back to LA and told everyone that SP has asked that No One Leave, No one go to India, that SP wanted everyone to remain engaged in their services. So much lack of faith. Privately Ramesvar spoke with me about this, he was boasting how he had SAVED Prabhupad's misison. He was saying that if everyone had heard that instruction by SP that all the book distributors would have gone. Their would have been no more money coming in to pay the mortgages. And, since no one knew just how long SP may keep hanging on, it could drain ALL of iskcon's resources if everyone ran off to Prabhupad's bed side. So, in his galliant effort to SAVE iskcon, he purposefuly lied to us, rather then passing on SP's instruction that EVERYONE come to India and be by his bed side, instead, Ramesvar left Prabhupad's bed side and came to LA and used Prabhupad's name lying to us that SP did not want us to go. Still, Ramesvar gloated how by doing this he saved (prabhupad's ??? ) iskcon. No, what it was is that Ramesvar feared that if all the devotees go to india and book distribution, ie the money coming into the BBT stops, and temples, like LA, cannot make their mortgage payments, then what will be left for him when SP leaves????? That was the REAL ,motive.

 

And, i have wondered in connection with the poison controversy,,,,, Ramesvar told me how he and other GBC were fearing that so many devotees were leaving their services, money was becoming an issue, temples were loosing their biggest money makers, i mean book distributors, they were fearing, they had no idea how long SP may hang on. If he kept hanging on for many more months, and word gets out that SP wants everyone to come,, then all the temples will be lost - there won't be anything left over for them. So, that would have been a big motive to push along the process and make sure SP hurries up and leaves his body ASAP, and stop lingering on.... Just some thought.

 

ys ameyatma das

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sri Prabhupada was very critical about changing original message that came down in parampara.

It was a big NO NO for him.

 

Once you start changing, you never know where you land over time, because almost every one wants to make a change to suit them.

 

There are different kinds of people who want original message chaged:

 

- Some think it is wrong, and try to give correct interpretation. Their motive is good, but their judgement is wrong if the original source is authentic and correct.

 

- Some delibertely come to misinterpret to cause faiure of the message or the mission. Their motives are mean.

 

Any way those who know the truth, should hold it, live by it, and spread it abundently. A truth is of no use if it is not spread in this age of information warfare. The asuras know this, and they spread their false propaganda and delude the public so that the asuras can do well their agenda. The suras need to counter it by spreading the truth and seva to the public.

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

[livingentity]

Where and when will it stop?

 

The attitude is "I was not too long ago a meat-eating, drug ingesting, intoxicant addicted demon and now after a few short years I know more and better than my life-long vaisnava spiritual master. Come follow me for I am politically correct".

 

I am sickened by this. It was one thing when the little splinter groups were campaigning for the ridiculous changes but now within Prabhupada's organization!!

 

 

[theist]

Very scary indeed. And these I guess are the supposed top of the ISKCON ladder.

 

I am certainly not opposing Prabhupada's disciples writing their own books and targeting specific groups. I believe that is what Prabhupada wanted actually. Look at Svarupa Damodhar.

 

Let them start their own mathas instead of feeding off what Prabhupada built.

 

It is the changing of Prabhupada's works that I strenuously object to.

 

I hope Prabhupada's disciples will more and more offer their oppositon to this.

 

 

[livingentity]

I'm also not opposed to them writing their own books but to change Prabhupada's books or to say that His writings are detrimental to the spread of Krsna Consciousness is a gross offense.

 

I have read many books by disciples of Prabhupada that were wonderful and greatly helped my enthusiasm being right in line with Prabhupada's teachings. I have tried to encourage a few who have not written their memoirs etc yet to please do so that the rest of us can share their beautiful memories of Prabhupada and His teachings and of how it was in the beginning.

 

I have heard that when some of Prabhupada's disciples object to the changes - then life is made difficult for them. No wonder there are so many of Prabhupada's disciples who do not step foot into the temples anymore and do the best they can to serve on their own.

[ethos]

Now this is a man after my own heart:

 

"We don't want to offend the beligerent faithless non-devotees, no matter how utterly vile we offend our spiritual master. Offending Radharani's pure servant, Srila Prabhupad, no big deal, but we must not offend the atheistic adharmic feminists or the gays and lesbians, etc.

Demon crazy. Rather then the head leading, giving direction and guidance, we have the head of iskcon following their ass to toilet while their own ass is excreting stool in their own faces. Current GBC management Ki-Jail. (yes, that is jai with an "L" on the end)"

 

I'm just wondering why none of you civil devotees are complaining about it. You have to see my avatar on it?

 

Play the game.

[livingentity]

Theist,

 

Where did this come from? I am interested in following this further.

[Guest guest]

In light of the fact that Iskcon's leaders actually consider that Srila Prabhupada's books should either be changed or left out of libraries and Universities, I am re-considering my perhaps hasty judgement of the so-called "GHQ" group, whom many have labelled as a mysogynist group. I don't know that much about them, except that they are members of Iskcon who wish to preserve Srila Prabhupada's teachings and not dilute them simply to be politically correct. They may be extremists, (at least, that's what the pc folks say about them), but compared to what I've been hearing from Iskcon management and 'reformers' like Maria Eckstrand and the like, the GHQ seems somewhat tame.

 

This is the reason I didn't like Jayadwaita Swami's editing of the Bhagavad Gita. It set a precedent, that the books can indeed be revised with permission from the GBC. With this precedent in hand, no doubt they will be revised again. And again. Until they meet the expectations of today's and tomorrow's generations of Iskcon followers.

 

What a shame though. The reason most devotees joined in the first place was because Srila Prabhupada didn't compromise, he didn't water down the philosophy in order to accumulate followers. He told it like it is, and all he asked for was one moon, not a tinsel bright-light spectacle of shooting stars.

[theist]

livingentity, it was here: http://krishna.org/

 

It is up to the mass (us)to let these people know this won't be tolerated

[livingentity]

I have not looked at that site for a few weeks. Thanks for reminding me of it.

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

This is the reason I didn't like Jayadwaita Swami's editing of the Bhagavad Gita. It set a precedent, that the books can indeed be revised with permission from the GBC. With this precedent in hand, no doubt they will be revised again. And again. Until they meet the expectations of today's and tomorrow's generations of Iskcon followers.

 

 

Let us try and be fair. Jayadvaita Swami has years of editorial experience, having edited Back To Godhead magazine for most of his devotional life, and today gives classes on writing. He is by nature a transparent preacher who "tells it like it is" and does not compromise the philosophy. Very straightforward person.

 

Regarding Bhagavad-gita, Jayadvaita Maharaj is in possession of the original manuscripts of BG that were personally typed out by Srila Prabhupada, and he has made the revisions according to these manuscripts. Recently he posted an article on CHAKRA (before it went haywire) advertising a URL that fully analysed sections in the original manuscripts and the present edition. i could understand what a hard task it must have been to do all that translation.

 

I am not endorsing the changing and re-editing of Srila Prabhupada's books and I fully stand against it. But it seems that there is a point of revisions are made only according to what Srila Prabhupada originally wrote in his own manuscripts, right? In that way, the revisions only bring us closer to what Srila Prabhupada meant?

 

But I do agree with you about the 'precedent' issue. Jayadvaita Swami has set a precedent, this is unarguable. Jayadvaita Swami may have had a reason to "authentically" revise BG according to the original manuscripts, but the fact that it may be revised again whimsically is indeed a worry.