Oh my God 2

[theist]

Is it possible that some of what was translated was in line with the manuscripts and others not?

 

Why after all these years of people requesting all that was changed so that we can make up our own minds has that not been brought forth?

 

"Just trust me" doesn't work for me. Now when I read those new editions I am plagued with doubt on if I am reading Prabhupada or some altered facsimile.

[atma]

The meeting was here in LA. I'm not involved with the temple but I noticed few Maharajas and TP's around. I'll ask Sura about it. Knowing how things are going I believe the report from Ameyatma.

 

I think that most of the people who write books are in a ego trip,in the same way like Satsvarupa's "art". One of my friends showed it to a psychologist and said exactly the same of what I thought. He got a few issues. Sura was screaming his head off when I pointed out to him that Sat's art was in the BBT website. He explained to me that the website was run by BTG (with funds from BBT) and Pranada is some kind of disciple of Satsvarupa M.He never saw the "art" until I showed it to him. I don't know if they did something about it.

 

Some people may get offended for what I wrote but they're too many offenses against Srila Prabhupada going around and they are growing by the minute.

 

In the 70's when the movement was so succesful, the same people who is criticizing now,became devotees with Srila Prabhupada's books.

They are too many offenses against vaisnavas who are not in Iskcon an I think that is making them obtuse. "We arenot making devotees because of what Prabhupada wrote, we are not succesful anymore, the fault is not with us, it is Prabhupada's fault". Very envious mentality.

[ethos]

Guest, you stated:

 

"This is the reason I didn't like Jayadwaita Swami's editing of the Bhagavad Gita. It set a precedent, that the books can indeed be revised with permission from the GBC. With this precedent in hand, no doubt they will be revised again. And again. Until they meet the expectations of today's and tomorrow's generations of Iskcon followers."

 

So as some have done, we should all know what the originals are and personally preserve them in our own archives to preserve Prabhupada's presence.

 

Likewise, I think it is prudent for JNdas and favorable devotees to do likewise with any original texts or copies of texts that exist in Inida from the Vedas, etc.

 

These literatures need to be protected as if they were God Himself.

[stonehearted]

When I joined, it was because of the sankirtan (street chanting, as Srila Prabhupada called it), along with the REAL original Bhagavad-gita As It Is (the little blue one from MacMillan) and the Delhi Bhagavatams. Although there were still plenty of mistakes ("planet of trees,cattle raising"), we saw the new editions as wonderful. Much of the editing in the unabridged 1972 MacMillan edition of BG was done by MacMillan staff. Should we preserve those because you consider this late Bhagavad-gita as "the original"?

 

I understand the cause of the concern, but I think we should all study everything carefully and in context. It's a fact that Srila Prabhupada said different things to different peopla at different times in different contexts. Picking one quotation as THE definitive instruction creates problems. This can be seen in Ameyatma's preaching that practicing polygamy as an essential element of spreading Krishna consciousness.

[theist]

Stone,

 

They are proposing changing or deleting Prabhupada's statements to fit in with present political correct thinking. That doesn't seem to bother you. Why?

[stonehearted]

thiest wrote: They are proposing changing or deleting Prabhupada's statements to fit in with present political correct thinking. That doesn't seem to bother you. Why?

 

Oh, you're responding to the meeting Ameyatma says happened in LA. I was reponding to the outrage about the editing that has been done over the last 20 years or so.

 

I don't know anything about the meeting in LA. The only thing I know is what Ameyatma said, as posted here. I have a hard time taking anything Ameyatma writes seriously. I have had considerable experience with him; I often wonder whether his sloppy writing doesn't reflect slopy thinking, as is often the case. (Relax--I'm an English professor with training in rhetoric, so this is second nature for me, and I don't mean it in an ad hominem sense.) I also have a hard time taking anyone too seriously who uses the term "politically correct" with a straight face. This is a shibboleth of fanatics on the right and expresses nothing more than dogma. In fact, it does concern me that the devotees you mention actually propose changing Prabhupada's books in this way. But I'd have to know more about what was actually discussed before I went off calling them pashandis.

 

Regarding the meeting, perhaps I can find out more by asking my friend Dravida, who is a senior editor with the BBT.

[Guest guest]

"This is a shibboleth of fanatics on the right and expresses nothing more than dogma."

 

Not sure what shibboleth is, (impressive vocabulary, by the way, even for an English Prof!), but from what I have been reading, both here and elsewhere, there seems to be a rather strong coalition on the *far left* as well, folks who believe Srila Prabhupada was actually "offensive" in his presentation of the Bhagavad Gita and other books, with regards to his views on women and varnashrama dharma, etc. I think that is the real concern being addressed here. Jayadvaita's editing of the Gita was mentioned because it set a precedent. If the books can be revised once, they can be revised twice.

 

"I have a hard time taking anything Ameyatma writes seriously."

 

This appears to be a subjective consideration. I have a hard time taking anything Jayadvaita Swami writes seriously. When Srila Gour Govinda Swami left the planet, Jayadvaita made some not-so-flattering remarks in his BTG shortly afterwards, and it was my humble opinion that Gour Govinda Swami was a pure devotee, and by far the most elevated Vaishnava leader within Iskcon at the time. I felt he deserved a far better eulogy than what he received from the Swami. Well, not just the Swami, but many of the other leaders at the time, who were critical of Sripad Gour Govinda Swami and his preaching.

 

"I also have a hard time taking anyone too seriously who uses the term "politically correct" with a straight face."

 

Probably the "conservatives" within Iskcon have been subjected to buzz-words like "mysogonists" and "fanatics" to the extent where they feel they must respond with a buzz-word of their own, e.g "politically correct." If there's a better word (or phrase) for "pc" please feel free to propose one. Otherwise, it's just a case of semantics, really.

 

[theist]

 

"I also have a hard time taking anyone too seriously who uses the term "politically correct" with a straight face."

 

 

 

Visit my town some time Stone, Berkeley Ca. and you can get a dose of PC straight up.

 

Trying to find out where you stand on this issue, if I may.

 

Prabhupada's writings on women for instance. Do you support going through his books and editing out his words (thoughts, concepts)?

 

How about the homosex demons that attacked Lord Brahma? Should we "cleanse" Prabhupada's purport where he refers to them as demons?

 

We are not talking about sentence structure here.

[ethos]

Stonehearted, I am not surprised you have trouble with this because you are an English teacher.

 

I would call the originals anything Prabhupada authorized to copy and print. And even some of these were suspect because Prabhupada discovered and demanded the changes be reverted to his original prose.

 

I don't know enough of the process and history to make judgements myself. But there are those who do and should intelligently act if they haven't already.

 

Again, anything Prabhupada authorized as his own material is bona-fide. The rest... ? But let's keep the originals preserved without adulteration.

[stonehearted]

1. A word or phrase identified with a particular group or cause; a catchword.

 

So you understood the word from its context, even though it was a new word for you.

 

Both extremes, right and left, seem more interested in being right than in actually bringing others ot Krishna consciousness. If we stretch our minds a little, it's not hard to see how liberal Srila Prabhupada was. I won't go through the litany of reforms he introduced; it's extensive. I remember hearing once that he chuckled and said something like, "Mr. Ginsberg thinks I'm conservative, but he dowsn't know how liberal I am."

 

[stonehearted]

theist wrote: Visit my town some time Stone, Berkeley Ca. and you can get a dose of PC straight up.

 

What pervades Berzerkely is liberalism, and quite often socialism, often run rampant. PC is a code word introduced by the right some time in the '80s to cast aspersions on any thought to the left of Ronald Reagan by alluding to Soviet communism. Over-reliance on such buzzwords betrays sloppy thinking (at best) and/or party zeal.

 

theist: Trying to find out where you stand on this issue, if I may. Prabhupada's writings on women for instance. Do you support going through his books and editing out his words (thoughts, concepts)? How about the homosex demons that attacked Lord Brahma? Should we "cleanse" Prabhupada's purport where he refers to them as demons?

 

stone: I've already answered this. I have read what Madhusudani and others have written, and I doubt they will carry the day. I have also read what Ameyatma, Trivikrama Swami, Jivan Mukta and other "conservatives" have written, and I've also commented on those at both extremes of this conflict. And I know for a fact that no one with any power gives a damn what I think on the matter.

 

There are devotees who have better things to do than argue about some of these things. yeah, yeah, I know--preserve purity, etc. Both sides can rationalize their persistence in quarreling about this or that, but it may be just Kali's trick to distract us from our real business: sadhusanga, nama-kirtan, bhagavat-sravan, mathura-vasa, sri murtira shraddaya shravana. But if someone wants to go ahead and repeat their side's battle cry, I certainly have no power to stop them.

 

Gotta go chant. Sorry.

[theist]

Well I thought the questions were pretty straightforward and I haven't seen your position on them presented before. Sorry.

 

I was interseted in how YOU feel about them not your evaluation of how others feel.

 

By the way I find the term PC to be very illustrative and clear in its meaning.

 

I just saw the movie 1984 last night. Newspeak is endline result of PCism.

 

 

[theist]

When they start cleansing Srila Prabhupada's books they will surely have to decide on this one.

 

Should we just strike out the purport? It's small maybe no one will notice.

 

TRANSLATION

Lord Brahma, approaching the Lord, addressed Him thus: My Lord, please protect me from these sinful demons, who were created by me under Your order. They are infuriated by an appetite for sex and have come to attack me.

 

PURPORT

It appears here that the homosexual appetite of males for each other is created in this episode of the creation of the demons by Brahma. In other words, the homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life.

 

Should it remain as it is? Or should we 451 it?

 

 

[theist]

Great book. Here is the plot overview so the reference will make sense in relation to our present topic

 

Plot Overview

 

Guy Montag is a fireman who burns books in a futuristic American city. In Montag's world, firemen start fires rather than putting them out. The people in this society do not read books, enjoy nature, spend time by themselves, think independently, or have meaningful conversations. Instead, they drive very fast, watch excessive amounts of television on wall-size sets, and listen to the radio on "Seashell Radio" sets attached to their ears.

 

Montag encounters a gentle seventeen-year-old girl named Clarisse McClellan, who opens his eyes to the emptiness of his life with her innocently penetrating questions and her unusual love of people and nature. Over the next few days, Montag experiences a series of disturbing events. First, his wife, Mildred, attempts suicide by swallowing a bottle of sleeping pills. Then, when he responds to an alarm that an old woman has a stash of hidden literature, the woman shocks him by choosing to be burned alive along with her books. A few days later, he hears that Clarisse has been killed by a speeding car. Montag's dissatisfaction with his life increases, and he begins to search for a solution in a stash of books that he has stolen from his own fires and hidden inside an air-conditioning vent.

 

When Montag fails to show up for work, his fire chief, Beatty, pays a visit to his house. Beatty explains that it's normal for a fireman to go through a phase of wondering what books have to offer, and he delivers a dizzying monologue explaining how books came to be banned in the first place. According to Beatty, special-interest groups and other "minorities" objected to books that offended them. Soon, books all began to look the same, as writers tried to avoid offending anybody. This was not enough, however, and society as a whole decided to simply burn books rather than permit conflicting opinions. Beatty tells Montag to take twenty-four hours or so to see if his stolen books contain anything worthwhile and then turn them in for incineration. Montag begins a long and frenzied night of reading.

 

Overwhelmed by the task of reading, Montag looks to his wife for help and support, but she prefers television to her husband's company and cannot understand why he would want to take the terrible risk of reading books. He remembers that he once met a retired English professor named Faber sitting in a park, and he decides that this man might be able to help him understand what he reads. He visits Faber, who tells him that the value of books lies in the detailed awareness of life that they contain. Faber says that Montag needs not only books but also the leisure to read them and the freedom to act upon their ideas.

 

Faber agrees to help Montag with his reading, and they concoct a risky scheme to overthrow the status quo. Faber will contact a printer and begin reproducing books, and Montag will plant books in the homes of firemen to discredit the profession and to destroy the machinery of censorship. Faber gives him a two-way radio earpiece (the "green bullet") so that he can hear what Montag hears and talk to him secretly.

 

Montag goes home, and soon two of his wife's friends arrive to watch television. The women discuss their families and the war that is about to be declared in an extremely frivolous manner. Their superficiality angers him, and he takes out a book of poetry and reads "Dover Beach" by Matthew Arnold. Faber buzzes in his ear for him to be quiet, and Mildred tries to explain that the poetry reading is a standard way for firemen to demonstrate the uselessness of literature. The women are extremely disturbed by the poem and leave to file a complaint against Montag.

 

Montag goes to the fire station and hands over one of his books to Beatty. Beatty confuses Montag by barraging him with contradictory quotations from great books. Beatty exploits these contradictions to show that literature is morbid and dangerously complex, and that it deserves incineration. Suddenly, the alarm sounds, and they rush off to answer the call, only to find that the alarm is at Montag's own house. Mildred gets into a cab with her suitcase, and Montag realizes that his own wife has betrayed him.

 

Beatty forces Montag to burn the house himself; when he is done, Beatty places him under arrest. When Beatty continues to berate Montag, Montag turns the flamethrower on his superior and proceeds to burn him to ashes. Montag knocks the other firemen unconscious and runs. The Mechanical Hound, a monstrous machine that Beatty has set to attack Montag, pounces and injects Montag's leg with a large dose of anesthetic. Montag manages to destroy it with his flamethrower; then he walks off the numbness in his leg and escapes with some books that were hidden in his backyard. He hides these in another fireman's house and calls in an alarm from a pay phone.

 

Montag goes to Faber's house, where he learns that a new Hound has been put on his trail, along with several helicopters and a television crew. Faber tells Montag that he is leaving for St. Louis to see a retired printer who may be able to help them. Montag gives Faber some money and tells him how to remove Montag's scent from his house so the Hound will not enter it. Montag then takes some of Faber's old clothes and runs off toward the river. The whole city watches as the chase unfolds on TV, but Montag manages to escape in the river and change into Faber's clothes to disguise his scent. He drifts downstream into the country and follows a set of abandoned railroad tracks until he finds a group of renegade intellectuals ("the Book People"), led by a man named Granger, who welcome him. They are a part of a nationwide network of book lovers who have memorized many great works of literature and philosophy. They hope that they may be of some help to mankind in the aftermath of the war that has just been declared. Montag's role is to memorize the Book of Ecclesiastes. Enemy jets appear in the sky and completely obliterate the city with bombs. Montag and his new friends move on to search for survivors and rebuild civilization.

 

 

-

[stonehearted]

theist wrote: Well I thought the questions were pretty straightforward and I haven't seen your position on them presented before. Sorry.

 

stone: My position is of no consequence because I have no power to effect or prevent change.

 

thest: By the way I find the term PC to be very illustrative and clear in its meaning.

 

I'm happy for you. To me, it's mud--intentionally. When the conservatives have the power they seek (and I'm sorry to say that's what the game is all about), what's PC will be what they say is okay.

 

Perhpas an even greater danger is posed by doublespeak, a word coined by William Lutz from newspeak and doublethink. Lutz is a Rutgers professor who has published several books on the subject. He also published a quarterly newsletter through the National Council of Teachers of English. Look it up.

 

theist: I just saw the movie 1984 last night. Newspeak is endline result of PCism.

 

Yes, but from either direction. Note that Orwell's target is totalitarianism (maybe even authoritarianism), not any particular ideology. Have you read the book?

 

 

[stonehearted]

Yes, it's a wonderful book. I taught it to 11-12-year-olds in gurukula. I highly recommend this book. Bradbury's a great writer.

[debbie]

Theist,

I know this might be a little off the subject, but I will ask anyway..I have just ordered the "Bhagavad Gita" off the internet.Are these changes all of you have been talking about already taken place in the book I just ordered?

Debbie

 

[stonehearted]

Regarding the passage you cited, I'm not going to change it. How about you?

 

A more important question may be, How will you explain it to interested parties who approach you for association? What about to a gay man who is really attracted to the chanting but has been treated like a leper by devotees he has approached for good association? Or to someone who is inclined to see others as more than just the nature of their sexual attraction?

 

As I've said, I'm not a party to the discussions to which you refer. ISKCON has already changed so many things that it is unrecognizable to many older devotees.

[theist]

Debbie,

 

I'm not sure all of the changes that have occured or why. I have read the old editions and the one you have just ordered.

 

I actually like the later edition in many ways. That is the one I use now. It just seems to be clearer to me in some ways. I am no expert on these things but i would say that I feel you can read it with confidence. Some one may post some exact changes that we should be concerned about but I haven't seen them.

 

I aslo was introduced to the Srimad Bhagavatam's that Srila Prabhupada brought with him from India. The English was rather broken. Later when he took on disciples he had help in editing the English which helped a lot.

 

You are going to love reading the Bhagavad-gita. I still have trouble with the sanskrit terminology, so I just concentrate on the English.

 

Every verse has a revelation for us.Let us know when it arrives and think of some questions for the teachers here.Jndas is very good at answering questions on the philosophy. I am not so scholarly myself but would love to hear what you find in it.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

[theist]

Yeah I read it long ago.When 1984 was seen as in the future somewhere. Forgot all about it until last night when the movie version came up. It was done very well I thought.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Forgive me for my ignorance but I read somewhere that even if you chant the Hare Krishna mantra jokingly it has the effect of cleansing the heart of longtime material association. So even if these people are making changes to fit a society filled with feminists, lesbians, and gay men. If all these people somehow start chanting the Hare Krishna mantra doesn't it get them at least moving towards the spiritual world? Maybe this is ultimately Krishna fooling all these people into becoming devotees?

[stonehearted]

If it was the 1980's version with Richard Burton and John Hurt, I agree that it was a superb production.

 

Now I'll have to rent it again.

[stonehearted]

make sure you don't skip Srila Prabhupada's Introduction. It's an amazing document; it summarizes the basics of Krishna consciusness and tells how best to approach Bhagavad-gita.

[theist]

That's the one. First time I saw it. It was great.

[Guest guest]

Stonehearted: "As I've said, I'm not a party to the discussions to which you refer. ISKCON has already changed so many things that it is unrecognizable to many older devotees."

 

I will agree with you on that point. A devotee named Kundali dasa has written a series of small books, available for reading on the Web, entitled Our Mission in which he has addressed many troubling issues which have plagued Iskcon over the years, causing many devotees to leave (voluntarily or otherwise.) Great reading, by the way, both for newcomers and old-timers alike, as these booklets are written by a long-time "insider" devotee who has taken a lot of heat for his constructive criticisms of Iskcon leaders, policies, internal dynamics, and so on.

 

Still, whatever the fate of Iskcon (the institution) may be, and whatever other changes they may initiate as the years unfold, it would still be desirable, (IMHO), if Srila Prabhupada's books were to remain unchanged, and not subject to revision with each passing generation of devotees, especially if those changes are effected by those on the "far left" to suit their purposes. I could be wrong, but I do believe that Iskcon (and its affiliates such as the BBT) have the copyrites on Srila Prabhupada's books. So, although I may no longer be connected with Iskcon Temples in a serious way, and although I may not be so concerned about taking sides in the "left vs right" debates, I still believe that preserving Srila Prabhupada's books (as they were while he was here) is a noble cause and not something which should be responded to with indifference. True, there may not be a whole lot we can do about it, although I believe that 2 or 3 years back Bhagavan dasa and a couple of others filed some sort of lawsuit and were able to gain limited copyrites on some of Srila Prabhupada's original books, such as The Krsna Book. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.)