American Reality?

[Schope]

Namaste. As a well educated liberal, ecumenical soul, I sense there might be some "out there" who might have questions concerning how "we" see things. Especially since, I believe, the year 2003 is going to be destructive, and, worse, very dangerous, for all. Ask away, and I invite all to respond. Let's commence a mutually beneficial dialogue and show the real (practical!) strength of this "spiritual" web site.

[theist]

Not sure where you are headed with this Schope. But as far as destruction goes it is also present in some form. but i think you are meaning in a way that is specific to our societies as we have formed them. Yes the s___ is about to hit the fan, again.

 

 

What do you think is the underlying cause?

[Guest guest]

Things we see today,happening on planet Earth,are simply faults of materialism.I have no problem how americans see things.From spiritual point of view all we need is knowledge of God.Unfortunately,modern world is too busy doing all kinds of nonsense.Future is very clear,DESTRUCTION!

 

Who knows where ignorance of mankind will take us.

 

Joy

[leyh]

Not just 2003, but every year will be destructive so long as humanity clings to atheism and materialism.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

The only thing that is going to be destroyed is people's illusions.

[Guest guest]

elaborate on this vague statement.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Wars are fought because people with the mentality of cats and dogs are operating under the illusion that the self is the physical body. Nationalism itself is a byproduct of this illusion.

[Gauracandra]

Its kind of funny but among Hare Krishnas I tend to find a large group that are left wing, and a large group that are right wing. Its a odd sort of mixture. I can't quite put my finger on it. Its like many devotees are left-wing and right-wing at the same time.

 

We find something similar in Christianity (in the U.S. atleast). We often hear of the religious right (who tend to be Protestant), but there is a very powerful religious left. I'd say the Catholic church is part of the religious left. Without the Catholic vote, which pushes for universal health care, assistance to the poor, opposition to the death penalty etc... the Democratic party would be finished. And yet you will find that they are continually made fun of by the same left wing liberals. They tend to be socially conservative but economically liberal.

 

With regards to war and peace, among Hare Krishna devotees you will find both stances. Many came out of the peace movement against the Vietnam war, and hold to that stance. But at the same time, the Bhagavad-Gita is spoken on a battlefield. So the Vaisnava position could hardly be called anti-war. Some wars are necessary. The question is which ones.

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

In the Kali-yuga almost all the wars are fought merely to further sense gratification so it generally tends to be one group of demons battling another group of demons and the victor gets to further their sense gratification.

[Guest guest]

 

 

If I were alive I probably would have been against the Vietnam War because we should have just let that group of demons figure out their own problems. America had enough problems with its own demons at the time. Vietnam was a pretty useless war in my opinion.

[Guest guest]

 

 

I am an American and as much as I hate to admit it most of us are demons. My fellow Americans have a propensity to engage in meat eating, intoxication, gambling and illicit sex. In fact in most every way all these things are celebrated.

[Gauracandra]

Even though Americans eat meat, drink alcohol, engage in illicit sex, and gamble, it should be noted that 99% of the rest of the world does the exact same thing. Europe, South America, Africa, China, Japan and India etc... So there is not much difference in that regard. But if you polled Americans you would find they are among the most religious in the world. 90-95% believe in God, and around 50% attend church atleast once per month, with like 35% every single week. I've seen these statistics before (though these aren't exact figures they are in the ball park). Europe on the other hand, based on these same statistics is practically entirely atheistic. Just going by polls I've seen. Again, I don't have the numbers in my head, but across the board most Europeans don't go to church hardly at all, or believe in God. I even heard a few weeks back on television that there are more muslims in France than there are baptised Catholics. Europe will become a muslim continent because they have held onto their traditions, and the weak Christians in Europe will dwindle and fade away.

[Gauracandra]

This is just a quick excerpt from one poll. I've seen more detailed ones, but this will give a general feel:

 

 

In the United States, 59 percent of poll respondents said religion is "very important" in their lives.

 

That was well above the numbers for other industrialized nations including Britain (33 percent), Canada (30 percent), Italy (27 percent), South Korea (25 percent), Germany (21 percent), Japan (12 percent) and France (11 percent).

 

 

When you get to the Scandinavian countries the figures drop down to like 3%. I'll see if I can find the more detailed polling. Its pretty interesting.

[Guest guest]

Humanity is still alive here in USA.People keep bible in their homes and sometimes read it.In India they don't even know what is in Gita.Materialism is always bad...it will take some time to come to our senses.

 

Joy

[Gauracandra]

BOB ABERNETHY(anchor): European concern about religious groups that may be unfamiliar there comes against a background of Europe's long and dramatic decline in church attendance. Many Europeans say they are interested in spirituality, as many Americans are, too. But unlike the U.S., Western Europe seems to be conspicuously secular. Paul Miller reports on the situation in Britain and France.

 

PAUL MILLER: Sunday mass at the Church of Notre Dame in the Auteuil district of Paris -- there are only about 70 worshippers. Fewer than 10 percent of French Catholics go to church regularly.

 

It's a similar story in England, where many churches such as these along the Canterbury pilgrims route now hold services only once or twice a month. Only 7 percent of Church of England members attend church that often.

 

In England, the population shifted out of the countryside in the 19th century and out of the inner cities in the 20th, leaving too many churches in the wrong places. Also, sociologists say, after 50 years of declining church attendance, there are too many people growing up with no tradition of church-going in their families.

 

CANON ROBIN GILL (Kent University Theology Department): What we are seeing at the moment is that the biggest decline is among young people. These people are not even starting on the first rung now. We are actually looking at less of a percentage of children going to church than adults. That's quite seriously worrying.

 

MILLER: In France, which officially is overwhelmingly Catholic, there is a history of anti-clericalism, and a perception that the Church is authoritarian and out of touch.

 

Father Philippe Bedin is a parish priest in Neuilly, a suburb of Paris.

 

He teaches catechism to what he admits is a small percentage of children who live in the parish. He hopes these children will be regular churchgoers but he knows many of their parents are not.

 

FATHER PHILIPPE BEDIN (Parish Priest): The children of this age, the young age, are responding very well but they are not supported by their families -- most of the parents are not really practicing. They look at the church as rigid in its moral teaching and all that and they have difficulty with that.

 

MILLER: While attendance in England and France is low by American standards, in some other European countries it is even lower -- the estimate for the Lutheran Church in Sweden, which until recently was the state religion, is one and a half percent.

 

The decline in churchgoing in Europe, at a time when Christianity is expanding rapidly in other parts of the world, strikes some as particularly significant -- since Europe is the original home of so many Christian denominations.

 

But Europe is also the home of secularism, where people put their trust in reason, science, and the power of the individual rather than religion. Sociologists say that led to a diminished role for religious institutions.

 

Government took over many church functions, although the Church of England still provides social services in poorer neighborhoods such as the Southwark district of London.

 

In France, the subsidized medical system and an extensive social safety net were created, with services from birth to death.

 

The revolution in 1789 broke the vast power of the Catholic Church. It created separation of church and state for the opposite reason than in the United States -- to protect the state from the church.

 

PROFESSOR DANIELLE HERVIEU-LEGER (Sociologist): The religious institutions are on the margins of the culture for a while. It's not a new situation. And probably, it makes the religious institutions in France more fragile.

 

One religious institution in France that is thriving is the non-denominational American Church in Paris. It offers the kinds of community and social programs Americans expect from a church.

 

PASTOR LARRY KALAJAINAN (American Church in Paris): The French do not expect the church to be a place where they come into relationships that are horizontal with other people -- the relationship is more vertical between the worshipper and God. Americans go to church for all sorts of theological reasons that do involve a multitude of horizontal relationships.

 

MILLER: Pastor Kalajainan doesn't think attendance or the fact that Americans are more willing to declare their faith publicly, makes them more religious than the French.

 

PASTOR KALAJAINAN: I would say more overtly religious, again, partly because of the cultural differences in the comfort level with which people express their own beliefs. What's happening here now is people are expressing their spiritual needs much more on an individual level.

 

CANON GILL: The English are really not very ardent churchgoers -- but we aren't secularists either. So it's a minority who say they actually disbelieve.

 

RT. REVEREND GEORGE CAREY (Archbishop of Canterbury): A survey which has just come out in the United Kingdom is that 76 percent of those interviewed -- and there were many, many interviewed in this survey -- have had religious experiences, but they are not to be found in our churches.

 

MILLER: That phenomenon has produced something sociologists call belief without belonging.

 

MS. SALLY ANNISS: I sort of see myself as a Christian in my actions rather than that I must go to church every Sunday.

 

MILLER: Sally Anniss is a nurse in Birmingham in the English midlands and a pilgrim to Lourdes. She's been a dozen times in 10 years.

 

She goes with children with special needs and says pilgrimage is as much a lifestyle experience as a religious one.

 

MS. ANNISS: I think there is a spiritual component. I wouldn't say for me that it's a religious thing.

 

I think going to Lourdes, there's a huge community feeling just within our group. It's hugely difficult to say but I think it's the community spirit and the fact that you are doing something for somebody else.

 

MILLER: Sociologists say pilgrimage is both a metaphor for the spiritual journey many Europeans are on and a manifestation of their search.

 

PROFESSOR HERVIEU-LEGER: A person who is individually looking for its own way; persons who say I believe in something but I don't know exactly what, or I am looking for, I think there is something outside the material reality. I think there is perhaps a spirit, a force, a power.

 

MILLER: Many Europeans put together their own combinations of religious ideas, drawing on different faiths, creating what's known as patchwork religion, whether it's New Age or Christian.

 

RT. REVEREND CAREY: The Church is not engaging with the spirituality of ordinary men and women today. That's our challenge.

 

MILLER: The Anglican Church has had some success with what is known as the Alpha course of evangelical outreach. It offers an introduction to Christianity presented in sessions of meals, talks, and small group discussions. It started here at Holy Trinity Brompton Church in London and has spread rapidly to 7,000 churches in Britain and 16,000 worldwide.

 

MR. NICKY GUMBEL (Alpha Program Director): It's very low-key, it's non-threatening, it's non-pressurized, it's non-confrontational, it's a very accessible way to explore the Christian faith. What's happening is people are coming to faith in Christ. They are being filled with the holy spirit, they're getting excited about the person of Jesus and they are going out and telling their friends.

 

MILLER: Alpha may not change the larger picture, but it has led to increased attendance in many churches that use it. One reason may be the program's emphasis on community. Sociologists say many of those who practice patchwork religion are looking for the kind of community a church can offer.

 

The challenge for the Church of England, the Catholic Church in France, and other establishment religions may be to incorporate evangelical elements or otherwise engage people, so that those who believe will also belong. For RELIGION & ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY, I'm Paul Miller in Paris.

[madhav]

A quote from above:

<<Nationalism itself is a byproduct of this illusion.>>

 

A nationalism could be bad, good or mix,

just as a religion could be so.

 

If you say it is absolutely bad,

then it means the kshatriyas of the Vedic were doing adharma only.

 

Note that "Americanism" is also a nationalism.

 

Another quote from above some where (in my words):

<<In India no one knows Gita.>>

 

This is far from truth.

Almost every one knows what Gita is.

Some may not have a copy in their possession.

 

Remember that when Mahabharata was brpadcast on TV in India,

the trains at many cities like Mubbai just stopped.

People just would not go in train, and see the TV on the rail stations.

 

However, I agree that most do not know well the message given in Gita.

 

All know Krishna and Rama, etc.

 

Whe Western Krishna devotees I wish should speak bad of India. No matter how it is, it has kept the Sanatana Dharma alive despite 1000 years of Islamists' efforts to kill it completely. As a result Parbhupada and others could bring that religion to the West.

 

So, speaking bad of India, the source of Vaisnavism or Yoga/yogis or Aayurveda, is not fair.

 

Those who understand dharma well and practice it well,

need to encourge Indians in friendly manner to do the same

when they are receptive.

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Schope, How come your user name is Schope....what is that anyway, NAAA....it's weird though cause that's my first name...for real....and I feel as though it's not a coincidence that I've found you....email me at schopdog@hotmail.com....we've got lots to talk about

[mryabotoetoyou]

I know its hard to understand why people do the things they do but maybe it like the story of Rama, and Ravana. If there was not something to learn then what would be the point. Or was it the test like being tested by fire. Both had respect for the other but what was the point of the story? Maybe Ravana test was death the one thing he feared the most but did he not over come it? But then when you passed the test would you wish to keep passing the same test? We all beleive that death isn't real but we all still choose to see it why? Even the people who are afraid to eat meat. I will thank the one who kills me. Bt you don't have to believe me.

[Guest guest]

God is perfect as is his creation. War being part of that creation has its purpose. The enviroment is not our enemy neither are our neighbors. The enemy is our own exploitive tendencies. We most rid ourself of the desire to be the controller and submit ourselves to the will of God. What is that will ? That is surredder to Guru and Krishna and show compassion upon others by seeing them as part and parcil of krishna and give them the holy name. The holy name will do the rest.