Oh my God 3

[atma]

I don't have a link. A friend showed me a paper about the offering and somebody else let me read the Vyasa Puja book. I left for a while to go to the store and when I came back I found prabhuji fast asleep in the couch and I'm guessing the book is under him because I can't find it anywhere and he was reading it in the couch the last time I saw them (prabhu and the book).

 

More or less, Maharaja is asking for clarification from Srila Prabhupada.

Here some excerpt from the paper:

 

"During your physical presence your books were our be-all and end-all. Now, have we entered consciously or unconsciously, a new era of ISKCON known as "PPB"- that is,'post- Prabhupada's books'?"

 

"More than a few seasoned devotees and supportive academics opine that indeed it's time to move on. Maybe, while mantaining our eternal gratitude to you , our founder-acarya,it's now necessary to evaluate what you have left us and distil whatever part of that legacy should accompany us into the future of a different world and a different ISKCON, Therefore amidst the perennial onslaugh of time and change in the material world, I clutch at your feet and seek your clarification, since you are the most expert strategist in Lord Caitanya's contemporary army. And because you cling most tightly to the lotus feet of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati, you are the most divinely pragmatic."

 

"1. What are your expressed desires for your books in relation to the future of ISKCON?

2. How do you see your books in relation to both training future ISKCON devotees and enlightening the present nondevotee population?

3.Amidst the burgeoning potpourri of Gaudiya Vaisnavism outside of India, do you still assert that your books are sufficient for bringing us to the zenith of bhakti?

4.What should we do and feel about purports that seem to clash with current scientific, gender, sociological, and political notions and niceties?

 

TO BE CONTINUED...

[atma]

 

5. How are we to commingle the previous acaryas's literatures with your books, especially since you certaintly mention other sastras in your purports?

 

6. Can your books withstand time? That is, are the purports and language dated- if not now, then in the future?

 

7. Is emphasis on distributing your books, by whatever method, outmoded? Isn't ISKCON without emphasis on mass distribution a breath of fresh air for us?

 

8. Without a doubt you urged your disciples to write books. What is the relation between our books and yours, within your ISKCON society and beyond?

 

9.Should our senior devotees take the lead in demonstrating lifelong dependece on your books for their spiritual sustenance and delight? Is there a danger that by doing so they could inhibit their spiritual maturity?

 

"I can't stand on the shore of the ocean of milk, yet for the sake of ISKCON's future and my own well being I beg you for clarification: Is it pie-in-the-sky and reactionary to pine for a time when we will all be on the same page (into the same books)again, "like the good old days'?"

"Would we gain anything significant and lasting if ISKCON's leaders, in both word and example, rallied to exalt your books as the main basis of our cultural unity? And if you deem such voluntary austerity a laudable goal, then how can we avoid setting off a wave of insensitivity and brashness to attain it (like the good old days)?"

"Maybe there is no one answer to these questions. Perhaps, for your practical pleasure, we should accept the reality of a highly pluralistic ISKCON society, and learn to live with it. If that is your desire, I am ready to accept it."

 

 

 

[atma]

What you see above is from the paper that I got, it is not the whole offering. For what I remember, in the end he wrote that he wants to born again in the sankirtan movement or something like that. Whatever.

 

He is a guru and leader and he is having those kind of questions????

 

Dependence on Srila Prabhupada's books will inhibit one's spiritual maturity?

 

Srila Prabhupada's books can bring us to the highest point of bhakti?

 

Srila Prabhupada's books are outdated?

 

In Umapati's Swami offering, he mentions about this sick mentality spreading in the society.

 

 

 

 

[ethos]

Yeah Atma, I think this posting belongs here.

 

I agree with your points made.

 

Reading this, I am reminded of contradictory mellows in the Nectar of Devotion. But the lack of philosophical understanding and expressed doubt is mortifying.

 

I think ISKCON is perhaps more shadow and less substance of it's former self than I realized.

 

I think the author is disturbed. I too am disturbed by reading it.

 

PS: That's funny about the book.

[Gauracandra]

I don't want to get too deeply involved in discussions of these controversies. But I figured I'd weigh in with a few thoughts of my own. These aren't directed at Devamrta Swami or any one else in particular. Just a few thoughts.

 

First off, I believe that people come to accept ideas based on consistency and credibility of presentation. If you consistently present a very focused message, in small portions, you will create a very deep psychological position. How do you position Krsna Consciousness in the world? Some people would say you need to change with the times. But if you are doing what everyone else is doing, there is nothing unique to your position in the minds of the public. I believe on the other hand, that the world is changing very rapidly, and what people seek are islands of stability in this world. Thats what community is about, thats why people come together to give one another strength. People want something real, something concrete, a solid rock to build a foundation upon. Krsna Consciousness can be that rock, a foil to the world.

 

Consistency is key. If you change the books or "distill" the essence as many people like to say, you will constantly be changing. There is no consistency there, there is no stability there. I can't put my faith in something that changes every 20 years.

 

A second point I'd like to bring up is the lack of a consistent voice. Walk into your nearest Iskcon book store and look at how many books there are on the shelf. My own experience in looking through these books is that 99% of them are pretty much useless. I don't have a problem with the vegetarian cookbooks or Color Guide to Vrindavan. But look at the sheer volume of books. The ones on philosophy are AT BEST a rewording of Srila Prabhupada's works. I'm convinced these books are mostly (not entirely) an ego trip by various gurus and swamis who want to be able to say that they are AUTHORS. "Look at what I have written." I've even been to some temples where disciples are distributing their gurus books rather than Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

But what does this lead to? Everyone is talking about this and that. One guru is presenting it this way, another says its that way. And what you lose is any sense of coherency. Who are the Hare Krsnas? Do we have a consistent voice? Think of it like a choir singing. If everyone decides to sing on their own, each with different song sheets, each in a different tune, you end up with a mess. Its not beautiful. Its not attractive. No one will want to come listen to such a choir or be moved by their VOICE. What is our voice? If you want to be attractive, start singing in tune.

 

If you feel you must be a conductor writing his own music, then its best to leave and build your own concert hall. If you truly have talent, you should be able to attract lots of people on your own through your singing voice and presentation. I have the feeling most of these concert halls would be bare empty if they truly attempted this.

 

Thats pretty much my thoughts for now.

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

He is a guru and leader and he is having those kind of questions????

 

 

These are my feelings exactly. It is indeed saddening.

 

 

In Umapati's Swami offering, he mentions about this sick mentality spreading in the society.

 

 

Do you have Umapati Swami's offering? Are both the offerings of Devamrita and Umapati Swamis from this year's Vyasa-puja book (2002) ?

[atma]

The offerings are in the 2002 Vyasa Puja book. I got the book today but I'm kind of tired to type Umapati swami's offering. Maybe is somewhere online, otherwise I'll do it tomorrow.

[Guest guest]

SP’s books should be left as they are. However that does not mean new books cannot be written. GV has a long and rich literary history. It has been perfectly acceptable throughout that history for new interpretation of previous authors works to be made. To negate this would only damage that tradition. It is only in older Hindu literature do we find interpolations. But interpolations as I understand have only been on those records eg puranas upanistads etc that do not have a historically traceable anthro-author.

[leyh]

Umapati Maharaja's 2002 Vyasa Puja offering can be read online together with offerings from other ISKCON Sannyasis at http://www.harekrishnala.com/vp2002/index.html

[leyh]

I've just finished reading HH Sivarama Swami's 2002 Vyasa Puja offering. It describes an impromptu debate between him and a Mayavadi Shankaracarya. A really inspiring offering.

[Guest guest]

They all have to be downloaded. Why don't you copy and paste the ones you mentioned, here, to make them easier to read.

[Gauracandra]

Its funny (or sad) how if you look historically at various Vyasa Puja books, you will inevitably find three types of offerings:

 

1) Sincere offerings

2) Political agendas masked as offerings

3) Praises of oneself masked as offerings

 

That is you will often find people using the publication as a sort of way to communicate to the greater Iskcon society about how things should be going. Or to communicate about the various accomplishments they themselves have made. One could probably do an analysis of just the Vyasa Puja offerings and write up a fairly good study of the development of the Hare Krsna movement by seeing what was on peoples minds, how people were jockeying for position etc.... Just something interesting to follow. I have some Vyasa Puja books from 20 years ago and you see the exact same thing.

[Jagat]

Yes, this is proper. This questioning is very proper. How should we read Prabhupada's books? Here is Bhaktivinoda Thakur's answer. See how many of Devamrita's questions are answered here:<blockquote>…most readers are mere repositories of facts and statements made by other people. But this is not study. The student is to read the facts with a view to create, and not with the object of fruitless retention. Students, like satellites, should reflect whatever light they receive from authors and not imprison the facts and thoughts just as the Magistrates imprison the convicts in the jail.

 

Thought is progressive. The author’s thought must have progress in the reader in the shape of correction or development. He is the best critic who can show the further development of an old thought; but a mere denouncer is the enemy of progress and consequently of Nature.

 

"Begin anew," says the critic, "because the old masonry does not answer at present. Let the old author be buried because his time is gone." These are shallow expressions. Progress certainly is the law of nature and there must be corrections and developments with the progress of time. But progress means going further or rising higher.

 

Now, if we are to follow our foolish critic, we are to go back to our former terminus and make a new race, and when we have run half the race another critic of his stamp will cry out: "Begin anew, because the wrong road has been taken!" In this way our stupid critics will never allow us to go over the whole road and see what is in the other terminus. Thus the shallow critic and the fruitless reader are the two great enemies of progress. We must shun them.

 

The true critic, on the other hand, advises us to preserve what we have already obtained, and to adjust our race from that point where we have arrived in the heat of our progress. He will never advise us to go back to the point whence we started, as he fully knows that in that case there will be a fruitless loss of our valuable time and labor. He will direct the adjustment of the angle of the race at the point where we are. This is also the characteristic of the useful student. He will read an old author and will find out his exact position in the progress of thought. He will never propose to burn a book on the ground that it contains thoughts which are useless.

 

No thought is useless. Thoughts are means by which we attain our objects. The reader who denounces a bad thought does not know that a bad road is even capable of improvement and conversion into a good one. One thought is a road leading to another. Thus a reader will find that one thought which is the object today will be the means of a further object tomorrow. Thoughts will necessarily continue to be an endless series of means and objects in the progress of humanity.

 

The Bhagavata, like all religious works and philosophical performances and writings of great men, has suffered from the imprudent conduct of useless readers and stupid critics. The former have done so much injury to the work that they have surpassed the latter in their evil consequence.

 

Men of brilliant thoughts have passed by the work in quest for truth and philosophy, but the prejudice which they imbibed from its useless readers and their conduct prevented them from making a candid investigation.

 

Two more principles characterize the Bhagavata—liberty and progress of the soul throughout eternity. The Bhagavata teaches us that God gives us truth as He gave it to Vyasa: when we earnestly seek for it.

 

Truth is eternal and unexhausted. The soul receives a revelation when it is anxious for it. The souls of the great thinkers of the bygone ages, who now live spiritually, often approach our enquiring spirit and assist it in its development. Thus Vyasa was assisted by Narada and Brahma. Our Shastras, or in other words, books of thought, do not contain all we could get from the infinite Father.

 

No book is without its errors. God’s revelation is absolute truth, but it is scarcely received and preserved in its natural purity. We have been advised in the 14th Chapter of the 11th Skandha of the Bhagavata to believe that truth when revealed is absolute, but it gets the tincture of the nature of the receiver in course of time and is converted into error by continual exchange of hands from age to age. New revelations, therefore, are continually necessary in order to keep truth in its original purity. We are thus warned to be careful in our studies of old authors, however wise they are reputed to be.

 

Here we have full liberty to reject the wrong idea, which is not sanctioned by the peace of conscience. Vyasa was not satisfied with what he collected in the Vedas, arranged in the Puranas, and composed in the Mahabharata. The peace of his conscience did not sanction his labors. It told him from within, "No, Vyasa! You cannot rest contented with the erroneous picture of truth which was necessarily presented to you by the sages of bygone days. You must yourself knock at the door of the inexhaustible store of truth from which the former sages drew their wealth. Go, go up to the fountainhead of truth, where no pilgrim meets with disappointment of any kind."

 

Vyasa did it and obtained what he wanted. We have all been advised to do so. Liberty then is the principle which we must consider as the most valuable gift of God. We must not allow ourselves to be led by those who lived and thought before us. We must think for ourselves and try to get further truths which are still undiscovered. In the Bhagavata we have been advised to take the spirit of the Shastras and not the words. The Bhagavata is therefore a religion of liberty, unmixed truth, and absolute love.

 

The other characteristic is progress. Liberty certainly is the father of all progress. Holy liberty is the cause of progress upwards and upwards in eternity and endless activity of love. Liberty abused causes degradation, and the Vaishnava must always carefully use this high and beautiful gift of God.</blockquote>Kundali Das has elaborated on this quotation effectively in the Our Mission series. I heartily recommend this series of books as a penetrating critique of fundamentalism as it has manifested in Iskcon specifically, but which is by extension applicable to anti-rational religiosity wherever it appears.)

[theist]

The questions are natural, agreed. It seems that those are the questions that one would have answered before accepting disciples. But that's between him and his disciples. I suspect he already has a view and is using the vyasa-puja publication as a speaking platform as others brought up.But again who knows.

 

Anyway Bhaktivinodes writting once again saves the day. Thanks for that Jagat.

 

Something I got from it is that he is speaking of further revelations from the transcendental side, building on what has come before. My fear is some will take license from that to impose their mental concoctions onto the revelations

of the past, obscuring them, obstructing others from finding them.

 

There seems to be a push to change and directly contradict the revelations from the recent past. This push is not coming from Vyasa, Narada, Brahma or any other enlightened souls. It is coming from social groups of various material designations. They have their little agendas and feel hurt if the acaryas don't support their views. So they try and canvass with the idea to impose their views via vox populi. This is a big mistake, actually a form af assault on the acaryas institution.

 

We are all called to the point of direct revelation. But how to perceive the real from the hallucinatory? It is a tightrope walk and can only be accomplished by a very balanced devotee IMO.

[Jagat]

We are all understanding according to our own conscience. Thus, "mental concoction" is going on everywhere. The acharya is one who manages to make his all-encompassing vision of things meaningful to others. A vision that is only useful for the person that has it is legitimate for that one person. If he is not capable of making this vision meaningful to anyone else, then he is not an acharya, even though he may achieve a level of self-satisfaction.

 

A successful religion can tolerate a wide variety of dissent about doctrine. Already in Iskcon, we see that there is a certain amount of interpretation going on--the question of women, gays, the infallibility of the guru, etc., are some issues that come to mind. In certain cases, it can be seen that there are sizeable minorities or even majorities that have taken positions arguably opposed to those espoused by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Though controversies are often expectably heated and on occasion can lead to schisms, a successful religion with pretensions to universality generally seeks accomodation by relativizing such controversial issues under overarching points of common faith. What these are can also be a matter of debate, but I don't doubt that if I say that in Krishna consciousness "mahavakyas" like krishnas tu bhagavan svayam, jiver svarupa hoy nitya krishna das, harer namaiva kevalam would be accepted as central; the issue of women's intelligence far less so. Things like varnashram, furthermore, need long, sophisticated reflection.

 

My personal hope is to one day see a tolerant unity amongst Vaishnavas across the spectrum. At present, however, Iskcon is still pretty much in the immediate post-charismatic phase and may never get out of it (as often happens). By this, I mean the charm of fundamentalism has not yet worn off.

 

Jagat

[Gauracandra]

Jagat,

 

What would you consider to be the most successful religion that matches the criteria you have laid out (ie. open to dissent, non-fundamentalist etc...)?

[Jagat]

That is a tough question, because we generally associate authoritarian thinking with all religions. However, the most rigid authoritarianism ultimately proves counterproductive when the objective is to accomodate large groups of people.

 

Even in traditional societies, where intense social homogeneity would combine with religion to prevent excessive variety, there is still a need to accomodate the more worldly, less practitioners within the fold. Catholicism and Islam allowed the creation of many orders of renunciates with their own rules, to allow for more individualized interpretation of spiritual life. Catholicism also permits a lot of cultural variety.

 

The challenge of modernity brings a lot of friction into all religions, which to some extent or another are all based on a "great" revelation or series of revelations. Those who relativize these revelations are subject to becoming totally secular and are always under suspicion.

 

Currently, the tendency in Protestant Christianity is to split up, with liberal and conservative factions divorcing, or people walking with their feet to other denominations that more closely embody the conservative or liberal ideology of the individual. Catholicism has done the best job of keeping a wide variety of opinions within the same institution, but the current pope has done much to alienate liberals. It's touch and go for him, though, because the current power base of the church is more and more in the third world, which is very conservative on moral issues. So that's a real juggling act.

 

A powerful liturgy goes a long way to keep unity.

 

 

 

 

[Jagat]

Just to add that any religion that has a really wide base must have put a little water in the wine. This is the sociological theory of sect and church.

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

One could probably do an analysis of just the Vyasa Puja offerings and write up a fairly good study of the development of the Hare Krsna movement by seeing what was on peoples minds, how people were jockeying for position etc.... Just something interesting to follow. I have some Vyasa Puja books from 20 years ago and you see the exact same thing.

 

 

I must comment Gaurachandra prabhu for his succint realizations here.

 

I myself have found more or less the same thing. I do not possess much of the old Vyasa-puja books except one (1980 I think) and in that one it is plain obvious for all to see how the book was used to transmit the concept of the "Zonal Acharyas" and other things, masked in praise of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Also, I had always thought that Devamrita Swami was a thoughtful writer with interesting insights. After reading his Vyasa-puja offering, I have realised that I was wrong and thus I am better off not reading of his work any longer.

 

Sad indeed.

[theist]

<quote>Just to add that any religion that has a really wide base must have put a little water in the wine. This is the sociological theory of sect and church. </quote>

 

That's a great example. Now I see the objective as this. How to have a wide base on one hand and still maintain a prime vintage that has not been watered down? I am thinking both must be there somehow.

 

People who become accoustomed to drinking watered down wine hopefully will at some point develop into a connesiour (sp?)

and switch to the undiluted wine. That must be the goal. But if that is watered down out of existence how will they be able too?

 

Take myself for example. I can see the pure undiluted wine but I have no taste for it. I am only willing to take the diluted version. But I like do know where I stand. If the watered down version gets taken for the pure undiluted what will I progress up to? I will then mistake religion for realization and never get truly drunk on the divine.

 

Keeping the undiluted truth intact is an imperative even if only a handful can live on that level.

[atma]

it seems to me those are the kind of questions that one would have answered before becoming a disciple what to say about accepting disciples.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Yes, this is proper. This questioning is very proper.

 

 

One would hope a Vyasa Puja offering would be used to worship the spiritual master, not to bring out one's political agenda. Especially when one's political agenda is to show how Prabhupada's books are lacking. His questions may be natural (after all, doubts of Krishna's instructions are the natural occurence in the material world), but we would expect some discrimination from him as to where and when to bring up his confusions and doubts.

 

 

We are all understanding according to our own conscience. Thus, "mental concoction" is going on everywhere.

 

 

Which is a very good point, and exactly why only liberated souls are qualified to reveal transcendental knowledge to us. Not mundane academics, nor English editors, nor lobbies with different left wing agendas.

[stonehearted]

jndas wrote: Which is a very good point, and exactly why only liberated souls are qualified to reveal transcendental knowledge to us. Not mundane academics, nor English editors, nor lobbies with different left wing agendas.

 

 

Or right-wing agendas. Or Hindutva . . . or whatever.

[Jagat]

What makes people think that doubts stop at initiation? Initiation is some kind of brain-turning-off-mechanism?

 

Initiation is about committing to a specific spiritual path.

[Jagat]

I find the "only self-realized souls" etc. argument a bit problematic. At some point we make a subjective decision about who is such a self-realized soul and go on from there. The Bhaktivinoda quote given above shows that we cannot abdicate the use of our intelligence no matter how wise our gurus. Thought is progressive, which means we have to build on what our gurus have given us and not simply preserve their ideas like "prisoners" in jail, or like pickles in a jar.

 

Whether the Vyasa Puja is a place to publish such things is an interesting question. The Vyasa Puja publication is one that has further reach amongst the devotees now than ever before. I imagine that the editorial board makes some decisions about what is permitted. But if the VP is being used in this way, it is likely because there is no other adequate forum for devotees to discuss matters of this sort.

 

On the other hand, as an expression of one's personal relationship with Srila Prabhupada, it is perhaps honest to express one's doubts in this way.

 

These comments have made me interested in the Vyas Pujas as a literary form. Sounds fascinating. I wonder if anyone has a complete collection.