Vaikuntha levels and rasa (Swami-Narayana level)

[anadi]

In Vaikuntha (the spiritual world) there are compartments on the same level and others on higher level. The level of the compartments are given by rasa, the mellow of loving relationship between the devotee and his worshipable Lord.

The more intimate the loving relationship is, the higher the level of the compartment is.

 

According to Srila Rupa Gosvami, which is the number one expert in the science of rasa, the most intimate relationship between the Lord and His devotees, is the relation between Brajendra Nandana Krsna and the gopis, which in its highest form can be found in the relation between Brajendra Nandana Krsna and Shrimati Radhika, the queen of Vrindavan (Braj)

 

The Gaudya Vaishnavas are proud to be called Rupa-anugas, followers of the teachings of Srila Rupa Gosvami which in his book The nectar like ocean of the mellows of loving relationships (Bhakti rasa-amrita sindhu), he said, he took only one drop from that nectar like ocean to give us a hint on the Lord of all sweetness Brajendra Nandana Krsna in the relation with His devotees.

 

On the level of Vrindavan the sweetness (MADURYA) of Brajendra Nandana Krsna is so amazing that all His opulence (AISHVARYA) and lordship is completely covered by that sweetness.

In this context one should understand that the residents of Braj(a) (Vrindavan) will never accept Brajendra Nandana Krsna as the Supreme Lord (covered by His opulence-aishvarya) but according to their relation they will accept Him as a friend, a son or a beloved.

 

Some outsiders may come and say Brajendra Nandana Krsna is the Supreme Lord, the Lord of all Lords, but no resident of Braj will believe it or care about that.

Sometimes Brajendra Nandana Krsna took Narayana or Vishnu forms but no one in Braja was disturbed about it.

 

Avatars as Nrisingha, Kalki, und Vamana are on the same level in Vaikuntha dhama. They share the same so called floor but they have their own "rooms".

To be continued.

 

[anadi]

At the border of the spiritual world there is the Viraja river, and than comes sidha-loka which is the outer area of the Vaikuntha world. The so called enemies, who were killed by Krsna attain this destination. And this sidha-loka is the destination of those who chant aham brahmasmi and think that jiva (the soul) merge in the Brahman effulgence (of the Lord).

 

But as vaishnavas know, jiva cannot lose his identity.

 

jivera svarupa hoya krsnera nitya dasa

krsnera tatastha sakti bedhabeda prakasa

 

jivera svarupa – the internal form of the jiva is krsna nitya dasa – an eternal servant of krsna and

jiva is krsnera tatastha sakti – the marginal energy of the Lord Krsna,

and so although the jivas are bedhabeda prakasa (at the same time one and different from Krsna),

they are implanted in the tatastha region by the glance of Maha Vishnu.

From that region by shatantra shakti they can choose between the spiritual and material worlds.

 

By this reason Sri Caitaniya Mahaprabhu explain that jiva has his own category - krsnera tatastha sakti although He stressed that they are bedhabeda prakasa.

 

Caitanya-caritamrta (CC Madhya 22.108):

 

nitya siddha krsna prema sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi suddha citta koraye udaya

 

["Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens." (Cc Madhya 22.108)]

It's not that the spiritual master is giving a seed of something that is not already in the heart of the living entity. Nitya siddha krsna prema: krsna prema is already lying dormant, latent within our hearts, in the same way that the seed of any tree or plant has everything about that tree or plant already within it – in potency. For instance, a mango seed has within it the tree, its branches, leaves, flowers, fruit, and even the flavor and aroma of the fruit. Everything is already there in potency. Similarly, krsna-bhakti, krsna-prema, is already in our hearts in seed form.

 

(source Discourse on The Bhakti lata bija by SB Narayana Maharaja)

[Guest guest]

"Some outsiders may come and say Brajendra Nandana Krsna is the Supreme Lord, the Lord of all Lords, but no resident of Braj will believe it or care about that.

Sometimes Brajendra Nandana Krsna took Narayana or Vishnu forms but no one in Braja was disturbed about it.

"

 

So why in the writings of the Goswamis do we find them all the time trying to correlated this prakrit Krishna (braj Krishna) with Vasudeva Krishna

[anadi]

Above Siddha-loka there is the Sadashiva-loka, the whereabouts of Vishnu forms of the Lord, and above this is

the Narayana-dhama where those jiva dwell, who get the four kinds of liberations. This devotees worship the Lord in awe and reverence, and

because of their knowledge about the majesty, supremacy and opulence of the Lord they cannot even imagine an intimate relationship with their Lord,

which in their eyes would be a blasphemy.

So between these devotees and the Lord there is a big thick wall.

For example Praladha Maharaja is a janana – bhakta, because he is in full knowledge of the supremacy and majesty of the Lord. He will do some service to the Lord like preaching about His opulence and supremacy, but Praladha Maharaja won’t do any personal intimate service to Lord Nrisinghadeva, because Praladha Maharaja is very aware of the opulence of the Lord, Who is absolutely perfect and don’t miss anything.

This is the Level of Narayana-dhama, the level of sevice (dasya – mood) in awe in reverence, which encompasses those devotees who practice vaidhi bhakti and are blessed with salokya, sarupya, samipya and sharshti kinds of liberations they wanted.

 

 

[anadi]

Dandavat pranama dear guest,

There is no contradiction there.

but

 

"prakrit Krishna"

 

the adjectiv prakrit (in the sense of manifested) it is not so happily choused. We can see some difference between prakrita and aprakrita Vrindavana, and there are some differences between the prakrita lila and the aprakrita lila of Krsna, but there is no difference between the Krsna in the aprakrita Vrindavana and the Krsna in prakrita Vrindavan, and that is why I would say that the adjective prakrit is not a happy choice for the noun krsna.

So when the attribute prakrit is used in connection with a subject, there is a hint on the difference

Pertaining the subject in the aprakrit and prakrit state.

 

correlated this prakrit Krishna (braj Krishna) with Vasudeva Krishna.

 

Also there might be that the word correlation between Brajendra nandana Krsna and Vasudeva Krsna is not a quite happy choice because Brajendra nandana Krsna and Vasudeva Krsna are one and the same person which took different moods so that he might satisfy His devotees. For example the devotees of Dwarka cannot understand the mood of the devotees in Braja. Even the most elevated of them Udhava cannot understand Krsna.

Krsna felt himself so unhappy in Dwaraka, and always thought at the vrajavasis and especially to the gopis and always to Radharani. And in Dwarka Krsna had no one to share His feelings with. So He thought, He might send Udhava to the school of the gopis under some pretext and lamentably Udhava failed. When he saw the love of Nanda Baba and Mother Yasoda, the love of the gopis and specially the love of Srimati Radhika, he understood how insignificant is his devotion. He didn’t felt qualified to pray to even a particle of dust of the lotus feet of the gopis. So Krsna in Dwaraka remained very unhappy, and arranged the meeting at the Kurukshetra.

Of course Krsna never leaves Vrindavan.

When Akrura came to take Krsna to Mathura, when they attained the border of Braja and entered the Yamuna, he was astonished to see one Krsna on the bank of the Yamuna in Vrindavan and one on the chariot.

Akrura could not understand, but we should pray and serve and one day maybe realization will come.

 

[anadi]

Dear guest,

all glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga

 

Over above the Narayana-dhama where the innumerable Naryana forms reside, from which innumerable avataras descend in the material worlds, there is the world of Ramacandra.

 

But what is the relation between Sri Lakshmi and Sri Narayana? Can the love of Lakshmi bound Sri Narayana as the Love of Srimati Radharani bounds Sri Krsna? Oh, no. More than that, even Lakshmi left Narayan and went to Vrindavan because She heard about the rasa dance and heard about the melodies that Krsna plays on the flute. She thought “Oh, my prabhu, Narayan dances and plays the flute. I never knew of that.” She went to Vrindavan, she did uncountable austerieties to attain the rasa dance. Krsna was pleased with Her and told Her that she should give up Her opulence, marry a gopa, and than She should come in the dead of night and meet with Him in the forest. But she could not do that, and so she failed to attain Krsna.

If Narayan would be the original personality of Godhead how is it possible that the consort of Narayan could not attain Sri Krsna which was supposed to be the same Narayan playing the role of Krsna?

The story can be found in Bhagavat Purana (Srimad Bhagavatam) Canto 10.

 

The adi purush is the most attractive (krsna) because He is the sweetest (madhuram adharam) and although Lakshmi was very attracted to Him, She had not the qualification to attain Him, and His rasa dance. But by His mercy Krsna gave Lakshmi a place on His chest as a golden line.

 

This Brajendra nandan Sri Krsna in not only the SUPREME Personality of Godhead but He is the original one.

Sri Brahma Samhita, which contains the prayeers of Lord Brahma, has many references that back up this argument.

That is why Sri Caitaniya Mahaprabhu was very happy to find this book (partialy) and gave it to His associates.

[kailasa]

Prahlada maharaja take poison it gyana?

[anadi]

Dear Kailasa Prabhu,

all glories to sri guru and gauranga

 

The expression poison of jnana might be traced back to

the lack of understanding concerning the stages of bhakti as are given by Srila Rupa Gosvami Prabhupada.Let us take a look.

Srila Rupa Gosvami Prabhupada.says:

Sa bhakti sadhana bhaktir bhava bhakti

prema bhakti iti trividha

sadhana bhakti punar vaidhi

raganuga bhaedena dvividha

 

That bhakti that he defined as uttama bhakti has 3 stages, sadhana bhakti, bhava bhakti

prema bhakti. And sadhana bhakti has 2 stages vaidhi and raganuga.

What is vaidhi bhakti?

It is that nature that impels one to follow the rules and regulations of the shastra.

What is raga-anuga bhakti?

It is that nature that impels one to follow the soul s spontaneous attraction toward the Lord.

By this kind of bhakti one can not attain but Vaikuntha and eventually Ayodya and Mathura or Dwarka of the spiritual world and the bhava and prema that would be attained is belittled by

Jnana about the opulence of the Lord, which will put a wall of intimacy, more or less thick, between the devotee and the Lord.

 

Besides this two nature there is another nature called raga-atmika bhakti in which the soul is permeated with raga to the highest extent (spontaneous attachment and love) and raga-atmika bhakti is but the nature of the eternal residents of Braj.

And what is one of that characteristics of the nature of the eternal residents of Braj?

They have no idea, and also have no interests in any ideas about the knowledge of bhagavan (jnana), because they are completely satisfied by the sweet rasa they are tasting in the company of brajendra nandana sri krsna.

In this connection Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says in Jaiva Dharma:

Jiva is wholly unacquainted with the raga-anuga nature,

to say nothing of the raga-atmika nature.

 

Of course the bhakta in this world needs sambandha jnana as Srila Rupa Gosvami Prabhupada explained in Bhakti rasa-amrita sindhu but

as Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains in Jaiva Dharma when jiva attains vastu sidhi,

raga-atmika vritti is awakened in the jiva, both in his svarupa as in his vastu.

At that stage the sweetness of the established relation between the jiva and brajendra nandana sri krsna will completely cover the knowledge about the opulence and majesty of bhagavan. In that condition the knowledge of bhagavan is completely covered.

 

By the mercy of Sri Guru and vaishnavas, on the level of 100 000 Holy Names a day, some realization will come.

[Guest guest]

Posted by Kailasa

 

Prahlada maharaja prema bhakta.

 

Posted by Kailasa

 

****By the mercy of Sri Guru and vaishnavas, on the level of 100 000 Holy Names a day, some realization will come.

 

If do aparadha it is no help. 200 000 no help.

 

Posted by Kailasa

 

***From that region by shatantra shakti they can choose between the spiritual and material worlds.

 

They reject spiritual world??

 

Posted by Kailasa

 

***For example Praladha Maharaja is a janana – bhakta, because he is in full knowledge of the supremacy and majesty of the Lord.

 

He is vatsalya rasa.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted by Anadi

 

You say that Pralada Maharaja is a premi bhakta and he is in vatsalya rasa.

Let us see what is vatsalya rasa.

Vatsalya rasa is that parental relationship between the devotee and the Lord,

in which the

devotee is

one of the parents

and

the Lord

takes the role of the child.

In the case of Praladha Maharaja, when Lord Nrisinghadeva came, he was only a child, and he was taken under the care and protection of Lord Nrisinghadeva.

In vatsalya rasa the Lord gives himself under the care and protection of the devotee, which in the case of Praladha Maharaja is just the opposite.

Please don t be upset with me.

 

What is a premi bhakta?

A premi bhakta is a devotee involved in the personal intimate service of the Lord.

Praladha Maharaja is a jnani bhakta.

First, up the Ayodya level of the spiritual world we can speak of premi bhaktas.

Why?

Because up this level the devotee is involved in the personal intimate service of the Lord.

The prominent example herewith is Hanuman.

Hanuman cannot live without personal intimate service to Lord Rama.

When Lord Ramacandra returned from the war, Hanuman was told that there is no more service for him. He replied that whatever service it will be, he will take it, because without personal service for his Lord he cannot live. So, because there was no more service there, they made up a service for Hanuman, and he was told ok you should snip your fingers when Lord Ramacandra will yawn, and the associates of Lord Rama knew very well, the Lord never yawns. And after that Lord Rama was but yawning, so that the others could not serve the Lord in any other way….

In Vaikuntha level of the spiritual world there is no personal intimate service for the Lord, so

that the devotees are not really interested in the four kind of liberations that promote one in the Vaikuntha level of the spiritual world.

 

Please don t be upset with me.

Please forgive me, is not my intention to offend you.

 

Posted by Anadi

 

Hare Krsna kailasa prabhu,

 

Brihad aranyaka Upanishad (4.3.9)

That jiva purusha has two positions, namely

the inanimate world and the spiritual world

about which he should enquire.

The jiva is situated in a third position,

which is svapna sthana, which is the juncture between these two.

Being situated on the place where the two worlds meet, he sees both

The jada vishva (inert world)

And the cid vishva (spiritual world).

 

Sri Nrada pancaratra

Yat tatashtham tu cidrupam svasam vedya advinirgatam

Being a particle of consciousness and a emanation from the cit shakti,

the jiva is tatashtha (marginal)

 

Being situated in the juncture between the material and spiritual world,

if they look in the direction of the cit jagat,

the shakti of yoga maya empowers them to become engaged in the cit jagat.

If they look in the direction of jada jagad

The DESIRE

to enjoy the mayika jagat arises in them.

The Lord is bound to fulfil that desire,

maha maya who is close by,

makes the required arrangements,

and those jivas land in the material world.

 

But by the mercy of the Lord they can learn

to DESIRE

the pure service of the Lord.

When they have learn it,

and the flower of devotion bloomed

and started to give fruits.

they are so attached to it,

that they won t have any other desire

anymore.

 

As the goswamis said even the bliss of brahmananda becomes insignificant.

 

Posted by Anadi

 

1.Only by the mercy of guru and vaishnavas, we can really make progress in bhakti.

And that mercy will come, when they are satisfied with our service.

 

And I don t think that this statement can be considered as an aparadha.

 

2 . When S.B. Swami Prabhupada wrote in CC that his disciple chant AT LEAST

16 rounds, one should not interpret that one should chant ONLY 16 rounds.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that He will come only in the house that has a

lackh, by which He meant that He will come only to those who chant one lackh

(100 000) Holy Names. And when Caitanya Mahaprabhu will come, one can be sure, realization will come.

 

In this statement I don t see either no aparadha.

 

If you apply these statements to you, and you think that I offended you,

I beg you, that you may forgive me.

Please be merciful and forgive me,

than your future is glorious.

 

[anadi]

Over the world of Ramacandra there is the World of Sri Krsna, known as Goloka.

In the lower part of Goloka Dhama, under Dwaraka

one finds the mood of svakiya bhava.

That means there take place the pastimes of Radha-Krsna

in which Radha-Krsna are Lakshmi-Narayan expansions in aishvarya bhava,

and thus in full consciousness of their Divinity.

This is the destination for those who practice arcana,

worship of Radha-Krsna in vaidhi bhakti (worship under rules and regulations of Scriptures).

Ambarish Maharaja worshiped Krsna in that way,

in the mood of opulence (aishvarya)

and attained this level of Goloka Dhama.

 

Source:

Der Harmonist (Gaudiya Vedanta Magazin - german issue july 2002)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Prahlada maharaja prema bhakta it is writing Prabhupada and SBT too citation abhout prema Prahlada maharaja.

 

Needs citation?

[Guest guest]

***Please don t be upset with me.

 

It is no I am. Prahlada is vatsalya rasa it is writings SP.

[Guest guest]

***Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that He will come only in the house that has a

lackh, by which He meant that He will come only to those who chant one lackh

(100 000) Holy Names.

 

You take citation?

 

 

[anadi]

From Bhakti Rasa-amrita Sindhu bindhu

 

Fourth Wave Vatsalya-bhakti-rasa

Parental Affection

(21) Vatsalya-rasa

atha vatsalya rase komalango vinayli sarva lakshana yukta itydi gunah Sri krsno vishayAlambanaH. Sri krsne anugrAhya bhAva-

vantaH pitradayo gurujanA atra VRAJE VRAJESCARI VRAJARAJA-rohiNy

upananda tat-patny AdayaH. anyatra DEVAKI KUNTI VASUDEVAYA

ca AshrayalambanAH

smita jalpita BALYA ceSHtadaya uddipana vibhAvAH. mas-

takAghrANAshirvada-lalana-palanadayo anubhAvAH. sAttvikAH

stambha-svedAdayAH sarva eva stana-sravaNam iti nava

saNkhyAH. harSHa shankadyA„ vyabhicAriNAH. VATSALYA RATI STHAI

BHAVAH. PREMA SNEHA RAGASH cAtra bhavanti. atrApi viyoge pUrva-

vat daSHa daSHAH. iti VATSALYA RASAH.

 

 

ASHrayAlambana

KRSNA s mother, father and

other elders

who have

1. a strong sense of mamatA or possessiveness in relationship to Him,

2. who give instructions to Him

3. and nurture Him,

4. and who desire to bestow their favor upon Him

(who regard SRI KRSNA as the object of their mercy)

are the ASHrayAlambana of vatsalya-rasa.

In Vraja these include

Vrajaraja Sri Nanda Maharaja,

Vrajeshvari Sri Yashoda

Rohini,- maiyia

Upananda and his wife Tungi,

the other elder and younger brothers of Nanda Baba

and their wives,

and the gopis whose sons were stolen by Brahma.

In Mathura or Dvaraka,

Krsnas elders in parental affection include

Vasudeva, Devakl. and her co-wives,

Kunti,

Sandlvpani Muni and others.

Of all these, Sri Yashoda is the best.

 

 

 

I am a neophite, and I cannot understand siddhanta

but my gurudeva tried to explain me this knowledge about Vatsalya rasa

1. Krsna is the child and the devotee is the parent

2. The devotee that is in a parental mood

a)-think that Krsna belongs to him

b)-try to nurture, take care of Krsna and give Him instructions

c)-try to bestow his mercy upon krsna

 

These devotees can be found only in Dvaraka, Mathura, and Braja!

 

As Sanatan Gosvami describes in Brihad Bhagavatamrita the different types of devotees, when he writes about Praladha Maharaja, he mentions none of the characteristics of the devotees in vatsalya rasa as applying to Praladha Maharaja.

More than that Praladha Maharaja is described as a resident of Vaikuntha,

and, according to the above definition of Parental Affection,

in Vaikuntha there is no vatsalya rasa

 

[anadi]

The mood of Praladha Maharaja (Brihad Bhagavatamrita)

 

17. When a person is instructed by

GREAT PURE DEVOTEES of Lord Hari,

he naturally becomes glorious.

 

19. The great souls know that these things are not the real signs of Lord Krsna's mercy. O noble one, Lord Krsna's mercy is given only to those who engage in devotional service.

20. I NEVER rendered DIRECT SERVICE to the Lord as Hanuman and many others did. I SIMPLY MEDITATED on the Lord when my heart was troubled.

21. You may praise the Lord's affectionately embracing me, but some say that embrace was only a feature of the Lord's illusory potency, and others think it was only a pastime of the Lord.

 

30. When I preached the truth of spiritual life I mingled with many miseducated demons, and by their association I became infected with a host of dry, NON DEVOTIONAL THEORIES. Even today not a single wretched fragment of those false theories has left me.

31. By pure devotion one attains the mercy of the Lord. What pure devotion do I have? As I meditate on the misdeeds of Bana I can see the clear signs of my own lack of devotion.

 

36. By your lordship's mercy the Supreme Personality of Godhead may have some affection for me. Still, the glory of that affection is very insignificant in comparison to the great mercy received by even the newest devotees.

37. O lord whose heart melts with limitless mercy, why should I make you suffer by describing my own great misfortune? Better that you place your glance on the great mercy the Lord has given to the Kimpurusa Hanuman.

38. O lord, please know that when the Supreme Personality of Godhead appeared in His half-man half-lion form to kill my father, He very quickly did His work and then disappeared again.

39. I was not able to see the Lord to my heart's content. On the shore of the great ocean I saw Him for only a moment. It was like a flickering dream.

40. Hanuman was very fortunate. He was able to enjoy the happiness of directly serving the Lord for many thousands of years without obstruction.

49. He brought great happiness to Sita. He is the object of the great transcendental mercy of his master. Even though he is not able to bear separation from his master, he remains in this world by His order.

50. He sustains himself by always hearing the glories of his master. Even today he stands beside the transcendental Deity form of his master as he had always stood by Him in the past.

51. My lord, the scriptures declare: "The monkey-king Hanuman attained perfection by serving the Supreme Lord." In this way Hanuman's glory is famous in this world. His service brought him the Lord's mercy.

52. I offer my respectful obeisances to Hanuman. Even if it were to come to him of its own accord, he has no desire to accept any kind of liberation that would check his service to Lord Visnu, the son of Maharaja Dasaratha.

53. I have left much unsaid, still, your lordship knows his glorious position very well. Please go now to Kimpurusa-carsa. See him and become happy.

54." He then rose from his seat, and travelled through outer space to Kimpurusa-varsa.

55. There he saw Hanuman devotedly worshipping the lotus feet of the Deity of Lord Ramacandra with wonderful offerings taken from the forest as if the Lord were directly present before him.

56. Hearing the nectarean story of the Ramayana sung by the Gandharvas and other celestial singers, Hanuman became full of bliss. He trembled and shed tears. The hairs of his body stood erect.(HERE IT IS A CLEAR DESCRIPTION OF matured BHAVA)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

SP writes abhout His mood like vatsalya. To siyet' to the elbows it is dasya? /images/graemlins/smile.gif In Vaikuntha may be he is dasya, in Nrisimha lila he is vatsalya. PM ia prema bhakta.

 

No citation abhout one lakh Lord Caitanya? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Guest guest]

It can be time to rise above Vaikuntha? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[anadi]

SP writes about His mood like vatsalya. To siyet' to the elbows it is dasya?

In Vaikuntha may be he is dasya, in Nrisimha lila he is vatsalya. PM ia prema bhakta

 

 

 

 

Maybe Krsna allowed us to discuss these topics so that we learn something,

and we should not be ashamed if we are wrong.

But always we want to be right regardless the truth of justice.

 

To siyet' to the elbows it is dasya has not meaning in English.

And if one reads the posted definition given in Bhakti rasamrita sindhu bindhu

the elbows or the sitting (or siyet)

have nothing to do with the characteristics of vatsalya rasa.

 

The second affirmation

In Vaikuntha may be he is dasya, in Nrisimha lila he is vatsalya,

is due to a lack of understanding

1.the science of rasa

and

2.the message of Srila Vyasadeva in Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

First

It is not possible that in prakat lila of bhagavan a devotee is in one rasa but

in the nitya lila he is in an other rasa,

and that is lower that the rasa in the material world.

 

In Caitanya lila we can see that some devotees come with a combination of moods, which in no case contradict the superior mood they have in the spiritual world,

because all the lower rasas are included in the higher rasa.

 

Praladha Maharaja was never described as having a combination of moods

characteristic for other devotees.

 

So this attempt to reconcile the amount of evidence from the

Bhakti rasamrita sindhu bindu and Brihad Bhagavatamrita that shows that

Praladha Maharaja is in dasya rasa

with the affirmation that In Vaikuntha may be he is dasya, in Nrisimha lila he is vatsalya

is a failure.

I am quite sure, Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada never write that Parlada Maharaja is in vatsalya rasa, and this, just because he understands the science of rasa. He is a rupa-anuga.

 

 

Second

in Srimad Bhagavatam we are taken gradually through different prakat lilas of bhagavan Sri Krsna,

which have their culmination in the tenth canto.

These lilas convey us the different types of devotees and the different types of prema they attained, which has its culmination in the unantojvala prema (the love in separation of the gopis), which in its higher extent is to be found in Srimati Radhika.

We cannot jump direct to the tenth canto. If we cannot understand how high is for example the prema of Praladha Maharaja, or how much higher is the prema of Uddhava, we will never understand the exquisite love of the gopis.

On the other side Sri Sanatana Gosvami wrote Brihad Bhagavatamrita and explained the different

levels of devotees so that we understand the limits of the different types of devotees To understand this points without proper guidance is quite impossible.

 

PS

For the 100 000 Holy Names a day platform, I will open another thread.

 

 

[kailasa]

**have nothing to do with the characteristics of vatsalya rasa.

 

dasya? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

***First

It is not possible that in prakat lila of bhagavan a devotee is in one rasa but

in the nitya lila he is in an other rasa,

and that is lower that the rasa in the material world.

 

Srivasa Pandit in Krisna lila sakhya, gaura lila madhurya.

 

**In Caitanya lila we can see that some devotees come with a combination of moods, which in no case contradict the superior mood they have in the spiritual world,

because all the lower rasas are included in the higher rasa.

 

I am look abhout Haridasa Thakura.

 

**I am quite sure, Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada never write that Parlada Maharaja is in vatsalya rasa, and this, just because he understands the science of rasa. He is a rupa-anuga.

 

"...Here the feelings of Prahlada Maharaja were in the mellow of vatsalya, filial love and affection."

 

SB 7.4.40 PURPORT

 

Rupa nuga it is follow steps Lord caitanya. Krisna lila it is expansion Lord Caitanya.

 

 

***Second

in Srimad Bhagavatam we are taken gradually through different prakat lilas of bhagavan Sri Krsna,

which have their culmination in the tenth canto.

These lilas convey us the different types of devotees and the different types of prema they attained, which has its culmination in the unantojvala prema (the love in separation of the gopis), which in its higher extent is to be found in Srimati Radhika.

 

In Lord Caitanya /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

***We cannot jump direct to the tenth canto. If we cannot understand how high is for example the prema of Praladha Maharaja, or how much higher is the prema of Uddhava, we will never understand the exquisite love of the gopis.

 

Yes.

 

**On the other side Sri Sanatana Gosvami wrote Brihad Bhagavatamrita and explained the different

levels of devotees so that we understand the limits of the different types of devotees To understand this points without proper guidance is quite impossible.

 

Yes.

 

***PS

For the 100 000 Holy Names a day platform, I will open another thread.

 

OK.

[kailasa]

So Prahlada Maharaja, he is on the stage of prema, prema-gadgadaya vaca tan-nyasta-hеdayeksanah. when you attain the stage of prema, then your core of heart is cleansed for welcoming, He is there, for seeing.

 

Bali Maharaja, by the grace of Prahlada Maharaja, got the seed of devotional service, and when that seed developed, he achieved the ultimate fruit of that service, namely love of Godhead (prema pum-artho mahan), immediately upon the appearance of Lord Vamanadeva.

 

_________________________

 

ananya-mamata—having a sense of relationships with no others; visnau—in Lord Visnu, or Krsna; mamata—the sense of ownership; prema-sa?gata—endowed only with love; bhaktih—devotional service; iti—thus; ucyate—is said; bhisma—by Bhisma; prahlada—by Prahlada Maharaja; uddhava—by Uddhava; naradaih—and by Narada.

 

TRANSLATION

 

“ ‘When one develops an unflinching sense of ownership or possessiveness in relation to Lord Visnu, or, in other words, when one thinks Visnu and no one else to be the only object of love, such an awakening is called bhakti [devotion] by exalted persons like Bhisma, Prahlada, Uddhava and Narada.’

 

__________________________

 

krsna-nama—the holy name of Lord Krsna; la?a—chanting; nace—dance; prema-vanyaya—in the inundation of the flood of love of Godhead; bhase—float; narada—the sage Narada; prahlada-adi—and devotees like Prahlada; ase—come; manuсya-prakaзe—as if human beings.

 

TRANSLATION

 

All of them, including the great sage Narada and devotees like Prahlada, came here as if human beings, chanting the holy names of Lord Kесna together and dancing and floating in the inundation of love of Godhead.

 

_____________________________

 

 

So we see practically how Prahlada Maharaja immediately attained the state of prema. Here it is said, prema-gadgadaya vaca. Prema, that prema is not this prema. The lusty desire, that is not prema. Prema, one has to learn, one has to go through the disciplic or discipline to attain the state of prema. As Prahlada Maharaja, so he first of all followed the instruction of Brahma, then immediately he got the favor of Lord Nеsiаhadeva, and after getting that he got the prema state. You cannot go immediately to the prema state. That is also rьpa-raghunatha-pade. Rupa-raghunatha, Rupa Goswami has said (indistinct),

 

So Prahlada Maharaja, he is on the stage of prema, prema-gadgadaya vaca tan-nyasta-hеdayekсanah. when you attain the stage of prema, then your core of heart is cleansed for welcoming, He is there, for seeing.

 

He’ll not expose Himself, but if you attain the stage of prema, as Prahlada Maharaja attained, then you will see Him. How you will see? Sadaiva, always. Not that for two minutes I see and Kесna is no more there. No, not like that. Premaпjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva. Sadaiva means constant, incessantly. Yoh can see.

 

Prahlada Maharaja, althohgh born of a demonic father, he was completely pure. He was completely on the transcendental stage. Therefore he could offer prayers to the Lord; others cannot. So a Vaiсnava is very humble. He... Althohgh everyone has admitted that he is on the stage of prema, bht he is a Vaisnava. He’s thinking that “I am the son of Hiranyakasipu. How I can offer?” This is Vaisnava humblnnnss. That is the tnaching of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

[anadi]

Praladha Maharaja is not a jnani, a person who has as prayojan mukti.

And even this person has prema.

And not even He but we also.

 

nitya siddha krsna prema sadya kabhu naya

shravan adi shuddha-citte kareya udaya

 

Pure love of krsna is eternally established in the jiva.

It is not to be gained from another source.

When the heart is purified begining with hearing (shravan adi) the citta is purified and prema bloomes.

 

The problen is only how developed is this prema.

 

Praladha Maharaja is not a jnani,

he is a jnani BHAKTA

What is the so called defect in Praladha Maharaja.

The defect is that he cannot think of an intimate relationship with his Ishta Deva.

His extactic feelings are in awe and reverence.

 

Krsna in Vaikuntha is not in his private House, He is almost like beeing in the office.

We can take for example of a president of state.

His servants in the office cannot have the intimate relations as his family at home.

 

The intimate home of Sri Krsna is Vraja, but he disguises Himself to satisfay the love of all His devotees according the maturity of prema they have.

 

Even Hanuman cannot imagine himself to share the same bed with His Ishta deva Sri Ramacandra.

The majestey and oppulence of Sri Rama makes Hanuman think that such a behaviour would be an offence.

 

Hanumman would never be alloud to come to Vrindavan.

If he would see that Mother Yashoda is twisting the ears of his Lord he would commit some offense against Mother Yashoda, and all the brajabasi.

 

Yes Praladha Maharaja is a bhakta,

which is under the spell of the opullence and majesty of the Lord. He would never imagine to kiss the lord, or to sport with Him in the water.

Why? because he is very aware of the Goddhood of Vishnu.

And a feeling of continous respect, distance which is nourished by his jnana will hamper him to be more intimate

with his Lord.

[kailasa]

You think prema=madhurya rasa. No, it is no right vision.

[anadi]

nitya siddha krsna prema sadya kabhu naya

shravan adi shuddha-citte kareya udaya

 

Pure love of krsna is eternally established in the jiva.

It is not to be gained from another source.

When the heart is purified begining with hearing (shravan adi) the citta is purified and prema bloomes.

 

In Bhakti rasamrita Sindhu are described the syptoms of uttama bhakti

2.bhava rupa - the sentiments accompanying the action

----------------- which are the heart of bhakti, are of two types

-----------a) STAYI - BHAVA- RUPA which is priti or love, which refers to the MANIFESTATION of the permanent sentiment of ------------------love of God in one of the primary relationships

-------------------------shanta - neutrality

-------------------------dasya - transcendental loving service

-------------------------sakhya - transcendental loving friendship

-------------------------vatsalya - transcendental loving parenthood (where the bhakta is the parent and the Lord --------------------surrenders to the love and care of His beloved devotee)

-------------------------madhura - transcendental amorous love; the most intimate and sweet

 

[anadi]

**I am quite sure, Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada never write that Parlada Maharaja is in vatsalya rasa, and this, just because he understands the science of rasa. He is a rupa-anuga.

 

"...Here the feelings of Prahlada Maharaja were in the mellow of vatsalya, filial love and affection."

SB 7.4.40 PURPORT

 

I have to say that this statement of Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada is contradictory to the definition of vatsalya rasa given by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu and reminded again in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu Bindhu by Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakur.

This is contradictory to the position given By Srila Sanatana Gosvami in Brihad Bhagavatamrita.

 

Later Srila Bhaktivinota Thakura explains again vatsalya rasa in Jaiva Dharma.

 

If somebody knows some explanation that can reconcile the statements of the previous acaryas, with the explanation of SB Svami Prabhupada, please help.

 

JAIVA DHARMA

Chapter Thirty

Rasa-vicara

The Rasas

Anubhavas of Vatsalya and Madhura Rasas

Today, after honouring kichari prasadam, Vijaya-kumara and Vrajanatha saw the samadhi of Haridasa Thakura. Then they saw the temple of Sri Tota-Gopinatha, and then they went to the temple of Sri Radha-kantha. There they offered dandavat obeisances to Sri Gopala-guru Gosvami and then sat down. They discussed many things with Sri Dhyanacandra Gosvami. Meanwhile, Sri Gopala-guru Gosvami honoured prasadam and then also sat down on his seat. Vrajanatha humbly asked him about vatsalya-bhakti rasa. Sri Gopala-guru Gosvami said,

"In vatsalya-rasa Krsna is the

VISHAYA (the object of love - the child),

and His elder relatives and superiors are the

ASHRAYA (the container of love). Krsna's body is dark and handsome. He has all virtues. He is gentle , a pleasing speaker, honest, sincere, shy, humble, respectful, and generous. The king and queen of Vraja, Rohini, the elder gopis, Devaki, Kunti, Vasudeva and Sandipani Muni are included among the devotees in vatsalya rasa. Nanda and Yasoda are the best among them.

The UDDIPANAS (the stimuli) for vatsalya rasa

include Krsna's kaumara age and other ages

and His form,

garments,

childhood,

restlessness,

talking,

joking and

pastimes.

Vrajanatha: What are the anubhavas in this rasa?

Gosvami: The anubhavas include smelling Krsna's head, massaging His limbs, offering blessings to Him, giving orders to Him, caressing Him, protecting Him, and giving good advice to Him, kissing Him, hugging Him and calling His name are also included among these activities.

Vrajanatha: What are the sattvika ecstatic symptoms in this rasa?

Gosvami: The sattvika ecstatic symptoms in this rasa include milk flowing from the breasts and the eight ecstatic symptoms that begin with becoming stunned.

Vrajanatha: What are the vyabhicari-bhavas in this rasa?

Gosvami: The vyabhicaris in vatsalya rasa are like those in prita-rasa (dasya rasa).

Vrajanatha: What are the sthayi-bhavas in this rasa?

Gosvami: The sthayi-bhavas are mercy and love that is free from awe and veneration. The parental love felt by Yasoda and other great devotees is naturally very strong. The sthayi-bhava in this rasa proceeds from prema, to sneha and raga. Lord Balarama's rasa is a mixture of dasya-rasa and vatsalya rasa. King Yudhisthira's rasa is a mixture of vatsalya, dasya and sakhya. King Ugrasensa's rasa is a mixture of vatsalya and sakhya. The rasa of Nakula, Sahadeva, Narada Muni and many others is a mixture of sakhya and dasya. The rasa of Siva, Garuda, Uddhava and many other is a mixture of dasya and sakhya.

Vrajanatha: O master, now we have heard your description of vatsalya-rasa. Please be merciful now and describe madhura rasa, the most exalted of the rasas. By hearing your description we will become fortunate.

Gosvami: Madhura-rasa is said to be the most important of the bhakti-rasas. A living entity who has taken shelter of the material rasas may become devoted to the Supreme Lord and may thus gradually turn from the things of the material world and thus attain renunciation. A person who is not renounced in this way is not qualified to understand the spiritual rasas. Therefore the people in general are not qualified to understand the madhura-rasa. Madhura-rasa is very difficult to understand. It is not easy to find a person qualified to understand it. This rasa is very confidential. Therefore it is appropriate to keep it hidden from general view. Therefore, even though many things could be said about madhura-rasa, I will describe it only briefly.

Vrajanatha: O master, I am a follower of the cowherd boy Sri Subala. Please consider what I am qualified to hear, and tell me only that much.

 

[anadi]

Those devotees who execute arcana worship for Radha Krsna in vaidhi bhakti impelled by the rules of the shastra, but also developed some spontaneous feelings go either to Mathura or Dvaraka.

And the ones that are spontaneously attracted to Radha Krsna and follow in a pure form the path of raganuga go to Goloka Vindavan.

This Kingdom has the form of a lotus flower, and in its centre is the residence of Nanda baba.

Devotees that are fully drowned in raganuga bhakti, attain there positions, by which they are parts of the pastimes Krsna s.