Women and sannyasa

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Saw this on another site:

 

 

...This is because Srila Prabhupada was a fully empowered and realized preacher. His spiritual depth was clearly evident and the success of his mission is proof of this depth. The entire mission was riding on the waves of his bhava. It was his depth of realization that empowered him to make the changes he did in order to make the mission successful in the West. We believe only this kind of empowered personality can make these sorts of changes. It is not that any person can concoct a system of bhakti that is relevant. This sort of preacher must have deep realization and insight into Gaudiya siddhanta. With this merit and footing in the spiritual realm, such a person can judge, as Srila Prabhupada did, what changes will keep our movement relevant in the world while remaining Krishna conscious.

 

The spirit of Srila Prabhupada was essence seeking. He made necessary changes in order to fulfill the desire of his gurudeva, and doing so, he changed much of his guru's system, in order to be faithful to his guru's vision. We must remember that scripture is not our only reference guide. We also have the authority of guru and sadhu to integrate.

 

It may be time that we look again at the mission and have devotees of spiritual standing judge whether we should again re-adjust some things in order to fit modern time and circumstance. I believe Swami Tripurari is among those devotees who are qualified to do this.

 

Changing some of the details that were established by Srila Prabhupada to fit present time and circumstance may sound like heresy, but this is what Srila Prabhupada himself did, while remaining true to the missionary spirit of his gurudeva. This is what Swami Tripurari is talking about in his article 'Women and Sanyassa'. Otherwise, with all this said, it is critical to ask: Why shouldn't women today take sanyassa? The criteria should be scriptural knowledge and purity. Who then can deny that there are women who meet these criteria?

 

 

 

This was in response to Srila Prabhupada's written instructions as follows:

 

 

"A woman is not supposed to take sannyasa. So-called spiritual societies concocted in modern times give sannyasa even to women, although there is no sanction in the Vedic literature for a woman's accepting sannyasa. Otherwise, if it were sanctioned, Kardama Muni could have taken his wife and given her sannyasa." (S-B 3.24.40 Purport)

 

 

[Pritesh01]

Sannyasa And Talking To Women

Taken from web page

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0112/ET28-7065.html

 

BY BHAKTIRATNA SADHU SWAMI

 

EDITORIAL, Dec 28 (VNN) — Dear Vaisnavas, Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to Shrila Prabhupada and Shri Shri Gaura-Nitai!

 

After accepting the sannyasa order of life on 18 Sept 2001 at 30 years of age, I was very eager to study deeply the instructions of Srila Prabhupada, the acaryas and Lord Caitanya for the dealings of a sannyasi especially towards Matajis. Because I have repeatedly seen with my eyes the number of casualities in the sannyasa ashram and in almost all cases I have carefully noticed that the cause was talking too much with Matajis.

A sannyasi is restricted from even hearing a woman's name, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu conducted Himself very strictly in His vow.

(Cc Antya 12.59)

 

 

I have extracted the essence from a series of quotes and came out with the following conclusive quotes which strictly prohibit a sannyasi from talking to women. Many Prabhupada's quotes and the commentaries of Srila Bhaktivinoda and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta on Chota Haridasa's pastime are especially striking and very clear in this regard.

 

Ofcourse Srila Prabhupada says in the SB 9.19.17 purport: "Learning the etiquette of how to deal with women does not free one from sexual attraction." It is actually one's attachment for chanting and one's advancement in Krsna consciousness which protect us from maya. But following the etiquette is also very important because even a sincere devotee may fall down due to little bit of carelessness.

 

In regards to great personalities like Srila Prabhupada, Srila Narada Muni, Srila Haridasa Thakura, Srila Ramananda Raya etc. apparently trangressing these strict principles of sannyasa, there are many relevant quotes at the end in which Srila Prabhupada says that empowered devotees for preaching can sometimes do such things but ordinary persons should never imitate them.

 

At the end, I have given the rules which I have made for myself as a sannyasi during my preaching work so that I can strictly follow Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya and the acaryas. These are given not to boast about myself but because they may prove useful for some devotees who feel that preaching is possible even while following the principles of the renounciation strictly. I am the most fallen person with no power to control my senses. That is why I have made these rules for myself, not to prove a point over anyone else.

 

QUOTES BEGIN:

 

SB 7.12.7: RIGIDLY AVOID TALKING TO WOMEN

 

varjayet pramada-gatham, agrhastho brhad-vratah;

indriyani pramathini, haranty api yater manah.

 

A brahmacari, or one who has not accepted the grhastha-asrama [family life], must rigidly avoid talking with women or about women, for the senses are so powerful that they may agitate even the mind of a sannyasi, a member of the renounced order of life.

 

PURPORT:

 

Brahmacarya essentially means the vow not to marry but to observe strict celibacy (brhad-vrata). A brahmacari or sannyasi should avoid talking with women or reading literature concerning talks between man and woman. The injunction restricting association with women is the basic principle of spiritual life. Associating or talking with women is never advised in any of the Vedic literatures.

 

SB 11.17.33: NEVER GLANCE OR CONVERSE WITH A WOMAN

 

strinam niriksana-sparsa-samlapa-ksvelanadikam;

pranino mithuni-bhutan agrhastho 'gratas tyajet.

 

Those who are not married - sannyasis, vanaprasthas and brahmacaris-should never associate with women by glancing, touching, conversing, joking or sporting. Neither should they ever associate with any living entity engaged in sexual activities.

 

SB 6.18.41, purport: NEVER HEAR A WOMAN'S VOICE OR SEE HER BEAUTIFUL FACE. OTHERWISE THERE WILL BE DANGER IN THE SOCIETY.

 

Sannyasa means giving up the company of women, but if a sannyasi hears the voice of a woman and sees her beautiful face, he certainly becomes attracted and is sure to fall down. There have been many examples. Even the great sage Visvamitra fell a victim to Menaka. Therefore a person desiring to advance in spiritual consciousness must be especially careful not to see a woman's face or hear a woman's voice.To see a woman's face and appreciate its beauty or to hear a woman's voice and appreciate her singing as very nice is a subtle falldown for a brahmacari or sannyasi. [...] We therefore request all the members of the Krsna consciousness movement-both men and women-not to be attracted by bodily features but only to be attracted by Krsna. Then everything will be all right. Otherwise there will be danger.

 

SB Introduction: SEATS OF WOMAN ACCOMODATED FAR FROM A SANNYASI

 

The Lord was an ideal sannyasi. No woman could approach the Lord even to offer respects. Women's seats were accommodated far away from the Lord. As an ideal teacher and acarya, He was very strict in the routine work of a sannyasi.

 

Bg 16.1-3 purport: EVEN THE MOST LIBERAL INCARNATION STRICTLY FOLLOWED THE RULES OF THE SANNYASA ASHRAM IN ORDER TO TEACH US. THIS IS NOT A SIGN OF HATRED FOR WOMEN AS A CLASS BUT IT IS A STRICTURE IMPOSED ON A SANNYASI.

 

Lord Caitanya was an ideal sannyasi, and when He was at Puri His feminine devotees could not even come near to offer their respects. They were advised to bow down from a distant place. This is not a sign of hatred for women as a class, but it is a stricture imposed on the sannyasi not to have close connections with women. One has to follow the rules and regulations of a particular status of life in order to purify his existence. For a sannyasi, intimate relations with women and possession of wealth for sense gratification are strictly forbidden. The ideal sannyasi was Lord Caitanya Himself, and we can learn from His life that He was very strict in regards to women. Although He is considered to be the most liberal incarnation of Godhead, accepting the most fallen conditioned souls, He strictly followed the rules and regulations of the sannyasa order of life in connection with association with woman.

 

SB 4.25.62 purport: MEANING OF SANNYASA MEANS GIVE UP ALL CONTACT WITH WOMEN

 

On the whole, for spiritual advancement, one must give up the company of women. This is what is meant by the order of sannyasa, the renounced order.

 

Cc Madhya 22.88-90 purp: COMPLETELY FORBIDDEN

 

The brahmacari, vanaprastha and sannyasi are completely forbidden to associate with women.

 

SB 7.15.36: KEEP STRICTLY ALOOF FROM THE ASSOCIATION WITH WOMEN

 

In our Krsna consciousness movement it is advised, therefore, that the sannyasis and brahmacaris keep strictly aloof from the association of women so that there will be no chance of their falling down again as victims of lusty desires.

 

Cc Antya 5.36-37: CHANGES IN MY MIND & BODY

 

"I am a sannyasi," He said, "and I certainly consider Myself renounced. But what to speak of seeing a woman, if I even hear the name of a woman, I feel changes in My mind and body. Therefore who could remain unmoved by the sight of a woman? It is very difficult.

 

Cc Antya 12.59: NOT TO EVEN HEAR THE NAME OF A WOMAN

 

A sannyasi is restricted from even hearing a woman's name, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu conducted Himself very strictly in His vow.

 

SB 2.4.20 purp: NEVER HEAR THE SONGS SUNG BY THE FAIR SEX

 

He (Lord Caitanya) never even heard the prayers of the deva-dasis offered in the temple of Jagannatha because a sannyasi is forbidden to hear songs sung by the fair sex.

 

SB 9.19.17: NO WOMAN SHOULD COME NEAR A SANNYASI

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was most strict in such dealings, especially after He accepted the sannyasa order. Indeed, no woman could come near Him to offer Him respect.

 

PROBLEMS IN ISKCON

 

Srila Prabhupada said that ISKCON is facing so many problems inspite of having a perfect acarya & perfect books because the sannyasis & brahmacaries associate too much with women.(Source unknown)

 

Bhagavad-gita 1.37-39, London, July 27, 1973: VERY CAUTIOUS BECAUSE HE HAS GREAT RESPONSIBILITY

 

So this is the duty. They should be very cautious. A sannyasi, they should be very cautious. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, sannyasira alpa-chidre bahu kari' mane. An ordinary grhastha, or... Grhastha only, If he talks with woman nobody will blame. He is grhastha. But if a sannyasi talks with woman very intimately, oh, immediately people will take note of it. Sannyasira alpa-chidre bahu kari' mane. That is the practice. He should be very cautious. So a devotee, a sannyasi, they have got very, very great responsibility. People will very easily criticize them.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.10.7, Mayapura, June 22, 1973: WE HAVE TO FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF LORD CAITANYA WHO ACCEPTED SANNYASA

 

But Caitanya Mahaprabhu inaugurated. He Himself became sannyasa. Therefore we are trying to follow His footsteps, to accept sannyasa. But we should not become a sannyasi like Ravana. No. We should try to follow the footsteps of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was very strict. No woman could approach Him. They were allowed to offer obeisances from distant place. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was very strict about asso...

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.6.2, Vrndavana, November 24, 1976: IF ONE IS ABLE TO STRICTLY FOLLOW THE SANNYASA RULES & REGULATIONS THEN ONLY HE SHOULD TAKE SANNYASA.

 

We should not be sentimentally very much anxious--"Please give me sannyasa, give me sannyasa"--and then fall down and go to hell. That is not good. That is not good. If one is able to strictly follow the sannyasa rules and regulation, he should take.

 

SB 2.7.6 purp: NO PLACE FOR ASSOCIATION WITH WOMEN

 

Human life is meant for such tapasya, with the great vow of celibacy, or brahmacarya. In the rigid life of tapasya, there is no place for the association of women.

 

IT IS NOT THE BUSINESSS OF SANNYASIS TO PREACH TO WOMEN:

 

Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Maharaja (since he was a sannyasi) did not very much like preaching amongst women, so you should also avoid such meetings. (Letter to: Acyutananda, Los Angeles, 4 July, 1970)

 

COMPLETELY FORBIDDEN TO ASSOCIATE WITH WOMEN:

 

The brahmacari, vanaprastha and sannyasi are completely forbidden to associate with women. (Cc Madhya 22.88-90 purp)

 

WE SHOULD TRY TO FOLLOW IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF LORD CAITANYA MAHAPRABHU WITH RESPECTS TO HIS STRICTNESS IN THE SANNYASA ASHRAM

 

But Caitanya Mahaprabhu inaugurated. He Himself became sannyasa. Therefore we are trying to follow His footsteps, to accept sannyasa. But we should not become a sannyasi like Ravana. No. We should try to follow the footsteps of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was very strict. No woman could approach Him. They were allowed to offer obeisances from distant place. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was very strict about asso...( Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.10.7, Mayapura, June 22, 1973)

 

NO PLACE FOR ASSOCIATION WITH WOMEN

 

Human life is meant for such tapasya, with the great vow of celibacy, or brahmacarya. In the rigid life of tapasya, there is no place for the association of women. And because human life is meant for tapasya, for self-realization, factual human civilization, as conceived by the system of sanatana-dharma or the school of four castes and four orders of life, prescribes rigid dissociation from woman in three stages of life. But there are many brahmacaris who do not go home to become householders but continue the life of naisthika-brahmacaris, without any connection with women. They accept the order of sannyasa, or the renounced order of life, knowing well that combination with women is an unnecessary burden that checks self-realization. (SB 2.7.6 purp.)

 

CENT PERCENT, NO CONNECTION WITH WOMEN, THIS IS SANNYASA. THAT IS THE REAL PLATFORM OF RENOUNCEMENT.

 

That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's... The sannyasa life is... What is that? Cent percent, no connection with woman. That is sannyasa. What we have renounced? We have renounced... We are using the motorcar, we are using this machine, we are eating, we are sleeping in nice room-what is the renouncement? Only renouncement is no connection with woman. That is the real platform of renouncement. If one can renounce woman's connection, then he's liberated man. That is very, very difficult. (Morning Walk January 31, 1977, Bhubaneshwar)

 

CANNOT HAVE ANY CONNECTION WITH WOMEN

 

Only a Sannyasi cannot have any connection with women. (Letter to: Subala, Navadvipa, 29 October, 1967)

 

WOMEN CAN SEW CLOTHES FOR SANNYASI DEITIES WHAT TO SPEAK OF SERVING THE SANNYASIS THEMSELVES

 

So far your suggestion that they sew clothes for the sannyasis Deities it is not possible. Sannyasis may have no connection with women. (Letter to: Jayatirtha, Calcutta, 13 January, 1976)

 

SHOULD NEVER ASSOCIATE WITH WOMEN

 

Sannyasis should never associate with women. (Bg 18.5 purport)

 

STRICTLY PROHIBITED FROM ASSOCIATION WITH WOMEN

 

Out of the four social divisions, the brahmacari, vanaprastha and the sannyasi-three orders-are strictly prohibited from the association of women;. (SB 3.31.39 purp)

 

NEVER EVEN THINK OF WOMEN OR LOOK AT THEM. THIS IS FIRST-CLASS BRAHMACARYA.

 

One should not even think of women or look at them, to say nothing of talking with them. This is called first-class brahmacarya. (SB 6.1.3 purp)

 

EVEN SIGHT OF WOMEN IS WORSE THAN DRINKING POISON.

 

For a sannyasi, association with women or even the sight of women is more undesirable than taking poison. (SB 11.18 summary)

 

DEMIGODS TEMPT THE SANNYASI BY SENDING WOMEN

 

"This man taking sannyasa is going to surpass us and go back home, back to Godhead." Thus thinking, the demigods create stumbling blocks on the path of the sannyasi by appearing before him in the shape of his former wife or other women and attractive objects. But the sannyasi should pay the demigods and their manifestations no heed. (SB 11.18.14)

 

EVEN THE EXALTED VAISNAVIS WOULD OFFER OBEISANCES FROM FAR TO THE LORD

 

For example, Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya, He took sannyasa. He was very...

 

Sannyasi. For a sannyasi to talk with women, to mix with women, is very restricted. So he was very much careful about Him, about this matter. Even some of the women who were wives of His disciples and devotees, they could not come near Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They would offer their obeisances from a distant place. They were not forbidden, but that was the system.

 

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.1.5, Los Angeles, August 13, 1972)

 

HYPOCRICY OF TAKING SANNYASA & MIXING WITH WOMEN. THAT IS WHY NO MORE SANNYASIS.

 

And this kind of hypocrisy-they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman.

 

This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped.

 

There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience. And at least, we are not going to create new sannyasis. And those who have fallen down, let them marry, live like respectable gentlemen. I have no objection. (Room Conversation, January 7, 1977, Bombay)

 

ALL THIRD-CLASS MEN

 

Prabhupada said that this was his Godbrothers' main argument against Westerners' taking sannyasa: they would not be able to maintain the strict vows. He said that a German Godbrother of his had also caused disruption by his intimate dealings with women.

 

"What can I do?" Prabhupada said sadly. "I am working with all third-class men-fools and rascals. Things are going on simply by Krsna's mercy.One who falls from sannyasa," Prabhupada replied, "is called vantasi, one who vomits and then eats it." (SPL 50)

 

BY ACCEPTING ANY KIND OF SERVICE FROM WOMAN MAN IS ENTRAPPED. ASSOCIATION BEGINS BY ACCEPTING SERVICE FROM HER.

 

SB 3.31.40

yopayati sanair maya, yosid deva-vinirmita; tam iksetatmano mrtyum, trnaih kupam ivavrtam.

 

The woman, created by the Lord, is the representation of maya, and one who associates with such maya by accepting services must certainly know that this is the way of death, just like a blind well covered with grass.

 

PURPORT

Sometimes it happens that a rejected well is covered by grass, and an unwary traveler who does not know of the existence of the well falls down, and his death is assured. Similarly, association with a woman begins when one accepts service from her, because woman is especially created by the Lord to give service to man. By accepting her service, a man is entrapped. If he is not intelligent enough to know that she is the gateway to hellish life, he may indulge in her association very liberally. This is restricted for those who aspire to ascend to the transcendental platform. Even fifty years ago in Hindu society, such association was restricted. A wife could not see her husband during the daytime. Householders even had different residential quarters. The internal quarters of a residential house were for the woman, and the external quarters were for the man. Acceptance of service rendered by a woman may appear very pleasing, but one should be very cautious in accepting such service because it is clearly said that woman is the gateway to death, or forgetfulness of one's self. She blocks the path of spiritual realization.

 

Cc Antya 2.117: LORD CAITANYA CANNOT TOLERATE TO SEE THE FACE OF A RENUNCIANT WHO TALKS TO WOMEN. CANNOT TALK TO WOMEN EVEN IF HE IS FREE FROM FROM SINFUL DESIRES OR EVEN FOR THE SERVICE OF THE LORD. IF HE DOES SO HE BECOMES A DHARMOCCHEDI ACCORDING TO THAKURA BHAKTIVINODA.

 

prabhu kahe,--"vairagi kare prakrti sambhasana

dekhite na paron ami tahara vadana

 

The Lord replied, "I cannot tolerate seeing the face of a person who has accepted the renounced order of life but who still talks with a woman.

 

Amrta-pravaha-bhasya (Thakura Bhaktivinoda): If a Vaisnava is a grhastha, he can stay with his wife and family. Otherwise he can give up relationship with women and become a renunciant. Once he becomes a renunciant he is no longer allowed (adhikara) to see (darshan) or talk (sambhasana) with women.

 

Even if he is free from sinful desires or even if it is required for the purpose of rendering some devotional service, to have a relationship with women in the above two ways is not the duty of a renunciant. That is why the person who talks to women inspite of being in the renounced order of life, I consider him (the Lord is speaking) a transgressor of religion (dharmocchedi) and will not see his face again.

 

[Comment: Very beautiful, strikingly clear and important purport by Thakura Bhaktivinoda.]

 

Anubhasya (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta): [...] If while gradually developing attachment to Krsna, a renunciant cultivates detachment from things not related to Krsna's service and sense-objects which are meant for material enjoyment. But while doing so, if his external dealings in the eyes of the people do not strictly exhibit that detachment, then people will suspect him of duplicity or hypocricy and they will not be able to develop their faith in such a renunciant.

 

[Note: Thus in return the preaching of that renunciant is undermined.]

 

Antya 2.120: A SANNYASI WHO TALKS TO WOMEN BECOMES A DHARMA-DHVAJI & DHARMA-KALANKA AND HIS ASSOCIATION SHOULD BE AVOIDED. IF HE TRIES TO IMITATE GREAT PERSONALITIES, HIS FALLDOWN IS GUARANTEED.

 

ksudra-jiva saba markata-vairagya kariya

indriya carana bule 'prakrti' sambhasiya"

 

"There are many persons with little in their possession who accept the renounced order of life like monkeys. They go here and there engaging in sense gratification and speaking with women."

 

Amrta-pravaha-bhasya (Thakura Bhaktivinoda): Only such a sadhaka in whose heart bhava has arisen and thus real renunciation has taken birth, after seriously and sincerely practicing sadhana-bhakti for a prolonged period of time, is actually eligible for the renounced order of life. One who accepts the saffron garments of a sannyasi before achieving such a platform is known as a markata-vairagi. When such unqualified souls due to various reasons accept the renounced order of life, they are pushed by the urges of their senses and thus they go and talk with prakrti or women. Such people even though in the renounced order of life, they are called dharma-dhvajis (dangerous pretenders) and dharma-kalankas (black spots on pure religion) and their association should be compulsorily avoided.

 

[Comment: We can thus conclude that one should transgress the strict principles of the sannyasa ashram unless one has reached the platform of bhava.]

 

Anubhasya (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta): [.] For the sober and inquisitive sannyasis, this offense of talking to women leads to great inauspiciousness for them personally. Unfortunately due to a poor fund of knowledge if they decide to talk to women and justify that action by citing the examples of the topmost paramhansas like the greatly learned Srila Ramananda Raya and the great renunciant Srila Narottama das Thakura, then their falldown is guaranteed.

 

(Comment: One cannot imitate the advanced and empowered eternal associates of the Lord or justify one's actions by naming them.)

 

Cc Antya 2.123: FOR A SANNYASI TALKING TO WOMEN FOR THE SERVICE OF THE LORD IS A SMALL OFFENSE

 

"alpa aparadha, prabhu karaha prasada

ebe siksa ha-ila na karibe aparadha"

 

"Haridasa has committed a small offense," they said. "Therefore, O Lord, please be merciful to him. Now he has received a sufficient lesson. In the future he will not commit such an offense."

 

Amrta-pravaha-bhasya (Thakura Bhaktivinoda): Alpa-aparadha - Chota Haridasa has no ulterior or any other intention for begging rice from Srimati Madhavi-devi, except the desire to serve Mahaprabhu by rendering some service to him by getting the rice. Still in that act there was an offense committed. After accepting the dress or color of the renounced order, to talk to women is a maha-aparadha on the part of that renunciant. But even to talk to women for the direct service of the Lord is considered an ordinary (samanya) offense on part of that devotee.

 

Cc Antya 2.124: THE LORD DOES NOT LIKE TO SEE ANY RENUNCIANT WHO TALKS TO WOMAN

 

prabhu kahe,--"mora vasa nahe mora mana

prakrti-sambhasi vairagi na kare darsana

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "My mind is not under My control. It does not like to see anyone in the renounced order who talks with women.

 

Anubhasya (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta) at the end of the chapter:

 

A pure aspirant who wants to render service to Lord Gaura and Lord Krsna should learn the following teachings from this pastime of chastisement of Chota Haridas by Lord Caitanya:

 

(1) Lord Gaurasundera being supremely merciful to the jivas, externally rejected His own eternal associate Chota Haridasa. If the Lord had not rejected him, the weak jivas in Kali-yuga would have taken illegal shelter of this incident and become a victim of prakrta-sahajiya mentality. They would have been easily able to take help of this incident to justify their materialist deviation or ofshoot in the name of vaisnava-dharma. In this way they would have to rot in hell. Then the Lord's mercy unto them would not have been revealed.

 

(2) Through this chastisement pastime the Lord is instructing one and all how the (Pracarkari) Preahers acaryas and (acarakari) exemplary vaisnavas should behave.

 

(3) The Lord is teaching 'vairagya' which means to completely give up any sense-object not related to Krsna. In this way the devotees should leas a pure, simple and sinless life, then they will be able to render service to Lord Gauranga (gaura-kainkarya).

 

(Comments: Other points are left out because they are not directly related.

 

But it is clear that not following the strict principles will encourage 'prakrta-sahajiya' mentality among the Vaisnava society.)

 

Gauranga-smarana-mangala stotram: Text 62

 

nirvinnanam vipula-patanam strisu sambhasanam yat

tat-tad-dosat sva-mata-carakaraksanartham ya isah

dosat ksudrad api laghu-harim varjayitva mumoda

tam gaurangam vimala-caritam sadhu-murtim smarami

 

To protect His sannyasi followers from the vices that follow from talking with women which may lead to their subsequent falldown, He was very happy as He rejected Chota Haridasa for a small offense. I meditate on Lord Gauranga, whose activities are faultless, and who is the personification of a sincere devotee.

 

>From Prema Vivarta by Srila Jagadananda Pandita, quoted in the Nectar Of Instruction:

 

O RENUNCIANT! ALWAYS REMEMBERING THE REJECTION OF CHOTA HARIDAS BY LORD CAITANYA, PLEASE DO NOT TALK TO WOMAN EVEN IN DREAMS.

 

svapane o na kara bhai stri-sambhasana

grhe stri chadiya bhai asiyacha vana

yadi caha pranaya rakhite gaurangera sane

chota haridasera katha thake yena mane

 

Do not talk to women even in dreams. You have accepted the renounced order of life with a vow that forbids you to associate with women. If you wish to associate or maintain a relationship with Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, you must always remember the incident of Chota Haridasa and how he was rejected by the Lord.

 

REGARDING WHY WE CAN'T DO JUST AS SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS DONE:

 

UNTIL THE TIME THE DUALTIES CONTINUE ONE SHOULD STRICTLY FOLLOW...

 

kalpayitvatmana yavad, abhasam idam isvarah; dvaitam tavan na viramet, tato hy asya viparyayah.

 

As long as a living entity is not completely self-realized-as long as he is not independent of the misconception of identifying with his body, which is nothing but a reflection of the original body and senses-he cannot be relieved of the conception of duality, which is epitomized by the duality between man and woman. Thus there is every chance that he will fall down because his intelligence is bewildered.

 

PURPORT Here is another important warning that a man must save himself from attraction to woman. [.]Until that time, the duality continues, and the conception of man and woman also continues. In this stage, one should be extremely careful about mixing with women. No one should think himself perfect and forget the sastric instruction that one should be very careful about associating even with his daughter, mother or sister, not to speak of other women. (SB 7.12.10)

 

ORDINARY PERSONS SHOULD NOT IMITATE THE ACTIVITIES OF NARADA MUNI, HARIDASA THAKURA & ACARYAS (LIKE SRILA PRABHUPADA) ESPECIALLY EMPOWERED TO BROADCAST THE GLORIES OF THE LORD. ORDINARY PERSONS MUST STRICTLY OBSERVE THE RULES & REGULATIONS BY STAYING ALOOF FROM THE ASSOCIATION OF WOMEN.

 

One should not remain in a secluded place with a woman, even one's mother, sister, or daughter. Nonetheless, although one is strictly prohibited from staying with a woman in a secluded place, Narada Muni gave shelter to Prahlada Maharaja's young mother, who rendered service to him with great devotion and faith. Does this mean that Narada Muni transgressed the Vedic injunctions? Certainly he did not. Such injunctions are intended for mundane creatures, but Narada Muni is transcendental to mundane categories. Narada Muni is a great saint and is transcendentally situated. Therefore, although he was a young man, he could give shelter to a young woman and accept her service. Haridasa Thakura also spoke with a young woman, a prostitute, in the dead of night, but the woman could not deviate his mind. Instead, she became a Vaisnavi, a pure devotee, by the benediction of Haridasa Thakura.

 

Ordinary persons, however, should not imitate such highly elevated devotees.

 

Ordinary persons must strictly observe the rules and regulations by staying aloof from the association of women. No one should imitate Narada Muni or Haridasa Thakura. It is said, vaisnavera kriya-mudra vijne na bujhaya. Even if a man is very advanced in learning, he cannot understand the behavior of a Vaisnava. Anyone can take shelter of a pure Vaisnava, without fear.

 

Therefore in the previous verse it has been distinctly said, devarser antike sakuto-bhaya: Kayadhu, the mother of Prahlada Maharaja, stayed under the protection of Narada Muni without fear from any direction. Similarly, Narada Muni, in his transcendental position, stayed with the young woman without fear of deviation. Narada Muni, Haridasa Thakura and similar acaryas especially empowered to broadcast the glories of the Lord cannot be brought down to the material platform. Therefore one is strictly forbidden to think that the acarya is an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih). (SB 7.7.14 purp)

 

Anubhasya Commentary to Cc Antya 2.120 (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta): [.] For the sober and inquisitive sannyasis, this offense of talking to women leads to great inauspiciousness for them personally. Unfortunately due to a poor fund of knowledge if they decide to talk to women and justify that action by citing the examples of the topmost paramhansas like the greatly learned Srila Ramananda Raya and the great renunciant Srila Narottama das Thakura, then their falldown is guaranteed.

 

THE MOST ADVANCED DEVOTEE CANNOT BE RESTRICTED BY THE RULES & REGULATIONS OF THE VARNASRAMA SYSTEM BUT THEIR EXAMPLE SHOULD NOT BE IMITATED

 

An advanced devotee, who remains aloof from material sense gratification, is not bound by the Vedic social divisions; thus even a householder may live very austerely, traveling and preaching Krsna consciousness away from home, and even a sannyasi may sometimes engage women in the devotional service of Lord Krsna. The most advanced devotees cannot be restricted by the rituals and regulations of the varnasrama system, and they move freely around the world distributing love of Godhead. Mat-para indicates a pure devotee of the Lord who always keeps the Lord fixed in his heart and consciousness. One who falls down to become a victim of sense gratification is not fully established on the platform of mat-para and should rigidly observe the social divisions and regulations to remain steady on the platform of pious human life. (SB 11.17.38 purp)

 

A grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasi and brahmacari should be very careful when associating with women. One is forbidden to sit down in a solitary place even with one's mother, sister or daughter. In our Krsna consciousness movement it has been very difficult to disassociate ourselves from women in our society, especially in Western countries. (SB 5.6.3 purp)

 

PERSONALLY AS A SANNYASI ONE SHOULD FOLLOW. BUT WOMEN SHOULD NEVER BE REFUSED KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. OTHER ARRANGEMENTS SHOULD BE MADE.

 

Dr. Patel: Caitanya Mahaprabhu used to keep women away from...

 

Prabhupada: That is personally as a sannyasi, not that... He never said that women should be refused Krsna consciousness.

 

Dr. Patel: No. Nobody has said so. But they should not mix.

 

Prabhupada: Here in the Western country it is their custom to mix, intermingle freely. How can I stop it? I may stop in my temple, but they will do it outside. So it is impossible. (Morning Walk, January 9, 1977, Bombay)

 

Prabhupada saw that to change the American social system and completely separate the men from the women would not be possible. (SPL 22)

 

FURTHUR QUOTES:

 

NO ONE SHOULD FEEL LIBERATED

 

No one should think himself liberated in the presence of a beautiful woman.

 

(SB 8.12.34 purp)

 

ENCOURAGEMENT FROM OPPOSITE SEX NOT REQUIRED

 

In the varnasrama-dharma system, certain classes, such as the brahmanas and sannyasis, do not need encouragement from the opposite sex. (SB 5.1.29 purp)

 

LORD GAURA WAS EXTREMELY STRICT

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu never even joked with others' wives. As soon as He saw a woman coming, He would immediately give her ample room to pass without talking. He was extremely strict regarding the association of women. (Cc Adi 17.276 purp)

 

ESPECIALLY THE SANNYASA ORDER

 

The object of attraction may even be one's mother, sister or daughter.

 

Therefore, one should be extremely careful in dealings with women. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was most strict in such dealings, especially after He accepted the sannyasa order. Indeed, no woman could come near Him to offer Him respect. Again, one is warned herewith that one should be extremely careful in dealings with women. (SB 9.19.17)

 

NEVER TO TOUCH A WOMEN

 

padapi yuvatim bhiksur, na sprsed daravim api; sprsan kariva badhyeta, karinya anga-sangatah.

 

A saintly person should never touch a woman. In fact, he should not even let his foot touch a wooden doll in the shape of a woman. By bodily contact with a woman he will surely be captured by illusion, just as the elephant is captured by the she-elephant due to his desire to touch her body. (SB 11.8.13)

 

SANNYASI TOUCHES A WOMEN IS WORSE THAN DEATH.

 

"My dear Govinda," He said, "you have saved My life. If I had touched the body of a woman, I would certainly have died. (Cc Antya 13.85)

 

LORD GAURA NEVER HEARD THE 'STRI' WORD

 

'stri' hena nama prabhu ei avatare

sravan-o na karila,-vidita samsare

 

It is well-known throughout the world that the Lord in this incarnation of Gauranga did not even hear the word "woman." (Caitanya-bhagavata. Adi 15.29)

 

>From HH Bhakti Vikasa Swami's upcoming book, 'Lion Guru':

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada several times, told a story to demonstrate how strict Sarasvati Thakura actually was in dealing with women.

 

The wife of O.B.L. Kapoor, who was also the harernama disciple of Sarasvati Thakura, requested to see him in private to speak with him. At that time he was old enough to be her grandfather, and was a very senior, respected, naistik brahmacari-guru, but still he said, "No, I cannot see you alone.

 

Whatever you have to say, do so in the company of others."

 

Dr. Kapoor revealed how Sarasvati Thakura gave harernama to his wife, without even seeing her face, because there was a screen placed between them.

 

I DON'T WANT TO MEET ANY WOMEN. SEND YOUR SON TO ME!

 

The Zamindar (landholder), a very rich man of Navadvipa. His mother was over 60 years old and he brought her to meet Sarasvati Thakura, but he said, "Mother, you stay downstairs. Don't come up. I don't want to meet any women.

 

Send your son to meet me." Even women accompanied by their husbands couldn't come to meet him. During lectures, a fixed screen divided the men and women, so they couldn't see each other. This was very strict.

 

He was always ready and willing to talk with people, except during his half- hour afternoon rest, whether on a train or in a room, and whenever someone went to see him he would definitely say something, but this was not the case with ladies.

 

In Sarasvati Thakura's Gaudiya Bhasya commentary, he always discouraged the association of women within the Math also. They could come and visit and take darshan etc., but not intimately mix-up. They should keep away from the place of cooking, because that's the extension of the Deity service. Very strict.

 

BAMBOO SCREEN

 

Women were always separate from the men, in the public assembly. Chik (a fine bamboo screen for dividing women from men) was used not only in the Gaudiya Math but was also common in public meetings.

 

A WOMAN ENGAGED IN SADHANA-BHAKTI SHOULD NOT ASSOCIATE WITH MEN.

 

Do not associate with women. On the other hand, when a woman is engaged in sadhana-bhakti, she should not associate with men. Associating with the opposite sex is very inauspicious for the advancing devotee. (Bhaktyaloka by Thakura Bhaktivinoda)

 

A WIFE SHOULD ENDEAVOUR IN SPIRITUAL LIFE WITH THE HELP OF HER SISTER & DAUGHTER & OTHER VAISNAVIS. IN THIS WAY ONE SHOULD TOTALLY GIVE UP THE ASSOCIATION OF THE OPPOSITE SEX EVEN FOR SPIRITUAL PRACTICES.

 

The wife should also always endeavor for spiritual perfection with the help of subordinate women such as her sister and daughter. There is no illicit conduct in this, so there will not be any association with women. Therefore, whether one is a householder or a renunciate-all practitioners should totally give up the association with women. The devotees should carefully give up the above mentioned sanga in the form of association. (Bhaktyaloka)

 

 

--

 

 

One example of a "religious" movement expanding all over the world inspite of strict restrictions on renunciates is 'Svaminarayan'. They say that their guru Svaminarayan is Parabrahman. Thus they are Mayavadis. Presently their leader Pramukh Swami (most famous leader) is the world record holder for the most no. of temples in the world 360 odd, and having the biggest Hindu temple outside of India. They have only 500-600 renunciants but millions and millions of followers. They are also the richest religious organization.

 

This success is inspite of the fact that their renunciants don't even see a woman and don't touch money. They try to follow the eight principles of brahmacarya strictly atleast externally. This is what their few followers have to say about the strict rules:

 

(1) "But that's not the reason for the injunction," protests Ritesh Gadhia.

 

A former alumni of IIM Ahmedabad, Gadhia is an aspiring sadhu in Svaminarayan. He explains that during Swaminarayan's ministry in the 18th Century, many ascetics and spiritual leaders abused their positions to molest women. The injunction is for the protection of women rather than the reverse.

 

(2) Adds Vivekjivandas Swami: "The motive for observing celibacy is self-discipline and elevation, not harming or breeding aversion for women." This may be true but it reinforces the society's existing tendency to marginalize them. But the women express no resentment. Neeta Shah is deputy general manager in a public sector company. She is also one of the chief organizers of the women's wing. Gentle and enthusiastic, she brushes away all apprehensions of mariginalization.

 

(3) "The non-interference of the swamis has given us an opportunity to learn to do everything ourselves," she says. "Even a five-year-old girl knows how to manage and organize an assembly." The women's center buzzes with activity. The youth center is convening a meeting in one room, while tiny tots of five and below have their own assembly. In another room, women are busy sorting out answers to a mandatory bi-annual examination on spirituality. Women are responsible for correcting, grading and allotting certificates.

 

The matajis in their cult also have taken it up in large nos. and they preach among the themselves the importance of keeping away from the renunciants in order to protect their vows and follow the instructions of Svaminarayan who wrote it in his book Sikshapatri.

 

Infact many Indians accept them as real sadhus because they have nothing to do with women. And their followers also have great faith in them because of ther strictness. I am trying to say that we can learn something from everywhere. Their preaching at least externally is increasing inspite of their not talking to women. I mean to say there is a chance that a sannyasi can still preach widely while maintaining a strict standard with regards to talking to women. And the casualty risk is considerably reduced.

 

Please note that I don't endorse or support any of the philosphy etc of Svaminarayan. I am quoting these few paragraphs just as an observation.

 

 

--

 

 

To repeat that what follows are the rules which I have made for myself as a sannyasi during my preaching work so that I can strictly follow Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya and the acaryas and I can keep on preaching as a sannyasi for the rest of my life. These are given not to boast about myself but because they may prove useful for some devotees who feel that preaching is possible even while following the principles of the renuunciation strictly. I am the most fallen person with no power to control my senses. That is why I have made these rules for myself, not to prove a point over anyone else.

 

RULES:

 

(1) No talking to matajis including phone calls.

 

(2) No matajis allowed to come to personally meet a sannyasi even with husband.

 

(3) In public lectures or gatherings, women sit at the back and can ask all their questions directly from the back. All the questions of the matajis can be asked at this time. This is the only time when there will talk with matajis.

 

(4) At other times matajis can write their questions on paper or ask by email. Or they can ask their questions through a male devotee either by phone or sending him personally. Gradually a mataji counsellor system can be developed with senior matajis guiding the new ones. The senior mataji counsellor can take furthur guidance from a senior grhastha counsellor.

 

(5) After lectures women cannot come near but can offer obeisances from far.

 

(6) Exceptions: unavoidable circumstances like market, phone operator or house when mataji picks up, on book distribution, talking to mother (which Srila Prabhupada & Lord Caitanya allowed see attched file) etc. Even in these cases, it should be as minimal as possible.

 

(7) For preaching programs matajis can cook prasadam for everyone but prasadam service to sannyasis & prabhujis will be done by prabhujis only.

 

(8) If married matajis have personal family problems than they should try to solve the problem on their own (preferred) or take the help of a senior grhastha devotee counsellor whom they trust. No grhastha family problems should be addressed to sannyasis even on paper. In exceptional cases the husband or the male devotee counsellor can ask guidance directly from the sannyasi.

 

(9) For asking philosophical questions of any kind outside of the lecture programs, matajis can directly write to the sannyasi or send any male person for clarification or he can make a phone-call also, if they don't get a satisfactory answer from their counsellor.

 

(10) Sannyasi should never feel discouraged of loosing some matajis in the preaching if the matajis are not able to appreciate these views. According to Prabhupada, his Guru Maharaj as a sannyasi never liked preaching to matajis in the first place.

 

I humble propose that instead of restricting sannyasa by age, the senior sannyasis in a preaching society discuss these instructions of Prabhupada, the acaryas & Lord Caitanya and frame a strict standard for the sannyasis in that society regarding the dealings with the opposite sex which is not based simply on imitation of Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas. This will ensure a great decrease in the number of casualities and a steady increase in the preaching. This is my humble opinion and I don't want to push it on anybody. If anyone likes it, they can take it up.

 

I have studied these principles and want to implement it for the benefit of my own devotional service and I leave it up to the assembled Vaisnavas to take whatever is worth from the above quotes.

 

Your aspiring servant, BR Sadhu Swami

 

Q & A:

 

> We see that we still have women serving sanyasis as personal secretaries and cooks.What is your opinion about them?

 

It's simply maya. Not only the guru ends up being severely effected (in almost all cases) but I have also seen in many cases the brahmacari servant of the guru gets entrapped and enchanted due to repeated contact with the lady secretaries and cooks. It is the primary duty of the guru to protect his personal brahmacari servant (a sannyasi is supposed to have a brahmacari servant) and that is one reason why he should reject the idea of having lady secretary or cooks. Like for eg Lord Caitanya considered His prime duty to protect Kala Krsnadasa, His personal servant and that is why He personally rushed to the place of the violent Bhattaharies to rescue him.

 

> If you ask a sanyasi this question he will refute it by saying 'Well Srila Prabhupada was taking prasad cooked by women, he many times glorified them also.'

 

A sannyasi keeping lady cooks is what Prabhupada himself did not like. How can they justify this?

 

TKG's Diary Feb 22 - April 9:

 

Nava-yogendra Maharaja offered his services as cook, and Srila Prabhupada proclaimed, "Yes, from now on no more women will cook for me; you will do all of my cooking."

 

And a sannyasi keeping a lady secretary is strictly against Srila Prabhupada's instructions:

 

From Servant of the Servant, Part One, Chp Three:

 

While the cooking proceeded, Prabhupada again returned to speaking with me.

 

"It is better that I have a male secretary. Govinda dasi should join her husband in helping to preach in Hawaii. People may criticize me, saying that I am too closely connected with a woman. Of course, I do not find any difficulty personally, nor any complaint with her service. But we must consider the public's opinion." Prabhupada explained that a sannyasi's character must be beyond fault and cited the popular example of "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." Prabhupada described how Lord Caitanya had always acted in an exemplary manner and was the ideal sannyasi. Then, speaking in a hushed tone so that what he said would not be overheard by Govinda dasi, Prabhupada handed me a letter which he wanted me to mail. It was addressed to his disciple Purusottama in New York. Prabhupada explained that he was calling Purusottama to Los Angeles to replace Govinda dasi. It was better that I mailed the letter, because he doubted whether she would do so. After Purusottama came, he would gradually induce her to go to Hawaii.

 

Secondly as I have pointed out in my original message that we cannot imitate what Srila Prabhupada has done regards to preaching because he was specifically empowered by Lord Caitanya.

 

ORDINARY PERSONS SHOULD NOT IMITATE THE ACTIVITIES OF NARADA MUNI, HARIDASA THAKURA & ACARYAS (LIKE SRILA PRABHUPADA) ESPECIALLY EMPOWERED TO BROADCAST THE GLORIES OF THE LORD. ORDINARY PERSONS MUST STRICTLY OBSERVE THE RULES & REGULATIONS BY STAYING ALOOF FROM THE ASSOCIATION OF WOMEN.

 

SB 7.7.14 purp:

 

One should not remain in a secluded place with a woman, even one's mother, sister, or daughter. Nonetheless, although one is strictly prohibited from staying with a woman in a secluded place, Narada Muni gave shelter to Prahlada Maharaja's young mother, who rendered service to him with great devotion and faith. Does this mean that Narada Muni transgressed the Vedic injunctions? Certainly he did not. Such injunctions are intended for mundane creatures, but Narada Muni is transcendental to mundane categories. Narada Muni is a great saint and is transcendentally situated. Therefore, although he was a young man, he could give shelter to a young woman and accept her service. Haridasa Thakura also spoke with a young woman, a prostitute, in the dead of night, but the woman could not deviate his mind. Instead, she became a Vaisnavi, a pure devotee, by the benediction of Haridasa Thakura.

 

Ordinary persons, however, should not imitate such highly elevated devotees.

 

Ordinary persons must strictly observe the rules and regulations by staying aloof from the association of women. No one should imitate Narada Muni or Haridasa Thakura. It is said, vaisnavera kriya-mudra vijne na bujhaya. Even if a man is very advanced in learning, he cannot understand the behavior of a Vaisnava. Anyone can take shelter of a pure Vaisnava, without fear.

 

Therefore in the previous verse it has been distinctly said, devarser antike sakuto-bhaya: Kayadhu, the mother of Prahlada Maharaja, stayed under the protection of Narada Muni without fear from any direction. Similarly, Narada Muni, in his transcendental position, stayed with the young woman without fear of deviation. Narada Muni, Haridasa Thakura and similar acaryas especially empowered to broadcast the glories of the Lord cannot be brought down to the material platform. Therefore one is strictly forbidden to think that the acarya is an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matih).

 

In Thakura Bhaktivinoda's purport quoted in the original message, it is clear that one cannot transgress the strict sannyasa rules unless one has reached the bhava platform. So no one can imitate Prabhupada.

 

And the final word is that according to the 10th Canto, we should not do what great personalities have done but follow their instructions and can follow in the footsteps of those activities done by them which are confirmed by their instructions. Those activities which are special and extraordinary are not confirmed by their explicit instructions should never be imitated.

 

> Secondly what about initiation? Until a sanyasi speak to or know the candidate well how can he give initiation?

 

That has to be handled by the counsellor system like in the case of Srila Prabhupada as well as Srila Sarasvati Thakura. The new matajis perform spiritual practices under the guidance of a senior mataji who in turn can report to a senior grhastha counsellor, who may recommend the concerned mataji for initiation to the guru. If the sannyasi guru can't make a system like this (which is quite easy to make even with a few disciples around), it does not justify in any way his talking to his aspiring lady disciples.

 

It is his shortcoming that he cannot make such a system. He should go slow on accepting lady disciples till he has such a system in place.

 

About mataji disciples' philosophical queries, I have suggested that guru can answer them in the q & a session at the end of any public lecture or forum or darshan. Or they can also be answered by email or thro letter. his is concession but imho it can be made for preaching because it does'nt involve directly seeing a matajis' face or hearing her voice. Or they can also be asked thro a male devotee who can communicate the answer to the mataji. Once sannyasis start talking to matajis then it develops such an unhealthy atmosphere for everyone around because of the contamination of the prakrta-sahajiya mentality.

 

I will end with a very strong quote by TB in his commentary on Cc Antya 2.120:

 

Amrta-pravaha-bhasya (Thakura Bhaktivinoda): Only such a sadhaka in whose heart bhava has arisen and thus real renunciation has taken birth, after seriously and sincerely practicing sadhana-bhakti for a prolonged period of time, is actually eligible for the renounced order of life. One who accepts the saffron garments of a sannyasi before achieving such a platform is known as a markata-vairagi. When such unqualified souls due to various reasons accept the renounced order of life, they are pushed by the urges of their senses and thus they go and talk with prakrti or women. Such people even though in the renounced order of life, they are called dharma-dhvajis (dangerous pretenders) and dharma-kalankas (black spots on pure religion) and THEIR ASSOCIATION SHOULD BE COMPUSORILY AVOIDED.

 

Your aspiring servant, BR Sadhu Swami

Sadhu.Swami@pamho.net

Preeminent Siksha-guru: His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Diksha-guru : Param Pujyapada Bhaktisastri Sri Parampada Prabhu

Sannyasa-guru : Param Pujyapada Sri Bhakti Kumud Santa Maharaja

[Guest guest]

The normal role of women in Hindu society is one of subserviance. While one can argue the necessity that there must be someone to cook and clean, raise the kids, etc. within the context of an agrarian society, to relegate an entire sex to that specific role would be unreasonable, unless some other, rather than the rediculous claim of "less inteligence" was cited as cause for that sex's selection for that social role.

The universalization of surrender to God as the primary requirement for spiritual progess, in itself seems to eliminate any need for gender bias. Srila Pravhupada seemed to have acted from such a consideration himself in the implementation of his society. Likewise the need for anyone to become a sannyasa seems an unneeded complication, in view of the information that the process of surrender is adequate to attain one to love of God. Indeed, I have heard that sanyassa isn't even recommended in this age, or that it isn't even allowed.

[Gauracandra]

The following comes from the “Memories” series detailing various disciples stories about Srila Prabhupada. This one comes from Revatinandan Prabhu:

 

 

In the spring of 1975, Gurudas took sannyas at the Stewart Street temple in Berkeley. Prabhupada gave a very nice lecture that day. He spoke just as highly, if not more highly, of Yamuna, Gurudas’s former wife, than he did of Gurudas. At one point he said “His wife is practically a sannyasini.” When the program was over and Prabhupada was walking back to his room, I asked him if it was conceivable that women in our movement might formally take sannyas. Prabhupada looked at me, made a very disgusted expression and said, “Never!” It was an emphatic answer. From his point of view, that would never be possible.

 

 

[leyh]

Actually real sannyasa is a state of mind. A woman might be more renounced then a so-called sannyasi who carries the danda with material desires inside his heart.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

the point of sanyassa for the Chaitanya devotee is

only for the purpose of gaining respectability

from those who value such things as the

barometer of authenticity.

 

Would woman add or subtract to that ?

[Guest guest]

Given the society and times in which we live I have to answer Shiva's question with a resounding yes!!

 

Women are in leadership roles in every sphere of life. The way in which the general person views gender roles has evolved considerably over time and there is no reason that the way in which women are viewed within Gaudiya Vaishnava society should not evolve as well.

 

In Tripurari Maharaja's answer on the Sanga he expressed his view that sannyasa should be given according to a number of considerations which include the person's scriptural knowledge, spiritual standing or advancement in practice as well as the social environment. He also expressed his view that there are women devotees who certainly have the qualifications of advanced scriptural knowledge and spiritual advancement and as such they qualify.

 

I think that society in general would welcome such a change, but I am not sure that the general GV society would. There is a very prevalent male dominant ideal within Iskcon and GM, much more so than in society in general and it is that psychological barrier that may make it impractical to institute such a change at this time even though it is warranted in consideration of the times in which we live.

 

Your servant,

Audarya lila dasa

[Guest guest]

Make that an 'add' answer to Shiva's question

[livingentity]

"Actually real sannyasa is a state of mind. A woman might be more renounced then a so-called sannyasi who carries the danda with material desires inside his heart."

 

There have been a number examples to illustrate this point through the years.

[stonehearted]

Tripurari Maharaja explained his rationale rather clearly, I thought. Each of us will have to decide individually what we think and how we feel about it. He didn't say he has a woman sannyasi lined up and ready to go, so I think we can refrain from getting too worked up about it now. And since he works outside ISKCON, no devotees from that institution need to worry.

 

Swami Tripurari's vision is progressive, inclusive, and essence-seeking. If we go beyond dogma and examine carefully the revolutionary (and evolutionary) nature of themovement coming from Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Thakur Bhaktvinoda, and Siddhanta Sarasvati, we may want to think twice before rejecting progresive ideas out of hand. Until Sarasvati Thakur, there was no tradition of tridandi sannyas among Gaudiya vaishnavas, generally speaking. He revived this for the purpose of reestablishing daivi-varnashrama dharma and preaching Mahaprabhu's message widely and systematically. He only gave sannyas to men from brahmana families. His disciples broadened that. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, my spiritual master, broadened things further.

 

When Srila Prabhupada returned to India with his disciples early on, he invited his godbrothers to meet them. Not yet able to appreciate what he had accomplished, his godbrothers declined to eat what Prabhupada's men cooked. (That later changed.) They were also concerned that he had women cooking for him. When one godbrother confronted him with the problem of Palika's being his cook, he called her in and told his godbrother, "Do yousee this girl? She would cut her throat for me if I asked her. And I would do the same for her!"

 

As was pointed out before, sannyas is actually a state of the heart, not the outward dress. One whose work, words, and mind are fully surrendered is a tridandi sannyasi, regardless of outward appearance.

[Guest guest]

As has been rightly pointed out, sannyasa is renunciation and can be done by anyone. However, for preaching purposes, saffron robes and the danda are very impressive to the outward society. Women should be allowed to wear saffron and carry a danda. But I see no need to break up loving Vaisnava marriages. I think an ideal situation would be for husbands and wives to take on co-sannyasa. They would both wear saffron and carry the tridanda but would work with one another to preach. In some traditions there is even sannyasa given to little boys. So we could in fact institute sannyasa given to little boys and girls. This would create an effective group. A unified sannayasa family that would preach throughout the world. Let us keep our families united and loving.

[theist]

Sannyasins remaing married but taking on all the symbols of the sannyasa ashram?

 

Yeah and I'm a King because i placed a crown on my head. Sorry brother that bird don't fly.

[Guest guest]

You don’t understand. The external symbols are for the public. If it helps preaching then we should do it. After all, in the age of Kali Yuga one should not accept sannyasa. Therefore we don’t accept sannyasa. Only sannyasa to appeal to outsiders. The danda and saffron are impressive symbols. Secondly, the family is the most important. We need preachers and we need family. So my proposal creates a synthesis to assist both. If a husband and wife love one another, why should they break up a loving Vaisnava marriage? There is no need to. Doesn’t a wife need a loving husband? Don’t these children need fathers too? So don’t break up families. We have seen enough of this breaking up families. Instead, create co-sannyasa and you resolve the problem. You appeal to outsiders and maintain stability in healthy relationships. The wife helps the husband and the husband helps the wife.

[paul108]

Although it's only remotely related to this topic, I feel like mentioning that our local public library has as Bhagavad-gita translated and commentary by Swami Tripurari. When I saw it, I lost some respect for him. There is no mangalacaranam to speak of, and he hardly even mentions Srila Prabhupada, except to say that he wanted his disciples to write books. It seemed to me that Srila Prabhupada probably meant to write other books that he hadn't just translated and written commentary on! I mean, who would want their edition of Bhagavad-gita sitting on the shelf next to Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Did Swami Tripurari think his edition would be an improvement? Flipping through it, I couldn't find any mention of the importance of chanting Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare, which, at least in my opinion, is the most important part of Srila Prabhupada's commentary. Krishna said surrender, and Lord Caitanya taught how: Chant Hare Krishna.

[livingentity]

Sorry but that just does not make sense. Either you are or you aren't.

[stonehearted]

I can name a couple of things that are actually impressive to the public. One is actual renunciation. People in general were really impressed with Mother Teresa because of the simplicity of her life and her selfless behavior. (I'm just using her as an example, so let's not get sidetracked again by detractors.) They were also impressed with Srila Prabhupada's detachment. Real renunciation, genuine detachment is very attractive.

 

Another thing that really impresses people is strong, long-lasting marriages. When even devotees (or especially devotees) hear that my wife and I have been married for 30 years, they're amazed. The other day someone told Srila Narayana Maharajs that Satyaki and I had been married for 30 years, and he smiled broadly and said, "Oh, that I like very much!" Steady marriages and strong families are very powerful.

 

But for long-time married couples to dress up like sannyasis will impress only fools. We don't want to gather a lot of foolish followers. We want the real thing, and we'll attract it only by being real.

 

There's no need to break up happy families, as our anonymous guest suggests. But those who adopt the dress of the monastic orders should actually be monks. The happy householders should set examples of ideal family life. If they're detached from sense gratification but don't feel the need for the kind of fearless independence demanded of sannyasis, they may live together as vanaprasthas or grihastha-brahmacharis, as explained by Srila Prabhupada on a couple of occasions.

[livingentity]

In order to be sannyasa you have to give everything, every part of yourself to the service of the Lord. You give up all attachments and connections to family etc. How can you do that if you are involved with household chores and problems? Raising children? How can you do that if you are lying in bed with your wife/husband? How can you do that if you have to go to work each day for the upkeep? That is foolish and can not be done. It is not just a physical renunciation but also mental - you must be able to keep your mind and body clean and uncluttered by mundane thoughts and deeds. It is not just a matter of changing color of cloth.

[Guest guest]

November 10, 1987 Discussion with Bhaktipada (Kirtananda) on Women Sannyasinis

 

Q. Shrila Bhaktipada, many people are disturbed that you are giving sannyasa

to women...are you serious about that?

 

SB. Completely serious. If women can't renounce, then what makes you think

the men can?

 

Q. Well, it hasn't been done before in our tradition.

 

SB. We are not interested in tradition. It is not contrary to religious

principles to give sannyasa to a woman. Show me where in the scriptures that

it says that a woman cannot renounce.

 

Q. You are guru, but can you back up with sadhu and shastra?

 

SB. Get the Bhagavad-gita from my shelf and look in Chapter 9, verse 32.

Read it to me.

 

Q. "O son of Pritha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower

birth--women, vaishyas, as well as sudras can approach the supreme

destination."

 

SB. And how do you approach the supreme destination without becoming

renounced? There you have confirmation of shastra. And then there was

Mirabhai. She approached Rupa Goswami for darshan and he refused to see her

because he was a man in the renounced order. She defeated him saying, "I

thought that Krishna was the only man in Vrindavana." Then Rupa Goswami

accepted her as a sannyasini. We must become freed from this bodily

conception. There are no men and women, these are material designations.

 

Q. Some devotees think you are doing this just to encourage the women

devotees, that you don't really believe that they can renounce.

 

SB. That is offensive! There are already women here who are more advanced in

their renunciation than many of the men! Shrila Prabhupada said that it is

offensive to try to understand the mind of the acharya.

 

Q. So, you are going to break tradition and really do this?

 

SB. Traditionally, the message of the Vedas was never to leave Bharata-varsha.

Shrila Prabhupada brought it here. Traditionally, women weren't to take

brahminical initiation, but Prabhupada allowed it. Whatever is necessary for

the preaching.

 

Q. One devotee has said that all women in the Vedas became advanced because of

their surrender to their husbands. How will the women become renounced without

this guidance?

 

SB. If this process can't bring a woman to the pure platform, then it doesn't

work. If it can work for a man, then it will work for a woman. When you

become free from the bodily conception of life, you are not male or female.

 

Q. This is revolutionary.

 

SB. Shrila Prabhupada said I was first in everything.

 

Q. If these sannyasinis attract followers, will they become guru and initiate

disciples?

 

SB. Why not? If one is able to control the urges of the tongue, belly and

genitals, they are eligible to make disciples all over the world. That is

scriptural.

 

Q. Women on the Vyasasana?

 

SB. Where do you expect the guru to sit?

 

Q. But women giving initiation to men? Men offering dandavats to women?

Women carrying dandas?

 

SB. We must give up the man/woman consciousness and this program will give

everyone the opportunity to do just that. When you offer dandavats, it is not

to the material body, but to the renunciation of that person within the body.

That person is neither male nor female, but spirit soul.

 

Q. So women will carry dandas, and they will be given the same respect as the

male sannyasis?

 

SB. Absolutely! Prabhupada said that if you don't offer obeisances when you

see a sannyasi, then you must fast all day. There are no male sannyasis, and

there will be no female sannyasis. We are spirit souls--that is our

philosophy. Therefore, it is not a question of whether a woman can take

sannyasa, but it is obvious that she must take sannyasa, and become renounced

to attain the supreme goal.

 

 

[theist]

don't you think Srila Prabhupada knew that women aren't the material body?

 

By the way, as an aside, is Kirtanananda still in prision?

 

I wouldn't take his shiksa to the bank if I were you.

 

All these so-called 'reformers' are after is some distiction in IMO. "Oh he's so liberal","he sees everyone as spiritsoul, he's so advanced".

 

Cheap. While the acarya's away the mice will play.

[Guest guest]

 

 

who takes sanyasa seriously ?

 

Probably only Indian people, and maybe a few westerners

who are involved in some form of Yoga.

 

So the question is, if they see a female sanyassi

what will they think ?

 

A while ago Rajneesh was initiating female sanyassins,

this was soundly criticized by Indian society.

this is why Srila Prabhupada was against intiating

women into sanyassa.

 

has the situation changed ?

Would females be accepted or would they be seen as a deviation from vedic tradition and criticized as a

western concoction ?

[Guest guest]

 

when Kirtanananda says that "it is obvious that she

must take sanyasa,and become renounced to attain

the supreme goal"

 

where is he getting that from ?

 

what sampradaya does he follow ?

 

where is that ever mentioned by any Guru following

in the footsteps of Sri Chaitanya ?

 

that is clearly not an authorized statement, and has no credibility what so ever.

 

To preach that someone "must" become a sanyasa,either

in name or lifestyle in order to "attain" the "supreme

goal" is false and not supported by Vaisnava siddhanta.

 

Engaging in bhakti yoga under the guidance of

a bona fide spiritual master is all that is necessary,

nothing else.

 

The renounced order is not necessary or even desirable,

in fact it is best left to the proper place in the vedic tradition, as a place for old men.

 

Teaching that sanyasa is necessary for anyone

to "attain" the goal of life wrong.

 

[Vaishnava_das108]

This doesn't explain Tripurari Swami's disobedience to his guru-varga.

 

Like it or not, we may try to couch it in nice terms, and engage in protracted discussions about the significance of sannyasa and the qualification of the candidates, but there is no denying that the last great Acharya, Srila Prabhupada, has expressly forbidden the acceptance of the sannyasa order by women. Thanks to a fellow member, the information is given in the "Memories" video series that according to Srila Prabhupada, this would "never" happen in our sampradaya.

 

There is not much consensus on the question if Tripurari Swami is a realised soul or not, but it is essential to note that using the example of modifying the principles to suit the time, place and circumstances is invalid.

 

There is a huge gulf of difference between modifying a standard, and disobeying it. It looks like Tripurari Swami has chosen to disobey it. What more can be said?

[Vaishnava_das108]

Dear Paul,

 

in fact you are right.

 

Tripurari Swami has been much criticised for his edition of Bhagavad-gita. It is true that as you say, there is no mangalacaranam or dedication to Srila Prabhupada, but I was definitely surprised to hear you say that there seems to be no much emphasis on chanting of the Hare-Krsna mantra.

 

I have not had the time to seriously study Tripurari Swami's teachings, but I have reason to believe that most of his ideas regarding the mission of Sri Caitanya have been soundly criticised. For example, he thinks that counting our rounds is a manifestation of maya, harinama processions are not an effective preaching tool, and that the Srimad Bhagavatam may be allegorical and symbolic. This issue about female sannyasa just seems to be the latest one.

[stonehearted]

Apparently nothing. You seem to have everything figured out.

 

I'm not sure how trustworthy Revatinandan's (now calls himself Shambhu and lives here on the Big Island) memories are. I know he offered a lot of service for many years, but I'm a little wary of absulute pronouncements of Srila Prabhupada's ultimate desire from devotees who themselves have deviated for many years.

 

You say,"It is essential to note that using the example of modifying the principles to suit the time, place and circumstances is invalid."

 

Do you assert that Srila Prabhupada is thelast person ever able to make any adjustments? Based on what? Those of us who have long been his disciples know he often exhorted us to use our intelligence to find ways to expand Mahaprabhu's movement.

 

 

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

Do you assert that Srila Prabhupada is thelast person ever able to make any adjustments? Based on what? Those of us who have long been his disciples know he often exhorted us to use our intelligence to find ways to expand Mahaprabhu's movement.

 

 

Dear Stonehearted,

 

Please allow me to explain. What I meant to say was that Srila Prabhupada is the last recognised sampradaya-acharya for ISKCON. It is also possible that new bonafide Acharyas shall be coming in Srila Prabhupada's line, and they will surely be qualified to make any new adjustments for future times. However, I do not think that such an adjustment would be to allow sannyasa for women.

 

It is not just Revatinandan's supposed evidence that states this. I have also read a similar thing in Hari Sauri's memoirs. I expect that you know that Hari Sauri das was Srila Prabhupada's personal servant for the last two years or so of the latter's manifest presence. I believe in the first installment of his diary, he relates the story that Srila Prabhupada received a letter from a female disciple asking for sannyasa, to which Srila Prabhupada dictated a reply. According to my memory, the reply was something along the lines of the argument that women and men basically have different functions on the material platform while they are totally equal on the spiritual platform, being the soul. But materially, women could not be given sannyasa on account of the differences.

 

I will try to find this quote if you like.

 

But anyway, as I stated earlier, there is a huge gulf of difference between adjusting a principle and disobeying it. My puny mind cannot conceive of a way in which we may compromise this "no female sannyasa" principle and somehow allow female sannyasis to preach Mahaprabhu's mission.