European Aryan invasion theory- Genetic proof?

[Richard]

Written in blood

 

New Scientist vol 170 issue 2291 - 19 May 2001, page 17

 

The origins of India's rigid caste system are confirmed by DNA tests

 

UPPER-CASTE Indians are genetically more like Europeans, while members of India's lower castes are more like other Asians, says an international team of researchers.

 

"It seems to confirm much of the research that basically has drawn from linguistic analysis and theories about the movements of people into South Asia," says Robert Hardgrave of the University of Texas, Austin, who has written extensively on India and its caste system. Based on such evidence, most historians believe that waves of Indo-European-speaking people from eastern Europe and the Caucasus set up the caste system as they moved into the Indian subcontinent about 5000 years ago.

 

"When the Aryans came in, they brought with them a social hierarchy," says Hardgrave. "We have some historical and archaeological evidence which suggests that as the Aryans came in, they intermarried with indigenous people and also absorbed many of them into their system of ranking."

 

Some people dismiss this theory as a myth, claiming it "devalues" India's history. Now, however, genetic studies have produced strong evidence supporting the theory. A team led by Michael Bamshad of the University of Utah in Salt Lake City compared the DNA of 265 Indian men from different castes with DNA from nearly 750 African, European, Asian and other Indian men.

 

First, they analysed mitochondrial DNA, which people only inherit from their mothers. When the researchers looked at specific sets of genes that tend to be inherited as a unit, they found about 20 to 30 per cent of the Indian sets resembled those in Europeans. The percentage was highest in upper caste males. Overall, though, each caste resembled other Asians most.

 

Next, the team studied genetic variations in the Y chromosome, which is inherited from the father. "We saw a strikingly different pattern," says Bamshad. In this case, most castes resembled Europeans more closely than Asians. "The upper castes were more similar to Europeans, the middle castes were genetically equidistant from Europeans and Asians, and the lower castes were more similar to Asians," he says.

 

The researchers got similar results when they examined 40 sets of genes on other chromosomes. The findings support the theory that the Indo-European immigrants appointed themselves to the higher castes, Bamshad says. The Y chromosome evidence also supports the idea that the original immigrants were mostly male.

 

The caste system was based on occupation and socioeconomic status. The upper castes were the Brahmans (priests), the Kshatriyas (warriors) and the Vaisyas (traders). The Sudras, who were the farmers and artisans, comprised the lower caste. Later, a fifth caste—"the untouchables"—was established for those who did menial tasks.

 

In modern India, the caste system is breaking down in some parts of society but still going strong in others, as a look at matrimonial ads in Indian newspapers reveals. While some expressly say that "caste is no bar", others ask for brides or bridegrooms not just of the same caste, but of the precise sub-caste.

 

 

Anil Ananthaswamy

 

 

[Guest guest]

I haven't studied this subject in detail. But in my opinion it is a huge misintepretation or even possibly an outright lie.

[Guest guest]

genetic basis of race itself is highly questionable.

 

Physical features like skin colour and hair type are unreliable guides to a person's genetic ancestry, according to a major study that further undermines the popular concept of 'race'.

 

Brazilian researchers at the Federal University of Minas Gerais in Rio Grande do Sul and colleagues at Portugal's University of Porto based their results on DNA tests conducted on individuals in two groups of people.

 

The research was an attempt to establish if, by studying particular physical characteristics normally associated with 'race', if it was possible to determine the genetic background of a person. The results appear in today's issue of the journal, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

 

Dr Sergio Pena and colleagues used a set of genetic markers to test how closely physical 'race-determining' traits correlated with ancestry in Brazil. They chose Brazil as their target population because the country has a long history of inter-ethnic mixing between European, African and Native American lineages.

 

The group isolated three samples of populations considered representative of the major founding groups of Brazil: Portugal, Africa and Native Americans.

 

"We wanted to ascertain to what degree the colour of a Brazilian individual was predictive of the degree of genomic African ancestry," Pena wrote.

 

The first test group consisted of 173 people living in a rural community who were classified as 'white', 'black' or 'intermediate' based on arm skin pigmentation, hair colour and nose and lip shape. The second consisted of 200 men living in major metropolitan areas of Brazil who classed themselves as 'white', or Caucasian.

 

The researchers used a genetic marker that distinguishes between people from Portugal and those from Africa. The number of times the African marker appeared was reflected in an African Ancestry Index (AAI) for each person. These AAI values can reliably distinguish between Europeans and Africans.

 

People who looked 'black' might have expected to score a higher AAI. But in the populations tested, there was little difference in AAI values between groups - whether they were initially classed as black, white or intermediate.

 

The self-nominated 'white' urban men tested in the second group also showed AAI values halfway between Europeans and Africans.

 

"It is interesting to note that the group of individuals classified as blacks had a very high proportion of non-African ancestry (48 per cent)," the authors said. "The intermediate group, with 45 per cent African ancestry, was closer to the black group than to the white one."

 

The concept of race - classifying humans into different groups based on physical characteristics that indicate a lineage or 'breed' - has been around for centuries, but has no basis in science, the scientists said. The new study further supports this view, and for the first time quantifies it.

 

Dr Robert Attenborough of the School of Archaeology and Anthropology at Canberra's Australian National University - who has studied the historical and genetic basis behind race - agreed.

 

It was an old and now discredited concept in science that was based on flawed evidence and personal prejudice, he said. "Race is many things to many people, and amongst other things it is a former scientific concept, that on the whole is not found to be much use in science these days," he told ABC Science Online.

 

Despite this, the way people look strongly affects how others respond to them and what 'race' they are considered part of, the Brazilian and Portuguese scientists said. Their study shows that, in Brazil at least, looks are a highly inaccurate way to determine a person's genetic ancestry.

 

Attenborough said that the study differs from previous work because - rather than looking at a whole population - it analyses the data at the level of individual people. It is much easier to find patterns in genetic traits when looking at whole populations.

 

"There are differences between groups of people, but it is much harder to find clear cut distinctions," said Attenborough. "Nobody disputes that - biologically - individual human beings differ, and if you put together groups with a similar origin, then there will be average differences between groups with one origin and groups with another origin."

 

 

 

[Gauracandra]

I’ve heard of this research that Brahmins tend to be more similar to Europeans. But from what I’ve heard that is mostly in North India which did experience a lot of infiltration by the British and Muslims. It is my understanding that South India was less affected, and in fact many Brahmins in South India are very, very dark. So I’m not sure what to make of that study if anything. It’s a bit like building backwards (which I suppose you have to do given that we don’t have a time machine). But simply saying Brahmins are similar in features to Europeans means Aryans invaded India is not real convincing to me at least. For instance, people might argue that Indians left India and influenced Europe (reverse it). There is some evidence for this from the transfers of mathematics from India, to trade connections between Greece and India etc… A statement of fact doesn’t prove the direction things moved. I suppose the underlying theory would be that dark doesn’t become white (recessive vs. dominant genes), but that whiteness becomes darkened (but then a secularist would have to explain how evolution from Africa to Europe created whiteness).

[Richard]

Sorry but i really dont agree with what you're saying. How can the genetic basis for race be highly questionable when it is in fact the only basis of race?

 

And in this article it takes brazil which has had high levels of inter-breeding so obviously racial boundaries and characteristics are likely to be blurred.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

So how does your genetic study prove that Aryans invaded India.

 

Do you have archaeological proof ? If yes, what ?

 

Do you have proof from literature ? If so, What ?

There has been migrations all the time.

 

Did the study you refer study Brahmins from South India ? South Indian Brahmins(including me) are black.

All your post tells is that Brahmins are more close to WEST ASIANS(Eurasians) than the so called proto-Asians.

 

It does not prove that Aryans invaded and drove the so-called local populations.

 

[Raguraman]

What is your motive Richard ? Are you trying to evangelize here ? or more probably trying to ABUSE Vedic practices.

 

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/articles_aryan_invasion_theory/35.htm

 

<http://www.atributetohinduism.com/images/TributeLogo.gif>

a r t i c l e s o n a r y a n i n v a s i o n

Caste and Science: Hot Air and Cold Fusion

N.S. Rajaram

http://www.organiser.org/10june2001/news5.htm

 

In an article titled "Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations", eighteen authors, mainly from Utah in the US and Vishakapatnam in India, led by Michael Bamshad of the Department of Pediatrics from the University of Utah make the claim that there were several waves of immigration into India, the last of which (from Europe) was responsible for the caste system. In their words:

 

"In the most recent of these waves (of immigration), Indo-European-speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent. They purportedly admixed with or displaced Dravidic-speaking populations. Subsequently, they may have established the Hindu caste system and placed themselves in castes of higher rank."

In his press statements, Bamshad has gone much further claiming: "We are able to demonstrate unequivocally that the upper castes are more similar to Europeans than lower castes..." This finding, they claim, is based on genetics.

 

To a scientifically informed person knowledgeable about the field, it is apparent even at first glance that it is the Aryan invasion theory all over again along with its associated Aryan-Dravidian conflicts. This is now presented as the product of 'genetics research', protected from scrutiny by opaque jargon-filled language. Genetics of course cannot tell if some people living thousands of years ago were Aryan speaking or 'Dravidic-speakers'. What Bamshad & Co are presenting is simply their presumption that they are trying to pass off as 'scientific findings' using some samples-all from near Vishakapatnam-and some numerical measures that they claim indicates the nearness of Indian population groups to the people of Europe. Their specific claim is that the upper caste Hindus are genetically closer to Europeans whereas the lower and middle castes are Asiatics.

 

All this of course is part of the Marxist claim- that 'class' became 'caste' in India, imposed by the Aryan invaders. And now all this is 'proved' by the magic of science! So at one stroke, this Utah pediatrician and his Dravidian colleagues, aided by samples from Vishakapatnam, have shown that both the Colonial-imposed Aryan invasion-part of the "White Man's Burden" but now adopted by Indian Marxists-and the Class-to-Caste transition propounded by Indian Marxists (and Dravidian politicians) are supported by genetics!

 

But the sheen was off the claim almost immediately after it was made. The same week, Bryan Sykes, a professor of genetics at Oxford University, made exactly the opposite claim: The British White population carries African and Asian genes. (The same must hold for other European populations.) But unlike the Utah researchers, he made no claims about their relationship to upper and lower class Britishers and their ancestry. So what does all this mean? It means that over tens of thousands of years, human populations have moved over large areas, and it is impossible to reduce it to simplistic models favoured by invasionists (successors to the "White Man's Burden") and Marxists. Further, it is misleading to use terms like "European" and "West Eurasian" to people so long ago, when they may not yet have moved into Europe or Eurasia from their original home in Africa-or even possibly India as Indian records indicate. (So Europeans could be carrying Indian traces rather than vice versa.)

 

There is also a fundamental scientific fallacy in the Utah study. Caste and language-like religion-is a man-made classification, not a law of nature. It is absurd to assign laws of nature to them, although Marxists believe that their classification is also a scientific law of history. Actually, Sir Julian Huxley warned against it long ago: "In 1848 the young German scholar Friedrich Max Muller (1823-1900) settled in Oxford. ...About 1853, he introduced into English usage the unlucky term Aryan as applied to a large group of languages. ...Moreover, Max Muller threw another apple of discord. He introduced a proposition that is demonstrably false. He spoke not only of a definite Aryan language and its descendants, but also of a corresponding 'Aryan race'. The idea was rapidly taken up both in Germany and in England."

 

Now, thanks to Bamshad & Co, this discredited notion as well as the Marxist Class-to-Caste Law has become scientific! If their theory (based on a sample from Vishakapatnam) has any validity at all, then Brahmins and Kshatriyas all over India must have some common physical features indicating their European ancestry. But they do not. For example, Brahmins and Kshatriyas in Kerala look like Keralites, those from Assam look like Assamese and those from Kashmir look like Kashmiris. This diversity goes to show that the Indian population is ancient, having lived in the same region long enough to have adopted to the environment by natural selection. What they have in common are certain cultural traits modified by regional factors like language, dress and food. These are acquired characteristics that have nothing to do with genetics.

These Utah researchers should perhaps next apply their methodology to Christians. They can then discover Catholic genes and Protestant genes. And among Protestants they may further find Anglican genes, Lutheran genes, Methodist genes, Baptist genes-all the way down to Mormon genes in the Mormon capital of Salt Lake City, Utah. Their methodology is the kind of numerology that can be used to prove anything anywhere. In plain English, their science is just so much hot air.

 

Academic prestige: image and reality

 

At the heart of this approach is a belief that academic prestige can overcome unsound scholarship. The goal of some of these academics, especially in the West, is not so much to make or present true scientific discoveries, but use the prestige that goes with their position to bluff and bulldoze Indians, in the hope no one will dare question them. This was also the thinking behind a recent propaganda campaign launched by a couple of 'Indologists' that tried to bluff their way with assertions like "no horse at Harappa, and any evidence to the contrary must be faked". To some extent, their faith in the servility of the Indian intelligentsia is justified: Indian journalists in particular rarely question any statement by a Western scholar. They believe that anything coming from the West must be true, and it is not for any Indian to question it.

 

As a former US academic I have the unhappy duty to shatter this illusion: the University of Utah and many others in the US are by no means distinguished for research excellence. Some may recall that more than ten years ago a couple of electro-chemists from the University of Utah (Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischman) claimed that they had created 'Cold Fusion' in a bottle. This amounted to the claim that they could create and control an unlimited energy source like a hydrogen bomb in a bottle, which would eventually solve the world's energy problems. It has not turned out that way. California is having daily blackouts. The work reported by Michael Bamshad and his colleagues-also from the University of Utah of Cold Fusion fame-falls in the same category.

 

The message of all this is that any claim should be subjected to critical scrutiny and not accepted simply because it happens to come from a person and/or institution that enjoys prestige. To take an example from the other extreme, the mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujam was working as a clerk in the Madras Port Trust when he made some of the greatest discoveries in modern mathematics. And Albert Einstein was himself a "clerk, third class" at the Swiss Patent Office in Bern when he discovered the Special Theory of Relativity. Yielding to prestige is the response of an illiterate.

Institutional problems

What is happening in academia for such extravagant claims that fail to stand scientific scrutiny to be becoming increasingly more frequent? One might almost say, the less substantial the research, the more extravagant the claim made for it. It is a complex issue, but may be summarized as deriving from polarization of academic life in the US. There is a severe shortage of technically qualified people. As a result, US is forced to import scientists and engineers in large numbers. Soon, teachers will be in short supply. This shows that American universities, especially research universities, are just not graduating enough scientists and engineers-or even science teachers. The feeling is widespread in America-among the public as well as in official circles-that universities are neglecting the educational needs of the country in the name of research. This has reduced the flow of money into universities, forcing them increasingly to seek funding from outside for their research: all they have to sell is their 'research', not their usefulness to society or meeting its educational needs. The demand for such funds is always greater than the supply. As a result, these researchers have also to be salesmen. This has resulted in an explosion of journals and other publications, recently supplemented by electronic journals (websites). To be heard in this cacophony of claims and demands, one is forced to make more and more extravagant claims. Quality becomes secondary and quantity becomes all-important. This is called "publish or perish", it is not entirely new, but now it has assumed unmanageable proportions. In such an environment, survival takes precedence over concern for quality or even truth. So almost anything is published as long as it adds to the researcher's bio-data. This is what is behind publications like the one authored by Bamshad & Co.

In the final analysis, what we are witnessing is a struggle for survival by a disenfranchised academic priesthood that will resort to any means to ensure its survival. And this includes hot air and Cold Fusion.

 

Writing as far back as 1939, Sir Julian Huxley, one of the great natural scientists of the century, observed: "In England and America the phrase 'Aryan race' has quite ceased to be used by writers with scientific knowledge, though it appears occasionally in political and propagandist literature. In Germany, the idea of the 'Aryan' race received no more scientific support than in England. Nevertheless, it found able and very persistent literary advocates who made it appear very flattering to local vanity. It therefore steadily spread, fostered by special conditions." (1887-1975), British biologist and author, who achieved renown both as a scientist and for his ability to make scientific concepts clear to the public through his writings. He served as the first director-general of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO). Huxley was knighted in 1958.

 

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/navaratnarajaram/ootadd.html

 

sushama@atributetohinduism.com

 

 

2001 - .

 

a r t i c l e s o n a r y a n i n v a s i o n

 

[Raguraman]

Starnge. There seems to be an effort by certain Christian groups to bring back AIT.

 

A paper on this issue. Access it through website PDF file.

 

http://www.iisc.ernet.in/currsci/nov102000/1182.pdf

 

In view of the fact that the ?/? haplotype is more frequent among most populations of northern India (Brahmins of Uttar Pradesh, Rajput, Muslim) who probably have had more admixture with individuals of Caucasoid background through multiple invasions of India in historical times than populations of the eastern or southern region, leads us to believe that these findings are more probably a result of multiple waves of admixture.

 

This inference is also bolstered by the fact that the fre-quency of haplogroup U, found predominantly among Caucasoids, is higher among populations of northern India (Muslim, Chamar, Brahmins of Uttar Pradesh) than among southern Indian populations (Figure 5). However, it is striking that the Austro-Asiatic speaking tribal popu-lations of India (Lodha, Santal) also harbour this haplo-group in fairly high frequencies. The overall frequency of haplogroup U is 14.28%.

-

 

If you read the paper and see page 1187, Table 4, it clearly shows that Iyers(Brahmins-Advaitists) have Haplotype U(found in Europeans) frequency of 23.3% and also IRULARS(a low caste in TAMIL NADU) with AFRICAN features also have HAPLOTYPE U frequency of 23.3%., while Iyengars(Brahmins and Vaishnavas of South India) have 10.0% frequency. This clearly shows that all Indians belong to almost the same RACE.

 

This is an attempt by some individuals(ofcourse some Christians, Bamshad and Co) to prove AIT and thereby prove that Varna system of VEDAS as barbaric. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[paul108]

Is empirical evidence proof of anything? In this case, though, it actually supports the Vedic presentation that the whole system gets screwed up in Kali-yuga, and asuras get a chance to be so-called brahmanas.

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

[Richard]

That is possibly the worst article on anything i have ever read. Talk about scatterbrained. The incoherency is mind boggling.

[Richard]

I have no ulterior motives. Im simply here to discuss and learn. Technicaly im christian but i dont practice and disregard the majority of christian teachings.

[Guest guest]

i trust that there is no ulterior motive for you richard. in any case, mundane truth is subject to test of logic. we can definitely discuss logically and based on facts inspite of our own motives - known and latent.

 

i refuted all the points through hard facts but unfortunately, the messages are lost.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I will recover the posts now.

 

[Guest guest]

Posted by Madhav

 

vedic scriptures indicate

that arya is one who lives vedic life.

so basically he accepts the authority of the vedas

and lives by it. the new word for such person is Hindu.

 

many people hae inaded and setteld in india.

but arya is one who lives a vedic life.

 

for real hindus race or skin color are transparent.

 

about caste: every society of the world has

castes: high, low, rich, poor, white black,... etc.

indians are not any exception.

unfortunately the hindus malpracticed varnasrama dhama for a long time. now it is changing.

 

[Guest guest]

Posted by Ram

 

As Gauracandra pointed out, Genetics cannot prove that there was an invasion in to India. Even a fourth rate scientist can understand this but for the missionary sponsored quacks with their ulterior motives. How naive of them to believe that they can convince even one sane man with such nonsense ? Let me go on to establish the basic flaws of the theory.

 

 

"It seems to confirm much of the research that basically has drawn from linguistic analysis and theories about the movements of people into South Asia," says Robert Hardgrave of the University of Texas, Austin, who has written extensively on India and its caste system.

 

 

"seems" is not a scientific term to use. the linguistic analysis can at best establish relationship between people. there is no theory that can show the exact dating or direction of movement. The AIT is dated around 1500 - 2000 b.c. The oldest Tamil literature Tolkappiyam has references to Varnashrama system. More importantly, the author uses the some grammatical constructs from Panini's work (which he calls Indiram). To deal with this problem, the indologists state that Tamil is no older than 2000 years old and the dravidians were neolithic people who used stone weapons. I would like to know if the proponents of this theory accept this late date for Tamil origin and accept it is dervied from vedic culture. As people associated with "The Church Of South India" and the missionaries of the west, I am sure they wont dare to make such unpolitical statements.

 

More to come...

[Guest guest]

Posted by Ram

 

 

"When the Aryans came in, they brought with them a social hierarchy," says Hardgrave. "We have some historical and archaeological evidence which suggests that as the Aryans came in, they intermarried with indigenous people and also absorbed many of them into their system of ranking."

 

 

It is interesting that in an article about gentic proof so much of the indology is discussed. It is apparent that the effort is not to derive any inference from the genetic experiments but give a "dhobi mark" of factuality to the fragile and baseless Aryan Invasion Theory using the reputation of genetics as a hard science.

 

The author should cite the so called evidence for invasion or intermarriage and proof for "conversion". But there is mention neither in Tamil or sanskrit literatures.

[Guest guest]

Posted by Ram

 

 

Some people dismiss this theory as a myth, claiming it "devalues" India's history. Now, however, genetic studies have produced strong evidence supporting the theory. A team led by Michael Bamshad of the University of Utah in Salt Lake City compared the DNA of 265 Indian men from different castes with DNA from nearly 750 African, European, Asian and other Indian men

 

 

To get accurate results, one must sample the whole population. But as it is costly and impossible to do, statistics provides methods to sample a small size of the population and extrapolate the results to get an estimate for the whole population. For a confidence level of 95%, a confidence interval of 5% and a population size of 300 million (number of males in India), the sample size should be atleast 384. I do not know the on what basis the team chose 265 as the sample size. This seems careless but even this difference can be tolerated on the grounds that it only affects the confidence interval marginally. What is important is the following data :

 

For a population of 10000 Indian men, the sample size should be as high as 370. For a population of 2 lakh 22 thousands, the sample should be 384 and above this it remains constant for crores of people. This is valid only if the sample is completely randomized. For those who are familiar with computing it is easy to know how difficult it is to create random distributions. The article does not talk about their randomization schemes. Also, it is not enough to only randomize your sample. But you should conduct the experiment on alternate randomly chosen sample groups and compare the results. The results should be within the same confidence interval. The paper does not talk about such scientific approach. This shows that it is not intended for intelligent people but for people who dropped out of high school - the target of christian missionaries in India.

 

[Guest guest]

Posted by Ram

 

 

First, they analysed mitochondrial DNA, which people only inherit from their mothers. When the researchers looked at specific sets of genes that tend to be inherited as a unit, they found about 20 to 30 per cent of the Indian sets resembled those in Europeans. The percentage was highest in upper caste males. Overall, though, each caste resembled other Asians most.

 

 

In any scientific study, one should be able to measure the quantity under study. If we are working on electronics, it is important to determine the binary state, one should upfront determine the voltage level per state and the allowed standard deviation. In this case, the "scientists" could not fixed it because they can never determine the impact of cross breeding on the genetic variation. The second problem is that the percentage of gene sets that are likely to be similar would be less than the confidence interval. As you can see, the article talks in general terms and not the percentage of resemblance.

 

Also, the "research" is flawed on the grounds that it does not compare the gene sets to those of the chinese to establish the difference.

 

[Guest guest]

Posted by Ram

 

 

Next, the team studied genetic variations in the Y chromosome, which is inherited from the father. "We saw a strikingly different pattern," says Bamshad. In this case, most castes resembled Europeans more closely than Asians. "The upper castes were more similar to Europeans, the middle castes were genetically equidistant from Europeans and Asians, and the lower castes were more similar to Asians," he says.

 

The researchers got similar results when they examined 40 sets of genes on other chromosomes. The findings support the theory that the Indo-European immigrants appointed themselves to the higher castes, Bamshad says.

 

 

On one hand, the article claims that the comparison of genesets in X & Y chromosomes is strikingly different in pattern. Then it says that the results are striking similar in the case of other gene sets which do not have gender basis. Similar to what, may I ask - the results of X set or the Y set ?

 

We are supposed to accept as truth the statement of some one who cannot even write a lucid and consistent article. One will write properly only if one is interested in truth. But the interest seems to be to further alienate the different peoples of India on the basis of unscientific experiments to promote one's missionary cause.

 

Let me close with the note to say that these experiments are unscientific and even if these results are true, they cannot establish invasion theory.

 

[Guest guest]

Posted by Ram

 

 

Sorry but i really dont agree with what you're saying. How can the genetic basis for race be highly questionable when it is in fact the only basis of race?

 

 

Could you please define what is race scientifically ? Taxonomically, please differentiate between class, species, sub-species and race. You are welcome to disagree with me but if you are not factual, you will be misled. That seems to be the case.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Posted by Ram

 

 

And in this article it takes brazil which has had high levels of inter-breeding so obviously racial boundaries and characteristics are likely to be blurred.

 

 

If you accept the racial basis of castes in India, then such an intermingling happened thousands of years ago. We have evidence that people of different colours married thousands of year ago. So the results should have blurred in India more because Brazil is an younger civilization. How come it did not blur in India ?

 

[Guest guest]

Posted by Raguraman

 

 

That is possibly the worst article on anything i have ever read. Talk about scatterbrained. The incoherency is mind boggling.

 

 

Mind explaining Richard.

 

The author is explaining the politics(behind the scene activities) that is driving such studies clearly. Perhaps you should learn HISTORY and PURPOSE of such studies and then probably YOUR CONFUSION(which you interpret as the author's incoherency) will be cleared.

 

On the contrary, your artticle seems to be so ridiculous that the motive of such studies and posting such ridiculous studies becomes clear, namely to ABUSE VEDAS THEREBY TO FACILITATE ADVENT OF CHRISTIANITY. There can be no other reason to post such ridiculous articles.

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

[Gauracandra]

I agree with Ram. Richard is just asking a question and posting some articles that come from one angle. The best approach is to respond with logical counter arguments. I myself don't know all the details of the Aryan Invasion Theory, but from my readings I have found reasons to doubt its authenticity.

[Guest guest]

well my understanding of a race is that its a sub-division of the homosapien species. In the same way breeds of dog are subdivisons of the larger canine species. If we assume all people are the same species and hence must have started from the same spot( so to speak) then seperation of people over along enough period of time led to seperate evolutionary paths evolving. And hence different races were formulated from what was previously one race/one species.