IMPROPER justification of MEAT-eating ...

[vsdprasad]

I've recently come across a site wherein a muslim (from Islam ResearchFoundation, India) tries to justify meat-eating. He invited a jain philosopher (from Indian vegetarian congress) to debate with him (in public) and it appeared he was somehow able to defeat that philosopher. I thought it'd be better if people here in this forum could challenge his points. The muslim was able to quote from all the scriptures (including hindu scriptures) thru his memory while justifying it and the poor philosopher based all his points purely from a health perspective as per jain philosophy. I thought may be some devotees here can refute his arguments which don't show even a whit of proper understading of the vedic philosophy. The debate was for about 5hrs (splited into five parts). You may watch all those before you post. Please do post your comments so that we may find PROPER refutations and stop those corrupting preachings. Already extensive damage has been done to the vast public by the dawahs (moslim preachings) on such topics by such people.

 

Note: In the middle of this web page: http://www.irf.net/irf/videogallery/index.htm (Debate: Is Non-Vegetarian Food Prohibited or Permitted) there is a recorded video of that public debate. The webpage is scripted such that un-registered people cannot watch it for more than 1 minute and then it'll prompt you to register with that site (which most people hate). I've found a trick wherein you can watch it fully without registering. Simply follow this procedure: Immediately after the page (with video) loads up, block the cookies by going to Tools->Internet options->Privacy-> & place the slider to its highest position. This will block further cookies (which are used by the scripts) from loading and prompting for registration. Thats it. Don't forget to place it to default setting after you finish watching, as it is needed for many websites including these forums.

PS: The campaign is not for hate against muslims but hate against meat eaters. Also hate against the sin, NOT the sinner. weeds are there in every community/religion.

[Guest guest]

Dont Brahmins eat meat?

[Guest guest]

buddhists eat meat too.

[Guest guest]

It applies to all non vegetarians.. not specific to muslims.

Do you kill your own mother-Cow?

Remember people don't become brahmanas based on their births but it is by their character. So you cannot generalise that all brahmanas eat meat.

 

and yes, some brahmanas of vedic age did eat meat but not to satisfy their tastes but for a different purpose. You might not be aware of 'Ashwamedha yajna':

There are mention of various sacrifices that involve the consumption of animal flesh by the brahmana priests and the king. The aswa-medha yajna is one example, but the same scriptures which describe this yajna also say it is forbidden to be performed in Kali yuga.

 

In Vedic yajnas the animal was not 'killed', but was elevated to a higher body. This was done to prove the efficacy of the brahmanas and the mantras they were chanting. The king was sacrificing huge quantities of gold and other valuables into the fire, and he needed some guarantee that it was actually being delivered to the gods, and not just being burnt up. For this purpose, the brahmana priests would physically demonstrate the efficacy of their mantras by transforming the animal into a gandharva. A horse would enter the fire, and a Gandharva (a heavenly human species) would emerge form the fire. The soul of the horse would be given a higher birth, and it was seen directly by the king. There still remained the karma of the horse to be accounted for. That horse was destined to traverse through many lives before he attained the body of the andharva, so that karma needed to be ballanced. All of those karmic reactions, existing between the horse body and the gandharva body, would remain in the flesh of the horses dead body. It was the duty of the king and the brahmanas to eat that flesh, and there by accept all of the karmic reactions within it. It is described that after eating this flesh, the brahmanas would lose their tejas and no longer be able to perform sacrifice. They would have to perform severe tapasya (austerities) in order to regain their tejas and shakti. The king would likewise have to give his entire wealth away in charity as a means to regain his tejas. Thus the king and brahmanas eating of flesh in the sacrifice was not an enjoyment, but a sacrifice they had to accept.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Also watch Dr. Zakir Naik's lecture on the Concept of God.

[Guest guest]

http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

 

HINDUISM IS NOT THE OLDEST AND BEST RELIGION

 

Question

 

Hinduism is the oldest of all the religions and thus the, most pure, authentic and best of all the religions of the world.

 

Answer:

 

 

Islam is the oldest religion

Hinduism is not the oldest of all the religions. It is Islam which is the first and the oldest of all religions. People have a misconception that Islam is 1400 years old and that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the founder of this religion. Islam existed since time immemorial, ever since man first set foot on this earth. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not the founder of Islam. He was the last and final Messenger of Almighty God.

 

The oldest religion need not be the purest and the most authentic religion

A religion cannot be claimed to be most pure and authentic, only on the criterion that it is the oldest. It is similar to a person saying that the water he has kept in an open glass, in his house, outside the refrigerator, for three months is purer than the water which has just been collected in a clean glass, immediately after it has been purified.

 

The latest religion need not be the purest and the most authentic religion

On the other hand a religion cannot be claimed to be the purest or authentic, only on the criterion that the religion is new or the latest. A bottle of distilled water which is sealed, packed and kept in the refrigerator for three months is much purer than a bottle of water freshly collected from the sea.

 

For religion to be pure and authentic, it should not have interpolations, changes and revisions in its scriptures revealed from God

For any religion to be pure and authentic, its scriptures should not contain any interpolation, addition, deletion or revision. Moreover the religion’s source of inspiration and direction should be Almighty God. The Qur’an is the only religious scripture on the face of the earth which has been maintained it its original form. All the other religious scriptures, of all the other religions have interpolations, additions, deletions or revisions. The Qur’an has been in the memory of a multitude of people, intact in its original form ever since its revelation, and now there are hundreds of thousands of people who have preserved it in their memory. Moreover, if you compare the copies made by Caliph Uthman from the original Qur’an which is yet present in the museum in Tashkent and in Koptaki museum in Turkey, they are the same as the ones we possess today.

 

Allah (swt) promises in the Qur’an, in Surah Al Hijr, chapter 15 verse 9

 

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."

 

The oldest religion need not be best religion

A religion cannot be claimed to be the best religion only on the criterion that it is the oldest. It is similar to a person saying, that my 19th century car is better than a Toyota car manufactured in 1998, because it is older. He would be considered to be a fool to say that his 19th century car which required a rod to be turned in circles to start it, is better than a key-start 1998 Toyota car, just because it is older.

 

The latest religion need not be the best religion

On the other hand a religion cannot be called as the best religion only on the criterion that the religion is new or that it came later. It is similar to a person who says that my 800 cc Suzuki car manufactured in 1999 is better than a 5000 cc Mercedes 500 SEL manufactured in 1997. To judge which car is better, a person should compare the specifications of the car e.g. the power of the car, safety measures, the capacity of the cylinders, the pickup, the speed, the comfort, etc. 5000 cc Mercedes, 500 SEL car manufactured in 1997, is far superior and better than a 800 cc Suzuki (Maruti Suzuki 800) manufactured in 1999.

 

A religion is best, if it has the solutions to the problems of mankind

For a religion to be considered the best, it should have the solution to all the problems of mankind. It should be the religion of truth, and should be applicable to all ages. Islam is the only religion which has the solution to all the problems of mankind. e.g. the problem of alcoholism, surplus women, rape and molestation, robbery, racism, casteism, etc.

 

Islam is the religion of truth, and its laws and solutions are applicable to all the ages. The Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth, which has maintained its purity and authenticity proving itself to be the word of God in all the ages. i.e. previously, when it was the age of miracles, literature and poetry and in present times when it is the age of science and technology. Moreover, Islam is not a man-made religion, but a religion revealed and inspired by Almighty God. It is the only religion acceptable in His Sight.

[Guest guest]

ARE RAM AND KRISHNA PROPHETS OF GOD?

 

Question:

 

If according to Islam, messengers or prophets were sent to each and every nation of the world, then which prophet was sent to India? Can we consider Ram and Krishna to be messengers of God?

 

Answer:

 

 

 

Prophets sent to every nation

 

The Glorious Qur’an mentions in Surah Fatir, chapter 35 verse 24

 

". . . And there never was a people, without a warner

having lived among them (in the past)."

[Al-Qur’an 35:24]

 

A similar message is repeated in Surah Rad, chapter 13 verse 7

 

". . . and to every people a guide."

[Al-Qur’an 13:7]

 

Stories only of some prophets narrated in the Qur’an

 

Allah (swt) says in Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 164

 

"Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others we have not."

[Al-Qur’an 4:164]

 

A similar message is repeated in Surah Ghafir chapter 40 verse 78

 

"We did aforetime send messengers before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. . ."

[Al’Qur’an 40:78]

 

25 Prophets of God are mentioned by name in the Qur’an

By name, only 25 Prophets of God are mentioned in the Qur’an e.g. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammed (pbut)

 

More than 1,24,000 prophets of God

According to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), there were more than 1,24,000 prophets sent to this world.

 

All previous prophets sent only for their people

All the prophets that came before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) were only sent for their own people and were to be followed only for a particular period of time.

 

Surah Ali Imran, chapter 3 verse 49

 

"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, . . ."

[Al-Qur’an 3:49]

 

Muhammad (pbuh), the last messenger of God

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and final messenger of Almighty God. It is mentioned in

 

Surah Ahzab, chapter 33 verse 40

 

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things."

[Al-Qur’an 33:40]

 

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), sent for whole Humankind

 

Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and final messenger, he was not sent only for the Muslims or the Arabs, but he was sent for the whole of humankind.

 

It is mentioned in

 

Surah Anbiya, chapter 21 verse 107

 

"We sent thee not, but as a mercy for all creatures."

[Al’Qur’an 21:107]

 

A similar message is repeated in

 

Surah Saba, chapter 34 verse 28

 

"We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not."

[Al Qur’an 34:28]

 

It is mentioned in

 

Sahih Bukhari, volume 1, Book of Salaah, chapter 56 hadith no. 429

 

Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah: Allah’s Messenger said,

 

"Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind."

 

Which prophet was sent to India?

Regarding the question of which prophet of God was sent to India, and can we consider Ram or Krishna to be prophets of God, there is no text in the Qur’an or Sahih Hadith mentioning the name of the prophet that was sent to India. Since the names of Ram and Krishna are nowhere to be found in the Qur’an and Sahih Hadith, one cannot say for sure whether they were prophets of God or not. Some Muslims, especially certain Muslim politicians who try to appease the Hindus, say Ram Alai-his-salaam, i.e. Ram, may peace be on him. This is totally wrong, since there is no authentic proof from the Qur’an and Sahih Hadith that he was a prophet of God. However, a person may say that perhaps they may have been the prophets of God.

 

Even if Ram and Krishna were prophets, today we have to follow the last Prophet of God i.e. Muhammad (pbuh)

Even if Ram and Krishna were prophets of God, they were only meant for people of that time and were to be followed only for that particular period of time. Today, all the human beings throughout the world, including India should only follow the last and final prophet and Messenger of God – prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

 

10. ARE THE VEDAS A REVELATION OF GOD?

 

Question:

 

If Allah has sent His books and revelations in every period, then which revelation was sent to India? Can we consider the Vedas and other Hindu scriptures to be the word of God?

 

Answer:

 

 

 

Revelation sent in every period

The Glorious Qur’an mentions in Surah Rad, chapter 13 verse 38

 

"For each period is a book (revealed)."

[Al-Qur’an 13:38]

 

Four revelations of God mentioned by name in Qur’an

 

By name, only four revelations of God are mentioned in the Qur’an i.e. Torah, Zaboor, Injeel and the Qur’an

Torah is the revelation which was given to Moses (pbuh)

 

Zaboor is the revelation which was given to David (pbuh)

 

Injeel is the revelation which was given to Jesus (pbuh)

 

and Qur’an is the last and final revelation which was given to the last and final Messenger Muhammad (pbuh).

 

All the previous revelations sent only for their people

All the revelations that came before Qur’an were only sent for their own people and were to be followed only for a particular time period.

 

The Qur’an sent for whole humankind

Since the Qur’an is the last and final revelation, it was not sent only for the Muslims or the Arabs but it was sent for the whole of humankind. It is mentioned in:

 

Surah Ibrahim, chapter 14 verse 1

 

"Alif Lam Ra. A book which We have revealed unto thee, in order that thou mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light . . ."

[Al-Qur’an 14:1]

 

A similar message is repeated in Surah Ibrahim chapter 14 verse 52

 

"Here is a Message for mankind: let them take warning therefrom, and let them know that He is (no other than) One God: let men of understanding take heed."

[Al-Qur’an 14:52]

 

Qur’an mentions in Surah Baqarah chapter 2 verse 185

 

"Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur’an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgement (between right and wrong)."

[Al-Qur’an 2:185]

 

A similar message is repeated in Surah Zumur chapter 39 verse 41

 

"Verily We have revealed the Book to thee in Truth, for (instructing) mankind."

[Al-Qur’an 39:41]

 

Which revelation sent to India?

The question that arises is "which revelation of God was sent to India and whether we can consider the Vedas and the other Hindu Scriptures to be the revelations of God?" There is no text in the Qur’an or Sahih Hadith mentioning the name of the revelation that was sent to India. Since the names of the Vedas or other Hindu scriptures are no where to be found in Qur’an and Sahih Hadith, one cannot say for sure that they were the revelations of God. They may be the revelation of God or may not be the revelation of God.

 

Even if the Veda was the word of God today you have to follow the Qur’an

Even if the Vedas and the other scriptures were the revelations from God, they were only meant for people of that time and were to be followed only for that particular period of time. Today all human beings through out the world including India should only follow the last and final Revelation of God, i.e. the Qur’an. Moreover since all the previous revelations were not meant to be followed for eternity, Almighty God did not preserve them in their original form. There is not a single religious scripture of any of the major religions which claims to be the word of God and has maintained its pure original text and is free from alteration, adulteration and interpolation. Since the Glorious Qur’an is to be followed for eternity, Allah (swt) has taken upon Himself to maintain its original purity and guard it from corruption. Allah says in Glorious Qur’an.

 

Surah Hijr chapter 15 verse 9

 

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."

[Al-Qur’an 15:9]

 

 

[theist]

I'm not interested in trying to debate this topic. But a question does arise from reading this:

 

The Glorious Quran mentions in Surah Fatir, chapter 35 verse 24

 

". . . And there never was a people, without a warner

having lived among them (in the past)."

[Al-Quran 35:24]

 

A similar message is repeated in Surah Rad, chapter 13 verse 7

 

". . . and to every people a guide."

[Al-Quran 13:7]

 

 

I notice "in the past" has been put in parentheses. Is it there in the original?

 

"...and to every people a guide."

 

What of the people in future times and lands? Does a prophet not come for them?

[Mxyzptlk]

The muslim was able to quote from all the scriptures (including hindu scriptures) thru his memory while justifying it and the poor philosopher based all his points purely from a health perspective as per jain philosophy.

 

It is little wonder that the Jain philosopher lost the debate. Merely employing the "health" arguments while the opponent is firing away with his entire arsenal, including scripture, is a recipe for defeat. The Jain could have won had he taken advantage of the many convincing, if not irrefutable, arguments relating to the economics, ethics, and of course the scriptural foundations of vegetarianism. If the Muslim is quoting scripture left and right, not only his own but other scriptures from around the world, and the Jain merely counters with the "health" angle, then it doesn't sound as if he was properly prepared for this debate. I have a great book by a devotee named Steven Rosen (Satyaraja.) I haven't read it in a while, but always found it tremendously useful whenever I found myself needing some "ammo" to counter an aggressive meat-eater who wants to quote scripture to support his views. I believe the book was entitled "Food for the Spirit." Or something like that. I think it's obtainable from Krsna Culture, although their online catalogue is incomplete and doesn't advertise this particular book. This book offers *numerous* irrefutable quotes from *all* the major scriptures in the world, including the Koran.

 

I more or less share the same mood as Theist Ji, and I'm not so inclined to become involved in this debate except to say that next time, the Jain, or whoever else wishes to debate the Muslims on this issue, should adopt a different strategy, in addition to researching the subject carefully in advance, from all angles. He should be able to debate scripture vs scripture and have access to tons of quotes from the various religious books which the Muslim is also using. If he can hold his ground there, (which shouldn't be too difficult), then the health, economic, and ethical arguments are icing on the cake, so to speak. Not that I'm an expert on the subject, but that's the way I would have approached it, were I debating a Muslim on this issue.

[Guest guest]

if your 'campaign is not for hate against muslims but hate against meat eaters' then i suggest that you write it again because as a Muslim myself it sounds to me as if you are trying to get back at the Muslims whose words and dawah are getting across to people and that you are trying to stop that!

[Guest guest]

i strongly agree with your answer to the question!