ayodhya vasi ram

[Guest guest]

the ram temple issue has been burning for decades now. this issue has religious, historical, social dynamics to it. the rath yatra conducted for the purpose of building the temple at ayodhya brought the names of ram to the lips of every indian - 100 million. even accidental chanting of the names of the names of the lord give eternal benefit. so one cannot deny the spiritual dimension of this issue. caitanya mahaprabhu mentions that any one who chants the name of the lord is indeed a devotee. so this issue did make devotees - more devotees than all the preaching effort by iskcon. while it is true that iskcon makes some high quality devotees, it is not correct to underestimate the preaching work done by others just because they are outside the cult.

 

more on this issue after hearing from devotees...

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

And the assasination of Mahatma Gandhi also brought many people to mention how he chanted the name of Rama at the time of death. By your logic this murder was a good act of preaching.

 

Everytime a child is born in India a name of God is chanted thousands of times (as all the children are named after God). The sqwuaking of parrots does not make the parrot a devotee.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

even accidental chanting of the names of the names of the lord give eternal benefit. so one cannot deny the spiritual dimension of this issue.

 

 

And not to mention Al Gore in the presidential elections.

 

How many millions of times was the name "Gaur" unknowingly chanted?

[Guest guest]

JNDas,

 

Are you saying that accidental chanting is not beneficial?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Are you saying that accidental chanting is not beneficial?

 

 

Chanting the names of God is always beneficial, even unknowingly. The Puranas speak of people dying uttering the word "haram", which is considered a bad word, yet receiving transcendental benefit for offenslessly uttering the name of "ram". Lord Ramachandra says in the Ramayana, "Whoever calls My name in fear, I will take a vow to protect that person."

 

But when one commits offenses while chanting the name of the Lord, the transcendental results may not be achieved. To commit violence against the Lord's children in His name is certainly an offense to the Lord, and it will not bring about transcendental results.

 

My disagreement is with the following statement:

 

 

even accidental chanting of the names of the names of the lord give eternal benefit. so one cannot deny the spiritual dimension of this issue.

 

 

The fact that the ultimate outcome is positive does not make the original action positive or spiritual. By destroying the Mosque in Ayodhya, and killing many Muslims in the process, the name of Ram may have been heard throughout the world. But this does not make the destruction of Babri Masjid spiritual.

 

The example of Al Gore is the same. The chanting of the name of Gaur is beneficial for all, but this does not make Al Gore a spiritual personality by default.

 

It is simply the Lord's causeless mercy that by chanting His names unknowingly we attain spiritual benefit, even though the activity that brought that chanting may be pious or impious.

 

This following statement is also incorrect:

 

 

while it is true that iskcon makes some high quality devotees, it is not correct to underestimate the preaching work done by others just because they are outside the cult.

 

 

Killing Muslims in the name of Ram is not preaching work. It may lead to people hearing Ram's name on BBC news, which will bring the listeners ajnata-sukriti, but the perpetrators of the act are still sinful. They are more sinful than others, as they are committing their sins on the strength of God's holy name.

[Guest guest]

What was Prabhupada's opinion on this issue ? On what basis is the stand taken by ISKCON that the ram temple should not be built at Ayodhya where it originally was ?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Prabhupada:

 

 

And those who think that “I have killed God” or “I have finished God,” they are iconoclast. Just like in India we have experienced during British days. There were Hindu-Muslim riots. So the Hindus would go to the mosque of the Muslim and break it, and the Muslim would go the temples of the Hindus and break the idol. And they’ll think that “We have finished Hindu’s God.” Just like Hindus also think, “Oh, we have broken their mosque. Therefore I have broken their God.” These are foolishness.

 

So these are foolishness. They are not jnani. One who has got real conception of God, they have no quarrel with each other. All the history of religious fight, Hindu-Muslim or Christian–non-Christian, they are all ignorant. They are all ignorant. One who is in the knowledge, he knows that God is one. God cannot be Hindu. God cannot be Muslim. God cannot be Christian. God is God. He has no material qualification. It is our conception that “God is such and such. God is such and such.” That is imagination. That is called iconographer. So they are not jnani. They are not man in knowledge. Man in knowledge is different. He knows that God is transcendental."

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Again, Prabhupada:

 

 

Prahlada Maharaja says that from the very childhood one should be taught. I have seen in India. The Muhammadans, they are very much particular about it. The small children, within ten years, they are... From the very beginning they are taught Koran in the mosques. I have seen. In my Delhi headquarter, it is just behind the Jama Musjid. You have heard the name of Jama Musjid. That is the greatest mosque in the world. Many foreigners go to see it. It was constructed by Emperor Shah Jahan, say, about three hundred years or little more than that. So the Muhammadans, they are very particular to teach the Koran from the very beginning. That’s a very nice system. Either you teach Koran or you, Koran, Bible, or you teach Bhagavad-gita, it doesn’t matter. One should have the idea of God consciousness.

 

 

[Gauracandra]

Here is a nice story told by Manjari devi from the "Memories" series:

 

Manjari: Prabhupada was in Iran for Lord Balaram's Appearance Day in the summer of 1976. It was a nice atmosphere. All the flowers were blooming in the summer heat. At one point, Prabhupada called Iran heaven on earth. At night he would sit on the balcony with the devotees and guests. Iran is a Muslim country, so three times a day, at gayatri times, over the loudspeakers they have a chant calling everybody to pray. It's beautiful. Prabhupada listened to these prayers going on and then turned to Atreya and asked, "What is this?" Atreya said, "This is the Muslim call to pray to God. They're saying the names of God." Prabhupada said, "That is very good. They're calling everyone to prayer." Atreya said, "But, Prabhupada, isn't it better to say the name of Krishna rather than Allah?" Prabhupada said, "You're asking me to be sectarian?"

[stonehearted]

BJP: not particularly favorable. I remember hearing of comments he made to the effect that they were a bunch of crackpot old men who drank their own urine (several BJP leaders in the '70s did this as part of a health regimen). He seemed to be as critical of them and their Hindu nationalism as he was of Mrs. Gandhi's prgram that included forced sterilization program, which included babajis around Vraja.

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Where does Shiva say he is God?

[Guest guest]

i dont argue with guests - /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

anyway, no where does allah or jehovah say I am God. only the prophets say that Allah is God or that Jehovah is God. Similarly, devotees as exalted as nayanmars say Siva is God. If you can accept the authority of jesus, prophet or prabhupada - on what grounds do you reject the authority of nayanmars ?

 

[Guest guest]

I was not argueing, could you tell me who nayanmars is and where he says Shiva is God?

[theist]

honest question. What distinctions are there between Vishnu tattva and Shiva tattva?

[Guest guest]

guest, i was just joking because you did not use your name. generally a guest is considered to be equal to the devas - aditi devo bhava. so one does not argue with "guests".

 

nayanmars are 63 in number and they are very exalted devotees of lord siva. their life stories are known to us through their own songs just the same way we know the lives of alwars. the nayanmars' lives are known through the historical references also. they consider siva supreme in their songs of devotion.

[Guest guest]

I guess I should have asked who the nayanmars are, and why do they say Shiva is God?

[Guest guest]

i agree with jndas and gauracander - though not entirely. does prabhupada advice being docile in the face of aggression ? i dont see that.

 

when WTO was attacked, the US reacted violently against innocent populace in afghanistan even though the act of terror itself was committed by only a few people. 80% of the world population agreed with the american view because americans were considered victims.

 

the destruction of WTO is nothing - i repeat absolutely nothing - compared to the destruction of hindu temples all over india by muslim invaders. temples and chastity were at the heart of hindu life. the muslims took away both by destroying the temples and raping the hindu women. it is only proper for india to correct its history so that such a violence does not recur. even today - be it Bombay riots or Godhra - violence was started by muslims. it is not as jndas makes it out - hindus are not out there killing muslims in the name of God. they are simply demanding that they get their temples back.

 

i am not saying that every one who wants to build a temple for ram in ayodhya is a pure devotee. there are different material motivations such as politics, fame etc. but that is true anywhere incl. ISKCON. the point is that millions of people are made to realize that ram is their god and they have vowed to build a temple for ram. the ajnatha sukrti, as jndas put it, that comes from this is worth the effort. so what are we criticizing ? this babur masjid is not even a place of worship - it was unused for decades. why cant muslims give it up for the sake of hindu brethern ?

 

all this coexistence talk is worth only a sunday feast lecture to unquestioning followers. practically speaking, why should one tolerate cow slaughter in a holy dham ? and it will be done explicitly if there were a mosque next door. in srirangam, where majority are vegetarians muslims run slaughter houses to kill cows.

[theist]

all this coexistence talk is worth only a sunday feast lecture to unquestioning followers. practically speaking, why should one tolerate cow slaughter in a holy dham ? and it will be done explicitly if there were a mosque next door. in srirangam, where majority are vegetarians muslims run slaughter houses to kill cows.

 

cow slaughter should not be tolerated anywhere.It has nothing to do with being in the vacinity of a Hindhu temple or not. I feel that they can take their cow slaughter to Pakistan. But we are talking of worship.

 

And what would you do with those Hindus that slaughter in the name of Kali?

 

Of course terrorists should be hunted down and killed. But by the authorities and not the common man in the street. I heard a Sikh was killed in the USA after WTO because the person mistook him for a Taliban. They saw his head covering and it incited their hatred.

 

Hindus may kill Muslims who kill Christians who kill Hindus but the truly God conscious will remain aloof from this madness.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

nayanmars are 63 in number and they are very exalted devotees of lord siva.

 

 

Those in the line of Sri Chaitanya accept His teachings as authority over all others. Sri Chaitanya established the Brahma Samhita as a spotless scripture, and therein it explains perfectly the position of Lord Shiva in relation to Lord Krishna.

 

We offer all respects to great saints such as the Nayanmars, but we do not accept their conclusions. Even Narada may sometimes appear to be confused as to the nature of the absolute. When seeing Lord Brahma, Narada addressed him as the supreme being, and in response Brahma explained to him that he was mistaken - only Vishnu is the svantantra para-tattva, independent absolute reality.

 

 

does prabhupada advice being docile in the face of aggression ?

 

 

No. Building a Ram temple in Ayodhya is just an act of revenge to encite violence against muslims within India. Atrocities have been committed hundreds of years ago, but we need to forgive and move on. Just see the Japanese. The United States dropped two nuclear bombs on them just 50 years ago. Yet today they are working together in cooperation. And that is without any spiritual insight!

 

The Hindus, with all their high philosophy of Vedanta, and their ocean of Vedic knowledge, cannot rise beyond hatred and forgive those wrongs that were committed hundreds of years ago. Judge everyone for their own actions. Do not ascribe those atrocities to the entire faith of Muslims simply because a few kings hundreds of years ago did some wrong. Do you know any Muslims personally? Don't you have any friends who are Muslims living next to you? Do you really want to throw them out of India, or break their mosques, or force them to convert to your religion? Of course not. When we can create an anonymous figure respresenting "Evil", it becomes easy to hate. But when we see people individually, we see the good in them, and our hatred becomes more difficult. We realize the hatred is our own defect, and not a defect in them.

 

 

the destruction of WTO is nothing - i repeat absolutely nothing - compared to the destruction of hindu temples all over india by muslim invaders.

 

 

And remember, if the WTO attack occured in India, literally millions of Muslims would have been killed in riots. How many innocent sikhs were killed when Indira Gandhi, a single lady, was assasinated? Is this the Gita you follow? Where is your Hindu dharma at those times? Everyone is simply "dharma-dvajis". Externally they carry the flags of Hinduism, but they imbibe none of the divine teachings. As a result, their ultimate result is only hatred and sectarianism.

 

How many Muslims were killed in the U.S. in retaliatory riots? 1 Muslim and 1 Sikh. And you want to condemn Christianity? It is because of the tremendous moral foundation of Christianity that none were killed there. Yet in India, where there is the highest philosophy, the raja-vidya, the raja-guhya, there is only hatred and intolerane. Learn this lesson from Christianity and realize there is a divine message in all religions. Take the essence from all sources of knowledge and develop your spiritual potential.

 

 

the muslims took away both by destroying the temples and raping the hindu women.

 

 

These crimes were committed hundreds of years ago. It is time to forgive the world and leave judgement to God.

 

 

it is not as jndas makes it out - hindus are not out there killing muslims in the name of God.

 

 

Yes they are. You are fortunate to live in Tamil Nadu, where there is little anti-muslim sentiment. In Bhadrak, Orissa hundreds were killed in the name of Rama. And in response hundreds of Marwadis were killed by fanatic Muslims. And these cowards on both sides target the innocent, the women and children.

 

In Ayodhya when the Babri Mosque was broken, there were literally tens of thousands of dead bodies piled on the sides of the roads. The government put a ban on broadcasting these images hoping to stop the spread of violence across the country.

 

The people of Ayodhya do not want the RSS and VHP there. They have lived peacefully with the Muslims for years. It is all outsiders who come and bring trouble. Politicians play on the sentiments of the ignorant farmers and push them into situations where they know violence will result. The RSS was paying illiterate farmers to travel in the thousands to Ayodhya for "puja", knowing there will be riots as the crowd grows.

 

 

practically speaking, why should one tolerate cow slaughter in a holy dham ?

 

 

Cow slaughter must be banned everywhere. Srila Prabhupada has answered this question. He said, "If I claim my religion is to slit your throat, will the government allow it?" So the government cannot blindly allow violence to go on in the name of religion. It must act to protect all citizens (praja), which according to the Vedas includes the animals.

[madhav]

>>so this issue did make devotees - more devotees than all the preaching effort by iskcon. <<

 

in my view, rath yatra or the organizers of rath yatra did not "make" or "create" devotees but gave them voice, oppertunity to chant for political reason. 85 % of india's polupation is already rama devotee. this is how it is since the time or rama.

 

because the muslims and the xians kicked the hindus in their own land for several centuries, the hindus almost gave up playing any part in rajkaaran. now, all the past suffering caused to them by the invaders has caused them to rise and react, and react with unresistible might. this phenomena is wrongly labled by the invader aggressors (and anti hindu media) as "hindu fanatism" but the term is an oximoron. hindu revolition is taking place internally within hindus and externally also.

 

yes, chanting 'rama' benefits, even when chanted in ignorance. ajaamil said,"oh narayan" at the time of his death and vishnudootas took him to vaikuntha, even when he was calling his son narayan, says bhagavtam.

 

now you can see who speaks above the authority of srimad bhagavatam.

[Guest guest]

dear jndas prabhu -

 

christiendom has rarely ever been a forgiving religion. when the church in jerusalem was demolished by salim, the entire christiendom rose in war. no one turned the other cheek. crusade, nazi oppression of the jews - there are hundreds of cases of proactive christian immorality. the people in the us were silent after WTO because they know the system is strong. the government immediately took action both externally and internally. if there is anarchy as in modern india, people will take law in their hands. secondly, in a poor country people take to streets because they have little stake in their lives. that is not the case in a developed country. when roman empire failed, there was indeed a fall from grace and moral uprightness. we should see american morality if its economy crashes - not when people have house, cars, food and recreation. the oppression of labour during the times of slavery is a good preview of what is around the corner.

 

india cannot pass a law and implement it. for example, the government cannot control mere corruption or traffic - what to speak of controlling violence against innocent people or cross border terrorism. the solution is not for hindus to continue to forgive due to cowardice. that will only push the problems under the carpet. the solution is to create a system where the miscreants are punished.

 

theist prabhu's point that cow slaughter should be banned all over is correct. whether it is muslims or ignorant hindus or christians, killers of cows are to be condemned. but it has to be a gradual process. sankaracharyas are fighting for law against cow slaughter risking their lives. they are also protecting as many cows as they can. at least we should protect the holy dhams from cow slaughter, prostitution etc. this will give ordinary people have a model to look up to. as far as i know, some people in iskcon have done a good job of this by protecting mayapur from entry of liquor barons, coffee and tea.

 

it is incorrect to say that we should allow the holy dhams to be contaminated with beef etc. in the name of tolerance.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

the solution is not for hindus to continue to forgive due to impotence. that will only push the problems under the carpet.

 

 

These attrocities took place hundreds of years ago. The culprits are dead and being punished by God according to their karma. Thus forgiveness of past wrongs is the correct solution to the problem at this point in time. Foolish Hindus want to punish present day Muslims for attrocities committed hundreds of years before. Judge all people for their own actions.

 

 

the solution is to create a system where the miscreants are punished.

 

 

God has done that, have faith in Him. You have no power to punish the miscreants of the past. They acted out of ignorance and have since been reborn to suffer their karmas many times over. Have compassion for their souls, for they need it. And pray to Lord Krishna that they may somehow come to the point of spiritual knowledge to free themselves from their bondage.

[Guest guest]

dear jndas prabhu,

 

by the mercy of mahaprabhu, i hope that those souls are saved from hellish life and go back to krishna. i am perhaps more sinful in nature than all the muslim aggressors and may not be qualified to even pray for their upliftment. why i may have been one of the aggressors in the past lives - who knows ?

 

but my view is :

 

the holy dhams are very important and have to be protected from religious aggression. it is like vatican would not allow one to build a hindu temple there. or mayapur would not allow liquor shops. the government should protect vedic religion in the holy dhams as it is heritage. otherwise, the holy dhams should be made an international property because protecting them is the responsibility of human race as a whole - not just the hindus.

 

the system should be strengthened so that violence against comman man is not possible. in the us, none of the millions of hindus attacked the muslims after WTO - did they ? the muslims should be allowed to practice their religion outside the holy dham including cow slaughter and verbal abuse of kafirs. but there should be effort to educate them by non-government organizations.

[stonehearted]

ram sez: no where does allah or jehovah say I am God.

 

No, Jehovah doesn't say that you are God, but He sure he is God. In the First Commandment He says, "I am the Lord thy God. . . ." Have you actually read the Bible and the Quran? It's a good idea to have some specific support for any assertions we make. (Sorry--that's the English teacher in me.)