ayodhya vasi ram

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

the holy dhams are very important and have to be protected from religious aggression.

 

 

There is no religious aggression in the holy Dhamas today. There are no temple's being destroyed by Muslim invaders. Come back to the present.

 

 

it is like vatican would not allow one to build a hindu temple there.

 

 

I look forward to the day when a Krishna temple is built in the Vatican, side by side with the Church.

 

 

...or mayapur would not allow liquor shops.

 

 

Materialists are not able to make a distinction between a house of God (church, mosque, or temple) and a liquor shop. Not much can be said to such people.

 

 

the muslims should be allowed to practice their religion outside the holy dham...

 

 

People of all religions should be free to practice devotional service to the Lord in every holy place of pilgrimage. This includes Ayodhya, the Vatican, Jurusalem and Mecca.

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

[stonehearted]

ram: well then, are nayanmars not transcendental ? are they contaminated with material envy ? they did establish the supremacy of siva. so why are you rejecting their realization ?

 

rocky: Get with the program, sir. Where did I reject the nayanmars' realization? You're responding to my signature, not to the text of my post.

 

ram: oh! that would just mean that he is god to the prophet - even if you accept them as bonafide scriptures. it does not mean he is the supreme lord. where does allah or jehovah say - i am the supreme lord krishna ? or where does krishna say that i am allah or jehovah ?

 

rockhead: Actually, those commandments were given to Moses for the Israelites. Anyway, I was responding to your assertion that there is no place where Jehovah claims to be God. I didn't say anything about Jehovah claiming to be Vishnu or Krishna because that's not what you wrote. I was responding to what you actually wrote, not to what you intended to write. And I certainly never asserted that Krishna claims to be Jehovah.

 

Watch out--here comes my signature again. Don't let it distract you!

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

[stonehearted]

That's all very nice, sir, and I suppose it makes you feel very superior. However, you originally stated that there was nowhere Jehovah claimed to be God--with a capital G--and that's precisely what He did in Exodus. Moreover, Srila Prabhupada repeatedly asserted that Krishna is the same Godhead as the God of the Christians, Jews, muslims, and others. There's only one supreme Godhead who appears in myriad forms. The original form of Godhead is Krishna, who likes to horse around in different ways with His associates in Vraja, and who ultimately expands Himself into other forms recognizable as Godhead to the followers of vedic religions and others.

 

You have probably noticed that those of us who have heard from self-realized spiritual masters respect sectarian/nationalist concerns for what they are: very limited, parochial thinking. We've been taught to think big--the realm of the soul seeking to revive its relationship with the Ultimate Enjoyer. And since you keep moving the line, I think I'll let others play. My long experience shows that such "debate" yields no useful fruit. I prefer conversation.

[Guest guest]

it would have been more truthful had i accepted my ignorance/forgetfulness of the commandments. yes, you are correct - he did say to moses that i am thy god. as srila prabhupada put it, it may be that krishna or one of his expansions gave the commandments to moses to protect dharma. as i introspect, it looks like i am reacting to devotees' sectarianism (against sankara's school) with counter-sectarianism. but one who is attempting to be vedantin has to try and rise above narrow sectarianism.

[anveshan]

A profound historian or an archaeological expert is not needed to prove whether Ram Temple was razed to the ground and a Masjid built upon it. Knowledge of a little bit of oriental and so-called islamic history say it all.

 

The barbaric Baber, to please his god, allah, raised it and rebuilt it. In the process he might have massacred thousands.

 

But then religious history is the history of bloddy wars.

All the temples of the ancient cultures were razed to the ground by the neo-religionists, the followers of the "only son" and the "last prophet". And wars of the holy cross and the crscent were fought between them, some churches were replaced by the house of the merciful one, after shedding much blood. The subjugated were massacred or tortured and coerced into conversion.

 

History repeated itself. Babri Masjid was razed to the ground and Ram temple is in the offing.

 

And it is absurd that chanting "haram" or "Gaur" one can appease god. That which can be appeased is not god. Or that wich get angered or is vengeful is not god. They are you and me: the animals.

 

Ayodhya is not 'holy' or 'unholy'. Neither Mecca is. The entire cosmos is neither holy or unholy. Because It is beyond all the qualities and attributes. "isovasyamidam sarvam"

=anveshanam=

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

[theist]

ram, also the injuction states that they were not to replicate any image of anything within this cosmic manifestation and worship that. I have read that as an ijunction against demigod worship as well as any product of our imagination. What do you think?

 

I may be reading too much into it, I don't know.

 

 

[Guest guest]

theist, even though we may be speculating it is possible that the commandments were against any form of deity worship. in fact worship of demigods would call for more austerity than the worship of krishna. krishna only needs love - just a leaf, a few flowers, fruits and water are enough to worship him. but that is not the case for demigods. even the qualified brahmanas chant the names of krishna after performing smartha karma to protect themselves from the adverse reactions of any mispronunciation of mantras, bad timing, improper offering etc.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I just saw a documentary on the Discovery Channel about Partition between India and Pakistan. They interviewed many of the victims from both India and Pakistan. They said one million people were killed on both sides in riots, murder, etc.

 

One particularly shocking interview was with someone who had fled Pakistan Punjab. Their state had been cut in half, and overnight they were forced to flee. So this person said they were terrified, as they had to travel through the Muslim territoriesto reach India, and as they went, they were ambushed and killed by mobs of Muslims. So at one point their group (not sure how many, but seemed like many families) had a meeting and decided it would be better to kill all their women themselves so that they aren't taken by Muslims and raped. After the meeting they assembled all their wives, daughters and sisters and killed them with their own hands. He said some of them they killed by burning, dousing them with some flamable substance.

 

Pretty shocking to hear what types of things happened. Also shocking to hear how they could kill their own family like this. The attrocities were equally committed against the Mulsims fleeing India. They described how Hindu's would kill the men and then throw the babies into bonfires.

 

I really can't imagine there existing such a hatred for another race, that could bring someone to want to kill others for no reason at all in such a cruel manner. Unfortunately it does exist.

 

Compare such a mindset with that of the nonsectarian pure devotee of God such as Srila Prabhupada. We are so lucky to have found him.

 

[stonehearted]

And thanks, ram, for showing the humility we are accustomed to seeing in your posts. After I posted my last note, it occured to me that I may have written something harsher than necessary. That may be because I was at least partly reacting to earlier posts from another member who really does seem to believe that his (?) Hindu-nationalist sentiments are spiritual knowledge. I'm sorry if I came across as mean-spirited (or, more honestly, that I allowed my mean-spirited nature to show).

[theist]

ram, you are probably right. I just don't know much about their society or customs(religious or secular) that would be of reference.

 

It does say(I think) that Moses after coming down from the mountain broke the tablets because in his absence they had made some golden calve and started worshipping it.

[Guest guest]

actually my humility, if any thing, is a learnt trait due to association with hh bhanu swami maharaj and so many wonderful devotees. true humility will come only with knowledge.

 

 

 

 

[anveshan]

There is nothing as 'holy' or 'unholy' names; that which you consider'holy' is 'holy' to you and 'unholy', 'unholy'.

Place a snake in your heart, chant "nagarajasya namomyaham'

a thousand times with deep devotion. The Brahmakumari school of Sanatana Dharma is a non-religious body. They asks you to chant"I am an atman" a thousand times with devotion and intensity. You may give a name to a metallic object, a stone or anything material and start chanting with devotion. You may chant Allah or Jehovah or Ravana.

And slowly you feel that you are becoming one with IT, the Reality Ultimate. The object is not the subject of realization. It is the Supreme Energy. And all rivers, ultimately and inevitably, has to reach the Ocean. Your Naada melts into the Brahmam. Just like in Algebra, symbols

are used to reach the End.

 

I, a non-religeous person, recites the verses of Shankaracharyaduring my meditation. And through Vishwanath

and Annapurna I seek to realize IT. In the process I get immense joy. If I were a born Muslim or taught to chant allahu akbar in my childhood, I would have chanted it and might have realized the same joy.

 

The story of Narasimha, to my ignorant mind, is a story like that of panchatantra to educate us. Trying to convey a message. Lord of all beings do not prejudice between forms...matsya, koorma, varaha, nara or simha , all are equal to IT

 

=anveshanam=

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

The Brahmakumari school of Sanatana Dharma is a non-religious body. They asks you to chant "I am an atman" a thousand times with devotion and intensity. You may give a name to a metallic object, a stone or anything material and start chanting with devotion. You may chant Allah or Jehovah or Ravana.

 

 

Quite a speculative hypothesis. Unfortunately it isn't supported by any Vedic scripture. Just a concoction of modern minds. There certainly is a difference between the name of Rama and that of Ravana. As Prabhupada said, "You may choose to chant Coca-cola, but I will chant Hare Krishna and go back to godhead."

 

The empowered names of God are nondifferent from the Absolute Truth:

 

nama cintamanih krishnas

caitanya-rasa-vigrahah

purnah suddho nitya-mukto

'bhinnatvan nama-naminoh

 

"The holy name of Krishna is transcendentally blissful. It bestows all spiritual benedictions, for it is Krishna Himself, the reservoir of all pleasure. Krishna's name is complete, and it is the form of all-transcendental mellows. It is not a material name under any condition, and it is no less powerful than Krishna Himself. Since Krishna's name is not contaminated by the material qualities, there is no question of its being involved with maya. Krishna's name is always liberated and spiritual; it is never conditioned by the laws of material nature. This is because the name of Krishna and Krishna Himself are identical."

 

Krishna's name is para-shabda, wherein there is no distinction between sound and object (abhinnatvan nama naminoh). Mundane sound (existing on the levels of vaikhari, madhyama and pashyanti) is distinct from the object being addressed.

 

The absolute power of Lord Krishna's name is described by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu:

 

namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-shaktih

 

"Krishna's name possesses sarva-shakti, complete and absolute power."

 

In the Bhagavatam we find:

 

nama-sankirtanam yasya

sarva-papa-pranashanam

pranamo duhkha-samanas

tam namami harim param

 

"Krishna's Holy Name can relieve us from all undesirable sinfulness, all filthy characteristics, and all miseries. Let us all bow down to Him."

 

In the Brihan-naradiya Purana it is said:

 

harer nama harer nama

harer namaiva kevalam

kalau nasty eva nasty eva

nasty eva gatir anyatha

 

"In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy the only means of deliverance is chanting the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way."

 

According to the Vedic scriptures, the method for attaining self-realization is chanting hari-nama, the Lord's name. Manufacturing speculative mantras and gobbly-gook will bring no spiritual benefit to us. Only the chaitanya-rasa-vigraha of Krishna's name will deliver our soul.

 

The name of Krishna is so transcendentally powerful that even unconscious chanting can protect one from all difficulties:

 

apannah samsritim ghoram

yan-nama vivasho grnan

tatah sadyo vimucyeta

yad bibheti svayam bhayam

 

"Living beings who are entangled in the complicated meshes of birth and death can be freed immediately by even unconsciously chanting the holy name of Krishna, which is feared by fear personified."

 

Chanting Lord Krishna's names is the highest expression of love for God:

 

nama-sankirtanam proktam

krishnasya prema sampadi

balistham sadhanam srestham

paramakrasa-mantra-vat

 

"It is said that chanting the holy name is a great treasure of love for Lord Krishna. It is the best and most powerful spiritual practice. It is like the best mantra."

 

 

It is the Supreme Energy.

 

 

Every energy has an energetic source. Krishna is the shaktiman, the possessor of energy.

 

 

And all rivers, ultimately and inevitably, has to reach the Ocean.

 

 

Some rivers dry up before reaching the ocean. Mental speculation on the path of self realization leads one away from the ultimate goal.

[Avinash]

It is true that many Muslim invaders in the past did many wrong things to India. But, why should the present Muslims be punished for that? Some people say that they are setting things right. So, somebody does something wrong and you they somebody else. This is how they are setting things right. I find this completely illogical.

 

I am not saying that if some Muslims do wrong, you should always forgive. I understand that they may take advantage if they are always forgiven. If you want to punish them, then punish. But punish only those who did wrong.

 

In Godhra some Muslims killed some Hindus inside a train. Those Muslims should be caught and hanged. But whom did the Hindus kill in revenge? Did they really kill the same Muslims who were responsible for Godhra carnage? No. They killed many innocent Muslims.

 

I am not saying that only Hindus are killing innocent Muslims. Muslims also kill innocent Hindus. Some Muslims kill innocent Hindus. Then Hindus kill innocent Muslims to take revenge. Then again Muslims kill innocent Hindus to take revenge. This cycle continues. But when is this cycle going to end?

 

Why is it that revenge is not taken on those who did wrong but on those who are innocent? This is either because the culprits are long dead or they cannot be found. Somebody has to be punished. Therefore innocent people are caught and murdered. I remember a story which I had read in my school days. Somebody had to be hanged. But the loop of the rope proved to be too big for him. So, the king ordered that some fat person be found and hanged. I bet that these Hindus and Muslims who are killing each other will laugh at the foolishness of the king. But they are indulging in the same foolish activity. In many schools a teacher punishes all the students of a classroom if he/she is not able to find out which student did the mischief. This is also foolishness.

 

It is really a matter of shame that people are very happy restricting their personalities.

When there is some fight between two groups of people in India one of who are Hindus and the other Muslims, then people forget that they are all Indians. They think of themselves as Hindus and Muslims. When there is some fight between forward caste Hindus and backward caste Hindus, then they forget that they are Hindus; they think in terms of forward caste and backward caste. When there is fight between persons of two forward castes, then they even forget that they are forward castes. Now they think of the castes to which they belong. People have made circles around themselves and they are happy restricting themselves within those circles. At every opportunity, they decrease the radii of these circles thus restricting themselves further. The government is also responsible for it to a large extent because they are dividing people by having different laws for people of different religions, and by considering castes in the matters of employment and promotions.

 

How long are we going to restrict ourselves? When will we expand our horizons?

 

[anveshan]

First of all, Sanatana Dharma is the only secular philosophy

A more secular religion or philosophy I have never come across. It absorbed all streams, like an Ocean ought to do.

Incorporated into it is diverse school of thought: Dvaita, Advaita, Monotheism, Polytheism, Vaishnava, Shiiva cults,

Samkhya, Vaisheshika and Buddhist schools. And you can see a thread of unifying force through the diverse schools.

 

And is tolerance a weakness? Think of this.. the Hindus paying tax for being a Hindu in his on land! That kind of tolerance is a weakness. That tolerance made Karnavati Ahmedabad, Ram Temple Babri Masjid. If a Krishna was there, it could never have happened. Tolerance should not make us inactive and indifferent.

 

Tolerance may mean, for eg., the followers of alien philosophies are allowed to practice peacefully. They can

teach or preach. But no conversions by force, allurement or exploitation.

 

=anveshanam=

[Guest guest]

Where can read about them?