Tripurari Maharaja

[theist]

I have noticed that Triprari Maharaja is being quoted by, or referrenced to, different special interest groups to add legititmency to their positons. From woman taking sannyasa to the supposed "third gender". Also his offering an English translation to the Gita.

 

Are his views being taken out of context? Is he the victim of guilt by association? Is he being treated unfairly?

 

I bring this up because I have noticed in my mind I am starting to see him as being a little too quick and radical to be suggesting/making such changes. I become alarmed at noticing my mind developing such an opinion because I know nothing about his actual views on these subjects aside from a quote here and there which themselves could be taken in different ways.

 

I believe the mind should be stalked relentlessly and false ideas should not be allowed to take root and if they have taken root they should be pulled.Especially in regards to such elevated individuals as he.

 

What does Tripurari actually teach on gay unions and other topics?

 

Recently on beliefnet I was called a "bible thumper", "fire and brimestone preacher" for posting Prabhupada's quote on homosexuals found in the SB where the demons are born from Brahma's buttocks. This from someone who is following/working with Tripurari.

 

What's up here?

[paul108]

"Recently on beliefnet I was called a "bible thumper", "fire and brimestone preacher" for posting Prabhupada's quote on homosexuals found in the SB where the demons are born from Brahma's buttocks. "

 

I would take that as a compliment.

 

Hare Krishna

[theist]

Yeah Paul, what was strange is that it came from a disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

Posted by BDas on beliefnet

2/8/03 2:29 AM 15 out of 21

 

Prabhupada’s statements regarding homosexuality come from the particular cultural background and worldview of a 19th century religious Bengali gentleman. Until recent times a negative view of homosexuality was accepted almost universally among religious clergy and lay people alike. His words sound particularly harsh in modern times but to understand Prabhupada they should be taken in context with other things he wrote as well as in consideration of the way he treated his disciples and people in general.

 

For example Prabhupada used the word demonic in relation to everything that was prohibited in scripture. Indeed Gita describes divine and demonic natures and states that those who do not follow scriptural advice are considered to be (asura) or of demonic nature. Thus in Gita this word refers to sinners and Prabhupada used the word (demonic) to describe those that transgress scriptural laws. In his vernacular the promiscuous were (demonic), extra-marital and pre-marital affairs were (demonic), those who drank or took drugs were (demonic), those who ate meat were (demonic) and even those who forgot God were (demonic). In almost all religious cultures both homosexuality and promiscuity are not allowed therefore in Gita and Biblical terms both are demonic or sinful.

 

Everyone in the world who was not by scriptural definition a saint or becoming a saint is according to Gita influenced by the demonic nature. So as Christians use the word sinner Prabhupada used the word demonic as this was common in the religious culture he was raised in. But how did Prabhupada treat all these demonic persons he met in the west? The answer is with love and respect. So much so that many became his disciples and loved him dearly in return. Prabhupada had disciples who were homosexuals but in those days there were few homosexuals who had come out and there was no gay movement to speak of. Now these homosexual disciples are coming out and still they love Prabhupada regardless of his stand on this issue. How is that possible?. One answer is that Prabhupada loved them dearly regardless of their sins. Other than that answer I would refer you to the Gay and Lesbian Vaisnava Association website for answers.

 

Someone said, Hate the sin not the sinner and he who is without sin should cast the first stone.

Rather than just mouthing quotes, followers of Prabhupada should try to understand his love for humanity regardless of their sins (demonic nature). If they do this and try to show a little of that love people of all natures will gain respect for Prabhupada and his message. After all Prabhupada said that example is better than precept. /BDas

[Guest guest]

Posted by theist on beliefnet

2/8/03 4:47 AM 16 out of 21

 

Bdas,

 

There is truth is what you say. There is also a watering down of that truth.

 

You say Prabhupada was speaking from the cultural mind space of a past generation and an old fashioned culture. I am hearing this alot lately, trying to show Prabhupada as a holder of some quaint ideas and he was just behind the times. I beg to differ. He was speaking from a Krishna Conscious platform. In the verse above he is giving his purport to an incident that was at the very beginning of this creation, concerning Brahma's being attacked. Are you saying that things were like that from that early morning of Brahmaji's day up until Srila Prabhupada left his body and now have suddenly changed?

 

Are the basic facts of gender relationships so malleable? I think not.

 

Yes there are so many things in society and within our own pysche that are demoniac. That is understood. Homosexuality is one of them. Instead of trying to pacify peoples deviant habits it is best to speak the truth plainly and honestly and still accept them. Not change your guru's teaching trying to make their minds feel better.

 

That is a very PC approach perhaps but not very KC.

 

I remember when Up____ came out to me. I was in shock but I still considered him a friend. But he always knew what I thought of his lifestyle. And he appreciated the honesty.

 

I'm no Brahmin by any stretch of the word but I know honesty is the best policy.

 

Just see this person has posted such things about Prabhupada. "He is homophobic and was showing his own demonic mind etc." Such foul talk towards Srila Prabhupada. My objection is not that he is acting as a homosexual but rather the way he speaks about Prabhupada.

 

Beter to tell someone right off that they are not really homosexuals but rather they are spiritsouls and that homosexuality is just a temporary behavior. Once someone sees that they won't be prone to such aparadha as above.

 

Why in God's name you are promoting galva is beyond me.

 

Everyone should be welcome at Prabhupada's temples and in the KC movement. If that wasn't the case Prabhupada would never have come to this sinful Western world to begin with.

 

But like the rest of us the homosexuals should understand that we have to give up attachments to our past sinful life. Such as it was with my hedonistic heterosexual lifestyle. In the begining that may be too difficult but in time one will have the spiritual strength to do it. And they will, unless of course someone has lead them to believe that homosexuality and true sadhana-bhakti are compatable.

 

Please don't feel the need to reinvent his instructions. All this pressure to change his words and teaching is just a Western disease.

 

Be well,

Hare Krsna

theist

 

 

[Guest guest]

Posted by BDas on beliefnet

2/9/03 4:57 PM 18 out of 21

 

Misusing Quotes From Srila Prabhupada! By Amara dasa

 

Dear fellow devotees and followers of Srila Prabhupada,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and all Vaishnavas!

I have been collecting quotes from His Divine Grace that are commonly misused to discriminate against women and minorities. These quotes concern relative social and bodily issues that have nothing to do with the spiritual nature of the soul.

 

[They are frequently taken completely out of context and delivered in a fashion that is both mean-spirited and ill motivated. The result has been that many sincere people and prospective devotees are completely turned off to the Krsna consciousness movement and given a poor impression of Srila Prabhupada.]

 

As society continues to evolve in a way that accepts diversity, minimizes bodily distinctions and rejects bigotry, we must try to present Vedic culture as the all-embracing society it actually was. We must also present Srila Prabhupada as the loving and compassionate man that his own life exemplified---a man who saw all living beings equally as spiritual parts and parcels of God. When we instead misuse his quotes and religious scriptures to exclude, oppress and demonize other groups of people, I think it is fair to say that we have veered off the intended course and are endangering our own spiritual foundation.

I normally do not take interest in these types of quotes; in fact, I would rather that they were not even made public. However, since they are being misused to hurt others and, after all, Srila Prabhupada did say them, I am throwing them out on the table for open discussion. There are some devotees who relish these quotes and use them constantly in their preaching. I have to hear them all the time myself, as a member of a minority group, and they give me much pain. I am not pained because I am a minority, but because my own spiritual master's words are being misused to limit and demean me as a human being.

The subject of our movement's slowness to evolve in certain areas (e.g. attitudes towards women, gay people, etc.) is something that concerns me greatly. The core Vaishnava truths all have to do with the spirit soul, and everything else changes with time. It always has and always will. Srila Prabhupada presented the essential truth and adapted the outward details to a certain degree according to time and circumstance. This has been done by all great acaryas throughout the ages. Had he not passed away several decades ago he might well have instituted other social changes to the movement. Who knows? The world now is vastly different (in certain ways) from the world he grew up in.

I know one thing: Any religious movement that remains inexorably rooted in some past era becomes extinct. There are many examples. Krsna consciousness must always remain dynamic and adaptable to the times. Let us therefore focus and preach on Srila Prabhupada's essential and timeless spiritual teachings. We should not dwell upon relative social statements that may change with time. Most importantly, we should not misuse those statements to vehemently put forth our own personal prejudices--- in a manner devoid of love--- which only succeeds in discouraging others from the path of bhakti-yoga. Jaya Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

[Guest guest]

Posted by theist on beliefnet

2/9/03 5:12 PM 19 out of 21

 

In other words lets ignore his plain spoken and crystal clear words on the subject in order to cling on to our material attachments.

 

As I have had this conversation with Amara directly before I feel no need to have it again with him through Bdas who appears to be acting as his proxy. What to speak of those who feel they can speak offensively towards His Divine Grace.

 

When Prabhupada says homosexuality is not for any sane man, I take it as a very simple and clear statement. You mat not like it but there it is. Deal with it friends.

 

Those listening in will decide for themselves if the authority is Bhaktivedanta or this homosexual faction.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

[Guest guest]

Posted by BDas on beliefnet

2/9/03 5:48 PM 20 out of 21

 

[They are frequently taken completely out of context and delivered in a fashion that is both mean-spirited and ill motivated. The result has been that many sincere people and prospective devotees are completely turned off to the Krsna consciousness movement and given a poor impression of Srila Prabhupada.]

 

This thread is an example of exactly what the paragraph cited above is talking about. We start with a gentleman who has a favorable impression of Krishna consciousness and although he doesn’t consider himself a member regularly attends functions, chants, and according to his understanding presents the philosophy and even the mantra to others in a favorable way.

 

He writes: "In my temple, the Hare Krishna temple functions as a wonderful westernized Hindu temple. We have worship of Murtis. We have a mix of Indian, White, Black and Hispanic devotees. We operate in English while still reading texts and prayers in Sanskrit.The Hare Krishna movement traces its origins through Sri Caitanya 500 years ago. It is a Hindu lineage. Its practice is chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare HareHare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.Devotees are encouraged to say 16 rounds of the mantra.They are enjoined to stay clear of intoxicants, illicit sex and be strict vegetarians. The cooking and serving of prasadam (food offered to Krishna) is the other pillar of the faith. To me, as I said, Hare Krishnas are Vaisnavite Hindus successfully transpanted into a Western context and language."

 

Then a Hare Krishna fundamentalist in a style similar to that of a bible thumping Christian throws quotes from Prabhupada at him that no modern liberal thinker would appreciate. The result is that the devotee by his so-called preaching actually turns a favorable person into an unfavorable one.

 

Fortunately in this case the person is familiar enough with devotees to know that this particular “great preacher” doesn’t represent every devotee in the Hare Krishna movement. (Thank God) So perhaps in spite of this unfortunate encounter he may be broadminded enough to continue to chant and attend temple functions.

 

Prabhupada preached against a lot of things but he had the realization and bhava (love) to back them up.

People could perceive his bhava and thus they were able to assimilate and understand in context his sometimes-harsh critiques. Others in parrot like fashion think they can hurl fire and brimstone quotes like the Christians do and they think they will influence people to appreciate Krishna consciousness. But here in print we see the result of their heartless presentation.

 

Influencing people requires understanding the mentality of the audience and presenting the philosophy according to time and circumstance. Prabhupada said a preacher need not conform to stereotype. He must present the message according to the times. When devotees went to the Middle East to preach Prabhupada said to tell the Arabs they could continue to eat meat and believe in the Koran. Just try to introduce the Hare Krishna Mantra and what you can of the philosophy of Mahaprabhu.

 

Throwing around harsh quotes from Prabhupada will get one no-where in presenting Krishna consciousness to people of this modern world of tolerance and diversity. Prabhupada said judge by the result. What was the result here? /BDas

 

 

[Guest guest]

Posted by theist on beliefnet

2/9/03 8:00 PM 21 out of 21

 

Actually this was the start of the thread. Icarus580

11/14/02 6:37 PM 1 out of 20

 

Namaste,

I am a Hindu and was curious what the stance of ISKON is on homosexuality. Also, what are the similarities and differences between "mainstream" Hindus and the Hare Krishnas?

Thanks,

Gadhadhar Das

(Jason0

I answered by quoting Srila Prabhupada's qords verbatim (post # 11).Srila Prabhupada is the founder acarya of ISKCON. Therefore his words are the authoritative statements on ISKCON"S position. Gadhardha das

didn't ask for galva's positon.

 

Bdas seems to not like that. Oh well. You can demonize me all you like and I can't object, for a demon I am. But Prabhupada's words still remain no matter how you try to twist them.

 

Everyone is welcome at Lord Krsna's temple. But there is no need to try and pretend homosexuality is an OK behavior.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hari Bol Theist/Maitreya,

 

The first post of this thread you spoke about your own mind and your misgivings regarding some of the 'special interest' groups using or misusing quotes of Tripurari Maharaja to push their agendas. You also voiced a genuine feeling for wanting to know what his actual stance on various issues is.

 

You live in the bay area so I suggest that you seek to attend one of his programs so that you can have his darshan and address your doubts to him in person. Agnideva and his family have recently relocated to Santa Rosa and are hosting a program once a month with Tripurari Maharaja. If you are interested I can get you more specific information. Brahma dasa also has been holding fairly regular sangas at his house in San Francisco. These have been suspended recently due to some changes in Brahma's living situation, but I understand that the programs will be started again soon.

 

Brahma dasa is functioning as the Sanga editor for Tripurari Maharaja and I feel he does a very good job represeting the spirit of his teachings. Guru Maharaja's emphasis is on genuine sincere spiritual practice. He is against hypocrisy and advocates honesty with oneself in terms of one's progress in spiritual life (in other words a genuine and honest assessment of where one is on the map) as well as honesty with others.

 

Krsna told Arjuna that by experiencing a higher taste oneself one naturally gives up lower tastes. This is a great secret in spiritual life. Common sense dictates that every devotee try to present Krsna consciousness in such a way that others will be inspired to take up devotional practices themselves. If we become an obstacle to someone taking up devotional practices because of our dogmatic presentation we do no one any good.

 

According to the person and the circumstance an expert preacher will deliver the message such that it will inspire that person to engage in devotional practices. Through cultivation of devotion in proximity to advanced devotees those who take up the practices will advance in devotional life and gradually their lives will be transformed from whatever they were into to lives of devotion.

 

I remember in the late seventies when I was distributing books in the airport up in Spokane Washington a man approached me and we talked for some time. He went away with a book and some encouragement. He asked me about homosexuality and the teachings and practices of Krsna consciousness in relation to homosex. I told him that the teachings will take him beyond the bodily conception and that all devotees are encouraged to transcend the dictates of the mind and body. I told him that heterosex or homosex based on pleasing the senses is to be eventually given up upon achieving a higher taste.

 

I didn't tell him he was a demon and that he must repent and change his ways or suffer the consequences. My role as a book distributor was to somehow or other inspire people to take the books, read them and, hopefully, apply the teachings in their own lives such that they began to make tangible spiritual progress.

 

Sridhara Maharaja told Prabhupada's disciples who came to him for instruction very early on that, 'Swami Maharaja and I are not one'. Every devotee is an individual. Srila Prabhupada did many things differently from his Prabhpada yet he always claimed, and rightly so, that his success if he had any was only due to the fact that he followed his Guru Maharaja's instructions without deviation.

 

Time, place and circumstance will dictate to an advanced devotee how to present the message such that people are inspired to take up devotional practices. The goal of a devotee is to help others in their march towards divinity. Each person is unique, what will be helpful to one will not be so to another.

 

Tripurari Swami is advocating essential spirituality. He is opposed to fanatical fundamentalist preaching and his presentation speaks for itself in this regard. He is trying to enthuse devotees to become sincere practicioners themselves and thereby become examples and inspirations to others. Simply gathering facts and then going about beating others up with 'siddhanta' is not essential spirituality. Essential spirituality is putting the teachings into practice sincerely and seeking to encourage others to take them up according to their eligibility. Preaching to others isn't about showing them that your right and that your stance can be supported with quotes from a book. It is about sharing your heart with others and helping to create an interest in them such that they are inspired to positive action.

 

Anyway, I hope I have addressed some of your issues here in this post - Guru Maharaja is an advocate of Krsna consciousness - nothing else.

 

Krsna conciousness transcends the bodily conception. There is no such thing as brahmacharini in vedas. Yet Srila Prabhpada instituted this 'ashrama' based on his experience and understanding of western culture and the mindset he encountered in his preaching. The very idea of Gaudiya Sannyasi's was an innovation of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta meant to facilitate the preaching. It may seem radical and 'devious' to some with limited conceptions to suggest that there may be a time when it is appropriate to have women sannyasi's, but I suggest to you that this is only because they are caught up in form thinking rather than understanding what is essential.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said that he was prepared to serve meat to his guests in order to entice them to take up Krsna consciousness. Bhaktivinoda Thakur had to prepare ganga with his own hands for the 'pujari' in order to maintain the temple at the yogapitha. How radical, really, is the suggestion that it may be appropriate for the modern presentation in certain circumstances to give sannyasa to women? Given the ideal that Krsna consciousness for everyone will we not have to allow for some innovations and adjustments in order to encourage a broader participation?

 

Swami Tripurari is a devout follower of his own Guru Maharaja, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami and as such he is presenting the same message he received. He is also using his intelligence to re-present the same message in a new and novel way according to his own realizations. This is called dynamic spiritual life. If you look closely you will see the essential message is unchanged, but the style of presentation is unique. Bhaktivinoda Thakur had one style, Bhaktisiddhanta yet another and Srila Prabhupada also had his own unique stlye of presentation. The impetus behind all of them was to spread Krsna consciousness to every town and village.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[stonehearted]

I understand theist’s alarm here. How we relate to other devotees’ realizations about how to preach depends on our own experience and realization. For many years I had heard about Srila Sridhar Maharaja’s so-called attempts to denigrate Srila Prabhupada and undermine our faith in our guru. Then, when I was able to read for myself what he said in context, especially in the context of his long, intimate, loving relationship with Srila Prabhupada, I saw the extent to which I had been cheated.

 

Nowadays we hear so many objections to the way Tripurari Maharaja preaches, allegations that he’s changing the philosophy, that he thinks he’s so advanced he can adjust any details. Those of us who have actually read his work and spoken with him know how mistaken such worries are. In fact, many of his godbrothers and godsisters who are close to ISKCON also take Tripurari Maharaja’s counsel because they appreciate his presentation of essential Krishna consciousness.

 

Does he say some things differently from the way Srila Prabhupada did? You betcha! Audarya-lila already addressed the differences in style rather clearly. We could also point out that whoever your favorite preacher in ISKCON is also speaks differently from Srila Prabhupada (although I suppose we may also still find some who still try to imitate many of Srila Prabhupada’s distinctive mannerisms) and acts differently, too. They are different persons, just as Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaj are different persons with different personal styles. I haven’t seen you express similar concern for Radhanath Maharaja’s ecstatic dancing, scenic-route discussions of Chaitanya lila, or insistence that his disciples in Bombay finish their college degrees before they move into the temple (Srila Prabhupada dealt with college quite differently in most cases). Have I missed your postings worrying about Bhaktitirtha Maharaja’s IFAST or his African-prince getup?

 

But you worry that Tripurari Maharaja’s followers and friends won’t condemn gay people a priori, or that he responded to a question about gender and renunciation honestly according to his understanding. If you read carefully, you won’t find that he says that homosexual behavior is good. All you’ll find is his trying to connect with people as spiritual entities rather than primarily in terms of any sinful activity they may have become attached to. And I’m so grateful that Srila Prabhupada did the same with us! I’ve told many times of Srila Prabhupada’s meeting with Aniruddha at the Honolulu airport in 1974. Although Aniruddha may not have been “following” and was wearing cutoff shorts and an earring, Srila Prabhupada looked at us and remarked, “In Los Angeles temple, he is the beginning.” All you’ll find is Brahma encouraging Amara in his efforts to get devotees to treat gay people as though they were human beings with souls identical with ours, just as we treat marijuana-smokers, beer drinkers, womanizers, and hamburger eaters. (Think these aren’t demoniac activities? Try again. And, by the way, you’ll find similar appreciation from Bhaktitirtha Swami.) There’s no endorsement here of the “gay lobby’s” agenda. Rather, it’s just devotees doing what we’ve always done, what our spiritual master did with us: encouraging everyone to integrate the practices of Krishna consciousness to the extent they are able, beginning with the most essential, according to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu: associating with devotees (but who wants to hang out with people who treat him like pig s--t?), chanting the holy names of Krishna, hearing about Krishna from Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita, living in a sanctified environment, and serving Krishna’s Sri Murti.

 

You also worry that he dared to write a presentation of Bhagavad-gita? Srila Prabhupada did so, despite the fact the Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati previously had (despite the fact that Bhaktivinoda Thakura had before him). Tripurari Maharaja’s Bhagavad-gita grew out of an intense personal immersion in studying Bhagavad-gita. Have you read it? Most who have like it very well, including a few ISKCON gurus.

 

I could go on, but you probably get my drift. I second Audarya-lila’s suggestion that you attend some of Swami’s programs, since you live in the Bay Area, see for yourself the standard of the devotees who appreciate his work, perhaps even ask him yourself the questions you’ve posed here and elsewhere. When I did so, I found him accessible, candid, and forthright. I also found more encouragement to deepen my own practice and expand my preaching than I got from just about any of my godbrothers. If you don’t find similar resonance, at least you’ll have found out first hand.

 

Your aspiring servant,

Babhru

[theist]

Hari Bol Theist/Maitreya,

 

>>The first post of this thread you spoke about your own mind and your misgivings regarding some of the 'special interest' groups using or misusing quotes of Tripurari Maharaja to push their agendas. You also voiced a genuine feeling for wanting to know what his actual stance on various issues is.<<

 

Yes, I saw the results of one of SP's disciples get unfairly ostracized and condemned in the 70's. Many creepers were crushed in the world of gossip, rumor and misinformation. I wish to avoid being caught up in such a thing.

 

>>You live in the bay area so I suggest that you seek to attend one of his programs so that you can have his darshan and address your doubts to him in person. Agnideva and his family have recently relocated to Santa Rosa and are hosting a program once a month with Tripurari Maharaja. If you are interested I can get you more specific information. Brahma dasa also has been holding fairly regular sangas at his house in San Francisco. These have been suspended recently due to some changes in Brahma's living situation, but I understand that the programs will be started again soon.<<

 

Thank you for the info. Actually I went to sanga web site and found no clear answers to what I think are very straight forward questions. I distrust vaqueness in answers no matter how flowery or lengthy the answers. I can appreciate some of the subtleties however.

 

I have asked this before and never received a straight answer.

 

Q.There is talk in and around ISKCON about recognizing gay marriages or unions.Recognition is a tacit sanction. What exactly is Tripurai's view on such?

 

>>Brahma dasa is functioning as the Sanga editor for Tripurari Maharaja and I feel he does a very good job represeting the spirit of his teachings. Guru Maharaja's emphasis is on genuine sincere spiritual practice. He is against hypocrisy and advocates honesty with oneself in terms of one's progress in spiritual life (in other words a genuine and honest assessment of where one is on the map) as well as honesty with others.<<

 

That's good. Who would argue against honesty.

 

>>Krsna told Arjuna that by experiencing a higher taste oneself one naturally gives up lower tastes. This is a great secret in spiritual life. Common sense dictates that every devotee try to present Krsna consciousness in such a way that others will be inspired to take up devotional practices themselves. If we become an obstacle to someone taking up devotional practices because of our dogmatic presentation we do no one any good.<<

 

Dogma, there is an interesting word. We all know its wrong to be dogmatic. Or is it?

Main Entry: dog·ma

Pronunciation: 'dog-m&, 'däg-

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural dogmas also dog·ma·ta /-m&-t&/

Etymology: Latin dogmat-, dogma, from Greek, from dokein to seem &#8212;more at DECENT

1638

1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds

2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

 

Let's take number two. The inquiry that started this round was from someone specifically asking what ISKCON's position was on homosexuality.Not galva's position but ISKCON's. I take it that I am on solid ground by quoting Srila Prabhupada's clear statement on the matter.His views are not dead doctrine. The question wasn't how should homosexuals be treated in ISKCON, rather it was a question on doctrine. Now Brahma das may take that as fire and brimstone preaching of the intolerance of the past but that's a value judgement on what he thinks is my attitude while offering that quote.As well as a judgement on what platform SP was writing from. It is in fact ISKCON"S stated position on the matter right from SP's purport that i not only referenced but copied and pasted in. No adulteration no brimestone, just short and sweet.

 

Now since the criticism came from Brahma das and he is linked up and representing Tripurai Maharaja the next logicl question is on Tripurari's view. I am questioning as to his view and not attacking it. How could I when I don't even know what it is.

 

 

>>According to the person and the circumstance an expert preacher will deliver the message such that it will inspire that person to engage in devotional practices. Through cultivation of devotion in proximity to advanced devotees those who take up the practices will advance in devotional life and gradually their lives will be transformed from whatever they were into to lives of devotion.

 

I remember in the late seventies when I was distributing books in the airport up in Spokane Washington a man approached me and we talked for some time. He went away with a book and some encouragement. He asked me about homosexuality and the teachings and practices of Krsna consciousness in relation to homosex. I told him that the teachings will take him beyond the bodily conception and that all devotees are encouraged to transcend the dictates of the mind and body. I told him that heterosex or homosex based on pleasing the senses is to be eventually given up upon achieving a higher taste.

 

I didn't tell him he was a demon and that he must repent and change his ways or suffer the consequences.<<

 

That's nice. I don't call people demons either. I tell them they are spiritsoul. I can make a distinction between the person and a particular behavior. But if the nature of a particular activity comes up I won't soft sell it either.

 

You mention higher taste and I agree. But certain behaviors prevent us from really relishing that higher taste. There is a transition period where one is tempted and is expected to excercise his will and resist that temptation on his way to that higher taste. If you read Prabhupada's purport to Bg 2.59 he says "... restrictions are there for the less intelligent neophytes in the spiritual advancement of life, but such restrictions are only good until one actually has a taste for Krsna Consciousness."

 

So I see a period before that taste becomes strong enough to carry us when we may have an inner battle on our hands sometime. We need to know what those restricitons are. Do we tell people to stop slaughtering cows or wait until they love Krsna and then they will just lose their taste for flesh? You can say both.

 

We can't just try to run on sentiment. We also need an understanding of the intermediary process of purification. We need to use intelligence and force of will sometimes.

 

For instance I haven't smoked pot in decades but not long ago it came in my mind that I wanted some. That means I am not fixed in a taste for KC. But I must still say no to the desire and just tolerate it because I know if I give in to it it will only prolonge that day when real taste may arise. Glad someone told me smoking dope was detremental to the health of my spiritual practice.

 

I think it best to just speak the truth in a way that they feel they are accepted, and help them advance just as others are helping us advance.

 

 

>>My role as a book distributor was to somehow or other inspire people to take the books, read them and, hopefully, apply the teachings in their own lives such that they began to make tangible spiritual progress. <<

 

That's good but what if they read in that book that homosex is a demonic practice and not for any sane man? Or do you want to take that out of Prabhupada's SB purport? That is a serious question as people are proposing such things.

 

>>Sridhara Maharaja told Prabhupada's disciples who came to him for instruction very early on that, 'Swami Maharaja and I are not one'. Every devotee is an individual. Srila Prabhupada did many things differently from his Prabhpada yet he always claimed, and rightly so, that his success if he had any was only due to the fact that he followed his Guru Maharaja's instructions without deviation.

 

Time, place and circumstance will dictate to an advanced devotee how to present the message such that people are inspired to take up devotional practices. The goal of a devotee is to help others in their march towards divinity. Each person is unique, what will be helpful to one will not be so to another.<<

 

I agree. That is the difference between imitating and following. But there are perimeters. What are they? Where is the line? I don't see contradicting SP's directions on gender issues as remainingg within that boundary.

 

>>Tripurari Swami is advocating essential spirituality. He is opposed to fanatical fundamentalist preaching and his presentation speaks for itself in this regard.<<

 

OK. But you know that can also be imitated and not followed. One can take the language style of Tripurai, a similar tone and mannerisms, and be just as judgemental and self-righteous and more than those to whom one one is preaching to.

 

A good example is if someone positions themselves as the most liberal, magnanimus and all inclusive and in so doing end up falsley condemning others who they declare to less so.

 

That is not directed to you Audarya or anyone else. But we have to be careful in how and why we choose to juxtaposition ourselves in relation to others.

 

>> He is trying to enthuse devotees to become sincere practicioners themselves and thereby become examples and inspirations to others. Simply gathering facts and then going about beating others up with 'siddhanta' is not essential spirituality.<<

 

That's good. But as I mentioned above someone can take that 'siddhanta' and turn around and try to beat someone up with it. That also is not essential spirituality. See my point?

 

>>Essential spirituality is putting the teachings into practice sincerely and seeking to encourage others to take them up according to their eligibility. Preaching to others isn't about showing them that your right and that your stance can be supported with quotes from a book. It is about sharing your heart with others and helping to create an interest in them such that they are inspired to positive action.<<

 

But don't confuse showing from abook with a dry dogmatic approach. It may be it may not be. to know you have to look to the motive of the presenter.

 

>>Anyway, I hope I have addressed some of your issues here in this post - Guru Maharaja is an advocate of Krsna consciousness - nothing else.<<

 

Thank you for taking the time.

 

>>Krsna conciousness transcends the bodily conception. There is no such thing as brahmacharini in vedas. Yet Srila Prabhpada instituted this 'ashrama' based on his experience and understanding of western culture and the mindset he encountered in his preaching. The very idea of Gaudiya Sannyasi's was an innovation of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta meant to facilitate the preaching. It may seem radical and 'devious' to some with limited conceptions to suggest that there may be a time when it is appropriate to have women sannyasi's, but I suggest to you that this is only because they are caught up in form thinking rather than understanding what is essential.<<

 

Yes and must also be remembered that you can stretch something to the point to where it breaks. 'Innovation' can also be deviation.

 

>>Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said that he was prepared to serve meat to his guests in order to entice them to take up Krsna consciousness.<<

 

Hope you are not suggesting that we have to procure young boys to get some gay guy to chant. Sorry that was an attempt at some levity.

 

 

>>Bhaktivinoda Thakur had to prepare ganga with his own hands for the 'pujari' in order to maintain the temple at the yogapitha. How radical, really, is the suggestion that it may be appropriate for the modern presentation in certain circumstances to give sannyasa to women? Given the ideal that Krsna consciousness for everyone will we not have to allow for some innovations and adjustments in order to encourage a broader participation?<<

 

Or perhaps something outwardly similar to sannyasya but yet tailored to the female frame and nature. Like white sari and chant and preach all day.

 

>>Swami Tripurari is a devout follower of his own Guru Maharaja, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami and as such he is presenting the same message he received. He is also using his intelligence to re-present the same message in a new and novel way according to his own realizations. This is called dynamic spiritual life. If you look closely you will see the essential message is unchanged, but the style of presentation is unique. Bhaktivinoda Thakur had one style, Bhaktisiddhanta yet another and Srila Prabhupada also had his own unique stlye of presentation. The impetus behind all of them was to spread Krsna consciousness to every town and village.<<

 

Thank you for your time Audarya-lila prabhu,

 

Hare Krsna,

theist

[stonehearted]

theist asked, in a light mood: Hope you are not suggesting that we have to procure young boys to get some gay guy to chant. Sorry that was an attempt at some levity.

 

I'm not sure it's really funny or, ignoring your nyuk-nyuks, just argumentum ad absurdam. And I don't wnat to get us off track here, but there is a clear distinction between pedophilia and homosexuality that should not be ignored.

 

Back on track, though, if the question is "What's ISKCON's doctrine on homosexuality?" we have to be open to the possibility that it may not fit into one quotation. If we just, in Brahma's words, throw the quotation at someone without a context or any discussion, we may actually mislead them. Actually, when I read the teachings of Lord Chaitanya, I don't see any verses about homosexuality. In Bhaktivinoda's Dasa-mula Tattva, which sums up Mahaprabhu's entire philosophy from bottom to top, I don't see anything about homosexuality, nor in Jaiva Dharma, in which the entire philosophy of the gosvamis is also presented in narrative form, from base to the summit. If we systematically read the Bhagavatam, we see that everything, including religion, has to be rejected if we want to attain the summum bonum. The Bhagavat's philosphy is not about mundane morality, nor about cosmology, nor politics, or any of the things we sometimes get excited about.

 

I think that Brahma's post was meant to point out the ultimate futility of using isolated quotations out of context, especially from conversations and purports, to understand the whole of Krishna conscious tattva. So if you want to acutally understand Brahma's attitude toward your post on Beliefnet, you may need to look beyond the smarting ego and try to discern what his motive may have been (hint: It may be richer than you seem to think). And if you really want to understand why so many devotees, both new and very experienced, find his company inspiring, you may have to examine their motives in the context of their entire devotional careers. An alternative: actually examine his character and work yourself.

[theist]

Amogha: In one high school here they asked the question whether we accept homosexuality. And I said,Of course not. This is only a perversion. And they said, This is nature's way to stop overpopulation, because there won't be any children. So much foolish.

 

Prabhupäda: How degraded the human society is becoming. And the children, they are discussing.

 

 

[theist]

Actually I never meant to get involved in a long discussion. i was seeking to know the answer to this. Does anyone know?

 

Q.There is talk in and around ISKCON about recognizing gay marriages or unions.Recognition is a tacit sanction. What exactly is Tripurai's view on such?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Back on track, though, if the question is "What's ISKCON's doctrine on homosexuality?" we have to be open to the possibility that it may not fit into one quotation.

 

 

Can you provide any differing quotation from prabhupad on homosexuality?

[stonehearted]

guest: Can you provide any differing quotation from prabhupad on homosexuality?

 

bob: Even if we listed all the quotations in VedaBase, what would that establish? Perhaps a good look at Srila Prabhupada's opinion of homosexual behavior. That's different, I think, from being gay. For his attitude toward gay men and women, we have his example of accepting everyone who tried to understand Krishna consciousness. He encouraged them to chant and preach according to their understanding, and when they had trouble controlling their senses, he encouraged them some more.

 

This may not be in VedaBase, but I remember a couple more things I heard from sources I considered reliable. One was that, hetero or homo, sex was just disgusting. Another is the two are like wet stool and dry stool; whatever disctinction we may make due to some superficial considerations, it's still stool. In fact, the condition of seeking gratification for the senses of the material body in denial of our eternal relationship with Krishna is the essence of "demoniac." So our TV watching (watch out, Superbowl fans!), movies, eating of food other than the Deity's remnants, et cetera ad nauseam, are all essentially demoniac activities. That's why we need to regulate our mind and senses.

 

Hmmm . . . what is ISKCON's/Prabhupada's position on drinking, or on cow slaughter? I can give you a clue about the latter. In 1972 and '73, two members of the GBC in good standing separately and completely independently told me the same thing Srila Prabhupada told them about how sinful cow slaughter is, and how sever the reaction. Although we seem to like quantitative formulas that help us "count" how sinful things are (such as 10,000 lives as a steer for evey hair on the bodies of cows we have killed) what he said was that it's so sinful that there is no release from the chain of sinful reaction, except by divine grace. But more important than a statement of doctrine regarding some relative morality is how it's practically applied. And we see that in the understanding Srila Prabhupada shared with us that Lord Chaitanya and Nityananda came to save the most fallen first.

 

So here we are; how do we snag the rest? Everything else is asara.

[stonehearted]

theist: There is talk in and around ISKCON about recognizing gay marriages or unions.Recognition is a tacit sanction. What exactly is Tripurai's view on such?

 

I have suggested you ask him. As you know, if you write Sanga, Brahma will answer. If you want to ask Swami B. V. Tripurari what exactly his view is, go ask him.

 

Let me ask you a question: Which is worse--a union of two gay men or women who, due to a desire to progress spiritually, no longer are sexually active but live together as friends, or an unmarried man and woman who live together for a while and have unrestricted sex with each other and whatever other partners strike their fancy? Is one pair more eligible for Mahaprabhu's mercy than the other? If so, based on what?

[theist]

Hey Babhru, I have no interest in answering any hypotheticals, which is worse this or that. If you don't know the answer to my simple question that's all right.

 

Someone else might. Besides you still have to provide a satisfactory answer to guest's question above.

[Guest guest]

 

I lived in many Iskcon temples in 3 different continents for the last 24 years and I'm wondering what is the fuss about it. Homosexuals and lesbians are accepted in Iskcon and they are gurus, GBCs, TP, temple commanders, grihasthas, brahmacaris, brahmacarinis.

 

Why make such fuss? Most of them did or they are doing very nice service (not counting the pedophiles) and they are integrated in the community. What is the deal? I don't get it.

[stonehearted]

theist: I have no interest in answering any hypotheticals, which is worse this or that.

 

No problem--I understand.

 

t: If you don't know the answer to my simple question that's all right.

 

I think the best answer may be to refer you to the source. You're much closer, physically, than I am.

 

t: Besides you still have to provide a satisfactory answer to guest's question above.

 

Perhaps it would have been more straightforward to begin my response with, "Probably not, but, even if we. . . ." The substance of my response would have been the same. And behind that is a question of what the motive is for asking me such a question. We type stuff on our little machines here and pretend we're having some sort of personal relationships. But that's largely nonsense, especially when so many hide behind usernames or refuse to register at all. If the relationship is not real, what sort of exhange can we actually have? Too many of us want to question the motives of steady practitioners and preachers of Krishna consciousness without establishing their own adhikara. Rather, they're content to take pot shots from behind rocks as a means for asserting their "superiority" over others. Frankly, I find it less than satisfying sometimes. Unless we can open ourselves to each other, there's no question of sadhu-sanga here.

[Guest guest]

Dear Theist,

 

No problem - you asked a sincere question and I felt that you deserved a sincere answer.

 

I don't know the answer to your more direct question that you have posed above. I suggest, as Babhru has already, that you ask Swami Tripurari himself.

 

This is really a peripheral issue and not one to get so worked up about anyway, in my own opinion. But of course, that is my opinion and you obviously have a different one.

 

I don't see anyone having a 'vedic' fire ceremony to 'sanctify' a homosexual relationship. Babhru already addressed this issue in one of his posts above I believe. Everyone needs encouragement to take up devotional practices from wherever they find themselves. That doesn't mean that one compromises the philosophy or changes the principles - it simply means that what is emphasized is what to do, not what not to do.

 

Regarding your rhetorical question about meat eating my answer is no. Not exactly the same issue or analagous to what is being discussed. I do think that there are many people that are not ready to give up meat eating but who can take up some aspects of devotional service and should definitely be encouraged to do so. Not everyone is ready to follow the four regulative principles but that does not bar them from participating in Mahaprabhu's movement.

 

I agree that restraint of the mind and senses is something one should strive for who is in an uncontrolled state but that alone will not give one a higher taste. The higher taste is gained by association with advanced souls - it is a function of their mercy and that is open to one and all.

 

First comes some faith and that is developed through association.

 

Anyway, good night and Hari Bol!

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[theist]

What is all the fuss and factions about. Some of Prabhupada's first disciples were gay. There was no need then for them to have gay "marriages".

 

Now Prabhupada makes his positon very clear. He spoke out strongly against this practice as it was starting to appear in so-called Christian churches. He indicated it wasn't real religion. So what is the real reason this is being brought up now? It just causes division.

 

Anyway it was a simple question and the future will reveal the answer. I'm not interested enough to seek out Tripurari Maharaja and pose the question to him. I know Prabhupada's positon and I am satisfied with that.

 

Hope I haven't offended anyone. Thanks to Audarya-lila, Babhru and various guests for their participation.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

[atma]

 

I just went to beliefnet to check out from where all this discusion came from and I was in shock how "copithorne?" was offending Srila Prabhupada and B Das didn't mind about it. What is going on?

Too wishy-washy for my taste. What a non-sense talking about Prabhupada's culture.

 

I don't blame Srila Prabhupada when he speaks the truth about this material world and condition. I don't think he has antiquated views at all, actually I think he is very practical and liberal. The one with the problem here is myself with all my material desires and conditionings and I'm ashamed that I'm not sincere enough to surrender.

Srila Prabhupada gave mercy to all of us, gays included, and we don't need to change the scriptures to realize it. We have to get rid of our material desires, that's all.

 

 

[stonehearted]

Perhaps tomorrow (or the next day) we can discuss something fresh, something that get to the heart of devotion.

 

Babhru