Krishna: A Mortal Man

[Guest guest]

Is is possible that he was a mortal human hero? Over the years, he became deified as God.

[anveshan]

Krishna was a great Yadava king. A king of philosophers, who re-invented and interpreted the essence of Vedas and Upanishads. More than that, he was a complete man.

 

The great Yadava has immortalized himself through the Gita.

 

Deifying something great is common human nature. Buddha who said nothing about God or gods stands deified. I have read about the story of an Egyptian Pharaoh, a great benevolent ruler, who said that there is no God and one has to lead a

good life and serve others. During his reign, the temples of Ra went empty. When he died, his subjects made him an avtar of Ra and started worshipping him!

 

'I am That', Krishna declared, says his biographer(Veda Vyasa). 'I am the Only Son', Jesus Joseph Christ declared,

says his biographers. May be or may not be. Or overzealous biographers or followers might have added those lines into it. As Rig Veda says, 'May Be or May Not Be, WHO KNOWS?'

 

 

[theist]

its possble that God came to Earth and played as a man to enchant us to His service, to Himself. We all have the experience of playing with very small children by pretending to be one of them. And while playing taking the oppurtunity to impart lessons and exchange love with them.

 

Or perhaps He incarnated into these pastimes through the mind of whoever wrote them. If God can appear in this 3rd dimesion why can He not appear through His devotees mind as a literary incarnation, as a player not the writer. Afterall the mind of a realized soul is reality whereas this 3D visible world can be said to be a product of imagination.

 

But when reading this literature we have to ask ourselves who but a realized being could possibly think and write like this?

 

Krsna is very mysterious to my mind. I just can't quite get a grasp. But Mother Yashoda could.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Krishna was a great Yadava king. A king of philosophers, who re-invented and interpreted the essence of Vedas and Upanishads.

 

 

Krishna did not "re-invent" and interpret the Upanishads. Krishna delivered the same ancient science of Yoga that was first spoken by Narayana to Surya millions of years ago. Krishna describes this in the fourth chapter of the Gita:

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

imam vivasvate yogam

proktavan aham avyayam

vivasvan manave praha

manur ikshvakave ’bravit

 

"The Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krishna, said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun-god, Vivasvan, and Vivasvan instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu in turn instructed it to Ikshavaku."

 

evam parampara-praptam

imam rajarshayo viduh

sa kaleneha mahata

yogo nashtah parantapa

 

"This supreme science was thus received through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears to be lost."

 

sa evayam maya te ’dya

yogah proktah puratanah

bhakto ’si me sakha ceti

rahasyam hy etad uttamam

 

"That very ancient science of the relationship with the Supreme is today told by Me to you because you are My devotee as well as My friend and can therefore understand the transcendental mystery of this science."

 

Thus it is clear that the knowledge of Gita is an ancient science existing in human society from the time of Manu, the father of mankind. Krishna did not manufacture some new speculative school of thought (i.e. "re-invent" the Upanishads). He delivered the same ancient teachings He originally taught to the sun god, Surya, millions of years before.

 

 

More than that, he was a complete man.

 

 

This is a nonsensical statement. We know of Krishna only through the scriptures that speak of Him. There is no "human" Krishna mentioned in any of these descriptions. Every single reference to Krishna states his divinity. If we choose to disregard the scriptures, then there is no reason to believe a Krishna ever existed. If we choose to accept the scriptures, then they are clear as to the divinity of Krishna.

 

Krishna Himself states His divinity throughout the Gita:

 

aham sarvasya prabhavo

mattah sarvam pravartate

iti matva bhajante mam

budha bhava-samanvitah

 

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts."

 

Krishna establishes Himself as the highest truth which sustains all existence:

 

mattah parataram nanyat

kincid asti dhananjaya

mayi sarvam idam protam

sutre mani-gana iva

 

"O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread."

 

Elsewhere Krishna states Himself to be the Paramatma in the hearts of all living entities and the compiler of the Upanishads:

 

sarvasya caham hridi sannivisto

mattah smritir jnanam apohanam ca

vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo

vedanta-krid veda-vid eva caham

 

"I am seated in everyone’s heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas."

 

In the fifteenth chapter of Gita, Krishna makes His supreme position clear. He is situated even beyond the infallible:

 

dvav imau purushau loke

ksharas cakshara eva ca

ksharah sarvani bhutani

kuta-stho ’kshara ucyate

 

"There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible, and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible."

 

uttamah purushas tv anyah

paramatmety udahrtah

yo loka-trayam avisya

bibharty avyaya ishvarah

 

"Besides these two, there is the greatest living personality, the Supreme Soul, the imperishable Lord Himself, who has entered the three worlds and is maintaining them."

 

yasmat ksharam atito ’ham

aksharad api cottamah

ato ’smi loke vede ca

prathitah purushottamah

 

"Because I am transcendental, beyond both the fallible and the infallible, and because I am the greatest, I am celebrated both in the world and in the Vedas as that Supreme Person."

 

Lord Krishna is the parama purushottama, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

In the nineth chapter of Gita, Lord Krishna explains how only foolish people consider Him to be an ordinary man:

 

avajananti mam mudha

manusim tanum asritam

param bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-maheshvaram

 

"Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be."

 

Some people see Krishna as a mortal, failing to see His param-bhavam. Lord Krishna is bhuta-maheshvara, the Supreme Lord of all that exists:

 

mayadhyakshena prakritih

suyate sa-caracaram

 

"This material nature, which is one of My energies, is working under My direction, O son of Kunti, producing all moving and nonmoving beings."

 

In the Gita, Arjuna accepts this conclusion as well:

 

arjuna uvaca

param brahma param dhama

pavitram paramam bhavan

purusham sasvatam divyam

adi-devam ajam vibhum

ahus tvam rsayah sarve

devarsir naradas tatha

asito devalo vyasah

svayam caiva bravisi me

 

"Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the ultimate abode, the purest, the Absolute Truth. You are the eternal, transcendental, original person, the unborn, the greatest. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala and Vyasa confirm this truth about You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."

 

Thus we see all great sages such as Vyasa, Narada, Asita and Devala accept this conclusion of Lord Krishna's divinity. In more recent times, great acharyas such as Madhva, Ramanuja and Shankara have all accepted Lord Krishna's divinity.

[anveshan]

 

===="avajananti mam mudha"=====

 

I am the one who consider myself a great moodha and ajnani. Because I don't know. I am a moodha vidyarthi trying to understand. And it seems I will never understand, just like my brother moodhas.

 

This moodha only said that Krishna intrepreted the essence of the vedas lucidly. Vedas came from Narayana or Brahma through the great Vivasa or Vyasa I do not know. I have no opinions for or against it. Simply because I do not know.

 

As per the vedas, I am also not entitled to know. Because only twice born ones are entitled to.

 

Vasudeva, apart from what his biographer Vyasa, said, happens to be a historical fact. Madhura, Dwaraka and Kurukshetra reminds us of that. And vedas or no vedas, Krishna lives in the hearts of the villagers of Northern India through folk songs handed over to from generation to generation. And no doubt, was great, uncomparable to any other avataras.. a complete man, with all sat, rajo, tamasic qualities of a great being.

 

This is my view, might be a foolish view.

[Guest guest]

Yes, you are a fool

[Guest guest]

 

 

As long as you think Krishna is a mortal man you will never understand.

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

In fact it is a great offense to suggest Krishna is mortal and I wish I hadn't read this topic.

[Guest guest]

JNDas, thank you for the wonderful well thought out reply. To all the sincere devotees here, forgive me for this blasphemy. I feel ashamed that a thought like this even entered my head. My apologies.

[Guest guest]

No.

but you and we all are.

that is not as bad as being a moodha.

[Guest guest]

What's a moodha?

[theist]

But then again its important that there be a way for us to express our doubts as they arise. How else can they be cleared? if we can't express them to each other then what do we do, harbor them secrectly until they pull us totally away?

 

It is another thing just to express opposing views in order to agitate. Which I don't think was the point here.

[livingentity]

Srimad Bhagavatam 3.2.10

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

 

I didn't mean to put you down personally for having doubts just pointing out you cannot understand Krishna if you think he is mortal. I didn't mean it as a personal attack on you because you are probably very sincere. Sorry if I seemed mean or anything.

[gHari]

Lord Krsna advises in Bhagavad-gita Chapter 12 Verse 5:<blockquote><center>

 

kleso 'dhikataras tesam

avyaktasakta-cetasam

avyakta hi gatir duhkham

dehavadbhir avapyate

</center>

klesah -- trouble; adhika-tarah -- very much; tesam -- of them; avyakta -- to the unmanifested; asakta -- attached; cetasam -- of those whose minds; avyakta -- toward the unmanifested; hi -- certainly; gatih -- progress; duhkham -- with trouble; deha-vadbhih -- by the embodied; avapyate -- is achieved.

 

For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.

 

PURPORT

The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jnana-yogis, and persons who are in full Krishna consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord, are called bhakti-yogis. Now, here the difference between jnana-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed. The process of jnana-yoga, although ultimately bringing one to the same goal, is very troublesome, whereas the path of bhakti-yoga, the process of being in direct service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is easier and is natural for the embodied soul. The individual soul is embodied since time immemorial. It is very difficult for him to simply theoretically understand that he is not the body. Therefore, the bhakti-yogi accepts the Deity of Krishna as worshipable because there is some bodily conception fixed in the mind, which can thus be applied. Of course, worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His form within the temple is not idol worship. There is evidence in the Vedic literature that worship may be saguna and nirguna -- of the Supreme possessing or not possessing attributes. Worship of the Deity in the temple is saguna worship, for the Lord is represented by material qualities. But the form of the Lord, though represented by material qualities such as stone, wood or oil paint, is not actually material. That is the absolute nature of the Supreme Lord.

A crude example may be given here. We may find some mailboxes on the street, and if we post our letters in those boxes, they will naturally go to their destination without difficulty. But any old box, or an imitation which we may find somewhere but which is not authorized by the post office, will not do the work. Similarly, God has an authorized representation in the Deity form, which is called arca-vigraha. This arca-vigraha is an incarnation of the Supreme Lord. God will accept service through that form. The Lord is omnipotent, all-powerful; therefore, by His incarnation as arca-vigraha He can accept the services of the devotee, just to make it convenient for the man in conditioned life.

 

So for a devotee there is no difficulty in approaching the Supreme immediately and directly, but for those who are following the impersonal way to spiritual realization the path is difficult. They have to understand the unmanifested representation of the Supreme through such Vedic literatures as the Upanisads, and they have to learn the language, understand the nonperceptual feelings, and realize all these processes. This is not very easy for a common man. A person in Krishna consciousness, engaged in devotional service, simply by the guidance of the bona fide spiritual master, simply by offering regulative obeisances unto the Deity, simply by hearing the glories of the Lord, and simply by eating the remnants of foodstuffs offered to the Lord, realizes the Supreme Personality of Godhead very easily. There is no doubt that the impersonalists are unnecessarily taking a troublesome path with the risk of not realizing the Absolute Truth at the ultimate end. But the personalist, without any risk, trouble or difficulty, approaches the Supreme Personality directly. A similar passage appears in Srimad-Bhagavatam. It is stated there that if one ultimately has to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead (this surrendering process is called bhakti), but instead takes the trouble to understand what is Brahman and what is not Brahman and spends his whole life in that way, the result is simply troublesome. Therefore it is advised here that one should not take up this troublesome path of self-realization, because there is uncertainty in the ultimate result.

 

A living entity is eternally an individual soul, and if he wants to merge into the spiritual whole, he may accomplish the realization of the eternal and knowledgeable aspects of his original nature, but the blissful portion is not realized. By the grace of some devotee, such a transcendentalist, highly learned in the process of jnana-yoga, may come to the point of bhakti-yoga, or devotional service. At that time, long practice in impersonalism also becomes a source of trouble, because he cannot give up the idea. Therefore an embodied soul is always in difficulty with the unmanifest, both at the time of practice and at the time of realization. Every living soul is partially independent, and one should know for certain that this unmanifested realization is against the nature of his spiritual blissful self. One should not take up this process. For every individual living entity the process of Krishna consciousness, which entails full engagement in devotional service, is the best way. If one wants to ignore this devotional service, there is the danger of turning to atheism. Thus the process of centering attention on the unmanifested, the inconceivable, which is beyond the approach of the senses, as already expressed in this verse, should never be encouraged at any time, especially in this age. It is not advised by Lord Krishna.

</blockquote>

gHari

[gHari]

Krsna furthers explains in Bhagavad-gita Chapter 9 Verse 4:<blockquote><center>

maya tatam idam sarvam

jagad avyakta-murtina

mat-sthani sarva-bhutani

na caham tesv avasthitah

</center>

 

maya -- by Me; tatam -- pervaded; idam -- this; sarvam -- all; jagat -- cosmic manifestation; avyakta-murtina -- by the unmanifested form; mat-sthani -- in Me; sarva-bhutani -- all living entities; na -- not; ca -- also; aham -- I; tesu -- in them; avasthitah -- situated.

 

By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

 

PURPORT

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is not perceivable through the gross material senses. It is said,

<center>

atah sri-krsna-namadi

na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jihvadau

svayam eva sphuraty adah

(Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.234)

</center>

Lord Sri Krishna's name, fame, pastimes, etc., cannot be understood by material senses. Only to one who is engaged in pure devotional service under proper guidance is He revealed. In the Brahma-samhita (5.38) it is stated, premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti: one can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda, always within himself and outside himself if one has developed the transcendental loving attitude towards Him. Thus for people in general He is not visible. Here it is said that although He is all-pervading, everywhere present, He is not conceivable by the material senses. This is indicated here by the word avyakta-murtina. But actually, although we cannot see Him, everything is resting in Him. As we have discussed in the Seventh Chapter, the entire material cosmic manifestation is only a combination of His two different energies -- the superior, spiritual energy and the inferior, material energy. Just as the sunshine is spread all over the universe, the energy of the Lord is spread all over the creation, and everything is resting in that energy.

 

Yet one should not conclude that because He is spread all over He has lost His personal existence. To refute such an argument the Lord says, "I am everywhere, and everything is in Me, but still I am aloof." For example, a king heads a government which is but the manifestation of the king's energy; the different governmental departments are nothing but the energies of the king, and each department is resting on the king's power. But still one cannot expect the king to be present in every department personally. That is a crude example. Similarly, all the manifestations that we see and everything that exists, both in this material world and in the spiritual world, are resting on the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The creation takes place by the diffusion of His different energies, and, as stated in the Bhagavad-gita, vistabhyaham idam krtsnam: He is everywhere present by His personal representation, the diffusion of His different energies.

</blockquote>

gHari

[anveshan]

"no te` gaatram naapi janmapi nakhya

no va roopam niiva seelam na desa:

twamev sookshma:purushvavyayastwam

twameva sookshmat paramam cha sookshmam"

 

My Lord, Thou hast no lineage, nor birth, nor name nor form. Neither hast Thou any duty or any locality. Tho art the spirit, dwelling in all, Invisible and immutable. Thou art the subtlest of the subtle.

"vyaktistwameva prakrutistwameva

twameva bhoomi: salilam twameva

twameva vahni: pavanastwameva

twameva yjno niyamastwameva"

 

Thou art the Manifest and Unmanifest. You art the earth, water, fire and air. Thou art the sacrifice and the rules thereof.

 

" sarvasmin sarvabhootastwam sarva: sarvasvaroopadhruk

sarva twattastatascha twam nama:sarvatmanoastute`"

 

"Lord, You abide in all; You are all; You assumest all forms

You are the origin of all; You are the self of all;

Salutations to Thee"

 

Whether Krishna, Rama x2, Vamana, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Satya Sai Baba and a host of others might be the manifirst forms of that Ultimate Reality. I do not contest, simply because I am ignorant.

 

Host of people, from time immemmorial, has committed blasphemy. In fact, we humans consider questioning every

age old 'belief' a blasphemy. But the history of the homo sapiens points to the fact scince and philosophy have developed through a spirit of inquiry; arguments and counter-arguments.

 

The Ultimate Aim could be realized through forms or without forms. And I do agree that it is easy to reach IT through forms.

 

Neither the vedas nor the bible is infallible. All are compositions of great men of learning. By critically analysing the bible or the sruties and smruties, you get the essence of it, which is eternal. Rest of it has to go through a process of reformation.

[gHari]

anveshan wrote: <blockquote>"Neither the vedas nor the bible is infallible. All are compositions of great men of learning. By critically analysing the bible or the sruties and smruties, you get the essence of it, which is eternal. Rest of it has to go through a process of reformation."</blockquote>

 

anveshan, are the above speculations yours or do you have a source for them? Since it is documented that the Vedas are produced from the breathing of Lord Narayana, I am finding these conclusions unacceptable.

 

It might also be meaningful to know the sources of the earlier quotations for which you have offered translations.

 

gHari

[anveshan]

All opinions expressed are, unless otherwise stated, are my personal views. The verses quoted are from a book , compiled and edited by H.H. Shri Swami Chinmayananda of the Chinmaya Mission, and are classified as ‘ancient and anonymous’.

 

To me the sruties also are ancient and anonymous. The sruties and smruties, when handed down from generation to be generation, got convenient additions and deductions, got corrupted, concocted and altered to suit vested interests. Sanatana Dharma, I do believe, is the some total of the essence of scientific and logical thinking of ancient seers, sages and scholars of the highest order. It evolved through logical reasoning, out of arguments and counter arguments by the seekers themselves. All ancient cultures –aztecs, mayans, maories, africans and the chinese have contributed to the essence of it

 

Today’s ‘Hinduism’ is that which is developed and interpreted by ‘father’ Manu and great men of his ilk.

 

Certainly Father of All Beings do not differentiate between His beings. That is the essence of Sanatana Dharma.

 

These are expression of opinions only. I am neither a scholar, nor an authority, just a common vidyarthi.

 

[Guest guest]

Krishna is different from the mortal Earth dweller. He is a celestial spirit that safeguards his devotees from demons and bad Karma. He is a deity that decides where the soul will go in reincarnation when death takes the soul through the nine gates. He was present for the creation of the stars and the primal lord that shaped man. His immortality is not myth and he is watching with Radha in his other world home.

[Guest guest]

it means a fool

who cannot undersand that krishna is god Himself.

 

[Guest guest]

The 'Ultimate Aim' is to love God absolutely. How can one love an 'it'. Adoring God's existence is perhaps somewhat flattering, but it dismisses so many other loving sentiments with the primal Person.

 

If I say I admire that you exist, yet show no interest in or affection for who you really are, then I am indirectly slighting you. Envy of God's unique and Supreme position will force us to either deny Him or to minimize Him so we can cope with our jealousy. Study envious people and you will hear them constantly criticize great people while they avoid seeing their full magnificence.

 

Gazing upon God's brilliant beauty is unbearable for the envious. This envy can be defeated with knowledge - knowledge of our true insignificance. Yet everyone is of absolute significance to God, for we have been created for His pleasure. He did not create "it's". He created complete beings with which to interact.

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

All opinions expressed are, unless otherwise stated, are my personal views. The verses quoted are from a book , compiled and edited by H.H. Shri Swami Chinmayananda of the Chinmaya Mission, and are classified as ‘ancient and anonymous’.

 

 

Considering that you read books by Advaitin swamis, it is not at all surprising that you thik that Krishna is a mortal man.

 

What else can Advaitins teach?

[xxvvii]

I suggest you to check the contexts about Jesus in Quran.

[Vaishnava_das108]

What does Jesus have to do with anything here?

 

Besides that, I did intensely study Islam for a while and so I am aware of the descriptions of Jesus in the Quran. What exactly are you referring to and how is it relevant to this topic?