Gauracandra Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 I have heard that in Madhva Vaisnavism there is a specific view of the existence of hell. What is the Madhva view of hell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguraman Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Hare Krishna, ----------------- buddhirbalaM yasho dhairyaM nirbhayatvaM arogatA | ajADyaM vAkpaTutvaM cha hanUmatsmaraNAdbhavet.h || Intelligence, strength, fame, valor, fearlessness, lack of ill-health; absence of sloth, skill in speech, and many more -- all accrue upon remembering Hanuman. (Chatur-mukha) Brahma himself as a Guru, and the Lord-of-Shri (Vishnu) as my IshhTa-Devata, Srimad-Âchârya (Madhva) as Âchârya, these may I have, in birth after birth. ----------------- I have read something about Sri Madhvacharya's concepts of hell and personally I do believe them. Just like Vaikunta(immortal world of Lord) there is a permanent hell besides the 14 worlds or lokas. Kali the evil personality rose during the churning of the ocean. He causes great evil in this world and during the dissolution of the universe souls that are destined to eternal hell join or enter into Kali and are cast into hell. Acharya Madhva asserts his belief by quoting from Bhagvad Gita, where Lord Krishna says that he hurls evil people into demonic wombs again and again and they begin to hate the Lord so much that they would not be able to reach him at all. According to Acharya there are three kinds of souls. 1. Souls that are destined to achieve Moksha. 2. Souls that are destined to return back to samsara again and gain without any end. 3. Souls that are destined to be eternally damned. Eternally damned souls are the ones that are by design evil. They cause harm to all living beings by nature. These souls cannot go beyond the Bhu Loka(Earth) ie they cannot go to heavenly worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 3. Souls that are destined to be eternally damned. Eternally damned souls are the ones that are by design evil. They cause harm to all living beings by nature. These souls cannot go beyond the Bhu Loka(Earth) ie they cannot go to heavenly worlds. Are you sure here? How can a soul be by design evil when all souls are part of Krsna? And aren't all lokas temporary by nature as opposed Goloka and Vaikuntha-loka? If so what happens to the souls when their hells are withdrawn into an unmanifested state? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguraman Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Hare Krishna, First I am talking of a permanent hell(apart from the 14 worlds). Second, according to Acharya Madhva, there are three eternally different "eternal entities". 1. GOD(Lord Vishnu) 2. Jiva (a) Mahalaksmi (eternally free Jiva) (b) Jivas that were or are in bondage 3. Prakriti All three entities are eternally different ones. Lord Vishnu resides in the heart of ALL JIVAS but does not experience pleasure or pain of the Jivas. By the way, what I mean by Design is that these souls were, are and will be like that. This is one of the reasons that Acarya's philosophy wasnot accepted by everyone generally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted February 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Kali the evil personality rose during the churning of the ocean. He causes great evil in this world and during the dissolution of the universe souls that are destined to eternal hell join or enter into Kali and are cast into hell. I had hypothesized before whether or not the personification of Kali was a parallel to the Christian Satan. One who seeks to bring about evil in the world. Sounds like from Madhva Vaisnavism, this is fairly close. Are you saying that this Kali personified, in fact controls this permanent hell. Also, would this individual be an eternal personality, or does he only appear in the age of Kali Yuga. Very intesting ideas. Thanks for the information Raguraman. Any other details would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 "Kali the evil personality rose during the churning of the ocean. " there is no evidence supporting this in bhagavatam or gita. what scripture says this? "3. Souls that are destined to be eternally damned." there is no evidence supporting this in bhagavatam or gita. what scripture says this? if gita does not say it, so i would say that madhva did not say it either. HK's are from gaudiya madhva line and the do not agree to etnerla hell. only xians thin of eternal hell. prabhupada has said that madhva was an incarnation of bhima (a pandava). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 Where does this permanent hell exist if it is apart from the 14 worlds and not spiritual? I will never accept that some souls were made inherently evil and destined to reside in an eternal hell. Never. I don't care who says it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2003 Report Share Posted February 22, 2003 various hells are described in the vedic literature. They are there always, but the inhabitant jivas are not permanent residents there. They come to suffer according to their sins, and go for better. no need to be scary of something that is not true. no soul stays in hell for ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 The theory of three kinds of living entities, one of which is the eternally damned soul, is not spoken of by Madhva,but by later teachers in their line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Where did they get such an idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Srila Prabhupada said that chanting the Hare Krishna mantra could deliver even a person who has killed the whole universe so the idea that there is a hell that is inescapable is not true. Even the most fallen of fallen beings can go back to Krishna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingentity Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Didn't even the demons that were sent to "kill" Lord Krsna receive liberation when they were killed by the Lord. Just the thought of the Lord's names, fame and pastimes even by accident can save one even the most fallen and demoniac at the time of death...I agree that an inescapable hell is not true. Where does it say this in the Vedas? Punishment for a time, yes. Inescapable, show the scripture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted February 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2003 This would be like Christianity without the possibility of redemption. Seems rather unfair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted February 24, 2003 Report Share Posted February 24, 2003 I sometimes link the idea of eternal hell with the nitya-baddha which is not actually 'nitya' eternal forever and ever, but rather is really just an unimaginable long long time. And when a long long time is spent in disgusting hopeless situations it could really seem like forever. That hell I see is climbing through eight million lower species constantly in fear, torn to shreds and devoured alive at death. This could well fit somehow into the Christian concept of "Hell". If there's something worse than that .... I don't wanna know. My personal view of hell: will be from as far away as possible, if I can help it. Hari Hari bol. gHari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted February 24, 2003 Report Share Posted February 24, 2003 Yes indeed its all around us. A bee caught in a spiders web, a gazelle in Africa being caught and devoured by lions or hyenas. Oh God no more please. The nitya-baddha situation that you described must be the truth of the matter. We are really at the door of freedom. Human form, Hare Krsna mantra, profuse descriptions of the Supreme Lord. The scary thing is for all my words I still don't appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaishnava_das108 Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 I will never accept that some souls were made inherently evil and destined to reside in an eternal hell. Never. I don't care who says it. Speaking of which, I recall seeing a picture of the dying Ajamila when I was very young, and the demons were taking his soul. I was mighty scared by this picture, their twisted contorted faces were literally a work of art (perversely). And now that I am more mature enough to understand the writings, they were servants of Yamaraja after all. I am not sure if these YAmadutas can be classified as "devils" or so, even though they 'devilishyly' argued with the Visnudutas, but anyway, what souls are these? Are these souls inherently evil or what? How exactly does one submit to the "service of Sri Yamaraja"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 How exactly does one submit to the "service of Sri Yamaraja"? What Sort of Entities Become Yamadutas?http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/hinduism/18627/4/collapsed/4/o/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaishnava_das108 Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 Thank you very much for this information. According to the info found on that thread, Yamadutas are actually ghostly people who do Yamaraja-seva to get out of their position. "Those who have passed several years in the dreadful hell and have no descendants (to offer gifts) in their favor become messengers of Yama." (Garuda Purana 2.18.34) This doesn't mean that Yamadutas are evil in nature or soul, it is simply that they fell into a ghostly position and by their Yamaraja-seva (Yamaraja is a Vaishnava) they might evolve. Thank you again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vsdprasad Posted February 25, 2003 Report Share Posted February 25, 2003 you are welcome. "Those who have passed several years in the dreadful hell and have no descendants (to offer gifts) in their favor become messengers of Yama." (Garuda Purana 2.18.34) This doesn't mean that Yamadutas are evil in nature or soul, it is simply that they fell into a ghostly position and by their Yamaraja-seva (Yamaraja is a Vaishnava) they might evolve. Thank you again. Can those people who have no direct descendants (immediate sons/grandsons) be offered gifts in their favor by other people? If not, this too seems to be a valid reason for people esp in India having children till a male child is born. Or they may become vaishnavas to avoid hell and yamaraja. Also this verse may indicate that Jehadis are heading towards becoming future yamadutas by incuring sins. -Prasad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguraman Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 had hypothesized before whether or not the personification of Kali was a parallel to the Christian Satan. One who seeks to bring about evil in the world. Sounds like from Madhva Vaisnavism, this is fairly close. Are you saying that this Kali personified, in fact controls this permanent hell. Also, would this individual be an eternal personality, or does he only appear in the age of Kali Yuga. Very intesting ideas. Thanks for the information Raguraman. Any other details would be appreciated. Kali like ChaturmukhaBrahmA is an ordinary soul. Kali is the worst kind of demon. He arises in each creation and the worst soul becomes Kali. Just like the emancipated souls enter into BrahmA during dissolution, comdemned souls enter into Kali. This is Madhva's philosophy. Condemned souls are the ones that do evil by their nature. Kali himself suffers in that darkness as ordinary condemned souls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguraman Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Hare Krishna, "Kali the evil personality rose during the churning of the ocean. " there is no evidence supporting this in bhagavatam or gita. what scripture says this? Well this is what is given in Mahabharatha Tatparyanirnaya written by Madhvacharya. "3. Souls that are destined to be eternally damned." there is no evidence supporting this in bhagavatam or gita. what scripture says this? if gita does not say it, so i would say that madhva did not say it either. HK's are from gaudiya madhva line and the do not agree to etnerla hell. only xians thin of eternal hell. prabhupada has said that madhva was an incarnation of bhima (a pandava). Chapter 16. The Divine And Demoniac Natures TEXT 20 asurim yonim apanna mudha janmani janmani mam aprapyaiva kaunteya tato yanty adhamam gatim SYNONYMS asurim--demoniac; yonim--species; apannah--gaining; mudhah--the foolish; janmani janmani--in birth after birth; mam--unto Me; aprapya--without achieving; eva--certainly; kaunteya--O son of Kunti; tatah--thereafter; yanti--goes; adhamam--condemned; gatim--destination. TRANSLATION Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence. Dvaita Translation. The deluded, who are born diabolically, life after life, go down into darkness, without finding Me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauracandra Posted February 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Thanks Raguraman. This is very informative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguraman Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Hare Krishna, http://www.geocities.com/madhvaonline/sarvamula/tatvaviveka.html Tatva Viveka -By Sri Madhvacharya (translated to Kannada by H.H Sri Vidyamanyatirtha, translated from kannada to English by Madhukrishna Note:I can only say I have translated based on the understanding I have and within my limits.) <http://www.geocities.com/madhvaonline/line.jpg> <http://www.geocities.com/madhvaonline/madhva1.jpg> By evidence it can be proved that truth can be of two types ? independent and dependent. One who is free of defects, full of auspicious attributes, such Godhead Vishnu is Independent truth. Dependent truth is of two types deficient and non-deficient. Deficient can be divided into three ? deficiency for objects before its birth, deficiency for objects after its death, deficiency for objects that never exist. There is no other type of deficiency than those stated above. Non-deficient is of two types ? living and non-living. Living entities which are dependent can be divided into ever liberated and the ones who are touched by misery and under go tranmigration in material world. Lakshmi is the only ever liberated. Other living entities are divided into liberated and non-liberated. Even among the liberated souls from humans to four faced Brahma, the auspicious qualities vary hundred times. Lakshmi is always above Brahma in all qualities. Non-liberated can be classified into three categories ? satvik (mode of goodness), rajas (mode of action) and tamas (mode of ignorance). Those who belong to satvik are eligible for liberation. Those is rajas are bound to the world forever. Those in the tamas go into deepest ignorance. Non-living entities are divided into two ? indestructible and destructible. Space, time, Vedas, earth, 5 bhootas, 11 senses, Prana, Satva, Rajas & Tamo qualities, Rupa, Rasa, Gandha, Sparsha, Shabdha ? 5 tanmendriayas, higher truth, ego, intellect ?all these are eternal non-living entities. An object composed by these eternal entities are destructible. All living entities are eternal. Form, taste and other such qualities, actions, solidity, liquidity and other states all these are based on the properties of the element with which it is made of and are not different from it. Qualities based on the objects are of two types. That which will stay as long as the base object stays, that which will be destroyed even while the base object stays. Qualities which stay as long as the object stays, are called definite qualities and those qualities which will be destroyed even while object stays are called temporary qualities. One should understand the similarity and difference between the object and their definite qualities. One should also understand the large difference that exists between the Object and its temporary qualities. Even though Pot is destructible, the mud with which it is made of is indestructible. One should understand the similarity and difference between Pot and mud. Action - reason, quality ? object, action ? object, casts ? person, special ? pure, part ? parcel, in all these if relationship is temporary one should understand the difference and if relationship is definite one should understand the similarity and difference. One who understands the divisions made till now between the deficient and non-deficient entities which are under the control of Sri Hari will get liberated from the world. Thus ends the Tatvaviveka composed by Sri Madhvacharya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguraman Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Hare Krishna, The theory of three kinds of living entities, one of which is the eternally damned soul, is not spoken of by Madhva,but by later teachers in their line. Are you sure?http://www.geocities.com/madhvaonline/sarvamula/tatvasankh.html Tatva Sankhyanam -by Sri Madhvacharya (translated to kannada by H.H Sri Vidyamanya Swami, translated from kannada to english by Madhukrishna) <http://www.geocities.com/madhvaonline/line.jpg> <http://www.geocities.com/madhvaonline/madhva1.jpg> The Supreme principle can be divided into dependent and independent. Sri Vishnu who is full of auspicious qualities and wealth is independent. Dependent can be divided into deficient and non-deficient. Deficiency can be divided into deficiency for objects before its birth, deficiency for objects after its death, deficiency for objects that never exist. Non-deficient can be divided into living and one non-living. Living entities can be divided into two, not touched by misery and touched by misery. Sri Lakshmi is without misery, rest of the souls are touched by misery. Souls other than Lakshmi are of two types ? those who have overcome the misery and the ones who are still in misery. There are five types among those who are already liberated ? Gods, sages, pitrus, emperors and Supreme humans. Those who are still in misery are of two types ? capable of overcoming the misery and those who are not capable of overcoming the misery. Even those who are capable of overcoming the misery are of five kind ? Gods, sages, Pitrus, emperors and Supreme humans. Those who are not able to over come the misery are of two kind ? ignorant (tamasic) and those who will rotate in this world for ever (rajasic).The ignorant are of four kind ? Daityas, Rakshasas, Pishachas and lowest among humans. Among these ignorant some have already obtained complete ignorance (eternal hell) and others are still in this world. Objects without life are of three kind ? that which is there for ever, that which comes into existence and goes, that which does not exist for ever. Vedas are that which exists for ever. Puranas come into existence based on time and Environment and goes. The objects without life which does not exist for ever are divided in to two ?well composed and not well composed. Higher principles (Mahatatva), principle of ego (Ahankara tatva), principle of knowledge (buddhitatva), mind, eyes and other five sense organs, 5 bhutas, -like this 24 elements constitute not so weel composed elements. Universe and all the elements within constitute well composed elements. Creation, maintenance, destruction, initiative to sustain in itself, deficient and non-deficient ? two types of wrong knowledge, right knowledge, attachment, liberation, happiness, misery, darkness, light all this are given to this universe based on the eligibility of individual by Lord Visnu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguraman Posted February 26, 2003 Report Share Posted February 26, 2003 Hare Krishna, Where does this permanent hell exist if it is apart from the 14 worlds and not spiritual? I will never accept that some souls were made inherently evil and destined to reside in an eternal hell. Never. I don't care who says it. No need to be scared. Unlike Christianity, just because you pray to a different GOD you do not go to hell. Lord Krishna himself says in Gita that those who worship Gods go to Gods. It is the Tamasic souls(Paisachas, Rakshasas, Asuras etc.) that are Tamasic by nature that go to hell. If you love DIVINE BEINGS like Gods it shows for sure that people like you are attracted to that infinite Brahma(Lord Vishnu called by different names). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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