What do Hare Krishna devotees believe about Christ?

[theist]

I think your last post shows a lot of misconceptions but I am not in the mood to pursue them now. Haribol

 

Jaya Yoshua

[Guruvani]

Is this what you are referring to?:

quote:

 

"In the Chaitanya Caritamrita Prabhupada said that devotees like Haridas Thakur and Vasudeva Datta were MILLIONS OF TIMES GREATER THAN CHRIST. If Christ was such a great pure devotee then why would Prabhupada say that? That tells me that Christ was not really everything that the sentimental Christian devotees would like to think him to be. Prabhupada was very wise and wiley when it came to avoiding a religious war with the Christians, but in his books he told the truth that the real pure devotees are millions of times greater than Jesus Christ." (end quote)

 

 

Prabhupada indeed spoke like this and I think the misconceptions are regarding the notion that the God of the Jews was Krishna or Vishnu. The God of Christ was the same God as the God of the Old Testament. I am not ignorant of the Bible. I have a copy in my library and have studied it quite in depth. There are many good and pious wisdoms in the Bible, though the God of the Old Testament is veiled in complete darkness. Books like Proverbs and Psalms might very well be some remnants of the Upanishads, though the Bible falls far short of being unadulterated Veda.

Prabhupada said we should not talk much about the Bible or Christianity. Generally, he made his comments on the subject short and shallow. I think it is best if devotees not try to make too much of Christ or the Bible. The Krishna consciousness philosophy offers so much more than Biblical philosophy. If you want to be a Christian be a Christian but I don't think it is proper to try and force devotees to accept such bluster about Christ around the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

Prabhupada is millions of times greater than Christ!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Referring to 'sentimental Christian devotees' is very dangerous. Even desiring to have such an opinion is dangerous. Whence comes the motivation to voice these things? Very frightening, and very offensive to non-sectarian devotees and to Srila Prabhupada for claiming to derive such ugliness from his words.

 

While Srila Prabhupada did note that two great devotees were much greater since one would save all entities forever (instead of just his own human followers, as with Jesus) and the other was beaten repeated until he agreed to appear dead, nowhere is it suggested that any pure devotee is as great as those two. The number of souls to be saved by Vasudeva Datta's plan would be millions and billions and trillions times more than that to be saved by the Christ.

 

One can hear the tone in Srila Prabhupada's words when he speaks of Jesus. To minimize Prabhupada's respect for Lord Jesus is simply folly. Pure devotees do not throw the word "Lord" and empowered incarnation around in jest.

[Guruvani]

The danger with devotees making too much of the Christian thought is that in the end you end up with something like a Kirtanananda Swami who concocted a very ridiculous combination of Krishna consciousness and Christianity to the point of madness and absurdity.

 

Trying to mix these two beliefs is actually offensive to the Vaishnava faith and is much more dangerous than a healthy skepticism about the validity of so-called Christianity as a religion.

 

I think it is very offensive to the devotees to try and force them to validate or accept Christ or Christianity. When some sentimental Christian introduces the topic of Christ in a circle of devotees he should be prepared for rejection to a large degree because most Hare Krishna devotees have very little interest or concern about the subject.

 

The subject of Christ and Christianity takes up less than one small paragraph total in all of Prabhupada's books, so I think we should follow Prabhupada's lead and leave the topic alone almost totally.

 

To accuse others of being offensive because they do not like the topic of Christ to become the central subject of devotee discussions is a rude and offensive attitude as far as I am concerned. Hare Krishna devotees want to talk about Krishna consciousness not Jesus. Excuse me if I do not buy into the sentimental attitudes about Jesus. There are Christian forums where he is the central figure, but in devotee circles he takes up very little attention.

 

I do appreciate the piety of Christians, though I think their faith in God is poorly founded in Biblical theology.

The goodness of most Christians is more founded in their personal piety and morality than in the religion of the Bible. The God of the Bible was a vengeful and jealous God as described in the Old Testament. Such a God could never be Jagannatha Krishna - the Lord of the Universe. More than likely the God of the Bible was some demigod thought to be God like Indra, Brahma, Siva or some other god of the karma-kanda portion of the Vedas. Indra was a jealous and vengeful god at times. The God of the Old Testament was not Vishnu, rather some demigod who was misunderstood to be supreme. We find that same kind of misconception in many of the followers of karma-kanda portions of the Vedas throughout the histroy of India and South Asia.

[gHari]

Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Madhya-lila 15.163:<blockquote><center>jIvera pApa laJA muJi karoG naraka bhoga

sakala jIvera, prabhu, ghucAha bhava-roga

</center>

jIvera--of all conditioned souls; pApa laJA--accepting the sinful reactions; muJi--I; karoG--do; naraka--hellish life; bhoga--experience; sakala jIvera--of all living entities; prabhu--my dear Lord; ghucAha--please finish; bhava-roga--the material disease.

"My dear Lord, let me suffer perpetually in a hellish condition, accepting all the sinful reactions of all living entities. Please finish their diseased material life."

 

PURPORT

 

SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI ThAkura gives the following commentary on this verse. In the Western countries, Christians believe that Lord Jesus Christ, their spiritual master, appeared in order to eradicate all the sins of his disciples. To this end, Lord Jesus Christ appeared and disappeared. Here, however, we find SrI VAsudeva Datta ThAkura and SrIla HaridAsa ThAkura to be many millions of times more advanced even when compared with Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ relieved only his followers from all sinful reactions, but VAsudeva Datta is here prepared to accept the sins of everyone in the universe. So the comparative position of VAsudeva Datta is millions of times better than that of Lord Jesus Christ. A VaiSNava is so liberal that he is prepared to risk everything to rescue the conditioned souls from material existence. SrIla VAsudeva Datta ThAkura is universal love itself, for he was willing to sacrifice everything and fully engage in the service of the Supreme Lord.

 

SrIla VAsudeva Datta knew very well that SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu was the original Personality of Godhead, Transcendence itself, above the material conception of illusion and mAyA. Lord Jesus Christ certainly finished the sinful reactions of his followers by his mercy, but that does not mean he completely delivered them from the pangs of material existence. A person may be relieved from sins once, but it is a practice among Christians to confess sins and yet commit them again. By getting freed from sins and again engaging in them, one cannot attain freedom from the pangs of material existence. A diseased person may go to a physician for relief, but after he leaves the hospital he may again be infected due to his unclean habits. Thus material existence continues. SrIla VAsudeva Datta wanted to completely relieve the conditioned souls from material existence so that they would no longer have an opportunity to commit sinful acts. This is the significant difference between SrIla VAsudeva Datta and Lord Jesus Christ. It is a great offense to receive pardon for sins and then commit the same sins again. Such an offense is more dangerous than the sinful activity itself. VAsudeva Datta was so liberal that he requested SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu to transfer all offensive activity upon him so the conditioned souls would be purified and go back home, back to Godhead. This prayer was certainly without duplicity.

</blockquote>

[gHari]

It's the sectarian mentality of the kanistha.

[Guruvani]

Yes, Prabhupada considered the followers of Jesus to be his 12 disciples. It was these 12 that Christ tried to save. We have ISKCON gurus with thousands of disciples, so I guess that makes even them much more advanced and merciful than Jesus.

The kanistha is the one who has too much affinity for a man-made religion called Christianity and too much spite for those who don't.

Don't hate me because I don't buy into your concocted views abut Jesus and Christianity. If it's not spoken by Prabhupada or a great Vaishnava acharya, I don't think it is worth the attention.

[gHari]

Actually, I realize that you've only been around a couple of weeks, but you'll find that if you do not click on a thread link, you will not have to read it.

 

There was a whole thread on mouse control recently. That may be more interesting than all this Jesus carp.

[Guest guest]

Guruvani

Yes, Prabhupada considered the followers of Jesus to be his 12 disciples. It was these 12 that Christ tried to save. We have ISKCON gurus with thousands of disciples, so I guess that makes even them much more advanced and merciful than Jesus.

 

And Sai Baba has more than Prabhupada. You are truly a highly disturbed thinker. Iskcon gurus greater than Christ. Yeah right.

[Priitaa]

 

Forgive me for interrupting. Regarding Jesus, I have been perusing the comments here, and find people making some remarkable claims. I would really like to know the historical sources for this information (that He didn't really die, that He visited Kashmir, that He worshipped Lord Jagannath, and so on). Can anyone enlighten me? In particular, where and when did Srila Prabhupada say that Jesus didn't really die?

Haribol!

BlackFog

[Priitaa]

 

I've read that also, but concerning Lord Jesus Christ he said he came straight from the spiritual world.

 

...take the essence...SP letter to Krsnadasa 1972

 

 

Haribol Theist,

 

You helped me once before to locate a letter for my web site. So now I am bothering you again. :-) Only if you can find this of course. Anyway, what you said above, I am currently preaching to someone who has asked me this very question. I have "heard" a variety of answers explaining what planet Christ descended from. But no proof. Here they are:

 

1-From Siddhaloka, a place in the heavens.

2-From DhruvaLoka, where he also returned. A genuinely good Christian will go there and from that place, Christ will preach to them about Krishna.

3-From the Spiritual World. I also read a quote where Prabhupada said Jesus returned to the Spriitual world.

 

Can anyone out there give any proof/Prabhupada quotes, on any of these? Which one is true? Or a combination may be true? I really need quotes. They will also go onto my web page if they apply. Thanks!

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Priitaa]

 

Prabhupada also said that the Bible was the scripture of the mlecchas and if you read the Bible you will become a mleccha. The God of the Old Testament was a jealous and destructive God as he himself admitted in the Old Testament. He caused the Jews to destroy entire cities including the women, children and everything that breathed.

 

 

Dear Prabhu,

 

I am in hopes that there is some misunderstanding. Tho I will agree devotees should not become obsessed with this, but nor should we become disrespectful of a pure devotee who is not given the recognition he deserves as a Vaishnava due to the fact that he had a different mission and had to hide his true beliefs. As for the Bible, even the nondevotees know it has been severely tampered with. Not very many take it seriously anymore. Enough, but gradually its being revealed that man has tampered with it. Therefore we cannot speculate on what kind of God was originally being spoken of. As for the N.T., Jesus was a Vaishanva and so would only preasent a loving God. Anything else that is said is bogus.

 

 

Prabhupada was very careful not to start a war with the Christians, but if you read the Bible you will find that the God of the Bible was a meat-eater who was very vengeful and wrathful. This is not Lord Vishnu, the God of Goodness, rather some other diety more akin to Kali.

 

 

I do not accept that Prabhupada lied to us merely for (religious) political reasons. Especially when he spoke over and over and OVER about Jesus. AND he not only said it in lectures, but in our scriptures, which will go on for the next 10,000 years. I doubt he was lying in Vedic literature. Also, there are many quotes that prove the Bible has been changed. Words like "table" have been conveniently translated as "meat." And many others.

 

 

I have no sentiments about Christ or the Bible. Prabhupada is the saviour of the modern world, not the religion that promotes and condones wholesale slaughter of cows.

 

 

I have no sentiment about the Bible, and have had to ask myself if I have sentiment over Christ. Here's a real quick test for devotees: If you can only choose one, Krishna or Christ, (or Prabhupada or Christ), which one ya gonna pick? I picked Krishna/Prabhupada, everytime, hands down! So other devotees can test themselves in this way if they are concerned with sentimentality. After that, preaching who Christ really was and is, can help bring others to Krishna consciousness! My research has convinced me that his original teachings are nothing like that which the current churches preach. Even they had to be strict vegetarians to call themselves a "Christian." Now the Christians say those who are vegetarians are Pagans. So lets show them who are the real Pagans, and preach the truth. In this way many will have their interest sparked in Krishna consciousness. And of those who don't, at least we will have a better world to live in!

 

 

The Jesus we think we know is nothing like the real Jesus.

 

 

Here we are in agreement.

 

 

Jesus was a Jew and he didn't look anything like the modern western portrayal of Jesus.

 

 

I am wondering how you know what Jesus looked like? Where is your evidence or quotes? I have more to say on this but first would like to see if you know something I dont, in which case, please enlighten me!

 

 

I think most of what Prabhupada said about Jesus was just diplomacy to avoid a war with the Christians and to placate devotees who were sentimental about Jesus. In the Chaitanya Caritamrita Prabhupada said that devotees like Haridas Thakur and Vasudeva Datta were MILLIONS OF TIMES GREATER THAN CHRIST. If Christ was such a great pure devotee then why would Prabhupada say that? That tells me that Christ was not really everything that the sentimental Christian devotees would like to think him to be. Prabhupada was very wise and wiley when it came to avoiding a religious war with the Christians, but in his books he told the truth that the real pure devotees are millions of times greater than Jesus Christ.

 

 

Prabhuapda DID say Jesus was a pure deovtee. He said many things about Christ. I must be honest and point out that it appears you are only giving power to the quotes you like, and not giving a balanced picture. I dont think anyone here is challenging if Lord Caitanya is more powerful or if Christ is more poweful, if Krishna is more powerful or if Christ is more powerful, if Prabhuapda is more powerful or Christ is more powerful. ETC.You get my point. I think we all agree Christ and Christianity are not the highest, but we also agree that Christ was a pure devoee, had a specific mission from Krishna Himself, and no one should make offenses to him.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

"Don't hate me because I don't buy into your concocted views abut Jesus and Christianity. If it's not spoken by Prabhupada or a great Vaishnava acharya, I don't think it is worth the attention.

"

 

it's very difficul to see your fanaticism as love for Srila Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

Kindly inform me how I may contact Bhakti Ananda Goswami?

TY

[theist]

Priitaa,

 

Not exactly what you ask for but i thought you would appreciate it anyway.

 

I'll look more extensive tommorrow as Prabhupada's praises of Lord Jesus are very extensive. Never a bother, thank you for engaging me and please do so in the future as I have folio and too much idle time. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

 

Devotee: Prabhupäda? Does Lord Jesus Christ appear in the spiritual sky with the body he manifested on the earth?

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. Otherwise how there can be resurrection? Ordinary body cannot be resurrected. He appeared in his spiritual body, certainly. Jesus Christ told, if I remember, that “Lord, excuse these persons,” who were crucifying him. Is it not? He knew that “These rascals, they are killing me, but... They are offending certainly. So they do not know that I cannot be killed, but they are thinking that they are killing.” You see? But that was offensive, therefore he begged Lord to be excused because God cannot excuse to the offenders of the devotee. He can excuse one who is offender to God, but if somebody is offender to the devotee, God never excuses. Therefore he prayed for them. That is devotee’s qualification. He prays for everyone, even of his enemy. And he could not be killed. That he knew. But those rascals, they thought they were killing Jesus Christ.

 

That’s all. All right. If there is no question, chant Hare Krsna. (end) Bg lecture 4.1-6 LA 1-3-69

 

 

[Guruvani]

According to Christian theology Christ's spiritual form was different from his Earthly form. After the resurrection, Christ appeared in the transfiguration:

(Luke 9:29) tells us that, "As He was praying, the appearance of his face changed," literally it, "was transformed." To use the language of Philippians chapter 2, the form of God shone through the form of a servant. Matthew wrote (Matt 17:2), "His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light." His entire figure seemed bathed in light, even lighting up his garments.

 

 

The spiritual form of Christ was somewhat different from his Earthly form.

 

[Priitaa]

 

According to Christian theology Christ's spiritual form was different from his Earthly form. After the resurrection, Christ appeared in the transfiguration:

(Luke 9:29) tells us that, "As He was praying, the appearance of his face changed," literally it, "was transformed." To use the language of Philippians chapter 2, the form of God shone through the form of a servant. Matthew wrote (Matt 17:2), "His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light." His entire figure seemed bathed in light, even lighting up his garments.

 

The spiritual form of Christ was somewhat different from his Earthly form.

 

 

So, are you stating that what Prabhupada said in the above quote by Thiest is wrong? Prabhupada is wrong and Christian Bible is correct? Please clarify. Thank you.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Priitaa]

 

Priitaa,

 

Not exactly what you ask for but i thought you would appreciate it anyway.

 

I'll look more extensive tommorrow as Prabhupada's praises of Lord Jesus are very extensive. Never a bother, thank you for engaging me and please do so in the future as I have folio and too much idle time.

 

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

Devotee: Prabhupäda? Does Lord Jesus Christ appear in the spiritual sky with the body he manifested on the earth?

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. Otherwise how there can be resurrection? Ordinary body cannot be resurrected. He appeared in his spiritual body, certainly. Jesus Christ told, if I remember, that “Lord, excuse these persons,” who were crucifying him. Is it not? He knew that “These rascals, they are killing me, but... They are offending certainly. So they do not know that I cannot be killed, but they are thinking that they are killing.” You see? But that was offensive, therefore he begged Lord to be excused because God cannot excuse to the offenders of the devotee. He can excuse one who is offender to God, but if somebody is offender to the devotee, God never excuses. Therefore he prayed for them. That is devotee’s qualification. He prays for everyone, even of his enemy. And he could not be killed. That he knew. But those rascals, they thought they were killing Jesus Christ.

 

That’s all. All right. If there is no question, chant Hare Krsna. (end) Bg lecture 4.1-6 LA 1-3-69

 

 

Thanks Thiest,

 

Great find! While its not exactly what I was looking for, it was a good read. I had never read that one before, and I've found quite a few of them! Guess there are always more hiding somewhere. And some say (uh hum - clearing throat ha) Prabhupada only wrote a paragraph about Jesus. Not so. There is quite a lot to be fond in his writings that will be referred back to for the next 10,000 years. Also, Mohamad was a satyaktavesha avatara. There are many, they roam this planet, and help human beings come up to a level where they can eventually discover Krishna.

 

Anyway, am getting off topic so thanks for your offer. If you find anything that reveals what planet Christ descended from, as well as what one he returned to, that would be great. But its ok if you can't find it. These things are not easily located.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Priitaa]

I want to take a little time to clarify my position on Jesus. First, I understand that most of us, when we hear the name "Jesus" or "Christ," our mind immediately returns to our days at Sunday School or church, or the Bible, etc. We are still somewhat contaminated by their mis-teachings of Christ's teachings, which they shoved down our throat. One of those mis-teachings is that they own Christ, that if one accepts Christ they are immediately a Christian. But no one owns pure devotees. No one owns satkyatavesha avataras. If I can be given just a little of your time, I hope to prove, or at least increase the possibility, that Jesus was a devotee of Lord Krishna. I would also like to point out that I only use the Bible when it agrees with Prabhupada. When it contradicts, I do not accept the Bible.

 

I must start with the shroud. Now if folks don't believe the shroud is that of Christ, what I am about to say will be pointless to them. So here's some basic proof, then you're on your own. :-)

 

Some insist the shroud was the cloth that covered the body of Christ when he was removed from the cross, while others insist it's a fake. More facts are needed. First and from the point of view of the Shroud as a fake or intended replica by a trickster, one must note that the Shroud is in 3-D. This is a very important point, because even if it were a replica, such a replication would have been made long ago, as the Shroud has been scientifically proven to be extremely old. Even the nonbelievers accept this. Therefore, with our all of our modern advancement in technology, our camera's only record light variations and intensities of reflected light, whereas the Shroud contains distance information within it. There is no camera or photograph having the ability to record distance from film to subject.

 

Add to that, if someone were to try to paint a replica, it would be literally impossible. An artist always steps back from their canvas to view what they are doing, if it's turning out as desired, etc. This means removing oneself by one - two meters for accuracy. Since the image on the Shroud is revealed by standing a significant distance, an artist would require a paint brush that was abnormally long (cumbersome) AND the ability to hold it firm to paint very fine lines on cloth (not smooth canvas), as the Shroud contains distinct detail. Furthermore, 'album' has been scientifically proven in area's where scourge marks occurred, so our medieval trickster would need to include serum albumin as part of the paint, which only shows up under ultra-violet light, thus invisible paint. What to speak of the lack of medical, anatomical knowledge at the time. The Shroud is completely, medically accurate. --- The list goes on.

 

Next, is it possible that, due to preconceived ideas the person of the Shroud was all ready dead, most (though not all) scientists have a problem with how the Shroud image was created? Therefore, this throws off their scientific data. (Please note, a dead body doesn't bleed!)

 

Thirdly, we can note that the markings on the Shroud correspond to specific descriptions in the Bible about the beatings and persecution of Jesus Christ. Since Prabhupada said Christ survived the crucifixion and moved to Kashmir India, this gives the crucifixion credibility.

 

What follows are summaries from examiners of STURP or "Shroud of Turin Research Project." Devotees who all ready believe it was Christs shroud may wish to skip this part & scroll down, as its rather sad and gory.

 

BLOWS TO THE FACE - The Shroud reveals swelling under the right eye, swelling on right cheek, etc. The same as Biblical descriptions of the soldiers abuses upon Christ, bludgeoning his face. (Matthew 27.30)

 

WHIP - The person in the Shroud had over 29 whip marks on the back and front of his body, some on the chest, but especially notable in the shoulder and back areas, indicating that this person was facing the column while being scourged. There are no marks on the forearms indicating that his arms were tied above him. The markings are characteristic of Roman flagrum - an instrument of torture, and it was a horrid instrument at that. Approximately 60 strokes from scourging (120 wounds) are visible on the Shroud. (Matthew 27:26)

 

BLOODIED WHIP MARKINGS - At that time, one who was to be crucified had to carry their own cross to be crucified upon, causing the whippings to next become more bloodied. On the right shoulder of the Shroud there is blood from a wound of 10 x 9 cm. (Matthew.27:32)

 

BLOODIED FRONT and BACK of HEAD - There is blood on the head area of the Shroud, especially on the front and back of the head, thus thorns. Remember, not all who underwent crucifixion wore thorns. This was specially made for Christ - to humiliate him. (Matthew 27:29)

 

NAIL WOUNDS - While many think Christ had nails through his palms, it was later discovered he had them through his wrists. Makes sense, as nails through the hands would not be strong enough to hold one up and could cause ripping/breaking, then the person would fall off the cross. The Shroud has nail wounds (blood) spurting from the wrists area's. Three nails - one for each wrist and one nail through both feet - are blood stain evidence of the Shroud. (John 20:25)

 

KNEES & LEGS - Both knees have wounds (from carryingg a cross?); the right one is worse. (Jesus fell three times before he reached Calvary.) The Shroud also shows knee damage similar to that of falling - as one would have after going limp when removed from a cross. However, there were no injuries found on the upper or lower legs of the person in the Shroud; also according to the Bible there were no injuries to Christ's legs. Which, by the way, was unusual. (John 19: 31-37)

 

HEART & RIGHT SIDE- A thin line on the shroud shows where blood from the nail wound in the right hand flowed along the right arm when the hand was un-nailed. Dead, dry blood does not run. Thus, another piece of evidence that Christ's heart was still active when he was lowered from the cross. In addition, the Shroud provides further proof where the lance the Roman soldier used to test Jesus as dead. Stains of blood show the lance pierced the right side of the chest between the fifth and sixth rib of the Shroud, with blood marking on the Shroud at an angle of twenty-nine degrees, revealing an oval wound like a sword or lance would make. This means that the lance passed close to the heart but did not damage it, thus the "blood and water" John describes that flowed from the wound could not have come from the heart. However slightly, the heart was still beating! Had the lance pierced the left side, it would have struck the heart. But through the right, it missed it. The Bible describes a lance put through the right side of Christ. (John 19:34)

 

The height of the person of the Shroud is 6 feet tall and he is of Jewish decent.

--------

Moving on.......

 

JESUS WAS A VAISNAVA

 

* THE SHROUD HAD TILAKA! - Scientist Paul Vignan noticed in the Byzantine painting, a mosaic of the Holy Shroud of Turin, there is a "V" mark down the center of the forehead. Of course, this could be the artists perception. However, they were very strict followers of Christ and unlikely to concoct anything. But Mr Vignon had an opportunity most of us will never have. He was an official exmainer of the Shroud! Allow me to quote:

 

"Researcher Paul Vignon, noticed "on the forehead between the eyebrows of this work a starkly geometrical |_| shape....When he turned to the equivalent point the Shroud face, there was the same feature, equally as geometric, and equally as unnatural because it appeared to have noting to do with the image itself.......... Ian Wilson, The Shroud of Turin - The Burial Cloth of Jesus Christ? (1978)

 

"Artists have copied certain characteristic details, technically known as Vignon markings, after the scientist who analyzed fifteen of them, such as a transverse steak across the forehead of the Shroud image, a V-shape at the bridge of the nose, two curling stands of hair in the middle of the forehead, a hairless area between the lower lip and the beard, and so forth. In some of the earliest copies...as many as thirteen of the fifteen details are discernible." ~ Noel Currer-Briggs, The Shroud and the Grail - A Modern Quest for the True Grail (1987)

 

* THE SHROUD HAD A SIKHA! That pretty much sums it up. There is a tuft of hair coming from the center back of the head from the Shroud that is longer than the rest.

 

* JESUS TRAINED AS A BRAHMACARI IN JAGANNATHA PURI - I think many devotees all ready know this, but often they don't understand the A.G. (Aquarian Gospel), so I have explained it on my web page in Krishna Conscious terms. Regardless, we must not throw out the fact that Jesus was trained as a Vaisnava of Lord Jagannatha for years! AND Prabhupada has said Jesus was a student there! (Previously quoted.) One devotee wrote me the following email: "There are inscriptions on stone at the Jagannatha temple attesting to the presence of Jesus there. ... One Prabhupada devotee told me he personally saw these inscriptions."

 

* CHRIST WAS A VEGETARIAN - While this doesn't exactly prove he was a Vaisnava, coupled with the rest it is very supportive, and especially it disproves the current King James, etc., Bibles that are being accepted as the original words of Jesus. They are not. Much has been changed. Anyone desiring to see some of those changes, especially about vegetarianism, let me know and I will post some here. However, why would a 12 year old boy freak out (for lack of a better word) when entering the temple and seeing the slaughter and sale of birds, if meat eating was a way of life for that child? He must have been a vegetarian!

 

Prabhupada Quote: "It is said that Lord Jesus Christ, when twelve years old, was shocked to see the Jews sacrificing birds and animals in the synagogues and that he therefore rejected the Jewish system of religion and started the religious system of Christianity, adhering to the Old Testament commandment "Thou shalt not kill." ~ Srimad Bhagavatam, 7.15.10 P

 

* SAKTYAVESHA AVATARS ARE EMPOWERED - No one can do what they do, and they often are big preachers. BIG preachers. Jesus did not preach only in the countries mentioned in the Bible. He went on traveling sankirtana :-) going from Israel/Jordan to Damsascus, then Nisbis also known as Naisibain which is slightly above Iraq. Next on to Iran, Herat Afganisthan, Pakistan/Taxila, Sringar and finally to Kashmir India where he settled down and lived out the rest of his life. And this is just a summary, probably leaving out the smaller palces. In any case, the average person can not travel all over and preach this widely! What to speak of how his life was threatened in more than one place, yet he continued to travel and preach. He *had* to be empowered.

 

We must also understand that his specified mission as a Saktyavesha avatara may not be one that pleases OUR senses, because we all want him to preach about Krishna, myself included. But what would YOU do if Krishna gave you the instruction of preaching morals and goodness, gradual elevation, about God in general but NOT to preach about Him, or at least not openly or to all. After all, they tried to kill Jesus for the little bit he all ready said!

 

IMHO I suspect Christ did tell his intimate disciples about Krishna. Some of the Byzantine paintings of his disciples also have tilaka!

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[gHari]

Thank you. It is all very interesting. Perhaps you have enough proof to be so positive about it being fact. I don't know. I could never represent these ideas as anything more than intelligent speculation though. We would look very foolish and insincere if they are shown to be inaccurate, something like the recent casket of Christ's brother. There too we found carvings, but they turned out to be a hoax.

 

I am hoping that the Christian scholars eventually will prove your ideas true. Perhaps your website will get some projects funded to do just that.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

gHari,

 

Thanks. I'm not worried about presenting them to those who aren't open minded or have no interest in Krishna. Therefore, I don't really care how I look. ha But I certainly am not insecure about it. After all, Prabhupada has said repeatedly throughout our shastra that Jesus was a Vaisnava. He used those words. So now that a little supportive evidence comes along, I am suppose to doubt it? Not me. :-)

 

Of course the problem remains that we will never get full proof because the catholic church has done its best to destroy any documention of Christ that taught something different from them. For example, some Buddhists had a scroll of 'Isa,' from Christ's visit there, and a priest asked if he could 'borrow' it. Being simple Buddhists, they trusted him as a holy man and loaned them. He never returned. Some say they are in the vatican. I don't know. But this is just one example how evidence of Christ that manifests which is contradictory to the Bible, they destroy or hide it. So it's never going to happen that we get full proof. This does not bother me. The way I look at it is if I find supportive evidence from more than one source of the same point, or close, then I accept it. 98% or even 95% accurate is good enough IMHO. Such as Christ in India. There are actually a variety of sources proving he was there. Some choose to let the 2% or 5% out weigh the larger percentage.

 

As for the shroud, personally I find the tilaka to be proof, though many may not. But even the scientist who examined it could not deny the markings. Most of us are not use to Christians wearing markings on their face, but if you look into history, in the library and not churches, you may be surprised to find out it was relatively common.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guruvani]

I am not saying Prabhupada is wrong on this issue. I am saying that according to Christian theologians I know, who are friends of mine, Christ's spiritual form that he is supposed to come back in will be as the form of his transfiguration and not as the Earthly from that most people think of.

 

I have never felt that Christianity needed to be verified by Prabhupada or the Krishna conciousness movement. Christians do not need or even want that Hare Krishna devotees validate their beliefs.

I think the best position is to just respect the religion of the Christians but I do not feel that we need to try and validate it according to our acharyas or our beliefs.

 

We should respect their beliefs and their right to believe what they choose to believe, but we should not get into the complicated problem of trying to validate or verify it according to our own beliefs.

 

We respect their faith and they respect ours and there should be no attempt to link the two. I think that is better than trying to artificailly create some inter-religious union of faiths.

 

 

[Guruvani]

A heard from a senior Godbrother that Prabhupada also said that Jesus would not be coming back because there was nobody to come back for except a bunch of hyopcrites. Does anybody know anything about this supposed statement of Srila Prabhupada?

 

Could this be true?

Did Prabhupada say this about modern Christians?

 

though shalt not kill?

kiling, killing and killing?

where is a real Christian?

[Guest guest]

Guruvani,

 

Thanks for clarifying what you meant. Personally, I don't pay much attention to the Bible or what the Christians say their religion is all about, because they dont know their own religion (check out libraries and original Christianity), and the Bible has been seriously tampered with.

 

The way I see it is that we 'can' get many Christians to become Vaisnava's first because it is an addition and not a subtration to their religion. Also, if they see we are not offensive to their spiriutal master, and that we present the truth of what he was preaching too, because I have spoken to quite a few who believe in Jesus but are frustrated with their Bible and/or Church teachings. They want to know the truth! So thats what I am trying to do. And by discovering that truth, enough of them will turn to Krishna consciousness. For that matter even if one becomes a Vaisnava, that is perfect.

 

However, I don't feel this is limited to Christianity. Those devotees who were born Muslims and are now Vaisnavas, should preach to other Muslims who are open to hearing. Devotees who were raised Jewish should preach to others who are Jewish. The list goes on. Many may not even like their previous religion. Some may downright dislike it. However, since they were raised in it they will at least undrestand the wording of this or that, and the meaning of yada yada, more easily, whereas those raised in another faith would not. So in this way we can change the entire world. In time.

 

Maybe that sounds idealistic, but what many devotees dont know is that the nondevotees themselves, the Christians, are opening the door for us by digging at the truth of Christ and publishing books like "Jesus Went to India" or "Saving the Savior," or "Jesus Died in Kashmir." Many of these books show Christ connected to all religions, including ours. It would be so easy from that point to show how they all originated from India or Krishna. I mean, they are doing a lot of the work. All we need to do is jump on their train! :-)

 

But please dont misunderstand. This is not my only preaching nor amd I saying everyone should give up direct preacihng and do this instead. Not at all. Of my well over 50 web pages, three are about Jesus.

 

Thanks for loaning an ear.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

 

[theist]

Still looking for the quote on Christ coming directly from the spiritual sky Priitaa. It's a blissful search.

 

 

 

 

Prabhupäda: Body of Christ is not ordinary body. That is spiritual body. Krsna, as Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gétä, yadä yadä hi dharmasya glänir bhavati bhärata [bg. 4.7], pariträëäya sädhünäà vinäçäya ca duñkåtäm, dharma-saàsthäpanärthäya yuge yuge sambhavämi ätma-mäyayä [bg. 4.8]. So this is a very subtle point. One has to understand that when God comes or God’s son comes or God’s representative comes, they do not accept a body like us. They have their spiritual body. SB lecture 7.6.1 June 10,68