Dinosaurs and Vedic Civilization

[Guest guest]

If scientists are able to find the remains of dinosaurs from millions of years ago, why are they unable to uncover any evidence of Vedic civilization, i.e. buildings, aircrafts, weapons, and human remains that existed between then and up to the start of this kali-yuga? Could it possibly be that Vedic civilization only goes back to 8000 BC?

[Mxyzptlk]

They have found remains: The underwater city of Dwaraka, the bridge to Sri Lanka from Lord Ramachandra's era, to name a couple.

 

Also, it may be noted that in previous yugas, probably most people were cremated at the time of death. This is the age of Kali, and it is also known as the "Iron Age." In previous yugas, planes, buildings, and weapons were most likely not made of iron or steel, but from elements more in the mode of goodness. I know the Demigods used flower airplanes. Yogis could transport themselves via mystic siddhis. There may have been subtler elements in play in the Satya, Treta, and Dwapara Yugas which are now extinct and/or invisible in Kali Yuga.

[tattvadarshi]

Faithful followers of vedic philosophy will be unperturbed by your suggestion as observations such as these are far from new. There are certainly a stock of ready replies to this sort of remark.

 

On the other hand a committed materialist would regard your suggestion as stupid...Not because he disagreed with it, but because from the standpoint of official science and archeology the very idea of human civilization existing millions of years ago is preposterous.

 

Hmmm. MAYBE there is a fence-sitter somewhere on the verge of either accepting or rejecting the vedic version who could be moved by your statement, but I doubt it. Anyone who has even a smattering of empiricist education ALREADY KNOWS that the vedic worldview and the materialist worldview are at odds in COUNTLESS ways.

[tattvadarshi]

Question about dinosaurs

 

Q: Did dinosaurs really exist? In which yuga did they live? Is

the Earth same after a yuga ends and a new one starts? Is

there a destruction?

A: Sure they did. Can you imagine a hoax of such a colossal

dimension? Also the lore from all over the world knows about

some kind of big animals like dragons.

As far as I know they are found on all continents. Which yuga

is hard to say but in the Bhagavatam there is at least one

possible allusion to them (8.10.10-12). There is probably more

in other Puranas. During my study of North American Native

lore I found a hint in Ojibwa tribe legends that their

predecessors lived together with huge animals which were

destroyed by a comet.

Destructions (pralaya) of various dimensions happen regularly,

after every maha-yuga, manvantara, kalpa and dvi-parardha

(Brahma's life span) and at some special occasions. See SB

8.24 (Matsya-lila). About how Earth changes after each

particular pralaya there is not much said in sastra as far as

I know.

Q: Srila Prabhupada doubted that dinosaurs ever existed,

whereas much evidence is available to at least support the

view that dinosaurs did once exist on this planet. He also

stated that there was no such thing as 'extinction' of

species. Please elucidate.

A: Below you'll find compilation of everything recorded what

Srila Prabhupada said about the dinosaurs. I will now try to

comment on it a little bit.

First, he didn't deny their existence. He mentioned that the

existence of big forms of animals is recorded in the Vedas

(super-eagles - Srimad Bhagavatam 5.23.3, timingila

super-whales - SB 8.7.18, 8.10.10-12, 10.1.5-7). SB 8.10.10-12

mentions "big lizards" (whatever they are). The Vedas also

mention that with the progression of time the life forms

become smaller.

In general he didn't consider the matter of their existence or

nonexistence very important. He repeatedly stressed that our

sense perception is imperfect and that there are many life

forms which we don't know about.

This is very true. Humans actually know quite a small portion

of the land on this Earth, what to speak of the sea. Every

year there are many "new" organisms discovered and some of

them are quite big (reptiles, fish, birds, mammals). Just in

this century there have been discovered many big animals like

a species of jungle hog from Vietnam, a species of cat from

Ryu-kyu archipelago, a big species of shark from the Hawaii

islands, the onza (an animal from Mexico resembling the puma),

the giant octopus from the ocean abysses around Bahamas, giant

species of calmars etc.

Srila Prabhupada also said that no species of life becomes

extinct.

It is important to remember that the Vedic definition of

species is different from the modern one. The Vedas mention

8,400,000 species of life and all of them are repeatedly

created after every partial or total cosmic devastation.

Regarding the survival of the "living fossils" there is an

example of the Latimeria fish which exactly resembles the rock

imprints of the fossil Devonian species etc.

To study the possibility of existence of such animals a group

of scientists (mostly biologists) formed a new scientific

discipline called a cryptozoology. They have their regular

meetings, they organize expeditions to the remote corners of

the world and they publish the Journal of Cryptozoology in

which they discuss the existence of unknown (mainly big) life

forms from all over the world whose existence is supported by

ancient writings, local lore and both native and non-native

witnesses (soldiers, tourists, scientists etc.) There are also

websites dedicated to this field of study.

On their "wanted" list there are several species of hominids

from all over the world (known locally as yetti, almas,

sasquatch, big foot etc.), great dangerous cats of an

above-lion size from the jungles of equatorial Africa (some of

them with huge fangs), great species of reptiles or dinosaurs

from the oceans and lakes (e.g. Loch Ness in Scotland, Lake

Champlain in Canada, etc.) and the jungles (Africa, South

America), flying dinosaurs resembling Pteranodon and other

types (Zaire, Southwest USA), and many other.

Because this type of research, if successful, can seriously

damage the accepted paradigms of Darwinian evolution of

species, the establishment science views it with incredulity

and suspicion. Therefore the cryptozoology is a "marginal"

science.

Vaisnava scientists, on the other hand, use this type of

evidence to show that the Vedic version is correct. The book

Forbidden Archaeology by Richard Thompson (Sadaputa Das) and

Michael Cremo (Drutakarma Das) from the Bhaktivedanta

Institute was a breakthrough in this regard. If you have some

questions for our scientists write to Bhaktivedanta Institute

<bvi@afn.org>.

 

 

 

Room Conversation, Hyderabad, April 14, 1975

750414RC.HYD

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, the other day we were talking about

proving different assumptions through archeological findings.

Prabhupada: That is also bogus. Archeological findings is

bogus.

Brahmananda: But it seems that big skeletons of all these big

dinosaurs...

Prabhupada: That we have already information. We have got

timingila. Just like big house. They can swallow up, what is

called?

Devotee: Whale. Whale.

Prabhupada: Whale (indistinct).

Tamala Krsna: No but these dinosaurs move on the land. They're

not fish. And they're very big and we have information...

Prabhupada: So what is to you? You are also a created being.

He's also created being. That's the (indistinct). You are not

creator of the (indistinct)

Tamala Krsna: But you say that there was more intelligent life

previously, whereas we see these dinosaurs were previously.

Prabhupada: But you do not see, you simply imagine.

Tamala Krsna: No. We have the skeletons.

Devotee: We have the bones, the bones of animals.

Prabhupada: But that's all right. There was a big animal,

that's all. Just like you are a foolish animal, so there was a

big animal. What is the difference? They are animals.

Tamala Krsna: But we have skeletons showing the men at that

time also and their brains were very tiny.

Prabhupada: That you say. But I don't believe it. I have not

seen.

Morning Walk, Los Angeles, June 8, 1976

760608MW.LA

Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, I was once told by some devotees

that you had said in some previous age of Kali, the dinosaurs,

gigantic animals, were on the earth.

Prabhupada: I said?

Ramesvara: They say that you said. (laughs)

Prabhupada: (laughs) I never said. I never bother with these

nonsense things.

Ramesvara: They have got so many bones in the museums showing

these gigantic animals.

Prabhupada: Not gigantic. There are bones. But that animal is

still there, whalefish.

Ramesvara: Whalefish.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Very big body.

Ramesvara: Some have become extinct.

Prabhupada: Why they should be extinct?

Hrdayananda: No longer on the earth.

Ramesvara: No longer on this planet.

Prabhupada: (too much noise) Not necessarily. They are within

the ocean.

Hari-sauri: No, other animals.

Prabhupada: What other animals?

Ramesvara: Those gigantic, they called them...

Hrdayananda: Brontosaurus.

Ramesvara: Tyrannosaurus.

Gigantic animals, they say are meat-eaters.

Hrdayananda: Dinosaurus.

Hari-sauri: Tetrasaurus.

Prabhupada: Another imagination. These are actual facts.(?)

Hari-sauri: They just made up different compositions of bones

and then drew some outlines on them.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are imagination.

Hari-sauri: But you said in Hawaii though that there are some

animals that are as big as skyscrapers?

Prabhupada: Yes, these are birds. It is far from this earth

though. They travel from one planet to another.

Ramesvara: So these bones that they have found of these

gigantic animals, they were all living underneath the water.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Not on the land.

Prabhupada: Maybe. But the list is there: jalaja nava-laksani.

There are 900,000 different forms, and how many we have seen?

There is information in the sastra. Pasavas trimsal-laksani.

Three million different types of animals.

Hari-sauri: We've seen a few hundred at most.

Prabhupada: That's all. (laughs) That is also doubtful.

Slideshow Discussion, Washington D.C., July 3, 1976

760703SS.WDC

Svarupa Damodara: Do we know that in detail, Srila Prabhupada?

What type of species are extinct? Not all the species extinct.

As it is during Brahma's day, that partial annihilation,

devastation, now some species are extinct?

Prabhupada: No species extinct. What you are reading? This is

garbage.(?)

Svarupa Damodara: The physical forms.

Prabhupada: No, nothing is extinct. Everything is going on.

Svarupa Damodara: At that point, they are going to come up

with the point that "How about dinosaurs?" They are going to

ask like that.

Prabhupada: That is imagination, where is dinosaur finding.

Svarupa Damodara: They say they have all the bones.

Prabhupada: No, they are describing maybe another animal. That

is existing. That is Timingila, they can swallow up big, big

whale fishes. That big, bones, they are living still. Nothing

is extinct. They are already there.

Rupanuga: Did these dinosaurs exist, or is it just their

imagination?

Prabhupada: The big animal exists. I call it dinosaur or

finosaur, that is your choice. Big animals existing.

Timingila, I said the name, Timingila, still exist.

Rupanuga: Still exist.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. They are always existing. Water

elephants. There are elephants in water. Everything.

Rupanuga: So there is no such thing as extinction.

Prabhupada: No extinction, there is no question of extinction.

Rupanuga: If these animals were on this planet some millions

of years ago, they are still here, is that correct?

Prabhupada: Yes. What do you know what are there within the

water? You can take information from the sastras. It is not

possible for you to see and go into the water, how big, big

animals are there.

Hari-sauri: But it's possible that an animal may disappear

from one planet, but still be on another planet, though, like

that.

Prabhupada: No.

Hari-sauri: Because they claim that even within recorded

history...

Prabhupada: They claim everything. That is... There is no

question. Svarupa Damodara: (indistinct) fossil, they are

called fossil record. Prabhupada: That is another thing. You

can get a dead animal's body, but what is that?

Svarupa Damodara: They claim that many species are extinct.

Prabhupada: How they are extinct?

Hari-sauri: Well, like, they say that within modern history,

Prabhupada: First thing is they are all imperfect speculators.

So what is the value of their sport? We don't take any value

of it.

Rupanuga: They don't know where these animals are, that's all.

Prabhupada: They, simply like child, they are speculating. If

he's

imperfect, then what is the value of his speculation? There is

no value.

Svarupa Damodara: But then what happens at the time of partial

devastation? At the end of Manu, the partial devastation, what

happens to the species?

Prabhupada: Happens means these different ways become

destroyed, but again, during creation, they come in.

Morning Walk New York, July 12, 1976

760712MW.NY

Ramesvara: They are convinced that dinosaurs, these gigantic

animals, were living on this planet millions of years ago.

They found some bones, and they have created the form of the

animal body.

Tamala Krsna: Is it true that there were big dinosaur bodies?

Prabhupada: If they were, it is still now.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, wow.

Prabhupada: We don't say it is extinct.

Tamala Krsna: But you've explained that even if not here then

it must be on another planet.

Prabhupada: Yes, another. This planet, what you have seen?

Ramesvara: That's the point, what we have seen about this

planet? Devotee (1): Could still be here. They found one in,

where is that? In Ireland?

Prabhupada: Cannot be extinct, that is not possible.

Devotee (1): In that lake?

Tamala Krsna: But do you think they were on this planet?

Prabhupada: No, no, may be on this planet, but it doesn't

matter that it is extinct. You have not seen.

Tamala Krsna: No, that's a fact.

Ramesvara: Their idea is that at that time man was living in

the form of half monkey, half man in a cave, and gradually he

evolved to become more civilized.

Prabhupada: That is still there. Kinnaras. Kinnaras means it

is

doubtful whether he is man or monkey.

Tamala Krsna: Wow.

Prabhupada: There is a Kinnara-loka. Kimpurusa. Kinnara. They

are still existing. It is not that they are finished.

Hari-sauri: I was reading a magazine when we were on the

plane, and it was describing this type of monkey man, that

they are being called, they existed in snow wastes.

Prabhupada: Or what is called? The big...?

Tamala Krsna: Orangutan, gorilla.

Prabhupada: Gorilla, they are like men.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, they are. Very much like men. We see them

in the zoo.

Prabhupada: They have got their senses like men.

Hari-sauri: There's another species they call the Yetti. They

say it exists in the Himalayan regions. But they've not been

able to capture one because, uh... But there's been many

citings and reportings of it.

 

 

 

Q. Thanks for the mail, it was really interesting. But still I

found it very confusing, it seems to me that Srila Prabhupada

was contradicting himself (first saying that it's not possible

that some species might be extinct here and exist on other

planets and then saying that it's possible) and he didn't

really answer those questions, but pushed them away and

started putting down Western scientists. So my desire to know

about it is not yet satisfied.

A: This is a bit complex issue to deal with as there is really

not much said in the sastras about the dinos. Sastras, our

main reference, are not to be used as scientific

encyclopedias. Their main point is the spiritual knowledge.

I don't think Srila Prabhupada really contradicted himself -

he never said any species become extinct. He stressed that the

exploration of the Earth is far from being complete so no one

can say that some species 'extinct' in one place can't survive

in another place (or a planet for that matter).

The nature of these conversation was pretty informal and

depended a lot on the context (which disciples were present

etc.). SP sometimes sounded harsh to reprimand his disciples

to disentangle them from their conditioning. The point is that

this is guru's business. The outsiders may consider it

improper or dogmatic but they are in a different position as

they didn't accepted the discipleship. With them therefore SP

dealt in a different way.

Srila Prabhupada was not a scientist and thus didn't feel like

getting into these matters too much ('pushing them away' if

you wish). He many times said that he knows nothing about the

western science but that he can challenge it on the most

important point: the origin of life (from life, not from

matter). If the 'life from matter' theory is disproved the

whole structure built on it will crumble. SP didn't like the

arrogance of the modern scientists which is completely against

the Vedic approach where knowledge leads to humility and

wanted to expose them as ignorant according to the Vedic

standard ('putting them down'). On the other hand he

appreciated those few of modern scientists who actually took

this humble stance (like Einstein).

Ultimately he was not attacking science to becomes famous, to

feel superior or for fun. He worried about the people who

believe it unconditionally and are stuck in the materialistic

way of life which aggravates their suffering. Thus he wanted

them to be freed from their blind faith in science which leads

them on the road to hell (as Chris Rhea sings).

 

 

© 2001 - 2003 VEDA - Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, authors and Jan

Mares