Srila BV Svami Prabhupad is a nitya sakhi

[anadi]

Tripurari Maharaja has very nicely given us the definitive study of Srila Prabhupadas writings concerning

Srila Prabhupadas eternal rasa with Radha Krishna,

a gopa,.

 

 

 

 

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami says:

radha-krsnera lila ei ati gudhathara

dasya-vatsalyadi-bhave na haya gocara

sabe eka sakhi-ganera ihan adhikara

sakhi haite haya ei lilara vistara

sakhi vina ei lila pusta nahi haya

sakhi lila vistariya, sakhi asvadaya

 

"The pastimes of Radha and Krsna are very confidential.

They cannot be understood through the mellows of servitude (dasya rasa),

<font color="blue"> fraternity (sakhya rasa) </font color> or

paternal affection (vatsalya rasa).

Actually, <font color="blue"> only the gopis have the right to appreciate these transcendental pastimes</font color> , and only from them can these pastimes be expanded.

<font color="blue"> Without the gopis</font color> , these pastimes between Radha and Krsna <font color="blue"> cannot be nourished</font color> . Only by their cooperation are such pastimes broadcast.

<font color="blue"> It is their business to <font color="red"> taste</font color> the mellows</font color> ." (C.c. Madhya 8.201-3)

Acording to Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura repeated it in Jaiva Dharma, the pastimes of Radha and Krsna can not be really understood by a gopa.

 

Can we say that Srila Bhaktivedata Svami Maharaja had not the right to appreciate these transcendental pastimes, or understand them?

 

He had his reason to not translate some books like Ujvala Nilamani and Lalita Madhava or not even the tenth Canto of SB in its entirety.

Srila (Bhaktivedanta Svami) Prabhupada has broadcast the pastimes of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna in Sri Caitanya- caritamrta, Krsna Book, Nectar of Devotion and Nectar of Instruction.

If he were a cowherd boy, even the most intimate cowherd boy known as the priya-narma sakha, he would not have had full access to the understanding of Radha Krsna lila.

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada <font color="blue"> is a rupanuga</font color>

In the <font color="blue"> very beginning </font color> of His translation to Bhagavat-gita he writes

 

Sri caitanya mano bhistam sthapitam yena bhutale

Svayam rupah dada mahyam dadati sva padantikam

 

When will <font color="blue"> Sri Rupa Gosvami give me the shelter of his lotus feet?</font color>

Because he understood the innermost desire of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu,

He was able to <font color="blue"> establish His mission </font color> in this world and is very dear to the Lord.

 

What was the Mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in this world?

Sri Rupa Gosvami says in Sri Vidagda Madhava

To give what no other avatar can give:

<font color="blue"> Unnatojivala rasam sva bhakti sryam</font color> , the service of Radha, as a confidential manjari.

[Guest guest]

 

again due to taking evrything literally

you are missing the point.

 

that description is describing the residents

of Vraja, and it is true, only the gopis

have full knowledge, the rest are simply unaware

of the true nature(yogamaya) of the situation.

 

the gopis are all personal expansions of Radha ,

and as such are non different from her, they are

all fully conscious of everything,

while the gopas are jivas, and not even aware

of the divinity of Radha ,Krishna and the Gopis,

so of course they do not understand ,

instead they are fully engaged in those pastimes,

and it is not neccesary or desirable for them

to undersatnd the truth, it would hinder

the flow of casual love.

 

the gopis are all important in rasa lila,as you have quoted,

without them the pastimes cannot be nourished.

why ?

again you quote "it is THEIR business to taste the mellows"

 

why is it their business,not Radha and Krishna's ?

 

Because they are enjoying the rasa with the gopas,

Radha and Krishna are with each other, and they

are non different, the same person, that rasa

is not real,it is only for show.

 

the real rasa is experienced by the gopis,not with Krishna,

who they are non different from, but with the gopas,

who are not aware of all these things,but in fact

are engaged in them.

[anadi]

Sri Rupa Gosvami cannot be a gopa, because he is a special type of gopi ,

She is one of the leaders of the group of nitya sakhis, belonging to the prana sakhis .

 

More explanation about the position of Rupa Gosvami who is none other than Rupa Manjari, from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Jaiva Dharma (Mukhya-rasa Madhurya prema)

 

Sakhis who have the rati which is called tat tad bhava icchatmika do not desire to meet Krsna independently, but are keen to relish Srimati Radhika s sweet mood when She meets with Krsna .

There are five types of sakhis, known respectively as

sakhi

nitya sakhi

prana sakhi

priya sakhi

priyanarma sakhi.

The sakhis who have equal sneha for Sri Radha and Krsna are known as sama sneha,

whereas those who display more sneha towards one or other of Them are called visama sneha.

Sakhis -- as Vrinda and Dhanistha

are visama sneha , having more afection for Krsna.

Nitya sakhis -- as Kasturi Manjari and Mani Manjari

are also visama sneha but they have more afection for Srimati Radhika.

Prana sakhis -- are the chief sakhis in the group of nitya sakhis

The most prominent prana sakhi is Sri Rupa Manjari.

 

Amongst the raganuga sadhakas only those who specifically follow the internal mood of Sri Rupa Manjari are rupanugas.

 

Rupanuga sadhakas are those who with

the external body follow the process of bhajana as shown by Srila Rupa Gosvami, and simultaneously with their internally conceived spiritual body follow the moods of Sri Rupa Manjari as she eternally serves Sri Radha Krnsa in Vraja.

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada is a rupanuga

In the very beginning of His translation to Bhagavat-gita he writes

 

Sri caitanya mano bhistam sthapitam yena bhutale

Svayam rupah dada mahyam dadati sva padantikam

 

When will Sri Rupa Gosvami give me the shelter of his lotus feet?

Because he understood the innermost desire of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu,

He was able to establish His mission in this world and is very dear to the Lord.

 

What was the Mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in this world?

Sri Rupa Gosvami says in Sri Vidagda Madhava

To give what no other avatar can give:

Unnatojivala rasam sva bhakti sryam , the service of Radha, as a confidential manjari.

 

[Guest guest]

The opinion of Sripad Tripurari Maharaja regarding the svarupa of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is based firmly in sastra as well as being corroborated by the spiritual thinking of his siksha guru B.R. Sridhara Swami.

 

It will not do any good to argue this point really. If you have some bhava and some realization in this regard - good. Otherwise simply arguing about this from a mundane perspective will lead to offenses.

 

In terms of this Sripad B.V. Narayana Maharaja and B.R. Sridhara Maharaja are of different opinions. Both can be supported with sastric evidence. Leave it at that.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[anadi]

Dear Audarya lila prabu

dandavat pranama

How do you reconcile that a folower of Rupa is a sakha?

 

And how can you accept that the sakhas (the nitya parikars and the bhajan siddha) are in madhura rasa with the gopis?

The only visaya tattva is Sri Brajendra nandan Krsna.

No one else.

 

 

PS

When he is like Sri Caitanya Mahaprabu, in the mood of Srimati Radhika he is on the position of asraya tattva.

That is why it is said that he is so much merciful,

because he took this position, of Srimati Radhika.

And that is why it is said that She is most merciful and can understand us.

Ja Krsna is sarva jnana (the all knowing) in His oppulent form, but in His sweet form He is mugdhata, not knowing, by the arrangements of His own lila shakti, oh, for the purpose of tasting rasa.

 

 

dandavat pranama

[Guest guest]

Dear Anadi,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.

 

All Gaudiyas are followers of Rupa Goswami and are therefore called Rupanugas. The term also means, in a specific sense, following the particular bhava of Rupa Manjari - but it also has a general meaning.

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakur has stated that the svarupa is inherent in the jiva and that it is uncovered through sadhana. We are followers of that conception.

 

My own opinion on the matter is that we should be careful in how we think about all these issues. In Goloka Vrndavana all are our Gurus and all are our worshipable superiors.

 

Shall we think that Mahaprabhu came only to deliver those in srngara rasa? Madhurya means sweet and all rasas in Goloka are sweet.

 

Remember this - whatever rasa one is in is best - it is only from an objective position that Krsna dasa Kaviraja has given a heirarchy and established srngara rasa as supreme.

 

If you want the spiritual reasoning that backs up the idea that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami was in Sakhya rasa follow this link:(I've included a comment giving some idea about the extent to which those in sakhya rasa are involved in madhurya)

 

http://www.swami.org/sanga/archives/pages/volume_two/m83.html

 

Srimati Jadurani has said 'Pujyapada Tripurari Maharaja has given a poem about Subala-sakha serving in the forest bowers (kunjas), though he did not give a sastric reference for that poem. A cowherd boy would not sing this song.'

 

Note: This is a verse from Rupa Goswami's Ujjvala-nilamani chapter two, verse 14. In this chapter the extent to which Krsna's friends are involved in madhurya-rasa is explained. Subala's friendly love for Krsna is very much involved in this, to the extent that Rupa Goswami has called it "sakhi-bhava" in his Radha-Krsna Gonnodesa dipika.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

 

 

[DayalGovinda]

Dear Anadi,

 

I feel that it would be worth your while to leave topics alone for which you are not suited to discuss from a point of realisation.

I mean no offence but there is evidence in the Shastra (including Jaiva Dharma) where 2 disciples of the same Guru may see him in a different light.

 

Some may see Prabhupada in one Rasa, one in another. My Guru maharaj is giving his feeling based on study of Prabhupada's writings on the jaladuta and also Sridhara Maharaj's opinion.

 

To argue this point is futile.

 

Even dasya rasa is far far above our heads, yet some of us feel qualified to talk about the highest trancendental mellow as if it is very easy to attain.

As Sridhara maharaj has said (and I paraphraise): "In that land we have no rights", Krsna takes us there and engages us as he sees fit. All we need concern ourselves with is sincere service to Sri Guru and chanting Krsna nama. All else will some from this.

 

All of these terms that you talk so freely about are far beyond our comprehension. It would be best not to venture "where angels fear to tread"

 

We should look to ourselves as proof of our advancement. Do we still experience Lust, anger, hate and greed? If so then we have no place trying to force our way into higher topics. The guardians of that land (which Srila Sridhara Maharaj is considered as being) will barre our entry.

 

Please take no offence

 

Dayal Govinda dasa

[stonehearted]

anadi asks Audarya-lila: How do you reconcile that a folower of Rupa is a sakha?

 

stone: We don't have to reconcile anything. In Vraja all things are reconciled. Krishna takes care of it.

 

I echo Audarya's admonition against arguing such points for the reasons he and Dayal Govinda have given. I'll add one more: If Srila Prabhupada had thought it important, he would have told us. Instead, he made it clear it was not our business.

[anadi]

Dear Stonehearted Prabhu

my dandavat pranam

 

 

No need to reconcile it.

 

The mood of a gopa is included in the mood of the gopis

as the sakhya rasa in included in the madhurya rasa,

because the higher rasas include the lower ones.

 

And sometimes to be like in the mood of the gopas and other times in the mood of the gopis doesn't mean that one is both, but one belongs to the higher rasa.

Rupa Gosvami and His close associates could give

a drop from the nectar ocean of rasa,

which has everything in it, from top to bottom, from santa to madhurya

If they were not gopis, they could not do it, to the highest extent.

 

A rupa anuga, who follows in the steps of Rupa Manjari,

is of that caliber, a gopi,

otherwise he is not a true follower,

but a pretender,

which I don't dare to say about Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada.

There are many branches in the tree of the movement of Sriman Mahaprabhu.

Of course not all are Rupa anugas.

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada is a gopi

a true Rupa anga, as in the very beginning of His translation to Bhagavat-gita he writes

sri caitanya mano bhistam sthapitam yena bhutale

<font color="blue"> svayam rupah </font color> dada mahyam <font color="blue"> dadati sva padantikam</font color> ,

who was empowered also by Sri Balarama's shakti

to spread the Sri Caitanya mano bhistam

(the innermost desire, the heart of Mahaprabhu

which is unnattojjvala-rasam sva bhakti sriyam)

in the western countries.

 

Maybe someone else see this from another scriptural perspective

 

dandavat pranama

[Guest guest]

 

again you mistakenly take rasa shastra literally,

which is leading you to the wrong conclusions.

 

here you state the fact ;amongst the raganuga sadhakas

only those who specifically follow the INTERNAL mood of

Sri Rupa Manjari are rupanugas.

 

the important word here is INTERNAL, as opposed

to external, what is the external mood of Rupa manjari?

that of a manjari..

what is the INTERNAL mood of Sri Rupa ?

In the bhakti rasamrta sindhu he tells us, praying

that his love for Krishna becomes exactly like that of a young boy for a young girl.

 

That is her internal mood, and as you have stated the rupanuga is one who follows the INTERNAL mood of Sri Rupa,

not the external or manjari mood.

 

this is important to understand, Why is Rupa wanting

to have his mood be like a young boy for a young girl ?

She is a manjari, her external mood is one of affection

in the girl to boy mood, yet her inner mood is something different, Why ?

 

Because these rasa shastras are meant for OUR edification,

they are meant to enlighten us to the real situation,

Radha and the Gopis are the manifestations of Hladini

Shakti, they are the vehicles for the highest

pleasure pastimes , Krishna is non different from them, their real desire is for madhurya rasa with a real

person, Krishna is described as being Radha's puppet,

she pulls the strings and he dances to HER tune.

 

this is very important to understand, Krishna is the

ideal archetype, but not the true beneficiary

of the love of the Gopis, this is why Sri Rupa

prays to love Krishna as a young boy does for a young girl, Sri Rupa understands the hidden truth, Radha

is the real inner enjoying nature of Krishna,

Radha's desire is the desire Sri Rupa wishes to fullfill, and what is that desire ? what does Radha desire ?

Again Sri Rupa has told us the truth, he wishes his love to be like a young boy for a young girl, that would please Radha, love from a young boy, this is the inner mood of rupa manjari, And why does she have this desire ?

because she knows that Krishna and Radha are One

and the same person, and that Radha needs her desires

fullfilled by another person, this role is played

by the Gopis, Radha is enjoying Madhurya rasa through them, and only the gopas can fullfill her/their desires

for love, this is true rasa siddhanta, and the inner hidden meaning of rasa lila.

[anadi]

Speculations

There is no internal and external in Rupa Manjari.

She has not a material body.

Her body is made of bhav.

[Guest guest]

 

i was quoting what you wrote, what is the problem ?

what you believe and what is the truth are not

necessarily the same thing.

 

your entire basis for your conceptions of what is the

truth of rasa lila is the literal words you read.

 

this is why the true nature of these things is called confidential and hidden, they are not readily available

to the person who is not recieving instruction from

an authorized source.

 

You need to re evaluate your vision of what is real

and what is symbolism.

As i asked you earlier, The shastra speaks of the

love and rasa between Radha,Krishna and the gopis,

also the shastra tells us that they are all aspects

of the One supreme personality of godhead.

 

since they are all one,how can there be real rasa and love between them ?

how is this possible ?

doesn't it take two to tango ?

 

the truth is that it is not possible,

and real rasa is between two different people,

that is not speculation, it is fact and

the proper understanding, the misunderstanding

you have is due to not understanding the basic

truth involved in rasa lila,and accepting only the literal descriptions of rasa between Radha ,Krishna

and the gopis.

 

these questions are necessary to be understood

whne dealing in rasa shastra, without the proper understanding everything you read will be misunderstood,

and all of your fantasy meditations will be nothing more

then delusions of grandeur.

 

 

 

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

The opinion of Sripad Tripurari Maharaja regarding the svarupa of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is based firmly in sastra as well as being corroborated by the spiritual thinking of his siksha guru B.R. Sridhara Swami.

 

 

Aside from Sridhara Maharaja's own speculations, where is the sastric basis for Srila Prabhupada's supposedly being of sakhya-bhava?

[Vaishnava_das108]

 

Can we say that Srila Bhaktivedata Svami Maharaja had not the right to appreciate these transcendental pastimes, or understand them? He had his reason to not translate some books like Ujvala Nilamani and Lalita Madhava or not even the tenth Canto of SB in its entirety.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada did in fact begin the translation of the Tenth Canto in Bhubaneshwar, Orissa in 1977. Srila Prabhupada started it in the middle of the night. Pradyumna Prabhu was also awake and was very excited since he could hear Srila Prabhupada dictating the purports on tape.

 

Srila Prabhupada is even reported to have said that he will write the Tenth Canot in such a way that it could never be miscontrued by sahajiyas.

 

Just because he decided to depart this world before the completetion of the Tenth Canto does not necessarily mean that he chose NOT to reveal it, and this also goes for possibly every other rasa-text.

 

In fact, in 1966 Srila Prabhupada is reported to have told Hayagriva das that he would translate EVERYTHING, including Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads, all the sastras.

 

I feel that it is quite erroneous to imply that Srila Prabhupada had his "reasons" not to do all this. It is probably due to a hidden agenda to enhance the glory of Srila Narayana Maharaja by stating that he somehow starts where Srila Prabhupada left off, thus implying that the former is the latter's successor.

[theist]

I haven't read through this thread as I noticed the subject matter is just way over my head. But i did notice this quoted and thought of one response. It seems for years Prabhupada was trying to retire into the background and just translate. he was ambitious and wanted to translate Valmiki Ramayana, Mahabharata, Puranas and the works of the Gosvamis etc.

 

---------

 

This is an excerpt from a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Kitika, Calcutta Feb 16 1972

 

It is a very important question, and I am glad that you have asked me, but I think from now on the GBC men may be consulted in all such matters of temple management and affairs. I have given them everything, so they shall be able to answer all questions, and if they cannot answer from their experience, then I have given answer in my books--and still if they cannot answer, they may ask me. But now we are expanding very rapidly with so many centers throughout the world, and every day I am receiving not less than ten to fifteen important letters. I am always very much encouraged to hear from my disciples and to reply them, but now I am old man and I have inclination for philosophy and translating, and if all day and night I am reading and answering and signing letters then I cannot utilize this, the fag end of my life, to give you so many nice literatures like the Vedas, Upanisads, Puranas, Ramayana, Mahabharata, and other books in our own Gaudiya line, like Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Visvanatha Cakravarti and others. So if the GBC which I have appointed for this task will kindly now assist me in this way, by handling very expertly and with all good consideration all matters of managing, I shall devote my full time to giving you further nice books.

Hoping this will meet you in good health and happy mood.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

ACBS/sda

[Kishalaya]

"to spread the Sri Caitanya mano bhistam

(the innermost desire, the heart of Mahaprabhu

which is unnattojjvala-rasam sva bhakti sriyam)

in the western countries."

 

My best wishes!

 

Your servant,

Kishalaya

 

[Kishalaya]

"Shall we think that Mahaprabhu came only to deliver those in srngara rasa? Madhurya means sweet and all rasas in Goloka are sweet."

 

Or for that matter did He come only to deliver those in

Goloka bhaava??!!!

 

Your servant,

Kishalaya

[anadi]

Dear Kishalaya Prabhu

 

I repeat a post Edited by anadi (03/29/03 01:36 PM)

 

The <font color="red"> mood of a gopa</font color> <font color="blue"> is included </font color> in the <font color="red"> mood of the gopis</font color>

as the sakhya rasa in included in the madhurya rasa,

because the higher rasas include the lower ones.

 

And sometimes to be like in the mood of the gopas and other times in the mood of the gopis <font color="red"> doesn't mean that one is both</font color> , but one <font color="blue"> belongs to the higher rasa</font color> .

Rupa Gosvami and His close associates could give

a drop from the nectar ocean of rasa,

which has everything in it, from top to bottom, from santa to madhurya

<font color="blue"> If they were not gopis, they could not do it, to the highest extent.</font color>

 

<font color="blue"> A rupa anuga</font color> , who follows in the steps of Rupa Manjari,

is of that caliber, <font color="blue"> a gopi,</font color>

otherwise he is not a true follower,

but a pretender,

which I don't dare to say about Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada.

 

<font color="blue"> There are many branches in the tree of the movement of Sriman Mahaprabhu.</font color>

<font color="blue"> Of course not all are Rupa anugas.</font color>

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada is a gopi

a true Rupa anga, as in the very beginning of His translation to Bhagavat-gita he writes

 

sri caitanya mano bhistam sthapitam yena bhutale

svayam rupah dada mahyam dadati sva padantikam ,

 

When will <font color="red"> Sri Rupa Gosvami give me the shelter of his lotus feet</font color> .

No other associte of Mahaprabhu.

Why?

Because Sri Rupa Gosvami is described as the recipient of the mercy of Mahaprabhu.

And what was the result of that mercy?

<font color="blue"> He understood the innermost desire of Sriman Mahprabhu:

the conjugal love in parakya rasa</font color>

<font color="red"> (the innermost desire, the heart of Mahaprabhu

which is unnattojjvala-rasam sva bhakti sriyam) </font color>

 

 

dandavat pranama

 

[anadi]

<font color="blue"> There are many branches in the tree of the movement of Sriman Mahaprabhu.

Of course not all are Rupa anugas. </font color>

 

 

yah kaumara-harah sa eva hi varas ta eva caitra-ksapas

te conmilita-malati-surabhayah praudhah kadambanilah

sa caivasmi tathapi tatra surata-vyapara-lila-vidhau

reva-rodhasi vetasi-taru-tale cetah samutkanthate

 

 

"That very personality who stole away my heart during my youth is now again my master. These are the same moonlit nights of the month of Caitra. The same fragrance of malati flowers is there, and the same sweet breezes are blowing from the kadamba forest. In our intimate relationship, <font color="green"> I am also the same lover</font color> , <font color="red"> yet still my mind is not happy here</font color> . <font color="blue"> I am eager to go back</font color> to that place on the bank of the Reva under the Vetasi tree. That is my desire."

 

 

Srila Krsna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami took this verse form the Padyavali (382), an anthology of verses compiled by Srila Rupa Gosvami and put it in his Caitanya Caritamrita.

 

This verse composed by a mundane poet was spoken by Mahaprabhu, during His ecstatic dancing before Lord Jaganatha.

Most of persons there didn t understand the meaning and mostly misunderstood the meaning, considering inappropriate for a sanyasi, to speak such mundane loving poetry.

 

Only Svarupa Damodara who was there present understood the meaning.

But together three and a half persons understood the real meaning.

 

One of those personalities was Srila Rupa Gosvami.

 

What is the meaning of the verse?

 

As Sriman Mahaprabhu met Lord Jaganatha in the Ratha yatra festival, in the same way,

Srimati Radhika met Lord Krsna at Kurukshetra at the solar eclipse, but

Kuruksetra in not Vrindavan, and Krsna with His royal paraphernalia was not the same Krsna armed with His vamsi flute.

 

Sriman Mahaprabhu covered this:

<font color="blue"> "I am also the same lover, yet still my mind is not happy here. I am eager to go back to that place on the bank of the Reva under the Vetasi tree. <font color="red"> That is my desire</font color> ."</font color>

 

Later Sri Rupa living with Haridasa Thakur, both considering themselves not worth to live together with the other devotees, because of their past relation to the muslim comunity, wrote a sloka where he disclosed the meaning of that verse spoken by Maharabhu.

As Mahaprabhu came every day to bring Jaganatha mahaprasad for Haridasa Thakura, saw that sloka hanging on the roof of the cottage.

He knew that the young Rupa understood His heart.

 

<font color="blue"> There are many branches in the tree of the movement of Sriman Mahaprabhu.

Of course not all are Rupa anugas. </font color>

 

Sri Rupa being in the madhura rasa could understand of course <font color="blue"> all other rasas, whose moods are included in this rasa</font color> .

The material example is that of the earth which includes the qualities of the other five tattvas (smell, taste, form, touch and sound).

[Guest guest]

Dear Anadi,

 

You are making some statements which are not only incorrect but offensive as well. Do you think that you know rasa-tattva better than Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhara Maharaja? Do you think that he was so ignorant in making his assessment that he would become an offender to his dear God Brother? What you are saying is that in making his assessment of the bhava of A.C. Bhaktivedanta he is calling him a pretender because only a gopi can be called a Rupa anuga. I tell you openly and honestly this is not only wrong but it is an offensive mentality. Besides the fact that you are defining Rupanuga in a narrow fashion which Srila Prabhupada never did. He stated over and over that a Rupanuga is one who follows the teachings of Rupa Goswami as they are given in Bhakti rasamrta sindhu and other literatures. Again, I have to tell you that you are thinking materally about that which is spiritual - in that I have to agree with Shiva.

 

Please try to understand that there is room for different visions - but to insinuate that those with a different vision and feeling on the matter are offensive and in essense labeling Srila Prabhupada a pretender is too much. In your zealousness for the highest rasa you will now denigrate those in other rasas? It is madness.

 

Here is the Sanga where the words of Sridhara Maharaja on this issue are given:

 

Highest rasa: 'Fools rush in'

Monday, June 12, Nirjal Ekadasi.

 

"Sakhya rasa is not to be neglected. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Is it an intellectual field that we can pass resolutions, pass remarks in any way we like?" - Swami B.R. Sridharadeva Maharaja

 

Q. In 'Srila Prabhupada: Sakhya or Srngara-rasa?' Swami B.V. Tripurari said it was the opinion of Swami B.R. Sridhara Maharaja that it was reasonable to conjecture that Srila Prabhupada may be situated in sakhya-rasa (like Subala). What were Srila Sridhara Maharaja's exact words?

 

A. Although it is the expressed wish of Swami B.V. Tripurari not to further discuss this topic here, the beauty, depth and devotion of Srila Sridhara Maharaja's words on this subject compel us to reproduce it here for the the pleasure and edification of our readers. [The editors]

 

Om Visnupada Bhakti Raksaka Sridharadeva Goswami Maharaja speaks about his beloved Godbrother Om Visnupada Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. The following is from a room conversation recorded at the Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math, Nabadvip, India.

 

I think he has given the hint - his own "autobiography." When he was going to America, on the journey he expressed his feeling to play with Krishna in sakhya-rasa.

 

kata bane chutachuti bane khai lutaputi sei din kabe habe mor

"Running and frolicking in the many forests of Vraja I will roll on the ground in spiritual ecstasy. O when will that day be mine."

 

This was his "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna"

When he was passing through the Atlantic he gave vent to feelings that may be the salient points in his Vraja-lila. It struck me like that - Vrindavan sakhya-rasa.

 

When he departed from this consciousness of worldly preaching propaganda, then he is there. It is clearly expressed in these sayings there in the Atlantic. He discovered the unmanifest, aprakat pastimes in Vrindavan, and in Vrindavan he established Krishna-Balarama and Gaura-Nitai. That is indicative of sakhya-rasa. From this we can conclude that he is in sakhya-rasa and he has entered into those pastimes. This is my understanding about his present position.

 

He has expressed himself, his eternal position, the acme of his aspiration. In Vrindavan he has established Balarama and Krishna and Nitai Gaura, and he is saying like that, Nitai Gaura are Krishna and Balarama. It's almost clear that he comes from that group. And now he's again there. Hare Krishna.

 

He expressed his own position in eternal lila in his poem. I conjecture like that. Hare Krishna! In his diary in Bengali he wrote, "Today I cooked some bati-caccari. It was quite delicious. So I ate something. Today I expressed my inner feelings to my friend and wrote a poem about that."

 

And that friend came to his aid. He was so earnest in his prayer to Krishna that he might be able to discharge the duty that had been given to him by his Guru Maharaja that Krishna came down to help him - his friend helped him in this propaganda work. So saktyavesa-avatara. I take him; I cannot but take him to be so.

 

Addressing Krishna he wrote, "You are my eternal friend. Forgetting You, I have come to this world and I have been suffering the kicking of Maya, the goddess of misconception. If You come to help me in this campaign, then after finishing this I can again join You. When I shall be united with You again I shall wander along with You the whole day in keeping the cows in the forest. Running this side and that side in the jungle, in the forest. And then, lutaputi, to fall on the ground in different shows of play. I aspire after that day. I have got this good chance to serve my Gurudeva. For that reason my heartfelt appeal to You is that You please come to help me. I am Your eternal servitor, therefore so much aspiration I have got for You. You, no other, are my only resort."

 

So after performing this service he aspires after a life in the cow-keeping lila of Krsna, and he is appreciating that sort of friendly service of Krsna very much from the core of his heart, his aspiration after finishing his worldly preaching campaign.

 

I take it that Nityananda Prabhu has given some special recognition to the section of the Suvarna varnik community from which Swami Maharaja has come. He has special grace for that particular section and the preaching about Gauranga, and this is mentioned in the scriptures. The Suvarna varnik are the most favorite section of Nityananda Prabhu. It is mentioned in the sastra, Caitanya Bhagavata. I thought that Nityananda Prabhu is also in charge of preaching about Mahaprabhu's glory. So I took it that Nityananda Prabhu must have awakened some special dedication in him in his last days which helped him to inundate, with such an inconceivable magnitude, the whole of the world.

 

But that does not mean that he was nothing before such delegated power came in him. That delegation may only come in a proper place, just as in other saktyavesa avatars, the sakti accepts a particular place and that is not an ordinary thing. One must be a proper receptacle to receive that. Saktyavesa. Does it mean that when the delegation comes it will enter some bad thing? This supposition is mischievous, and those that will make this mischief out of my statement regarding the delegation of Nityananda entering him will diminish faith. They will prepare the field for becoming atheists. This is suicidal, to propagate in that line.

 

And the sakhya rasa is also not to be neglected. Dasa Gossami who is thought to hold the highest position of madhurya rasa, our prayojana acarya himself says, sakhayam me namasta nityam. What does it mean? Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Is it an intellectual field that we can pass resolutions, pass remarks in any way we like in our fashion? No. Dasa Goswami who is posted in the highest position of the prayojana tattva, the acarya of prayojana in madhurya rasa of Radha dasyam, he says that "I will try to show my reverence to sakhya."

 

It is not a play thing. This is very rarely to be found. We must go to that plane and then we should deal with these things. Sakhya rasa is a very small thing? What is this? From a distance I want to show my respect to sakhya rasa. That should be tendency of a real devotee, and not to disregard all these things.

 

Om Visnupada Bhakti Raksaka Sridharadeva Goswami Maharaja

 

Anadi, I hope you can catch what Maharaja is saying here and be more cautious in your thoughts and words.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

The reason they have such a problem with the idea

that sakhya rasa is also involved in madhurya

pastimes is because they are not understanding

what is the true nature of Radha Krishna

and the gopis.

 

when that is illuminated properly then it will become clear, Radha dasyam, what pleases Radha ?

the gopis are her friends,and her expansions,

where is their heart ?

 

do they desire rasa more with other girls or other boys?

what is their desire, that is neccesary to understand.

 

Is Krishna able to satify their desire for madhurya ?

After all he is non different from them, it is the gopas

who steal their hearts, the manjaris may have a peripheral role, but the gopis are young ladies

and have a desire beyond what the manjaris

can offer.

 

So in this way Srila Prabhupada can be understood, as the dearest friend of Krishna.

 

[anadi]

Dear Audarya lila Prabhu,

I most humbly apologies if I was offensive to someone.

I pray that they will forgive a foolish person.

I don't know anything about rasa, and I know that you know it, I am only a parrot.

 

<font color="blue"> First you say</font color>

All Gaudiyas are followers of Rupa Goswami and are therefore called Rupanugas. The term also means, in a specific sense, <font color="red"> following the particular bhava of Rupa Manjari </font color> - but <font color="blue"> it also has a general meaning</font color> .

<font color="blue"> In the next post</font color>

you take only one side of the meaning of Rupa anuga, but with additional commentaries,

"Besides the fact that you are defining Rupanuga in a narrow fashion which Srila Prabhupada never did. He stated over and over that <font color="blue"> a Rupanuga is one who follows the teachings of Rupa Goswami</font color> as they are given in Bhakti rasamrta sindhu and other literatures. Again, I have to tell you that you are thinking materally about that which is spiritual - <font color="blue"> in that I have to agree with Shiva.</font color> "

 

What means to be a Rupa anuga ? to follow His teachings.

This is true on a certain level.

In the <font color="blue"> svarupa lakshana </font color> (not a general meaning) a Rupa anuga is <font color="red"> one that follows His moods.</font color>

As you are acquainted with rasa, you know what was His mood.

And this is the real meaning, svarupa lakshana of Rupa anuga.

 

If Srila BV Svami Prabhupad, were not a Rupa anuga, in the svarupa lakshana, why would he used that prayer in the beginning of the Bhagavat-gita

in which <font color="blue"> he hopes for the shelter of the Rupa Gosvami s feet, </font color>

which is the <font color="blue"> same prayer that was spoken by Srila Narotama dasa Thakur</font color> , <font color="red">

which we know that he was a servant of the gopis, a manjari ?</font color>

 

Srila BV Svami Prabhupad insisted that the managala arati should start with Sri Gurvastakam prayers by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in which His disciples sing these prayers to <font color="red"> him</font color> .

Verse six, beginning "nikunja yuno rati keli siddhyai", describes the spiritual master as <font color="blue"> "very dear, because he is expert at <font color="red"> assisting the gopis in making tasteful arrangements</font color> for the perfection of Sri Sri Radha Krsna's conjugal loving affairs within the groves (kunjas) of Vrndavan." </font color>

 

Who assist the gopis <font color="red"> in making tasteful arrangements</font color> for the perfection of Sri Sri Radha Krsna's conjugal loving affairs within the groves (kunjas) of Vrndavan.

<font color="red"> The manjaris.</font color>

 

Every morning before his Srimad Bhagavatam class he used to sing, "jaya radha-madhava kunjabihari, jaya gopi jana vallabha giri-varadhari: Krsna is the lover of Radha. He displays many amorous pastimes in the groves of Vrndavana. <font color="blue"> He is the lover of the gopis</font color> , the lifter of Govardhana".

 

 

kata bane chutachuti bane khai lutaputi sei din kabe habe mor

"Running and frolicking in the many forests of Vraja I will roll on the ground in spiritual ecstasy. O when will that day be mine."

 

 

 

Is this a prove that Srila BV Svami Maharaja was a sahka?

Why not someone in dasya rasa?

Why not in madhrya rasa? Are the manjaris not in the position to "Running and frolicking in the many forests of Vraja?

Or roll on the ground in spiritual ecstasy?

 

in Vrindavan he established Krishna-Balarama and Gaura-Nitai. That is indicative of sakhya-rasa.

 

 

 

If I my guru jana established Kesavaji gaudiya matha or Rupa Sanatana Mandir, does that mean that they are sakhya rasa of dasya,, or madhurya?

Balarama Himself has a gopi form in which He takes part in the rasa dance.

And without the mercy of Sri Sri Gaura Nitai, nobody comes to Braja.

 

It is a little bit strange that in the beginning you pretended that for you both statements are difficult to be contradicted , but now you changed your mind

Or maybe in this connection you never changed your mind.

 

Please forgive me for any offence, even if I don't want to do it, but

it still may appear like this.

 

Dandavat pranama

All glories to sri guru and gaura

[DayalGovinda]

Dear Anadi,

You seem to have completely misunderstood what my Guru Bhai, Audarya Lila Prabhu, has been saying.

 

I beg that you re-read carefully what he has written in light of your last post.

 

He suggests that Srila BR Sridhara Maharaj is in the position to make such observations about Srila Prabhupada whereas we are not.

 

This view of Srila Prabhupada is taken from the absolute plane, not from book knowledge. It is true that you may be able to use the language of Rasa Tattva, but until that plane is truly realised such word play is useless.

 

It would benefit you greatly if you bowed your head to the position of Srila Sridhara Maharaj ("Bhakti Rakshak", the guardian of devotion. A title bestowed by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada) instead of trying to force your way in a discussion of such high topics.

 

If we read or discuss such topics with any sense of pride (in knowing the details and complex terms) or desire in thinking that we are worthy of such things. Then we may have our entry barred.

 

I pray that you reconsider continuing with this futile thread.

 

in service

Dayal Govinda dasa

[anadi]

Dear Dayal Govinda,

 

I am not worth to bow my head to the lotus feet of Srila Bhakti Rakshak Srdhara Maharaja.

 

In this thread is not anadi and Srila BR Sridhara M.

but anadi and audarya lila prabhu and in a sense

Srila BV Narayana M and Srila BR Sridhara M

 

I am not worth to bow my head to the lotus feet of my gurudeva, but by His mercy he accepted me.

I don't do nothing else but to repeat the words of my guru jana and of my gurudeva Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, whose first pranama mantra is

 

nama om visnu padaya radhika yai pria atmane

sri srimad bhaktivedanta narayana iti namine.

 

I offer pranama to om visnupada Sri Srimat bhaktivedanta narayana, who is very dear to Srimati Radhika.

 

That he is a tattva darshi, I am not in the position to say something.

 

dandavat pranam

 

all glories to sri guru and gaura

jaya radhe!

[stonehearted]

anadi: Srila BV Svami Prabhupad insisted that the managala arati should start with Sri Gurvastakam prayers by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in which His disciples sing these prayers to him .

Verse six, beginning "nikunja yuno rati keli siddhyai", describes the spiritual master as "very dear, because he is expert at assisting the gopis in making tasteful arrangements for the perfection of Sri Sri Radha Krsna's conjugal loving affairs within the groves (kunjas) of Vrndavan."

 

stone: Why would this exclude the priya-narma sakhas, who also do so. AS I understand it (and I'm certainly no expert in rasa, even theoretically) the priya-narma sakhas, especially when Krishna is not around, serve under the direction of Radha's sakhis.

 

The same goes for "Jaya Radha-Madhava"; vihara means enjoyment or pastimes, and Krishna enjoys different kinds of pastimes in the groves of Vraja, as far as I understand.

 

We have been cautioned by our gurus to be very discriminating in discussing such things. When Srila Prabhupada was asked to talk about the rasa dance, he replied (on more than one occasion, I believe) that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu never discussed these things, even among, according to him, "Prabhu nityananda, Sri Advaita, Gadadhara, Srivasa." He discussed them in the company of Ramananda Raya, Svarupa Damodar, Sikhi Mahiti, and Madhavai-devi. It's nice you have the time and inclination for studying our acharyas' writings. It would be even nicer to realize them. At least until then, we are advised to keep such things above us, as worshipable. I think such caution is all that is being advised by Audarya-lila and Dayal Govinda. I hope you can appreciate that.