The concept of one-ness and distinct-ness (non difference and difference)(1)

[Guest guest]

 

wrong.

 

God is one,not two.

 

Radha and Krishna are the same person, that is

the shastric conclusion.

 

There is not other person in their rasa,

Krishna cannot have rasa with Radha, she is

the same person in different dress.

 

this is simple ,what is the problem ?

 

The rasa described between them is only what

is seen by the devotees, internally, they are the same

EXACT person.

 

Can you have rasa with yourself ?

would you want to try ?

Why do you think God does ?

 

God is one person,in different manifestations,

Radha is not interested in rasa with a puppet,

As Caitanya Caritamarta says, Krishna is Radha's

puppet, she controls him,pulls his strings.

 

this is reality from the view of God, this is absolute

reality.

 

Do not think that god is a weirdo, wanting to play

make believe with him/herself, that is not attractive

to God,it is only a display.

 

As Prabhupada writes,Krishna lila is a DISPLAY of

the pleasure potency, it is only a display.

 

they are one person, the same person, anything else

is a delusion.

[Guest guest]

 

i would post it here but can't find it online.

 

so ,to understand ,you need to read srimad bhagavatam

canto 2,chapter 4, verse 9, and 10 and especially the purport to verse 10.

 

 

this explains nicely the reality, that you seem to be confused about,if anyone has this available,

paste here.

[Guest guest]

siddhanta-tas-tva-bhede 'pi srisa-krsna-svarupayoh

rasenot-krsyate krsna-rupamesa rasasthitih

(Bhakti-Rasamrta Sindhu, Purva-vibhaga 2.59)

 

 

Theoretically there is no difference in the forms of Narayana and Krishna. Still then from pastimes point of view Sri Krishna form is superior. This form depicts various qualities rasas.

 

 

harimtvekam tattvam viddhi-siva-suresa-pranamitah

yadevendam brahma prakrtirahitam tattanumahah

paratma tasyamso jagadanugato visvajanakah

sa vai radha-kanto nava-jalada-kantiscidudayah

(Dva-mula siksa)

 

Sri Hari, the worshipable Lord of Brahma, Siva and Indra, is the only Supreme Personality of God head. Brahman, which is impersonate and powerless is the effulgence of the transcendental body of Sri Hari. All pervading Paramatma is a part of Sri Hari - opulence of the Lord. That Sri Hari is our black complexioned eternal form Sri Radhaballabha.

 

------------------------

 

the following is from jiva goswamis commentary

on brahma-samhita

 

In these two verse the author describes the primary place of the great eighteen-syllable mantra, which is worshipped by all other mantras. The yantra pattern described here is worthy of the most respectful worship. The pattern is described as a hexagon eclipsing the bija-syllable (klim) inscribed in a diamond (vajra-kilakam). The word "ca" indicates the four (catur) other words of the mantra also written in diamond around the bija-syllable. In this way the six words of the mantra are inscribed on the six parts of the hexagon.

The word "prakrti" indicates the place where the mantra is written. Because Sri Krishna is its creator, that prakrti is also Sri Krishna Himself. The word "purusa" indicates Sri Krishna in His aspect as the supreme controller. Both "prakrti" and "purusa" are this situated within the hexagon. Sri Krishna may be considered in four ways: 1. as the origin of the mantra; 2. as the syllables of the mantra; 3. as the supreme controller; and 4. as the ultimate object of worship. Sri Krishna's nature as the origin of the mantra and the supreme controller have already been described here. Sri Krishna position as the supreme controller was described in the first verse of this Brahma-samhita in the words "isvarah paramah krsnah". Lord Krishna's id entity as the syllables of the mantra will be described later in the Brahma-samhita in the words "kamah krsnaya". Sri Krishna's identity with the sacred mantra is also explained in the following words of the Hayasirsa-pancaratra:

"The wise know there is no difference between the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the mantras that contain His holy name. There is no difference between the Supreme Person and His holy name."

This is confirmed by the following words of Gopala-tapani Upanishad (1.16):

"Although originally one, air becomes the five life-airs in the bodies of all living entities. In the same way Lord Krishna becomes this five-word mantra."

Sometimes Goddess Durga is also described as the supreme controller. This is also correct because there is no difference between the potencies and Lord Krishna, the master of all potencies. This is confirmed by the following words of the Gautamiya Tantra:

"Krishna is Durga. Durga is Krishna. One who sees that they are different will not become liberated from the cycle of repeated birth and death."

Durga is the personal potency of Lord Krishna, and therefore she is Lord Krishna Himself. For this reason Durga should not be considered manifested from a portion of the Lord's illusory potency Maya. This fact is confirmed by the following stat ement of the Nirukti:

"Even is one continually worships her, durga is still difficult to understand."

Durga is also described in Narada-pancaratra, in the following conversation of Sruti and Vidya:

"Durga is the supreme goddess. She is an incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. She is the transcendental potency of the Lord. She is manifested from the form of Lord Maha-Vishnu.

"Simply by understanding her one immediately attains the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not otherwise.

"She is identical with Gokula's queen Sri Radha, who possesses a great treasure of love for Krishna. By her grace the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all living entities, is easily understood.

"She is the potency of personified devotional service. She worships Her beloved Supreme Lord. Because She is understood only with great difficulty, the saintly devotees call her "durga" (difficult to understand). She is the personal potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and she is always filled with the nectar of love for Him.

"From her is manifested the maha-maya potency, the controller of all conditioned souls, who covers them with illusion. By this maha- maya potency the residents of the entire world are bewildered into thinking themselves identical with their external material bodies."

In the Sammohana Tantra, Durga herself declares:

"I am Durga. I possess all virtues. I am not different from Sri Radha, the eternal, supreme goddess of fortune."

In this way the word "durga" is explained. In this verse of Brahma-samhita the words "premananda" and "mahananda" refer to the fullest development of transcendental bliss. "Jyoti-rupena" means "self-manifested", and "manuna" means "by the mantra". The mantra is accompanied by the bija-syllable (kama-bijena sangatam). The kama-bija syllable in this mantra elaborately described in another passage where the independence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is explain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sometimes Goddess Durga is also described as the supreme controller. This is also correct because there is no difference between the potencies and Lord Krishna, the master of all potencies. This is confirmed by the following words of the Gautamiya Tantra:

 

 

"Krishna is Durga. Durga is Krishna. One who sees that they are different will not become liberated from the cycle of repeated birth and death."

 

Durga is the personal potency of Lord Krishna, and therefore she is Lord Krishna Himself. For this reason Durga should not be considered manifested from a portion of the Lord's illusory potency Maya. This fact is confirmed by the following stat ement of the Nirukti:

 

 

"Simply by understanding her one immediately attains the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not otherwise.

 

 

"She is identical with Gokula's queen Sri Radha, who possesses a great treasure of love for Krishna. By her grace the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all living entities, is easily understood.

 

 

this is reality, one who sees Krishna as different from durga,who is identical to radha,WILL NOT BECOME LIBERATED !

 

 

This is the conclusion of the topmost philosopher

in the gaudiya line, Sri Jiva, Krishna,Radha,Durga

are all one,not two, those who see them as being

different will not be liberated.

 

this is simple, don't make it complicated.

[Guest guest]

We start again with the basic knowledge of sakti tattva and will go to the higher understanding

as given in Jaiva Dharma of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

Babaji:

parakhyäyäh sakter aprthag api sa sve mahimani

sthito jiväkhyäm sväm acid-abhihitäm tämà tri-padikäm

sva-tantrecchah saktim sakala-visaye prerana-paro

vikärädyaih sünyam parama-purusño ‘yam vijayate

Dasa-müla (3)

Athough Çré Bhagavän is non-different from His inconceivable

transcendental potency (parä-sakti),

He has His own independent nature and desires.

(as His saktis too, although He is param Isvara)

His parä-sakti consists of three aspects –

cit-sakti (spiritual potency),

jiva-sakti (marginal potency), and

mäyä-çakti (external potency) –

and He always inspires them to engage in their respective functions.

That para-tattva (Supreme Absolute Truth), even while performing all these activities, still remains immutable and is eternally situated in the fully transcendental

svarüpa of His own glory.

Vrajanatha: The brähmanas declare that the brahma form of the para-tattva has no sakti, and they say that His sakti is only manifest in His Isvara form.

I would like to hear the conclusions of the Vedas about this.

Bäbäji: The sakti of para-tattva manifests in all of His forms. The

Vedas say:

na tasya käryam karanam ca vidyate

na tat-samaç cäbhyadhikas ca drisyate

paräsya saktir vividhaiva srüyate

sväbhäviki jïäna-bala-kriyä ca

Çvetäsvatara Upanisad (6.7–8)

None of the activities of that para-brahma Paramätmä is mundane, because none of His senses – such as His hands and legs – is material. Thus through the medium of His transcendental body,

He performs His pastimes without any material senses, and He is present everywhere at the same

time. Therefore, no one is even equal to Him, what to speak of being greater than Him.

The one divine potency of Paramesvara has been described in sruti in many ways,

Among which the description of

His jïäna-sakti (knowledge),

His bala sakti(power), and

His kriyä-sakti (potency for activity) are most important. These are also called

cit-sakti or samvit-sakti;

sat-sakti or sandhini-çakti; and

änanda-sakti or hlädini-sakti respectively.

 

[anadi]

We start again with the basic knowledge of sakti tattva and will go to the higher understanding

as given in Jaiva Dharma of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

 

Babaji:

parakhyäyäh sakter aprthag api sa sve mahimani

sthito jiväkhyäm sväm acid-abhihitäm tämà tri-padikäm

sva-tantrecchah saktim sakala-visaye prerana-paro

vikärädyaih sünyam parama-purusño ‘yam vijayate

Dasa-müla (3)

 

Athough Sri Bhagavän is non-different from His inconceivable

transcendental potency (parä-sakti),

<font color="red"> He has His own independent nature and desires.</font color>

(as His saktis too, has her independent nature but is <font color="red"> linked by prema </font color> (love) to Sri Bhagavan)

His parä-sakti consists of three aspects –

cit-sakti (spiritual potency),

jiva-sakti (marginal potency), and

mäyä-sakti (external potency) –

and He always <font color="blue"> inspires them to engage in their respective functions</font color> .

 

That para-tattva (Supreme Absolute Truth), even while performing all these activities, still remains immutable and is eternally situated in the fully transcendental

svarüpa of His own glory.

Vrajanatha: The brähmanas declare that the brahma form of the para-tattva has no sakti, and they say that His sakti is only manifest in His Isvara form.

I would like to hear the conclusions of the Vedas about this.

Bäbäji: The sakti of para-tattva manifests in all of His forms. The

Vedas say:

na tasya käryam karanam ca vidyate

na tat-samas cäbhyadhikas ca drisyate

paräsya saktir vividhaiva srüyate

sväbhäviki jïäna-bala-kriyä ca

Svetäsvatara Upanisad (6.7–8)

 

None of the activities of that para-brahma Paramätmä is mundane, because none of His senses – such as His hands and legs – is material. Thus through the medium of His transcendental body,

He performs His pastimes without any material senses, and He is present everywhere at the same

time. Therefore, no one is even equal to Him, what to speak of being greater than Him.

The one divine potency of Paramesvara has been described in sruti in many ways,

Among which the description of

His jnäna-sakti (knowledge),

His bala sakti(power), and

His kriyä-sakti (potency for activity) are most important. These are also called

cit-sakti or samvit-sakti;

sat-sakti or sandhini-sakti; and

änanda-sakti or hlädini-sakti respectively.

 

[anadi]

He has His own independent nature and desires.

(as His saktis too are endowed with the shatantra, independence potency, <font color="red"> but linked by prema to bhagavan</font color> )

 

"In the evening Krsna and Balarama, along with the boys and cows, returned to Vrndavana playing their flutes. As They approached the village, all the gopis became very joyous. Throughout the day the gopis used to think of Krsna while He was in the forest, and in His absence they were considering one moment to be like twelve years."*

Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.19.16.

"The gopis' <font color="red"> mind and intelligence became absorbed in thoughts of Krsna</font color> . They all imitated the activities of Krsna and His speeches. Due to their heart and soul being completely given to Krsna, they began to chant His glories, completely forgetting their family interests."*

Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.30.43.

 

"What austerities must the gopis have performed! <font color="blue"> With their eyes they always drink the nectar of Lord Krsna's form, which is the essence of loveliness and is not to be equalled or surpassed</font color> . That loveliness is the only abode of beauty, fame, and opulence. It is self-perfect, ever-fresh, and extremely rare."*

Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.44.15

 

He has His own independent nature and desires.

(as His saktis too are endowed with the shatantra independence potency, <font color="red"> but linked by prema </font color> to sri bhagavan)

 

[gHari]

Post deleted by gHari

[anadi]

One wants to establish that Bhagavan and His energy

are one (and non different),

because one think that really <font color="blue"> Krsna is not in madhurya rasa with the gopis</font color> .

In one’s opinion that would mean that <font color="red"> Krsna has rasa with Himself</font color> .

In his opinion it must be that <font color="blue"> the gopis and gopas are in madhurya rasa</font color> .

 

If that person go further in his speculation he should admit that

gopis and gopas are both the energy of Bhagavan,

and both according his statements

gopis and gopas are one with Bhagavan (and non different).

Than in his opinion the statement the gopis and gopas are in madhurya rasa came to

<font color="red"> Bhagavan has rasa with Himself</font color> .

 

The moment one accepts the differences between

- Bhagavan and Sakti

- Different forms of Bhagavan

- Different forms of Sakti

Than one can come to the palace of rasa.

Without foundation, no palace.

 

If one wants to establish that Bhagavan and His energy are one

(and non different),

he doesn’t belong to the gaudya vaisnavas,

what to say of being in the line of rupa Gosvami.

 

[pelastration]

Hello All!

 

In your discussion you might find it usefull to SEE what you are discussing about in WORDS.

 

Working on a TOE (Theory of Everything) I discovered the universal cosmic manifold which is also described in Hinduism. This manifold is amazing simple and can be understood without maths. In applying this manifold everything can be analyzed and explained.

 

Remember:

The Lord on account of Maya is perceived as manifold - Brhadaranyaka Upanishad II-v 19

 

Gita, Ch. 7, Verse 4.

"I am endowed with two Shaktis, namely the superior and the inferior natures; the field and its knower (spirit is the knower of the field; matter is the field.) I unite these two".

 

Gita,Ch.13, verse 26.

"Wherever a being is born, whether unmoving or moving, know thou Arjuna, that it is from the union between the field and the knower of the field".

(Purusha is the knower of the field; Prakriti is the field; Shiva is another name for the knower of the field and Shakti is the field; Spirit is another name for the knower of the field and Matter (Prakriti) is the field).

 

Take your time and check. http://www.hollywood.org/cosmology (= 16 pages)

 

Cosmological concept:

When postulating a membrane that is unbreakable and infinite stretchable... a very simple manifold explains phenomena such as the "crack" into two pieces of space-time in a four and a six dimensional universe (Kaku), black-holes and funneling, space-curvature, quantum leap/the point of singularity , etc.

 

By the manifold the membrane has the ability to subdivide itself in infolded multi-layered areas/islands which act as strings.

 

A tensegrite field (unbreakable elastic membrane - cfr. Buckminster) with tubular properties will create an "extra layer" when it penetrates itself, creating thus a special manifold. I call this pelastration. That manifold can pelastrate again or make combinations and interactions or other pelastrations with other parts of the tensegrite field. = multiplication by division, subdivisions, 'islands = fundamental particles' etc.. To the observer the layering creates 'mass' and "tension", and the friction between the layers creates "resonance". The "angles of acceptance" create the geometry which bring us sacred Platonic shapes  but also determinate our chemistry. On mathematical level it becomes possible to prove very simply that 5 is not always 5 (and 3+2 is not the same as 2+3). Think about the quantum cat. The simple mechanism of pelastration explains every energetic level, and can be understood without mathematics. It shows that we all are connected.

Dirk Laureyssens (Belgium)

[Guest guest]

PURPOT SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM,CANTO 2,chapter 4,TEXT 10

A.C.Bhaktivedanta

 

"The expansions of different forms of the lord,as from Krishna to Baladeva to Sankarsana,from Sankarsana to Vasudeva,from Vasudeva to Aniruddha,from Aniruddha to Pradyumna,and then again to second Sankarsana and from him to the Narayana-Purusavataras,AND INNUMERABLE OTHER FORMS,

WHICH ARE COMPARED TO THE CONSTANT FLOWING OF THE UNCOUNTABLE WAVES OF A RIVER,ARE ALL ONE AND THE SAME."

[Guest guest]

 

this

is from JIVA GOSWAMI, if you disagree with him,

and believe otherwise, you need to

change to HIS vision, which is superior to yours.

 

"Sometimes Goddess Durga is also described as the supreme controller. This is also correct because there is no difference between the potencies and Lord Krishna, the master of all potencies. This is confirmed by the following words of the Gautamiya Tantra:

 

"Krishna is Durga. Durga is Krishna. One who sees that they are different will not become liberated from the cycle of repeated birth and death."

 

Durga is the personal potency of Lord Krishna, and therefore she is Lord Krishna Himself. For this reason Durga should not be considered manifested from a portion of the Lord's illusory potency Maya. This fact is confirmed by the following stat ement of the Nirukti:

 

"Simply by understanding her one immediately attains the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not otherwise.

 

"She is identical with Gokula's queen Sri Radha, who possesses a great treasure of love for Krishna. By her grace the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all living entities, is easily understood. "

 

 

 

 

[gHari]

Regarding this important topic of Acintya-BhedABheda, there is an interesting Bhaktivedanta purport in the Caitanya-caritamrita Madhya Lila 9, verses 239-240:<blockquote><center>siddhAnta-zAstra nAhi ‘brahma-saMhitA'ra sama

govinda-mahimA jJAnera parama kAraNa

alpAkSare kahe siddhAnta apAra

sakala-vaiSNava-zAstra-madhye ati sAra

</center>

siddhAnta-zAstra--conclusive scripture; nAhi--there is not; brahma-saMhitAra sama--like the scripture Brahma-saMhitA; govinda-mahimA--of the glories of Lord Govinda; jJAnera--of knowledge; parama--final; kAraNa--cause; alpa-akSare--briefly; kahe--expresses; siddhAnta--conclusion; apAra--unlimited; sakala--all; vaiSNava-zAstra--devotional scriptures; madhye--among; ati sAra--very essential.

 

There is no scripture equal to the Brahma-saMhitA as far as the final spiritual conclusion is concerned. Indeed, that scripture is the supreme revelation of the glories of Lord Govinda, for it reveals the topmost knowledge about Him. Since all conclusions are briefly presented in the Brahma-saMhitA, it is essential among all the VaiSNava literatures.

 

PURPORT

The Brahma-saMhitA is a very important scripture. SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu acquired the Fifth Chapter from the Adi-kezava temple. In that Fifth Chapter, the philosophical conclusion of acintya-bhedAbheda-tattva (simultaneous oneness and difference) is presented. The chapter also presents methods of devotional service, the eighteen-syllable Vedic hymn, discourses on the soul, the Supersoul and fruitive activity, an explanation of KAma-gAyatrI, kAma-bIja and the original MahA-ViSNu, and a detailed description of the spiritual world, specifically Goloka VRndAvana. The Brahma-saMhitA also explains the demigod GaNeza, GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu, the origin of the GAyatrI mantra, the form of Govinda and His transcendental position and abode, the living entities, the highest goal, the goddess DurgA, the meaning of austerity, the five gross elements, love of Godhead, impersonal Brahman, the initiation of Lord BrahmA, and the vision of transcendental love enabling one to see the Lord. The steps of devotional service are also explained. The mind, yoga-nidrA, the goddess of fortune, devotional service in spontaneous ecstasy, incarnations beginning with Lord RAmacandra, Deities, the conditioned soul and its duties, the truth about Lord ViSNu, prayers, Vedic hymns, Lord Siva, the Vedic literature, personalism and impersonalism, good behavior, and many other subjects are also discussed. There is also a description of the sun and the universal form of the Lord. All these subjects are conclusively explained in a nutshell in the Brahma-saMhitA.

</blockquote>

gHari

[gHari]

These indented paragraphs follow the quotation presented initially by Shiva Prabhu from the amazing Bhaktivedanta introduction to Adi Lila. Some of Krsna's questions raise interesting thoughts about the tangent topic evolving on this thread; how is it that He does not know?<blockquote>RAdhA and KRSNa are one, and when KRSNa desires to enjoy pleasure, He manifests Himself as RAdhArANI. The spiritual exchange of love between RAdhA and KRSNa is the actual display of KRSNa's internal pleasure potency.

 

Although we speak of "when" KRSNa desires, just when He did desire we cannot say. We only speak in this way because in conditioned life we take it that everything has a beginning; however, in spiritual life everything is absolute, and so there is neither beginning nor end.

 

Yet in order to understand that RAdhA and KRSNa are one and that They also become divided, the question "When?" automatically comes to mind. When KRSNa desired to enjoy His pleasure potency, He manifested Himself in the separate form of RAdhArANI, and when He wanted to understand Himself through the agency of RAdhA, He united with RAdhArANI, and that unification is called Lord Caitanya. This is all explained by SrIla KRSNadAsa KavirAja in the fifth verse of the Caitanya-caritAmRta.

 

In the next verse the author further explains why KRSNa assumed the form of Caitanya MahAprabhu. KRSNa desired to know the glory of RAdhA's love. "Why is She so much in love with Me?" KRSNa asked. "What is My special qualification that attracts Her so? And what is the actual way in which She loves Me?" It seems strange that KRSNa, as the Supreme, should be attracted by anyone's love. A man searches after the love of a woman because he is imperfect--he lacks something.

 

The love of a woman, that potency and pleasure, is absent in man, and therefore a man wants a woman. But this is not the case with KRSNa, who is full in Himself. Thus KRSNa expressed surprise: "Why am I attracted by RAdhArANI? And when RAdhArANI feels My love, what is She actually feeling?" To taste the essence of that loving exchange, KRSNa made His appearance in the same way that the moon appears on the horizon of the sea. Just as the moon was produced by the churning of the sea, by the churning of spiritual loving affairs the moon of Caitanya MahAprabhu appeared. Indeed, Lord Caitanya's complexion was golden, just like the luster of the moon. Although this is figurative language, it conveys the meaning behind the appearance of Caitanya MahAprabhu. The full significance of His appearance will be explained in later chapters.</blockquote>

I don't think we should get too knocked out or upset if Krsna's personal life is a little too ... too esoteric for our understanding. Just who do we think we are anyway?

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

 

 

you seem to accept what you want from shastra,and reject what you do not.

 

The oneness and difference between vibhinamsa expansions(jiva tattva) of god ,

is one thing, the oneness and difference between

the swamsa expansions(visnu tattva) are another.

 

If you only accept part of the shastra and reject other parts, you will misunderstand .

 

 

10. 20

nityo nityanam cetanas-cetananam

eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman

tam atmastham ye'nupasyanti dhiras-

tesam santim sasvati netaresam

Of the innumerable, eternal, conscious beings, there is one eternal Supreme Being. That Supreme Lord is the maintainer of the innumerable living beings in terms of their different situations, according to individual work and reaction of work. That Supreme Lord is also, by his expansion as Paramatma, present within the heart of every living being. Only those saintly persons who can see, within and without, that same Supreme Lord, cvan actually attain to perfect and eternal peace.

(Katha Upanisad 2.2.13)

 

10. 21

ekasmad-isvaran-nityac-cetana-tadrsa mitham

bhidyante bahavo jivas-tena bhedam sanatanam

 

The above verse explains that both the Supreme Lord and the individual souls (jivas) are eternal and conscious. By affirming their eternal condition, their eternal distinction is also affirmed. (Prameya-Ratnavali 4.5)

 

from C.C adi lila A.C. Bhaktivedanta

 

panca-tattva——eka-vastu, nahi kichu bheda

rasa asvadite tabu vividha vibheda

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

Spiritually there are no differences between these five tattvas, for on the transcendental platform everything is absolute. Yet there are also varieties in the spiritual world, and in order to taste these spiritual varieties one should distinguish between them.

 

 

PURPORT

 

 

In his Anubhasya commentary Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura describes the Panca-tattva as follows: The supreme energetic, the Personality of Godhead, manifesting in five kinds of pastimes, appears as the Panca-tattva. Actually there is no difference between them because they are situated on the absolute platform, but they manifest different spiritual varieties as a challenge to impersonalists to taste different kinds of spiritual humors (rasas). In the Vedas it is said, parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate: "The varieties of energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are differently known." From this statement of the Vedas one can understand that there are eternal varieties of humors, or tastes, in the spiritual world. Sri Gauranga, Sri Nityananda, Sri Advaita, Sri Gadadhara and Srivasa are all on the same platform, but in spiritually distinguishing between them one should understand that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the form of a devotee, Nityananda Prabhu appears in the form of a devotee’s spiritual master, Advaita Prabhu is the form of a bhakta (devotee) incarnation, Gadadhara Prabhu is the energy of a bhakta, and Srivasa is a pure devotee. Thus there are spiritual distinctions between them. The bhakta-rupa (Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu), the bhakta-svarupa (Sri Nityananda Prabhu) and the bhakta-avatara (Sri Advaita Prabhu) are described as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, His immediate manifestation and His plenary expansion, and They all belong to the Visnu category. Although the spiritual and marginal energies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are nondifferent from the Supreme Personality of Godhead Visnu, they are predominated subjects, whereas Lord Visnu is the predominator. As such, although they are on the same platform, they have appeared differently in order to facilitate tasting of transcendental mellows. Actually, however, there is no possibility of one being different from the other, for the worshiper and the worshipable cannot be separated at any stage. On the absolute platform, one cannot be understood without the other.

 

so do not think that one and different in visnu tattva is the same as one and different in jiva tattva.

 

Visnu tattva are all one, and different ,one person

manifest in different ways to taste variety of rasa,

and as is stated above, there is no difference

between them ,but they manifest differences

for pastimes.

 

jiva tattva are one and different , one with visnu

as part and parcel, different then visnu ,

not absoluteley one.

 

from prabhupada lecture

 

 

But our Vaisnava philosophy does not say that. Vaisnava philosophy says, "God is one." Not in... Vaisnava philosophy, you do not think that it is a sectarian. This is based on Vedic conclusion. In the Rg Veda also it is said, "God is one." Tad visnoh. Visnu is paramam padam. He is Supreme. Vedas does not say that Brahma is supreme, or Lord Siva is the supreme, or Goddess Kali is supreme. No. Tad visnoh paramam... This is Rg Veda mantra. And so far Bhagavad-gita is concerned, it is clearly said there by Krsna. He says, "I am the Supreme. Nobody's greater than Me." We find in Brahma-samhita also the same thing, isvarah paramah krsnah [bs. 5.1]. So actually in the Vedas the Supreme Lord is accepted -- Visnu, or Narayana, or Krsna, different names of visnu-tattva. Even Sankaracarya, he also accepts, narayanah parah: "Narayana is the Supreme, Narayana."

 

 

So God is one, but there are different kinds of demigods. That is also a fact. They are accepted as different parts and parcels of God, as we are also. The demigods are also living entities. They are not visnu-tattva. There are visnu-tattva, jiva-tattva and sakti-tattva. Visnu-tattva is the Supreme Absolute Truth, jiva-tattva is part and parcel, and sakti-tattva is the energy of God. So the demigods... You can become a demigod. You can become. If you follow the process how to become, then you become one day the demigod in the sun planet. It is not difficult. You can become one day even Lord Brahma. Just like you can become one day President Nixon, like him. That requires your qualification. But you can... But you cannot become Krsna or Narayana. That is not possible. God is one. You cannot become God, but you can become part and parcel of God, more powerful. That is possible. Just like you are all Americans, but some of you can become a big officer in the government, the president, the secretary, the governor, but their position is better than ordinary man, similarly, the demigods are like that. They are different officers of the Supreme Lord, Krsna. These things are described in Bhagavatam, that the sun rises under the order of the Supreme Lord. The moon rises under the order of the Supreme Lord. The ocean is not disturbing, it is calm and quiet... Not calm and quiet. It is in its position by the order of the Supreme Lord. So everyone is acting under the Supreme Lord. And Caitanya-caritamrta says, ekale isvara krsna: "Yes, the Supreme Lord is only Krsna." Ekale isvara krsna, ara saba bhrtya. Ara, "Any other demigod or even visnu-tattva, even Narayana, Visnu" -- there are so many, I mean to say, manifestation of visnu-tattva -- "they're all subordinate to Krsna." Isvarah paramah krsnah [bs. 5.1].

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

do not reject where shastra and guru tell us

that Radha ,Krishna, and all swamsa expansions

are all one on the absolute level.

 

that means as Prabhupada points out,and jiva goswami points out,and all the rest of the acharyas that god

is one,although for pastimes manifests a variety

of personal expansions, still we are told they are

all one and the same,non different, Radha is Krishna,

krishna is Radha, Krishna is durga, Durga is Radha,

Nityananada is Krishna, and on and on.

 

Jiva Goswami warns , if you think there is any difference

between them ,you will not be liberated.

 

This needs to be understood, It is a mystery ONLY

if you do not understand that God is One ,

then it all becomes mysterious and confusing.

 

so, we are warned, do not try and understand rasa until

you understand god, otherwise you will

not be liberated.

[anadi]

Without to accept the differences one is like an immpersonlist , not like a bhakta.

 

One wants to establish that Bhagavan and His energy

are one (and non different),

because one think that really Krsna is not in madhurya rasa with the gopis .

In one's opinion that would mean that Krsna has rasa with Himself .

In his opinion it must be that the gopis and gopas are in madhurya rasa .

If that person go further in his speculation he should admit that

gopis and gopas are both the energy of Bhagavan,

and both according his statements

gopis and gopas are one with Bhagavan (and non different).

Than in his opinion the statement the gopis and gopas are in madhurya rasa came to

Bhagavan has rasa with Himself .

 

The moment one accepts the differences between

- Bhagavan and Sakti

- Different forms of Bhagavan

- Different forms of Sakti

Than one can come to the palace of rasa.

Without foundation of tattva, no palace of rasa.

 

Basics of Sakti tattva 2 (Jiva Dharma)

 

The words 'parasya saktih' (in Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8)

indicate that of all the Lord's potencies one is the most important. The Vedas never say that the Supreme has a feature without potencies.

When He has qualities, He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

When He has no qualities, He is the impersonal Brahman.

It is the Lord's most important potency that manifests His feature as impersonal Brahman .

In this way it is seen that the impersonal Brahman does indeed have a potency.

That most important potency has been described in the Vedas in many places,

where it is called by many names, such as 'para sakti' , 'svarupa-sakti', and 'cit-sakti'.

The impersonalists imagine that the impersonal Brahman has no potencies. The truth is that the impersonal Brahman is beyond the understanding of the impersonalists .

 

(Svetasvatara Upanisad 4.1):

"Although he has no qualities, by His potencies the Supreme created the great variety of the material world."

That the personal feature of the Lord has potencies is explained in these words of the Vedas (Svetasvatara Upanisad 3.1):

"Employing His potencies, the Supreme Person created the material world."

In this way you can see that the Supreme is never bereft of His potencies. The self-manifest Supreme Lord is always accompanied by them .

 

 

If one wants to establish that Bhagavan and His energy are one

and non different ,

he doesn't belong to the gaudya vaisnavas.

Because of our so called modern science we are educated to think that energy is something impersonal.

But in the spiritual world the different energies are differnt persons ( one and different from para sakti )

[Guest guest]

 

brahma samhita text 46

Bhaktisiddhanta's purport

 

 

 

The light of one candle being communicated to other candles, although it burns separately in them, is the same in its quality. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda who exhibits Himself equally in the same mobile manner in His various manifestations.

 

 

 

purport

 

 

 

The presiding Deities of Hari-dhama, viz., Hari, Narayana, Visnu, etc.. the subjective portions of Krsna, are being described. The majestic manifestation of Krsna is Narayana, Lord of Vaikuntha, whose subjective portion is Karanodakasayi Vishnu, the prime cause, whose portion is Garbhodakasayi. Ksirodakasayi is again the subjective portion of Garhhodakasayi Visnu. The word "Visnu" indicates all-pervading, omnipresent and omniscient personality. In this sloka the activities of the subjective portions of the Divinity are enunciated by the specification of the nature of Ksirodakasayi Vishnu. The per- sonality of Vishnu, the ennbodied form of the manifestive quality (sattva-guna) is quite distinct from that of Sambhu who is adulterated with mundane qualities. Vishnu's subjective personality is on a level with that of Govinda. Both consist of the unadulterated substantive principle. Visnu in the fornn of the manifest causal principle is identical with Govinda as regards quality. The manifestive quality (sattva-guna) that is found to exist in the triple mundane quality, is an adulterated entity being alloyed with the qualities of mundane activity and inertia. Brahma is the dislocated portion of the Divinity, manifested in the principle of mundane action, endowed with the functional nature of His subjective portion; and Sambhu is the dislocated portion of the Divinity manifested in the principle of mundane inertia possessing similarly the functional nature of His subjective portion. The reason for their being dislocated portions is that the two principles of mundane action and inertia being altogether wanting in the spiritual essence any entities, what are manifested in them, are located at a great distance from the Divinity Himself or His facsimiles. Although the mundane manifestive quality is of the adulterated kind, Vishnu, the manifestation of the Divinity in the mundane manifestive quality, makes His appearance in the unadulterated manifestive principle which is a constituent of the mundane manifestive quality. Hence Vishnu is the full subjective portion and belongs to the category of the superior isvaras. He is the Lord of the deluding potency and not alloyed with her. Visnu is the agent of Govinda's own subjective nature in the form of the prime cause. All the majestic attributes of Govinda, aggregating sixty in number, are fully present in His majestic manifestation, Narayana. Brahma and Siva are entities adulterated with mundane qualities. Though Vishnu is also divine appearance in mundane quality (guna-avatara), still He is not adulterated. The appearance of Narayana in the form of Maha-Visnu, the ap- pearance of Maha-Visnu in the form of Garbhodakasayi and the appearance of Visnu in the form of Ksirodakasayi, are examples of the ubiquitous function of the Divinity. Vishnu is Godhead Himself, and the two other guna-avataras and all the other gods are entities possessing authority in subordination to Him. From the subjective majestic manifestation of the supreme self-luminous Govinda emanate Karanodakasayi, Garbhodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and all other derivative subjective divine descents (avataras) such as Rama, etc., analogous to communicated light appearing in different candles, shining by the operation of the spiritual potency of Govinda.

 

-----------------------

 

here is the reality, he states that visnu is identical

qualitatively with govinda.

 

he explains, visnu is all pervading,opmniscient,

and omnipotent.

 

visnu's personality is on the level of govinda.

 

this is the reality, God is one person.

the various swamsa(visnu tattva ) are all

the same as govinda,qualitatively,

they are all equal,

not different.

 

 

 

TEXT 1 VERSE ONE

 

Krsna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.

 

 

purport

 

 

 

Krsna is the exalted Supreme entity having His eternal name, eternal form, eternal attribution and eternal pastimes. The very name "Krsna" implies His love-attracting designation, expressing by His eternal nomenclature the acme of entity. His eternal beautiful heavenly blue-tinged body glowing with the intensity of ever-existing knowledge has a nude in both His hands. As His inconceivable spiritual energy is all-extending, still He maintains His all-charming medium size by His qualifying spiritual instrumentals. His all-accommodating supreme subjectivity is nicely manifested in His eternal form. The concentrated all time presence, uncovered knowledge and inebriating felicity have their beauty in Him. The mundane manifestive portion of His own Self is known as all-pervading Paramatma, Isvara (Superior Lord) or Vishnu (All-fostering). Hence it is evident that Krsna is sole Supreme Godhead. His unrivaled or unique spiritual body of super excellent charm is eternally unveiled with innumerable spiritual instrumentals (senses) and unreckonable attributes keeping their signifying location properly, adjusting at the same time by His inconceivable conciliative powers. This beautiful spiritual figure is identical with Krsna and the spiritual entity of Krsna is identical with His own figure.

 

---------------------

 

here he states, Krishna is sole supreme godhead.

there is no difference between krishna and his swamsa

(visnu) expansions, "they are one and the same "(canto 2

(srimad bhag),visnu and govinda are one,and there

is no other.

 

one god, various manifestations,all one and the same,

not like jiva tattva, visnu tattva is

different.

 

So, Radha and Krishna are identical, these are Srila Prabhupada's ,bhaktivinode's, jiva goswami's,

etc. conclusions.

 

"As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself."

 

Bhaktivedanta swami Caitanya Caritamrta

 

also from Prabhupada

 

“Radha and Krishna are one, and when Krishna desires to enjoy pleasure, He manifests Himself as Radharani. The spiritual exchange of love between Radha and Krishna is the actual display of the internal pleasure potency of Krishna.”

 

 

Why say different ?

why disregard gur,shastra ,sadhu ?

 

One God, not two,not three,one.,only.

 

and finally, from Bhaktivinode-

 

In the form of the narrative of the Bhagavatam, the Transcendental Vraja Lila manifests its descent to the plane of our mundane vision in the symbolic shapes resembling those of the corresponding mundane events. If we are disposed, for any reason, to underestimate the transcendental symbolism of the narrative of the Bhagavatam we are unable to avoid unfavorable and hasty conclusions regarding the nature of the highest, the most perfect and the most charming form of the loving service of the Divinity to which all other forms of his service are as the avenues of approach.

 

 

Radha Krishna lila, he warns DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE TRANSCENDENDTAL SYMBOLISM OF THE BHAGAVATAM,OTHER WISE

YOU WILL BE LOST.

 

 

[Guest guest]

you write, "if one wants to establish that bhagavan and his energies are one and non different ,he doesn't belong to gaudiya vaisnavsim.

 

 

8. 22

radha - purna-sakti, krsna - purna-saktiman

dui vastu bheda nai, sastra-paramana

mrgamada, ta-'ra gandha, - yaiche aviccheda

agni, jalate, yaiche kabhu nahi bheda

radha-krsna aiche sada eka-i svarupa

lila-rasa asvadite dhare dui-rupe

 

Sri Radha is the full energy, and Lord Krsna is the possessor of full power. The two are not different, as evidenced by the revealed scriptures. They are indeed the same, just as musk and its scent are inseparable, or as fire and its heat are nondifferent. Thus Radha and Lord Krsna are one, yet They have taken two forms to enjoy the mellows of pastimes. (Caitanya-Caritamrta Adi 4.96-98)

 

 

so, in your humble opinion,Bhaktivedanta swami

is not a gaudiya vaisnava ?

 

again become a mouse !!

 

 

[Guest guest]

panca-tattvatmakam krsnam

bhakta-rupa-svarupakam

bhaktavatarm bhaktakhyam

namami bhakta-saktikam

 

 

"I offer my obeisances unto the Supreme Lord, Krishna, who is non-different from His features as a devotee, devotional incarnation, devotional manifestation, pure devotee and devotional energy."

 

Caitanya Caritamrta Krsnadas Kaviraja

[gHari]

I don't see where anyone in this thread has even suggested that the Two are not One. What's all this venom about? It seemed to me that the second post in the thread came out of nowhere, not at all related to anything that was written in the first posting. Is there a prior dispute?

 

Surely we are not suggesting that since Sri Radha and Sri Balarama are expansions of Sri Krsna that Krsna only feigns pastimes with Them to teach us lessons; that Krsna has no associates with whom to interact; that He is actually completely totally alone, being All That Is; period. This certainly sounds 'acintya', but it is hardly 'bhedAbheda'. Even suggesting that only we marginal entities are separate, that there is no genuine interaction between any elements of Vishnu-tattva, just doesn't seem reasonable. I know Krsna has a real flare for the dramatic in teaching us lessons, but this seems just too devious for me to accept, at least initially.

 

Srila Prabhupada has lectured that the mystery of Radha-Krsna is not for consideration by conditioned souls; first liberation, then Radha-Krsna. What is it you are actually trying to say with respect to the thread's first post, Shiva? I really don't get it. I don't get any of it.

[gHari]

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta notes while lecturing on RAdhASTamI 1968:<blockquote>So RAdhA, so RAdhA and KRSNa. KRSNa is the enjoyer and He wants to enjoy. So He's the Supreme Brahman. He cannot enjoy anything, AtmarAma, He can enjoy it in Himself. Therefore RAdhArANI is the expansion of His pleasure potency. KRSNa hasn't got to seek external things for His pleasure. No. He is in Himself full, AtmarAma. So RAdhArANI is expansion of KRSNa. KRSNa is the energetic, and RAdhArANI is the energy. Just like energy and energetic, you cannot separate. Fire and the heat you cannot separate. Wherever there is fire there is heat, and wherever there is heat there is fire. Similarly, wherever there is KRSNa there is RAdhA. And wherever there is RAdhA there is KRSNa. They are inseparable. But He is enjoying. So SvarUpa DAmodara GosvAmI has described this intricate philosophy of RAdhA and KRSNa in one verse, very nice verse. RAdhA kRSNa-praNaya-vikRtir hlAdinI-zaktir asmAd ekAtmAnAv api bhuvi purA deha-bhedaM gatau tau [Cc. Adi 1.5]. So RAdhA and KRSNa is the one Supreme, but in order to enjoy, They have divided into two. Again Lord Caitanya joined the two into one. CaitanyAkhyaM prakaTam adhunA. That one means KRSNa in the ecstasy of RAdhA. Sometimes KRSNa is in ecstasy of RAdhA. Sometimes RAdhA is in ecstasy of KRSNa. This is going on. But the whole thing is RAdhA and KRSNa means the one, the Supreme.

 

So RAdhA-KRSNa philosophy is a very great philosophy. It is to be understood in the liberated stage. RAdhA-KRSNa philosophy is not to be understood in the conditioned stage. But when we worship RAdhA-KRSNa in our conditional stage, actually we worship LakSmI-NArAyaNa. You have seen that picture, this viddhi-mArga and rAga-mArga. RAdhA-KRSNa worship is on the platform of pure love, and LakSmI-NArAyaNa worship is on the regulative principles. So long we do not develop our pure love, we have to worship on the regulative principles. One has to become a brahmacArI, one has to become a sannyAsI, one has to perform the worship in this way, in the morning he has to rise, he has to offer. So many rules and regulations. There are at least sixty-four rules and regulations. So we shall introduce them gradually as you develop. So in the viddhi-mArga, when you have no love for God or KRSNa, we have to follow the regulative principles and automatically..., there is practice. When practicing. Just like you practice this mRdaGga playing. In the beginning it is not in order, but when you become well versed in the practice, the sound will come so nice. Similarly, when we are engaged by regulative principles in the worship of RAdhA-KRSNa, that is called viddhi-mArga. And actually when you are on the love platform, then that is called rAga-mArga. So without viddhi-mArga, if anyone wants to learn the rAga-mArga immediately, that is foolishness. That is foolishness. Nobody can pass M.A. examination without going through the regulative principles of primary schools and colleges. So therefore I do not, I mean to say, indulge in the discussions of RAdhA and KRSNa so easily. Rather go on with the regulative principle at the present moment. Gradually, as you become purified, as you become on the transcendental platform, you'll understand what is RAdhA-KRSNa. Don't try to understand RAdhA-KRSNa very quickly. It is a very big subject. If we want to understand RAdhA-KRSNa very quickly, then there will be so many prAkRta-sahajiyAs. In India there are prAkRta-sahajiyA. Just like RAdhA-KRSNa dancing. RAdhA-KRSNa has become a plaything. The painting RAdhA-KRSNa, KRSNa is kissing RAdhA, RAdhA is kissing. These are all nonsense. RAdhA-KRSNa philosophy has to be understood by the liberated person, not by the conditioned soul. So we shall await for the fortunate moment when we are liberated, then we shall understand rAdhA-kRSNa-praNaya-vikRtir. Because KRSNa and RAdhA, They are not on the material field. Try to understand. This is JIva GosvAmI's analysis, that KRSNa is the Supreme Brahman. The Supreme Brahman cannot accept anything material. So RAdhA is not in the material field.

 

Now there is a very nice song. I shall sing if you can play on the harmonium. Yes. This is a RUpa GosvAmI's song: <center><table BGCOLOR=#H0H0H0 border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 width="80%">

<td width="40%" valign="middle"><img src=http://home.primus.ca/~caitanya/SrilaPrabhupada.jpg border=0 width=217 height=264>

</TD><TD width="60%" valign="middle"><center><font color="yellow">[ .... Prabhupada sings ]

 

<font color="white">

rAdhe jaya jaya mAdhava-dayite

gokula-taruNI-maNDala-mahite

dAmodara-rati-vardhana-veze

hari-niSkuta-vRndA-vipineze

vRSabhAnudadhi-nava-zazi-lekhe

lalitA-sakhI guNa-ramita-vizAkhe

karuNAM kuru mayi karuNA-bharite

sanaka-sanAtana-varNita-carite

rAdhe jaya jaya mAdhava-dayite </center></font></TD></TABLE></center>

This song was sung by RUpa GosvAmI. He is the real person, actual person, to understand RAdhA and KRSNa. So he says, "All glories to RAdhArANI." RAdhe jaya jaya mAdhava-dayite. "She's so dear to KRSNa." KRSNa, everyone is trying to love KRSNa, but KRSNa is trying to love somebody. Now how great She is. Just try to understand. Everyone, the whole world, the whole universe, all living entities, they are trying to love KRSNa. KRSNa-prema. Lord Caitanya describes, prema-pumArtho mahAn. And RUpa GosvAmI described that "You are distributing kRSNa-prema." So kRSNa-prema is so valuable, but KRSNa is after RAdhArANI. Just see how RAdhArANI is great. Just try to understand the greatness of RAdhArANI. Therefore She is so great, and we have to offer our respect. RAdhe jaya jaya madhava-dayite. How She is? Gokula-taruNI-maNDala-mahite. TaruNI, taruNI means young girls. You'll see the pictures, they are all young girls. But of all the young girls, She is the most beautiful. She is enchanting to the young girls also. She is so beautiful. Gokula-taruNI-maNDala-mahite. DAmodara-rati-vardhana-veze. And She always dresses Her so nicely that DAmodara, KRSNa, becomes attracted by Her beauty. Hari-niSkuta-vRndA-vipineze. And She is the only lovable object of KRSNa, and She is the queen of VRndAvana. This queen of VRndAvana... You'll find in VRndAvana, if you go to VRndAvana, everyone is worshiping RAdhArANI. RANI means queen. They are always speaking, "Jaya RAdhe!" RAdhArANI. All the devotees in VRndAvana, they are worshiper of RAdhArANI. Hari-niSkuta-vRndA-vipineze. VRSabhAnudadhi-nava-zazi-lekhe. And She appeared as the daughter of King VRSabhAnu, and Her companion, LalitA-sakhI and VizAkha-sakhI, and the devotees... So on behalf of the pure devotees of KRSNa, RUpa GosvAmI is praying, karuNAM kuru mayi karuNA-bharite. "Oh, my worshipable RAdhArANI, You are full of mercy. So I am begging of Your mercy because You are so merciful, very easily You offer, bestow Your mercy. So I am begging Your mercy." KaruNAM kuru mayi karuNA-bharite, sanaka-sanAtana-varNita-carite. Now somebody may say, "Oh, you are so great, learned scholar, you are so great saintly person, and you are begging mercy from an ordinary girl? How is that?" Therefore RUpa GosvAmI says, "Oh, this is not ordinary girl." Sanaka-sanAtana-varNita-carite. "This girl's description is possible to be made by great saintly persons like Sanaka-SanAtana. She is not ordinary."

</blockquote>

[Kishalaya]

"I don't see where anyone in this thread has even suggested that the Two are not One."

 

Forgive my intrusion.

 

Her Lordship is Krishnamayii. In that sense they are one. This talk of shakti etc. is too impersonal. Even in this jada maayic jagat, when we relate we do not talk like one jeeva is relating to another jeeva. A person is relating to another person. So how more personal the divine realm would be. I, personally, do not have any tendency towards the concept of oneness.

 

Kishalaya

[Guest guest]

 

 

Tattva Prakaranam

 

 

[ By Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur ]

 

 

1. ekah paro nanyah

 

Sri Krishna is one without a second: He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

2. agunopi sarvasaktirameyatvat

 

Although transcendental to material qualities, Sri Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, possesses expansive, immense potencies inconceivable to mundane perception.

 

3. viruddha-samanyam tasminnacitram

 

Innumerable contradictory qualities simultaneously existing in Sri Krishna is nothing uncommon or wonderful.

 

4. sa saccidanando jnanagamyo bhakti visayatvat

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krishna, whose form is eternal, fully conscious and blissful, is not perceivable by mundane faculties but can be realized only by transcendental unalloyed devotional service.

 

5. sa ca satyo nityo 'nadirananto desa-kalaparicchedat

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krishna is the Supreme Absolute Truth, beyond the influence of time and space.

 

6. paropi cijjadabhyam vilasi visva-siddheh

 

Although transcendental to matter and spirit, Sri Krishna expands through His diverse energies as the cosmic manifestation, consisting of both matter and spirit, for His pastimes.

 

7. tacchaktitastatvadhikyamiticcenna tadabhedat

 

Sri Krishna's transcendental potency is not a separate principle, it is identical with Him.

 

 

[Guest guest]

The Philosophy of Lord Chaitanya was that God is One without a second. He is known as Shree Krishna but His incarnations such as Rama Nrisingha are all identical with Him. The living entities or Jivas are qualitatively one with Godhead but quantitatively they are innumerable but eternal servitors of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The present materialistic activities of the Jivas are to be understood as the acts of Maya or illusion and therefore they are all waste of energy of the human being. The energy of the human being as also of other living being should therefore be directed under the bonafide regulations of the Acharya so the line of Lord Chaitanya and as such He vehemently protested against the principles of those pseudo transcendentalists now passed in the name of Lord Chaitanya.

 

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

From Back to Godhead Vol.1 Part 9

March 1952

 

Of the innumerable, eternal, conscious beings, there is one eternal Supreme Being. That Supreme Lord is the maintainer of the innumerable living beings in terms of their different situations, according to individual work and reaction of work. That Supreme Lord is also, by his expansion as Paramatma, present within the heart of every living being. Only those saintly persons who can see, within and without, that same Supreme Lord, cvan actually attain to perfect and eternal peace.

(Katha Upanisad 2.2.13)

 

 

"As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself."

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta-Caitanya Caritamrta

 

 

"Thus from Durga-devi's words we can understand that the Lord does not have two potencies. There is only one potency, who manifests Herself as the spiritual potency Radhika and the material potency Visnu-maya. When the potency is free from the material modes, she is called the spiritual potency, and when she is within the sphere of the material modes, she is called the material potency."

 

Bhaktivinode Thakur Jaiva Dharma

 

 

"The potency and the possessor of the potency are not different."

 

"The meaning, then, is that the potency does not exist apart from its substance. The only true substance is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of potencies. The nature of the potency is either to be a quality of the Supreme Lord, or submissive to His will. When it is said that the potency has pure consciousness, that means that because the potency and the master of potencies are not different, therefore, like the master of potencies, the potency also has a form of spiritual consciousness, has desires that are at once fulfilled, and is beyond the touch of the three modes. It is not a mistake to say these things. Will and consciousness are qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By itself, the potency does not possess will, but rather it carries out the will of the Supreme. For example, you have power, and by Your will, your potencies act. If you say, 'the power acted', then that means that the possessor of the power was actually behind the action. To say that 'the power acted' is only to use a figure of speech. In truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has only one potency. When she performs spiritual actions, she is called spiritual potency, and when she performs material actions, she is called the material potency, or maya. The Vedas (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8) explain:

 

"The potency of the Supreme is manifested in many different ways."

 

The potency that manifests the three modes is the material potency. She creates and destroys the material universes. Those are her duties. In the Puranas and Tantras this potency is called by many names, such as Visnu-maya, Maha-maya, and Maya. Allegorically she is also called 'the mother of Brahma, Visnu and Shiva", 'the killer of Sumbha and Nisumbha', and other like names that describe her different activities. As long as he remains deeply enmeshed in material consciousness, the soul is under her power. When he attains pure spiritual knowledge, the soul can understand the nature of his original spiritual form. Then he is freed from the ropes of Maya. Then he is under the power of the spiritual potency. Then he becomes happy.

 

Jaiva Dharma bhaktivinode thakur