The Foolish and Unintelligent

[Guest guest]

Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita (7.25):

 

" I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency (yogamaya) and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible."

 

Why would God not make Himself apparent to every living entity when He appears? Even if it is only for 125 years out of every billions of years, why not give the atheists physical undeniable proof that have been wanting all along?

[Guest guest]

It is because Krishna never denies the living entity the ability to think himself separate from Krishna. There is no meaning to love, if love is forced. Krishna gives everyone the right to be an atheist for as long as they desire. However, when the living entity voluntarily turns toward Krishna, then Krishna provides every opportunity for that soul to come to Him.

[Guest guest]

 

Wrong answer. No one takes the position that Krishna is envious. Atheists are atheists due to lack of evidence. The question asked was "Why didn't Krishna supply adequate proof -- enough to convince atheists?"

 

This raises the question - What is adequate proof? It is different for everyone. Theists are those who accept without proof. There may be some atheists who can be convinced with little proof [magic, etc], while some may require a lot more. It is not possible for someone born as a human to convince the whole population that he is not human. Ex: Sai Baba cannot convince everyone that he is God. He can convince millions, but not everyone. Similar logic applies to all proclaimed avatars.

 

Cheers

 

[Tirisilex]

*** Wrong answer. No one takes the position that

*** Krishna is envious.

 

How does this persons answer show any envy? It proclaims patient love.

This persons answer is correct. Krishna has already provided adequate proof. It is now up to the individual to accept it.

I would think that the reason why Krishna does not come in all his glory and reveal himself to proove that he exists so that all may know is because that would be prideful. Krishna wouldn't act out of pride to get followers. I guess the best example to support this idea is something Jesus said "Do not go out and declare your righteousness for all to see." The best way for one to show their righteousness and glory is not by putting on a showy display but by acting in a manner which makes others praise your glory and that is the sufficient proof.

[Avinash]

Another interesting question. What is better: personal experience or logical conclusion?

 

In my view, if I do not have to convince somebody of something-I only want proof for myself, then personal experience is better. If I want somebody else to believe in something and I can make him have the personal experience of that, then also personal experience is better. As an example, I can use the knowledge of Einstein's mass energy equivalence and the details of nuclear reactions in a nuclear bomb to understand that the disasters of a nuclear bomb are huge. But my understanding of the disaster will not be as good as that of a person who have witnessed the disaster personally.

 

But if I want somebody to believe in something and I can not make him have the personal experience of it, then logical explanation is a must.

[Guest guest]

 

. Atheists are atheists due to lack of evidence. The question asked was "Why didn't Krishna supply adequate proof -- enough to convince atheists?"

 

 

They are not able to see Krishna and His qualities because as Krishna says:

 

Na maam dushkritno mudha,

prapadyante naraadhamaa,

mayayaaprhataa gyaana,

aasurim bhaavamaashrita.

 

Five kinds of people don't approach me -

1) A very sinful person (dushkritino)

2) A foolish person (mudha)

3) Lowest of mankind (naraadhamaa)

4) A person whose intelligence is stolen by maayaa and

5) A person of demonic mentality.

 

So unless the person gets a submissive mentality to understand Krishna and chants Krishna's names with that mentality He'll never be able to understand Krishna!

 

 

What is adequate proof? It is different for everyone. Theists are those who accept without proof. There may be some atheists who can be convinced with little proof [magic, etc], while some may require a lot more.

 

 

You cannot get the proof for all the happenings in this universe. That does'nt mean that you don't beleive anything unless you see it. What power does the human eye have? It cannot even see in darkness!

 

This beautiful verse by Rupa Gosvami Ji explains how Krishna reveals Himself:

 

Atha Sri Krishna namaadi,

bhavyam na grahed indriyah,

Sevonmukhe hi jivhaadau,

svayam evaa sphurati adhah.

 

"Krishna names and Krishna's qualities etc. cannot be perceived by blunt senses. But by serving Krishna with the senses starting from the tongue (by chanting Krishna's names and tasting Krishna prasaad) Krishna reveals Himself!"

 

Hare Krishna!

Som

[Guest guest]

 

You are talking circular logic.

 

According to your logic, it is not possible to find evidence for Krishna, unless you already believe in Krishna. But if one already believes in Krishna, where is the need for evidence?

 

It is necessary to have faith in some things-- yes. For instance, although I have never been to Japan, I can, based on the info [and the veracity of the sources] I have, safely assume that if I board a flight to Tokyo, I will land in Japan. These are assumptions that can be easily verified.

 

However, when it comes to the paranormal, pre-assuming will not do. I cannot believe in Mahesh yogi's levitation skills without actualy seeing him fly. Nor can I believe in Sai Baba's supernatural powers without seeing him perform some unique miracle that cannot possibly be performed by a magician. It may still be bogus -- but if it convinces me, that will do to turn me into a believer.

 

In short, it is ok to assume things which can be easily verified, but it is certainly not ok to accept items on faith alone, when they can never be verified. This applies to Krishna. You are willing to accept the Gita and the words of the Gurus as an article of faith. I believe they were simply repeating what they heard from their seniors who in turn did the same thing and therefore there isn't enough evidence to believe in a creator/controller.

 

Branding everyone who do not agree with us as stupids and fools is a very common thing found in daily life. The christian thinks all non-christians are being stupid and the Hare Krishna thinks all non-HKs are stupid. So, who is really stupid? -- one wonders. A few years back, a south Indian movie had the tag-line "For intelligent people only" on all it's posters. This was the director's way of protecting himself from criticism. No one will find faults in the movie, for that will mean the critic is not intelligent. This is the technique found in all religious books. If you accept the author's words with faith, you are good, else your IQ is seriously low.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

Krsna says that he reserves the right to reveal himself to those who worship him with love and devotion. You don't seem to like his prerequisites. Your idea is - first show me unequivocal empirical evidence and then I will believe.

 

Your example of your 'belief' in the existence of Japan is telling. This is exactly the same argument that theists use to support their 'belief' in God. By knowing someone who has experience and who is a credible person they gain some faith. Your claim that all theists are merely parroting something they heard from someone else doesn't hold any weight, anymore than claiming the same with regard to your example about Japan.

 

Spiritual realization is not a matter of material intelligence. Intelligence in the way the word is commonly used has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 

So, how does one really aquire faith? It is not that the athiest (ie. yourself) is more intelligent in the matter and the theist is a fool who is 'blind' and lacking common sense or a semblance of intelligence. It is based on sukriti, or merit. Sukriti is of two kinds - that which is accumulated unknowingly and that which is accumulated knowingly. An example of the unknowing kind is when one does something in service of a devotee without any knowledge of the action - such as building a cottage for homeless individuals and by chance a saint stays in such a place. One may open a door for a great saint as he or she would anyone out of common courtesy but the merit they gain in such a selfless act in unimaginable.

 

I guess it may be splitting hairs here but - an agnostic is defined as one who isn't decided about God as yet because he/she has no proof one way or the other - in other words they don't feel their is proof one way or the other. An athiest is defined as one who 'believes' there is no God. Now of course many athiests will claim that they have proof of such a claim but really, it remains a belief which is not provable empirically. Functionally both remain in a sort of spiritual limbo but the subtle and significant difference is that the agnostic is open in principle to the possibility that God exists.

 

Either way, saints are present in this world for the sole purpose of serving the Lord and acting as His agents to help in delivering souls caught in the snare of samsara. It is by their grace alone that we have some hope of upliftment and gaining freedom from this entanglement.

 

Besides all of the above, there is a method by which one can gain some tangible experience of transcendence, but it does require an open heart and mind and that one sincerely apply themselves. The process for this age is chanting of the Holy Names of God. Chanting of the maha mantra will deliver the sincere practitioner and give him/her direct experience of transcendence.

 

I know that you have many doubts and that you will have something to say that counters all I have said above - something you must do to maintain your position - that's fine. The reality is that there is much to life that is beyond the reach of the mind and senses. It is said that love knows no reason, which for anyone who has experienced love in any form rings completely true. In fact, one may have every reason not to love yet love remains. It is really to that noble expression that spirituality speaks and seeks to uncover the greatest and furthest reaches of. Love conquers all and takes it seat in the highest position about logic, reason, argument and sensuous experience.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[Guest guest]

 

 

Krsna says that he reserves the right to reveal himself to those who worship him with love and devotion. You don't seem to like his prerequisites. Your idea is - first show me unequivocal empirical evidence and then I will believe.

 

 

And why not? I am the best judge of what I want. What Krishna says has value only to someone who chooses to believe in him.

 

 

Your example of your 'belief' in the existence of Japan is telling. This is exactly the same argument that theists use to support their 'belief' in God. By knowing someone who has experience and who is a credible person they gain some faith. Your claim that all theists are merely parroting something they heard from someone else doesn't hold any weight, anymore than claiming the same with regard to your example about Japan.

 

 

I have no problems with that. I am just stating my position and my opinion of theist Gurus, because Som has posted above the standard theist position that atheists must be stupid. The idea is to show that atheists can have similar opinions about theists too. It was not an argument.

 

Cheers

[DeepakM98]

Although our scriptures and ancient sages have stressed on the importance of worship yet we find some people disinclined towards worship. What is the reason? Just as a person suffering from fever develops aversion towards food, in the same way, the presence of atheism in a man goes to prove that he is suffering from some spiritual disease. Just as after the person has been cured of his fever, again starts liking food, similarly, an atheist becomes an ardent devotee once his spiritual disease gets cured.

 

( this is a quote from http://www.urday.com )

[Guest guest]

here is the answer, Krishna reveals the truth

from within, there is no other way.

 

http://www.asitis.com/10/11.html

 

[Guest guest]

 

I am just stating my position and my opinion of theist Gurus, because Som has posted above the standard theist position that atheists must be stupid. The idea is to show that atheists can have similar opinions about theists too.

 

 

Atheist can think and say whatever they want as the Theists do. But, they seem to forget that even their power to think is based on the power of conciousness which is again given by Krishna.

 

The verse quoted by Shiva is exactly relevant to this discussion.

 

Hare Krishna!

Som

[Guest guest]

 

 

But, they seem to forget that even their power to think is based on the power of conciousness which is again given by Krishna.

 

 

You are not getting it.

 

For an atheist, Krishna does not exist. There is no question of "forgetting" something, as you put it.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

My dear spirit soul,

Please accepy my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

In Bhagavad-gita:

 

nAdatte kasyacit pApaM

na caiva sukRtaM vibhuH

ajNAnenAvRtaM jNAnaM

tena muhyanti jantavaH

 

Nor does the Supreme Lord assume anyone's sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge.

 

Purport:

"The sanskrit word vibhu means the Supreme Lord who is full of unlimited knowledge, riches, strength, fame, beauty and renunciation. He is always satisfied in Himself, undisturbed by sinful or pious activities. He does not create a particular situation for any living entity, but the living entity, bewildered by ignorance, desires to be put into certain conditions of life, and thereby his chain of action and reaction begins. Aliving entity is, by superior nature, full of knowledge. Nevertheless, he is prone to be influenced by ignorance due to hid limited power. The Lord is omnipotent, but the living entity is not. The Lord is vibhu, or omniscient, but the living entity is anu, or atomic. Because he is a living soul, he has the capacity to desire by his free will. Such desire is fulfilled only by the omnipotent Lord. And so, when the living entity is bewildered in his desires, the Lord allows him to fulfill those desires, but the Lord is never responsible for the actions and reactions of the particular situation which may be desired. Being in a bewildered condition, therefore, the embodied soul identifies hinself with the circumstantial material body and becomes subjected to the temporary misery and happiness of life. The Lord is the constant companion of the living entity as Paramatma, or the supersoul, and therefore He can understand the desires of the individual soul, as one can smell the flavor of a flower by being near it. Desire is a subtle form of conditioning for the living being. The Lord fulfills his desires as he deserves: Man proposes and God disposes. The individual is not therefore omnipotent in fulfilling his desires. The Lord, however, can fulfill all desires, and the Lord being neutral to everyone, does not interfere with the desires of the minute living entities. However, when one desires Krsna, the Lord takes special care and encourages one to desire in such a way that one can attain to HIm and be eternally happy.

ajNo jantur anISo 'yam

AtmanaH sukha-duHkhayoH

ISvara-prerito gacchet

svargaM vASv abhram eva ca

 

'The living entity is completely dependent in his distress and happiness. By the will of the Supreme he can go to heaven or hell as a cloud is driven by air.'

Therefore the embodied soul, by his immemorial desire to avoid Krsna consciousness, causes his own bewilderment. Consequently, although he is constitutionally eternal, blissful, and cognizant, due to the littleness of his existence he forgets his constitutional position of service to the LOrd and is entrapped by nescience. And, under the spell of ignorance, the living entity claims that the lord is responsible for his conditioned existence. The vedanta-sutras (2.1.34) also confirms this. Vaisamya-nairghrnye na sapeksatvat tatha hi darsayati:'The Lord neither hates nor likes anyone, though He appears to."

 

So, God doesn't make Himself apparent to everyone because they don't want to know HIm.

 

Your servant,

Narayani d.d.

 

[Narayanidd]

Sorry I forgot to login before posting the above.

[Guest guest]

 

For an atheist, Krishna does not exist. There is no question of "forgetting" something, as you put it.

 

 

I feel really sad for the Atheists for whom Krishna does'nt exist! They are missing the REAL connection which they can make only in the human form of body.

 

<U>They are missing the transcendental taste which is a birth-right of every human being!</U>

 

But, our dear Krishna is so kind that Krishna is still allowing the Atheists to think what they want. If Krishna wanted Krishna could have forced upon the Atheists to submit themselves to Krishna.

 

We (the Theists) therefore adore our dear Krishna ALWAYS!!!

[Somesh Kumar]

Previous post done by this "Gopi bharthur . Kamalayor Dasa Dasaanudaas" - Aspiring to be Krishna's servant's servant's servant !!!

[Guest guest]

Hi people, go to this forum for an indepth view of Krishna:

 

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=hinduism&Number=40806&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1&PHPSESSID=

[Guest guest]

 

===============

 

"Both the spiritual goal and the search for happiness are the same. Both are essentially selfish, pleasurable pursuits.

 

You know, I've been everywhere in the world, and have found that people are exactly the same. There is no difference at all. Becoming is the most important thing in the world for everybody -- to become something. They all want to become rich, whether materially or spiritually, it is exactly the same. Don't divide it; the so-called spiritual is the materialistic. You may think you are superior because you go to temple and do puja, but the woman there is doing puja in the hope of having a child. She wants something, so she goes to the temple. So do you; it is exactly the same. For sentimental reasons you go, but in time it will become routine and become abhorrent to you.

 

What I am trying to point out is simply this: your spiritual and religious activities are basically selfish. That is all I am pointing out. You go to the temple for the same reason you go other places -- you want some result. If you don't want anything there is no reason to go to the temple."

 

Cheers

[srivats]

My dear friend.

 

The first thing i would say about you is,

You are soo lucky being atheist , yes you are !

 

i have heared in one of the vedantic lectures that the person who says god doesnot exists , always thinks how to prove it or how to make others dont believe in god , but by doing so he unknowingly thinks about god , he thinks twice about god than the thiest.

 

And one more thing is that when you find answers to all your questions , your knowledge about spiritual life will be more and that will be the time you start believing in god .

 

in reply to

----------

 

Becoming is the most important thing in the world for everybody -- to become something

 

-----------

 

yes you are correct. If anyone not wishes to become something then there is no change ,no life ,

there is no universe and nothing !

 

If the ancient man ( as proven scientifically ) , has not wanted to find fire , take food wear dress and then to find wheel .etc...we are not here sitting at front of computers typing something. yes we all wanted to be someone and still want to be someone. everyone wants to be something , Otherwise there is no drive , if there is no drive and then no life, but accoding to puranas these drives are basically to gain knowledge spritual world and to find the way out from materialistic world .

 

----------------------------

She wants something, so she goes to the temple.

------------------------

 

How to make one worship god , he needs to know what the gain he can get out of it , being a materilistic man .

 

If he worships he gets somthing at the end of the prayer , he believes that god has given him somehting as result of prayer , yes its starts like this . Because god gives every chance to the human to find his way towards him.

 

In simple terms , How u make a pet ( dog , cat ..etc ) , you cannot jus show ur love towards animal, first you should start feeding him then by spending time with it

Then slowly it understands that you are its freind and you can take care of him. Your animal thinks that you are his owner and no one else , it believes and loves you till its last days.

 

In reply to

 

--------------------

 

What I am trying to point out is simply this: your spiritual and religious activities are basically selfish.

 

-----------------

 

Well , even i thought that great gurus are praying lord to attain salvation for themselfes which could be selfishness.

 

But its not , A great true saint will never pray for anything that is materialistic, if he does that it will be not for him but for others , who are his follwers .

 

There is always a belief that your prayers for others have more result than that of your own.

 

True saint help others to know the path to the salvation , Thus leading the way to the salvation.

 

Jus think what it goin to cost for all those persons who contribure to these sites , praising lord names , do you think there is selfishness here , absoultely not , the reason is these people who by preaching lord names helps others to get into the spiritual world and feel the grace of lord.

 

Dear thiest friends ,

 

I tried answering our freind with my little knowledge in sprituality.

Please do correct me , if anything i have said is wrong.

 

 

Madhava Kesava Madhana Gopala ! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Somesh Kumar]

Your answers are EXACT and to the point. Especially this one

You are soo lucky being atheist , yes you are !

 

i have heared in one of the vedantic lectures that the person who says god doesnot exists , always thinks how to prove it or how to make others dont believe in god , but by doing so he unknowingly thinks about god , he thinks twice about god than the thiest.

 

 

Quote by Cheers (Shvu?)

 

What I am trying to point out is simply this: your spiritual and religious activities are basically selfish. That is all I am pointing out. You go to the temple for the same reason you go other places -- you want some result. If you don't want anything there is no reason to go to the temple."

 

 

I agree cent percent with what you've said! That's why Srila Rupa Gosvami says in His prayer about Pure Bhakti as:

<c> Anyabhilashita shunyam,

Jnyana Karmaadi Anavrtam,

Anukuulyena Krishnaanushilanam,

Bhaktir Uchyate</c>

 

Meaning that Pure Bhakti is devoid of any other desires (which are dharma (religiosity), artha(economic development), kaama(sense gratification) and even moksha (liberation)), and it even does not take into consideration the Jnyana (knowledge) and Karmaa (action) part of spirituality. What else? It should be favourable towards Krishna (Anukuulyena Krishnaanushilanam). And how can it be favourable towards Krishna? By following Krishna's instruction:

<c>Man mana bhava,Mad Bhakta,

Mad Yaji,Mam Namaskuru,

Mamevaishyasi, Satyam Te,

Prati Jaane, Priyosi Me.</c>

 

Meaning - "Give your mind to Me, Become My devotee, Offer respects and obesisances to Me. Then surely You'll come to Me. I am telling this to You because You are Dear to Me."

 

Hare Krishna!