saddam is dead, so leave immediately!!!

[Guest guest]

Killing thousands to murder one enemy by revenge, set aside, we must hold the US teasonous president at his word. The regime has changed, now we must withdraw.

 

Yeah, mahak, right, like these republican/fascists hold to their word.

 

US will withdraw, alright, thru Syria, Iran, Jordan, a few 'Stans here and there.

 

mad mahax

[theist]

Mahakasa das, what a different day you and I must be having today. Don't you have anything positive to say? The Iraqi citizens sure seem to. Even Al-jazeera has been showing the celebrations of the people of Iraq. Waving US and old stlye Iraqi flags and cheering the US and UK soldiers. How about the shot of the young Iraqi with the home made sign that read:

 

The Hero of the Peace -over a large picture of George Bush with some Arabic at the bottom.

 

So many hundreds of such scenes being shown.

 

 

[livingentity]

everywhere!! The Iraqi citizens are finally able to truly smile!!

 

I was surprised this morning hearing an Al jazeera reporter speaking positive about the US helping to liberate the citizens of Iraq. Tunes are changing.

 

I am very happy for these poor people.

 

I realized the other day that there are people in Iraqi who were born in an atmosphere of fear and then died in the same atmosphere. Never knowing anything else. Same with the children that we are seeing smiling and jumping around in the streets today.

 

I say it again - we have only just begun to hear of the horrors these people had to endure. These stories needed to be broadcast throughout the world - people need to understand what was going on there.

 

 

[Tarun]

Propaganda all is phony. By TV Laboratory u can display any image.

Blind leading the blind, blind killing the blind, cheaters & cheated.

Unless we r distributing Bhagavat-prasAd & Holy Names it's all nonsense.

[Guest guest]

Yes, of course it is true that you can present any images you like using propaganda techniques; but I don't think there's any mistaking the sentiment of the Iraqis who tore down Saddam Hussein's statue. I think it is pretty obvious that they had suffered atrocities at Hussein's bidding. Saddam Hussein was a big demon and there were no checks and balances to keep him in place.

[stonehearted]

Yes, Saddam Hussein is a horrible person who deserves to suffer (and who will for many lives--make no mistake). However, we must never forget the vast number of ordinary Iraqis we came to "liberate" but killed or grievously wounded instead. How about a reminder of yesterday's headlines, which the military/propaganda machine gleefully supplanted this morning with the images you celebrate: 2 journalists killed and 3 wounded by am American tank shooting at a hotel where all foreign journalists have been living for some weeks; an Aljazeera journalist killed when Americans blew up the Aljazeera office in Baghdad (how dare they broadcast anything but cheerleading for W?); the international Red Cross stops counting the number of civilian casualities pouring into Baghdad hospitals because ther were too many to keep track of (100 or so an hour at one hospital). What makes those folks' lives less valuable than yours or mine, or those of the American soldiers?

 

Wake up: this is war, not a Swarzenegger movie. It's a horrible business, and what's to celebrate is its end. And what you are celebrating is TV. Don't you imagine those people knew they were on international TV? There were about 50 before the TV cameras showed up and 1500 afterward.

[Guest guest]

Pull our troops so that the Republican Guard that did not fight us but rather ran and hid to await the eventual withdrawl of troops, can pick up their arms and slaughter the ones who choose to rise up when the liberation forces are around.

 

Yes, let's pull our troops so that the loyalists can murder the innocents in numbers upwards of several hundreds of thousands, just like last time.

 

Your hate for Bush has crippled your ability to produce rational thought. Now go smoke another doobie and run off to burn your American flags at one of your rallys.

[stonehearted]

A "guest": Your hate for Bush has crippled your ability to produce rational thought. Now go smoke another doobie and run

off to burn your American flags at one of your rallys.

 

Do you really think your ad hominem attack enhances your own reputation for rational thought? This name calling is the lowest sort of appeal and (coupled with your anonymity) makes you appear rather insecure.

 

I've repeatedly called for a small degree of civility here and have rightly been upbraided when I've strayed myself. Play nice.

[leyh]

Any ideology that is centered on violence --- whether it is terrorism or the Bush Doctrine --- can never bring about real peace.

 

 

[theist]

only degrees will ever be found in the material world.

[leyh]

Yes, but what is the value of an illusory "peace" based on unqualified violence? What is the value of a "peace" that is built on the anger and hatred of many Arabs?

 

Now we see Iraqi citizens waving flags and giving thanks to George W Bush. What we can so easily ignore is that probably millions of Arabs are seething in anger at the latest humiliation of an Arabic state by the "American imperialists" and some of them will be bidding their time to exert revenge. And when that happens, what then? Another round of pre-emptive strikes, which will lead to more and more and more violence?

 

The Bush administration will surely win this war, but in doing so, they have almosty certainly activated yet another time bomb. It's like taking a giant step forward, then two steps backwards. Do the mathematic.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Stonehearted writes:

 

"A "guest": Your hate for Bush has crippled your ability to produce rational thought. Now go smoke another doobie and run

off to burn your American flags at one of your rallys.

 

Do you really think your ad hominem attack enhances your own reputation for rational thought? This name calling is the lowest sort of appeal and (coupled with your anonymity) makes you appear rather insecure.

 

I've repeatedly called for a small degree of civility here and have rightly been upbraided when I've strayed myself. Play nice.

 

The transcendental devotees of the Lord are not only free from material envy, but are well-wishers to everyone, and they strive to establish a competitionless society with God in the center. "

 

To which I respond:

 

Okay, now stop dancing and make your point.

 

If in fact you actually have one, that is.

[Guest guest]

leyh writes:

 

What we can so easily ignore is that probably millions of Arabs are seething in anger at the latest humiliation of an Arabic state by the "American imperialists" and some of them will be bidding their time to exert revenge.

 

To which I respond:

 

And they will be free to do so under a democratically elected body of government, one chosen by the free people of Iraq, rather than under the heel of a despotic, murdering, terroristic regime.

 

Just as they will be free to partake in enjoying the spoils of the wealth of their nation's natural resources, the oil.

 

There is no excuse for the levels of poverty the people of Iraq have been forced to endure under the rule of Saddam.

 

There will be hate and resentment towards the USA, to be sure. There will be just as much hate and resentment towards the rest of the dictatorships and brutal regimes that rule with an iron fist as Hussein did. Those despots are already fearing reprisal, and the unrest of their own people, as they should.

 

[Guest guest]

The point is you have ZERO solution on your own. If the Iraqis support the action, that is what matters more than if the Jordanians, or the Syrians, or the Saudis want the Iraqis to continue to be tortured and killed, and deprived. The Iraqi people no longer have to suffer.

 

It is amazing to me that before the war those against it were claiming there'd be half a million civilian casualties, tens of thousands of U.S. soldiers killed, the toppling of Arab governments by the Arab street uprising.

 

And none of it happened!!! Not only did none of it happen but these folks were so far off it is not even funny. We are not talking a little bit off, but completely, 100% wrong.

 

But they don't like that. So now it doesn't matter that the Iraqi people as a whole are celebrating. Now its "Because they are celebrating, now the rest of the Arab world has been humiliated, so now they are going to hate us more." Its like you guys won't even acknowledge that 20 million people have been freed from Saddam Hussein. Sure you say "Saddam is bad." but you say it with the same tone as "Mildew in my shower is bad." Almost a throwaway line. Its pathetic.

[leyh]

 

And they will be free to do so under a democratically elected body of government, one chosen by the free people of Iraq, rather than under the heel of a despotic, murdering, terroristic regime.

 

 

There is documented evidence that virtually every crime which the Bush Administration has accused the Saddam regime of commiting has been perpetuated by the US. The following is an excerpt from an online review of Rogue State --- A Guide to the World's Only Superpower by William Blum:

 

Harbouring weapons of mass destruction

 

In the 1940s, 60,000 US military personnel were used as human subjects to test mustard gas and lewisite (blister gas).Most were not informed and never received medical follow-up. They were threatened with imprisonment if they discussed these experiments with anyone, including wives, parents and family doctors.

 

From the early 1960s, US forces sprayed tens of thousands of tons of herbicides (particularly Agent Orange) over three million acres of Vietnam as well as Laos and Cambodia.This polluted Vietnam with 500lbs of dioxin, a nearly indestructible pollutant and one of the world's most toxic substances. Three ounces in the water supply could wipe out New York's population. On top of that napalm was used in wars in Korea and Vietnam and reportedly Sarin nerve gas in Laos in 1970.

 

In the 1990s the Pentagon admits that it exposed nearly 100,000 of its own US soldiers to trace amounts of Sarin gas in the Gulf War.

 

US imperialism has waged sustained economic, chemical and biological war on Cuba. In 1962, they contaminated sugar exports and infected turkeys with a virus (killing 8,000). In 1971, they infected pigs with African swine fever. In 1996, they caused a plague of pesticide-resistant plant-eating insects affecting corn, beans, and other crops.

 

Exporting lethal weapons

 

A US Senate Committee report says that from 1985 to 1989 American suppliers exported biological materials to Iraq - materials that UN inspectors later found and removed from Iraq's biological warfare programme!

 

Hundreds of thousands of acres have been turned into DU weapon-testing grounds in many US states. DU has been sold to Thailand, Taiwan, Bahrain, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Greece, Korea, Turkey, Kuwait and other countries. This weapon was used in Iraq and Yugoslavia.

 

Cluster bombs

 

Each cluster bomb contains over 200 "bomblets" aided by little parachutes that disperse them to hit what the manufacturers call "soft targets". If the fail they in effect become landmines.

Up to 30 million bomblets were dropped in the Gulf War; over a million didn't explode. It has led to over 1,200 Kuwaiti and 400 Iraqi civilian deaths so far.

The Pentagon is working on newer and better cluster bombs, "...suitable for the new millennium. America deserves nothing less."

 

Assassinations

 

Blum claims that the CIA have been involved in 36 assassination plots since world war two, including Nasser, Castro, Che Guevara, Michael Manley, Ayatollah Khomeini, Qaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Milosevic and even, in 1965, Charles de Gaulle.

 

War criminals

 

Blum suggests many US Presidents, generals etc for war criminals singling outRonald Reagan for "Eight years of death, destruction, torture and the crushing of hope inflicted upon the people of El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Grenada by his policies; and for his bombings of Lebanon, Libya and Iran. He's forgotten all this, but the world shouldn't."

 

He also nominates Henry Kissinger. "...(who successfully combined three careers: scholar, Nobel peace laureate and war criminal), behind interventions in Angola, Chile, East Timor, Iraq, Vietnam and Cambodia."

 

Harbouring and supporting terrorists

 

US-backed Cuban exiles are amongst the world's most prolific terrorist groups. In 1997, for example, there was a spate of hotel bombings in Havana directed from Miami.There are numerous air and boat hijackings. Even when perpetrators are brought to trial they are acquitted.

 

The US harbours state terrorists - government ministers and Generals - from Guatemala, El Salvador, Haiti, Chile, Argentina, Honduras, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iran and former Yugoslavia. That doesn't include those the US flew to safe havens in third countries.

 

In Afghanistan Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security adviser to Jimmy Carter in 1979, said that the US began aiding the Islamic fundamentalist Mujahidin six months before the Russians made their move, even though he believed - and told Carter - that "this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention".

 

Did he regret this action which armed "terror" groups who have gone on many missions including against the USA?"Regret what? ...an excellent idea," he told Le Nouvel Observateur in 1998. Blum notes that the edition sent to the US didn't include this interview.

 

A US diplomat in Pakistan in 1996 admitted: "This is an insane instance of the chickens coming home to roost. You can't plug billions of dollars into an anti-Communist jihad, accept participation from all over the world and ignore the consequences. "But we did. Our objectives weren't peace and grooviness in Afghanistan. Our objective was killing Commies and getting the Russians out".

 

Backing dictators

 

Zbigniew Brzezinski said in 1979, "I encouraged the Chinese to support Pol Pot.... The question was how to help the Cambodian people(!). Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him. But the Chinese could." A million Cambodians died under Khmer Rouge rule.

 

The School of the Americas (SOA) trained tens of thousands of Latin American military and police in counter-insurgency, infantry tactics, military intelligence, anti-narcotics operations and commando operations.

 

Under pressure, the Pentagon released seven Spanish-language training manuals used at the SOA until 1991. The New York Times said: "Americans can now read for themselves some of the noxious lessons the United States Army taught ... during the 1980s.

 

"A training manual recently released by the Pentagon recommended interrogation techniques like torture, execution, blackmail and arresting the relatives of those being questioned."

 

These exports included plans for chemical and biological warfare production facilities and chemical-warhead filling equipment. Iraq was reported as engaging in chemical and even biological warfare against Iranians, Kurds and Shi'ites from the early 1980s. Blum notes: "Presumably, Iraq's use of these weapons against Iran is what Washington expected would happen."

 

Depleted Uranium, (DU) used in tank cartridges, bombs, rockets and missiles is denser than steel and can penetrate tank armour. It is radioactive (forever), upon impact forms an aerosol of fine particles that can be carried downwind for 25 miles. When inhaled or ingested it can lead to many cancers and serious diseases.

 

Excerpted from http://www.geocities.com/youthagainstwar/news/realroguereview.htm

 

I have read Rouge State and the above are just a few of the many examples of US double standards documented in the book. The fact of the matter is that any perception of the current war as one of "the good guys" versus "the bad guys" is simply being too simplistic.

Instead of constantly denouncing other countries, Presdient George W Bush should take heed the following words from his spiritual master Jesus Christ:

 

And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (Matthew 7:3-5)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[leyh]

20 million Iraqis free? Really? Then why has the Bush Administration started to hand out contracts for rebuilding Iraq? Did they bother to consult the 20 million Iraqis about deciding who will renovate their war torn country? Already, US Secretary of State Colin Powell has stated that the coalition countries should be the dominant force in rebuilding Iraq after the war. Did he consult the 20 million on that matter? You talk about freedom, but it is clear that like Rumsfeld, you have a novel concept of freedom.

 

The fact of the matter is that Iraq has simply been seized from one power by a bigger power. Freedom? Only time will tell. But certainly not now.

 

 

 

[stonehearted]

Dear "guest": The point: If you really have a case to make, you only weaken yourargument by using ad hominem attacks. I carries the danger of making you look stupid and mean spirited. That may earn points with other true believers, but it doesn't move an argument at all.

[Guest guest]

Pull our troops so that the Republican Guard that did not fight us but rather ran and hid to await the eventual withdrawl of troops, can pick up their arms and slaughter the ones who choose to rise up when the liberation forces are around.

 

Yes, let's pull our troops so that the loyalists can murder the innocents in numbers upwards of several hundreds of thousands, just like last time.

 

Your hate for Bush has crippled your ability to produce rational thought. Now go smoke another doobie and run off to burn your American flags at one of your rallys.

 

 

 

Please refute this, if you can.

[stonehearted]

That the Republican Guard and other Saddam loyalists are brutal? What's to refute? No one here has asserted otherwise.

 

That Mahaksha is a dope-smoking, flag-burning commie? That's just name calling and merits no refutation--no serious attention.

[mahak]

Dope smokin, flag burnin commie? Well, if I eveh burned a flag, I did not inhale. And commie? No thanks, we have enough stalinists in the US govt right now.

 

What is the issue here, that twenty iraqis topple a statue of saddam supports the US slaughter of a quarter million human beings? That waves and smiles are justification for what US has done?

 

Or are we supposed to forget all the reasons that GWB cited for spending our resources of the next twenty years that we engaged in this adventure? Wheres the WMD? Wheres the connection to 9-11? Where is the clear and present danger to the US?

 

Or are we all content knowing fools are cheering while tens of thousands are dying or dead. Perhaps the reporters should go a block to the west and tell of the snipings, of the looting.

 

I dont cheer the end of the war because it has not even begun yet. The corporate media is very good at feel good stories to jack yall up about the heroic white girl rescued (what about the heroic black girl who also got rescued under even greater heroism, think shell get any press, nah, no good, she aint really one of US), jack ya up with the heroic taking of city after city where fighting did not even take place.

 

Still no good discussion about april glasby, still no good discussion why reagan considered the socialist/stalinist saddam was a good ally to act as balance of power to keep the fundamentalist fanatics at bay.

 

Still no study of how the US must now be the balance of power for decades to keep the shias and kurds from destroying each other, and add to that the baaths from syria, the horrors to come.

 

Iraqis may have hated their national figure, the brutal, rithless saddam, but he was their national figure. Now, only a military governorship by the great satan is in place, dya really think the iraqis will keep up their foolish singing in the streets. Slavery to a different master is still slavery.

 

Give em democracy, like florida's democracy. Or just put the tube on and read the paper, for the feel-good-about-brutal ethnic cleansing stories of heroism and happy iraqis. BTW what makes ys think that the arab news service is not corporate media?

 

I dont go to protests either. I do hand out real news to folks at support the troops rallys, and Ive never seen such real feelings of non-support of the current administration than from the military who have the history of Viet and DS vets to guage their feelings on. We hear from the media about hippies spitting in the faces of returning Vietnam vets (which only happened on one occasion at SF Airport), but the vets dont consider this, they consider the governments response to the agent orange controversy, the gulf war syndrome controversy, and the fact that a great number of homeless males in our cities are vietnam and gulf war vets. The US government spits in the faces of those foolish enough to serve such a demoniac master. Folks at the pro-troops rallys know this, this is where the reality is.

 

But reported, not on your life, gotta maintain the support of the commoner, so feed them stuff they can agree with. No one will stomach the reals news of bhagdad, and reporters were a great casualty of this war as well, in proportion, their losses were even greater than the republican guard of Iraqi regular armies.

 

In proportion, the news of this war has been slaughtered as well. Even walter cronkite, the most respected media source in this era, detests the "embedded reporting", stating tongue and cheek that reporters should never be in bed with the military. If you do not believe this govt agt code named mad mahax, maybe yall should read the article that got one great reporter killed.

 

How many, george, how many iraqi non-combatants were butchered? How marines were killed by our own? Got any pretty little white soldier girls to parade up and down the aisle for the american sheep to feel proud over? Give the black girl POW equal time if you dare. And count the mental injuries to those forced to conduct your slaughter under pretext for protection of national interest.

 

Oh, and by the way, hows your partners, the bin ladens, doing? Any rebuilding contracts heading their way?

 

mad mahax

[theist]

Your post is just too long and riddled with misconceptions and left twists to straighten out point for point. But because I can't control my urge to speak out I must say I heartily disagree. But you knew that.

 

In one of your recent posts during the war you said you were going back to work for the military. You mentioned they paid well. Hmmmm....?

 

You never burned a flag huh? Me either. But I did tear up and throw on the ground my draft card in a public park demonstartion in '69. Some Christians challenged us and when I asked them if Jesus would be for the draft they said he would and would carry his card. I then took mine out and ripped it and threw it to the wind.

 

Blind following is just as bad as blind dissent.

[mahak]

Little emotional, I conceed. However, from an entirely different standpoint, one as a friend of the military and especially the navy, I have terrible reservations. In my independant (I cant cope with protester groups, so I go alone) movement with military folk and families, there is a great deal of dissent. Kinda like the ol days, I didnt get into protesting until the VVAW started heading the marches without arms, without legs, etc. The ones there deserve to be heard, but will not get a chance. Their debriefing under extreme coercion will ensure silence, like my debriefing ensures a great deal of silence from me.

 

I would like to see testimony from front liners, make a star of the black female POW, hear from one who may have a different viewpoint. Because Vietnam would still be going on if it wasnt for VVAW. All dead, BTW, or living in gutters in every city, some support-the troops we have, eh. How many timothy mcveis will come out of this war.

 

gotta run, sorry I cant get into the celebration for the end of war, but I have a little too much prophet in me to see the END.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[stonehearted]

Actually, it's news from a different perspective. I remember that we recently discussed the film "The Panama Deception." The main point of that film was that it's not possible to trust the "reporting" found in the US corporate media (pretty much everyone now). I'm sorryto say that I believe that's a valid and true assertion; the film made the case very clearly, so clearly that when one of the sponsors mad a plea for being careful who to vote for that year, I asked, "Who are we supposed to vote for? It's clearly all bullpucky, Republican or Democrat!" There was no response.

 

The fact is we're so inundated by the corporate news machines product that we have a knee-jerk distrust of more independent media. That's too bad. Therefore, we get responses to Mahaksha's "rants" like "too many left twists, too many misconceptions," etc. We are not being given the whole story. Whenever anyone tries to give us, as mahak says, real news, we allow them to be shouted down as lefties who love (in this case) Saddam and his evil acts, when anyone with a shred of honesty knows that's not true.

 

One of the things I like about Krishna consciousness is what a really big tent it is--there's room for mahak and theist--maybe even for me some day. Hey, where's the kirtan?

[theist]

The fact that the "white girl pow" got so much press is insinuated as racism. That is a mis-conception. At the time she was the only one found. The black pow was found with a group of others. The white girl had both her legs broken and also an arm. The Iraqi' doctor who tipped off the US said those holding her were going to amputate her leg. The black girl was unharmed physically. No racism folks. Just different stories.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Seems the board moderators have slapped me enough. I'm supposed to refrain from any kind of guru review or ISKCON conspiracy theories.

 

Mahak, I applaud your witty criticisms.

 

Though they are cloaked in a humorous style, they are indeed glimpses of the end.

 

Guess Guest