saddam is dead, so leave immediately!!!

[stonehearted]

I have a jpeg file that shows the square in Baghdad where the famous toppling of the Saddam statue took place. This photo shows that what folks saw on Fox Propaganda Network is not the real story. You can see the truth of the situation quite clearly when it's at 100%; it's a little less clear when it's condensed. I haven't figured out how to attach the full-soze file yet (it's apparently too big), but you can find it attached to my post in the Test forum.

 

Any questions?

[theist]

Well what is the truth. I saw a couple hundred cheering and pounding shoes on Saddam head and then drgging it through the street. On another network i saw a reporter interviewing an American soldier and they were talking about how the Iraqi's had been trying for two hours to get it down and he was saying they might bring in some machinery to give them a hand.

 

I can't see what you are refering to. news organizations will often play tricks with there cameras in the sense that if they are favorably disposed to the idea behind a rally and only a small crowd shows up they will stick to very tight close up shots so you don't see it was sparsely attended. They all do that. It is distortion. Is that what you mean or something else?

[mahak]

Babhru, you look for truth in all of this, and others do as well. But we have to read between the lines, not maybe as far as new york tarun (though I have yet to disagree with him).

 

There are horrible aspects of this war that just are not covered. While I mildly slammed the POW, this was not her fault. But only doctors were there, and they had no equipment, the rescue involved no much military action, only brave disclosure by an iraqi citizen.

 

The toppling of the statue? This is another story one of pure propaganda used to grab the old fogies who remember an entirely different america. Just like the fool marines who were plastering american flags over everything (until the superior officers told them to stop such nonsense), the toppling of the statue was coerced by military, and the gangs of youth who did this had no politics, and continued their rampage to a museum, destroying the archives of world history the sumerian culture, the akkadians will never be known.

 

So 50 iraqi gangbangers get hero press while the protests by iraqis, 20,000 strong, and surrounded by military and the press can only view from a distance.

 

The reporting of this atrocity is an atrocity unto itself, for it is the epitome of george orwell's 1984. Now that saddam is dead (if he is), the US will soon provide another enemy for the 10 minute hate before we go about our business. Assad is a good candidate, why not, now the word "Baath" is implanted in the sheeps brains in the same file as abu nidal, abu abbas, khomeni, carlos the jackal, and the friend of bush, osama bin laden, it should not be too difficult to convince the american public that the "baathist" Assad is a tyranical dictator who kills his own, harbors terrorists, has weapons of mass destruction, the whole dish is served for our public consumption.

 

Bush? I gotta start another column on this antichrist. haribol, ys, mad mahax

[theist]

 

>>There are horrible aspects of this war that just are not covered. While I mildly slammed the POW, this was not her fault. But only doctors were there, and they had no equipment, the rescue involved no much military action, only brave disclosure by an iraqi citizen.<<

 

This is not true. The had a full scale battle going just some distance away that was started as a distraction for their operation of saving her.That drew the enemy guarding her from the hospital room to join in the firefight. Her rescue was filmed by a reporter and involved many. It's not that someone just walked in and took her out.

 

 

[theist]

>>The toppling of the statue? This is another story one of pure propaganda used to grab the old fogies who remember an entirely different america. Just like the fool marines who were plastering american flags over everything (until the superior officers told them to stop such nonsense), the toppling of the statue was coerced by military, and the gangs of youth who did this had no politics, and continued their rampage to a museum, destroying the archives of world history the sumerian culture, the akkadians will never be known.<<

 

One flag was drapped briefly over Saddam's head. It was a mistake. Your characterization of "platering american flags over everyhtin is extremely distorted".

 

The raid on the museum was days later by different people. If you are going to accuse people of all these atrocities please don't be so sloppy in your facts.

 

BTW did anyone read the statements from the Russian archeaologists? That museum was shut down completely for 2nearly a decade. No one was allowed in. When it reopened the Russians went in and said that they thought many of the real artifacts had been replaced with forgeries. Saddam had raid the place years ago according to them. That doesn't mean all were forgeries but that info. should be in any discussion of the matter.

 

 

[theist]

Here is a blip of info. on the musuem. It is a tradgedy for sure but just one of many that have occured in that country over the last thirty years.

 

 

A full accounting of what has been lost may take weeks or months. The museum had been closed during much of the 1990s, and like many Iraqi institutions, its operations were cloaked in secrecy under Saddam Hussein.

 

So what officials told journalists may have to be adjusted as a more more complete picture comes to light. It remains unclear whether some of the museum's priceless gold, silver and copper antiquities, some of its ancient stone and ceramics, and perhaps some of its fabled bronzes and gold-overlaid ivory, had been locked away for safekeeping elsewhere before the looting, or seized for private display in one of Hussein's ubiquitous palaces.

 

 

It has since come out that there is a secret vaulted site somewhere.

I am more astonished that these people looted hopitals stealing beds and anything not nailed down. Saddams palaces OK but c'mon.

 

I am equall astonished that the world seems to care more about these pieces of history than the millions of sentient beings that suffered under this despots rule for thirty years.

[mahak]

Theist correctly states:

 

" That doesn't mean all were forgeries but that info. should be in any discussion of the matter."

 

Discussion of the matter, this is what is needed. What we have is reporting based on the administration slant on things, but what is needed is discussion, while we still have a chance.

 

Like babhru clearly states, those against the administrations illegal use of military in wiping out Iraq regime are not saddam freaks. This is all too easy, to characterize all those not gung ho with the prez as traitors or helping the enemy. This is not what I am about. The Iraqis have my support in taking steps to improvew their lot, including putting a slug into the stalin wannabe's head.

 

My concern is the utter lawlessness of the bush administration, this west texas vigilantism that has taken place via lies to congress, an impeachable offense.

 

Is the america loved by patriotic support writers an america where a criminal is caught and punished prior ro evidence being collected to prove the case against the accused. Well, before we had in our possession all the stuff used to convince the UN of criminality of the regime, we laid waste to thousands of innocent as well as guilty persons in order to get one man and his two cloned sons. Some so-called conservatives are against the american ideal, and this most anti-patriotic activity of pre-emptive killing lacking evidence is most disturbing. This is my concern, this is why I curse the whacko 2nd amendment buffs who always cry the glories of the constitution when their bill of rights amendment is attacked, but are silent while the other nine amendments are laid waste by the bushwhacker so he can open the door to his christian coalition to do their manifest destiny thing on the iraqis.

 

Lets discuss. Lets discuss CIA provided forgeries presented to congress in september, 2002, to garner approval for war power gift to the ayatollah of the west.

 

haribol, ys, mahak

 

 

[theist]

"The reporting of this atrocity is an atrocity unto itself, for it is the epitome of george orwell's 1984. Now that saddam is dead (if he is), the US will soon provide another enemy for the 10 minute hate before we go about our business. Assad is a good candidate, why not, now the word "Baath" is implanted in the sheeps brains in the same file as abu nidal, abu abbas, khomeni, carlos the jackal, and the friend of bush, osama bin laden, it should not be too difficult to convince the american public that the "baathist" Assad is a tyranical dictator who kills his own, harbors terrorists, has weapons of mass destruction, the whole dish is served for our public consumption."

 

It appears you have never heard of Hezbullah or Islamic Jihad. they are the ones who bombed the US (embassy was it?) in lebannon in 1983 killing hundreds of US and french personnel who were their trying to keep the Syrians and the Israeli's separated after the israeli's had chased and cornered Yassar Arafat(Lizard Man)into Beirut. Remember that one? The US blew it big time by not retaliating then and there by cleaning out the Bekkaa valley. You do remember all the journalists that were held hostage there?

Where did they get their backing? Iran and Syria then as today.

 

The Syrians moved in after the Israeli's left and are still there.

 

People feel so sorry for the old pottery in Iran and I can understand that. They never seem to have a damn bit of sympathy though for the hundreds of Israeli's that have keep dying from the Hezzbullah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad suicide bombers.

 

I've been convinced of the evil in Syria for decades. It's even more dangerous now with Jr. Assad in trying to fill his fathers shoes.

 

So it may be Jr. Assad vs. Jr. Bush. I know who my $ is on. Ring the bell.

 

 

[theist]

it is no revelation that polics is a dirty business filled with half truths, out right lies all mixed up with some clear reality.

 

As I have said numerous times for me its taking out a thorn with a thorn.

 

I don't need the physical presence of the Pandavas and Krsna

to see that wiping out the present band of terrorists and mafioso is a just war. Nor do I need approval from the jr. debating society in the UN. We bowed to the UN in the Gulf War which had as a mandate only removing Saddam from Kuwait and not from power. Huge mistake by former Bush.

 

On news coverage check out google. Go to google like you were starting a search and then click on the news section at the top. So many articles from all sides of the spectrum.

 

I am out for now. Today there is even a more grave subject for our meditations.

 

peace mahak

[mahak]

Glad you mentioned it. The Bekkaa valley is home of the world terrorist industries for thirty years, and our covert folks know exactly where, as they have all along. So why is this massive university still there?

 

Because the arms industry demands that it be left alone. This is why saddam was our friend, its called balance of power, and it is not iraq and syria and libya and arafat that fosters this.

 

Im an expert of inner city gangster phenomenae. Crack is not invented there, coca leaves don grow there, uzis and mac10s arent produced there, but all that stuff is there. Why? INDUSTRY, the same thing that props up bekkaa valley and other terrorist hotspots. We use them and we abuse them at our whim, and now bush has a whim to attack and destroy a former reagan ally used against the ayatollah.

 

Well, since bekkaa is the hotspot, then these convenient demons do not supply terror any more than a black twelve year old with a glock and a bag of rock supply such things to destroy the community. US, European and oriental manufacturers of arms supply all the warring factions need to destroy the lives and children.

 

I cite a republican here, eisenhower, who knew the enemy of future america, its own creation of a marriage between the military and industry, and there is no line of separation between the two.

 

We comment, on different sides, but when governments provide weaponry for enemies that use the gear against the governments own troops, hell, it has taken over, we are destroyed, just as eisenhower knew would happen.

 

Now, we float, haitians and cubans, ready to land on the shore of south florida. We both flee dictatorships that kill their own. But america accepts cubans and sends haitians back to the stacks of human corpses, and this is the problem. The cubans become baptists, and the haitians hold onto santaria.

 

Ever wonder why the day that jesus was murdered is called "good friday".

 

later, mudmon, soon going deep.

[theist]

I have wondered that. Good for who? For those of us that would try and use Lord Jesus Christ to wipe clean our filthy shoes, time and again, as we attempt to steal the good things of God without offering true surrender.

 

On this day we materialists should feel deep shame that the Son of God had to be called upon to save our ragged butts from our own selfish exploitation of others.

 

Forgive US Father for we know not what WE do.

 

Some Christians know this and will not take part in the celebrations of others who in effect want to dance around the cross like little children around the maypole.

 

I wish to join those few in silent contemplation today, away from the noise of the others.

 

God bless mahak

[stonehearted]

theist: Well what is the truth. I saw a couple hundred cheering and pounding shoes on Saddam head and then drgging it through the street. On another network i saw a reporter interviewing an American soldier and they were talking about how the Iraqi's had been trying for two hours to get it down and he was saying they might bring in some machinery to give them a hand.

 

I can't see what you are refering to. news organizations will often play tricks with there cameras in the sense that if they are favorably disposed to the idea behind a rally and only a small crowd shows up they will stick to very tight close up shots so you don't see it was sparsely attended. They all do that. It is distortion. Is that what you mean or something else?

 

Babhru: What we actually saw was a couple of dozen people dragging the head through the street, with Fox (that's where I saw it live) commentators telling us it was 1500 or more. Here's what it looked like as the statue was being hauled down by the US Marines. I'm attaching the picture here (if it's not too large) in case you didn't go to the Test forum. First carefully examine the pix (it may help to bring them up to 100%), then ask what I'm talking about.

[stonehearted]

theist: One flag was drapped briefly over Saddam's head. It was a mistake. [mahak's] characterization of "platering american flags over everyhtin is extremely distorted".

 

Actually, it quite accurate. The statue was just one particularly stupid instance, especially since commanders had for days been telling their men to take down flags when they flew them. What we saw day after day was US servicemen blowing up statues of Saddam and destroying murals. They should have left it to the locals. The rhetoric of our guys doing that is atrocious.

 

Regarding the museums, let it go. Most of us have moved on. I brought it up not becuase it was particularly significant in itself (and I've said so once or twice), but because it's symptomatic of poor contingency planning.

[Guest guest]

What website did you get the pic from?

 

I saw the fall of the statue from the very beginning, and it played on all the channels. Fox, CNN, NBC, ABC, & CBS. The pictures were live, unedited.

 

The streets that morning (evening there) were empty. There were a few people trickling in. Over time that crowd grew bigger.

 

Now unless you are saying every channel, including the Arab channels showing those pictures, were biased, then I think it is appropriate to know the source of this picture. Is the website this comes from an unbiased source? What time is this picture, which is blurry, and from a distance (unlike the unedited, raw, live pictures I saw). Did it happen before, after? Was it edited in anyway (blurriness makes it easy to hide adobe photoshop changes).

 

The source for the picture is important compared to Fox, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS. Go to those websites, and you will find many, clear, clean, closeup pictures.

[stonehearted]

When was the picture taken? Just as the tank-retieval vehicle was pulling the statue down. It looks fuzzy because it a condensed version of the jpg. When I enlarged it to 100% of the original (what I attached was about 85%, so it may improve if you enlarge it by 15%) the images were crystal clear--tanks and all. I didn't get this from a Web site. As I explained, my daughter got it from one of her professors at UH Hilo, who got it from another UHH professor. I'm in the process of tracking down the source.

 

It appears that movement of folks on the ground was pretty much controlled by the Marines, so the TV images would show what was desired. Were you able to understand the Arabic commentary on Aljazeera and Abu Dabi TV? I've only studied a very little Arabic, and that was many years ago, so I don't know what they were saying. You asked whether my source is unbiased? Who do you consider unbiased--Fox News? NBC? ABC? CNN? Get real! This is the corporate media machine, who all wanted free access and would only get it by going along with the Department of Defense. Remember what happened to Geraldo Rivera (Kurt Vonnegut and I call him Jerry Rivers) when he made a mistake? DoD threw his butt out of Iraq.

 

I also watched the whole thing live. If you understand the pictures, you should be able to understand that this event was very likely carefully orchestrated by DoD, whose head has backed Ahmad Chalaby as the next head of the state of Iraq. That may not be the case, but only the ideologically blind will refuse to admit the possibility.

 

Ever seen Wag the Dog? (The story, by the way, was written not about Clinton but about senior Bush.) Two of my favorite lines from that film, each repeated throughout the movie, are the subject line of this post, and, "Of course it's true! I saw it on TV!"

[theist]

Yeah that photo shows nothing. I am also curious as to the source. I also thought Chalabi entered first in Southern Iraq. And there were not flags plastered all over. In the first days of the war I heard of one British Flag going up in Basra, and I may remember one American flag incident about the same time in Umm Sarif, just over the Kuwaiti border.

 

I do remember a lot of homemade American flags being waved by the freed Iraqi citizens. I also remember seeing lots of Saddam's pictures being smashed and spat upon.

 

One more thing to consider in your fair and balanced critique of the museum issue and that the sildiers should have done more. Remember that Baghdad is a city of five million people and they had just arrived. They were being shot at from many different spots and by 'soldiers' that took off their uniforms and wore civilian clothes. That is the ones that were actually from Iraq and not Syria, Saudia Arabia, Lebbanon and PLO members.

 

And also take into consideration that the 4th infantry was supposed to be there also and moving into Baghdad from the north. the stupid Turks couldn't make up their minds until the war had already started. Had they been there maybe they could have worried about the museum.

 

The US UK and other troops conducted themselves as first class soldiers. Did they rape and plunder? No.

 

Speaking of plunder did anyone else see the metal boxes they found at one of Saddam's palace's this morning? There was this small servant's quarters that had been cemented up, windows and doors, completely sealed. When they broke in they found 320 million dollars US in cash! This while the children of Iraq were dying at the pace of 5,000 a month from starvation and other malnution complications.And as the liberals tslk of the evil UN sanctions.

 

I forgot to mention that I also saw the event on Fox and heard the person at the square first say he thought there was about 1,000 people and then a few minutes later said were 1,500. the camera shot showed 150 to 200 at most.

[stonehearted]

Yes, what the photo shows is nothing--no masses of Iraqis from the neighborhood spontaneously tearing down the statue, but US Marines sealing off the square to they could control everything that went on there. If I can track down the source of those images, I'll let you folks know post haste. As I've said, I'm working on it.

 

 

As for US flags, there were several instances reported by the "embeds" of US troops raising American flags when they took over different places, and their commanders ordering them shortly after to take them down. One quotation from a commander: "Nice flag! Now take it down. We're supposed to be here to liberate these peple, not to conquer." That's just one incident; there were many others.

 

As for the box of cash in Saddam's palace: I'm not at all surprised, but you seem to be. Has anyone here ever said anything other than that Saddam Hussein is an evil man who plundered Iraq for 20-odd years?

 

One more time: The only point I made with the museum incident is that it showed poor contingency planning. These genereal are not idiots. I grew up with several of them, and their fathers were also generals--bright, patriotic, caring men. Some were good fathers and husbands, some were jerks. None was a dope. Many had strong ideological biases (as one or two of us here do) to the extent that one of our Government

teachers at Mount Vernon HS was fired because, in the comparative government section of the course, he had his seniors read the Communist Manifesto (how do you deal with an adversary if you don't know what he thinks?), and several parents vociferously protested.

 

Again, my main point is that you and I get all excited about ourselves, thinking we know what's going on. You and I are both wrong about that--we know only what the corporate media tell us, and, old friend, DoD is even better at manipulating the media than it was in Panama and Desert Storm. and any time anyone reports something Rummy don't like, the guy about craps his pants over it.

 

In the meantime, keep your eye on the shrub.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I know where it comes from. And it is not an unbiased source. Unless of course a site that has an official war protest section, has a section on hemp food taste testing, has environmental protesting, has a bizarre story of a restaurant commando style assault by the evil INS (with John Ashcrofts picture), and is unabashedly anti-war, can be called unbiased. Remember, this was carried live, by multiple networks, from multiple angles, and from people who were there. If you don’t believe Fox, fine. But should I believe in a website that has an official protest page over CNN? Over ABC? Over NBC? Over CBS? They can take a couple of still photos (from their angle), but you can watch moving photos, from all sorts of different angles, from many different sources. Keep searching, I’m interested if you can find the original “unbiased” source /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist]

"As for the box of cash in Saddam's palace: I'm not at all surprised, but you seem to be. Has anyone here ever said anything other than that Saddam Hussein is an evil man who plundered Iraq for 20-odd years?"

 

No I'm not surprised. What does surprise me is how in the face of countless atrocities that this war has put an ebd to, you choose to complain about a flag drapping incident.

 

So you admit Saddam was an evil man. Yet you are sitting back taking cheap shots at those who put they life on the line to do something about it.

 

"One more time: The only point I made with the museum incident is that it showed poor contingency planning.."

 

Which I previously addressed by my comments on the 4th infrantry not getting access through Turkey. See a connection? Pottery, no matter how old, could not have been high on the priorty list of soldiers who were concerned with not getting shot at from every window around them.

[stonehearted]

I'm not telling you to believe anyone. My point is that your belief in the corporate media or whoever is based stricly on faith. Witness your fealty to what you call a lack of bias. All are biased; we call those who share our biases fair and unbiased, and those who question it biased or dishonest. I never called the source unbiased. In fact, if you've been paying any attention at all, you'd know that's an absurd accusation. So why did you put that word in quotation marks? That may be evidence that you're not really listening but are all cocked and ready to make unwarranted assumptions.

 

Some folks need to take a deep breath and relax once in a while.

[stonehearted]

These pictures can be found many places on the Web. A Google search including only two words--Chalabi & statue--yielded a pile of hits. The image I posted (as an attachment) seems to originate with http://www.informationclearinghouse.info. The guy who runs this site lives in Imperial Beach in the South Bay area San Diego, that hotbed of radical insurrection. Most folks to the right of Jimmy Carter will no doubt consider any news source that calls itslef independent (except maybe Dredge) as biased, obviously commies. BTW, this site has links to all sorts of sources, some way to the left, others way on the right, and a whle bunch in between.

[stonehearted]

Actually I mentioned (with a note of complaint) serveral flag-draping incidents.

 

If you express your opinion, it's reasoned and true. If I suggest there was a flaw in planning, it a cheap shot? Give me a break I thought you were better than that. In fact, I have served in the military, I have been involved in contingency planning in wartime (among other things, I was editor of something called the Contingency Planning Facilities List), and I know a lot of folks who are incolved in this war, including a former gurukula student of mine who is a Navy SEAL. This is not abstract to me; it's real and it's personal. Still, I have been willing to admit all along that I don't have a lock on "The Truth." Care to join me?

[theist]

Sure I'll join you when you stop nitpicking on the coalition and start givning equal time to atrocities that Saddam commited. Other than "he's a bad boy".

 

OK you were on some planning committee. That makes your omission of the 4th infrantry in your criticism more surprising. When reminded of it you get defensive.

 

Fun sparring with you but its time to end. The unfortunate thing is I can't seem to let you or mahak have the last word. Counterpunching is based on reflexes. I am at your mercy.

[stonehearted]

theist: Sure I'll join you when you stop nitpicking on the coalition and start givning equal time to atrocities that Saddam commited. Other than "he's a bad boy".

 

B: Oh--I thought I was just trying to balance the cheerleading. I've conceded without reservation Saddam's atrocities. Sorry if I didn't list a catalog of them; I didn't think it necessary because there appeared to be a consenus that he's a monster. (That IS Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam in that old picture, isn't it?)

 

t: That makes your omission of the 4th infrantry in your criticism more surprising. When reminded of it you get defensive.

 

B: Hmmm . . . I haven't focused much on which specific units have done what, especially since my TV watching and newspaper reading have been sporadic at best. If I've seemed defensive about your comments on the 4th Infantry, it's certainly unintentional. There's no question that there was much valiant service on the part of our troops. My real complaints have been about some of the leadership--I've questioned whether shrub & co. really made the case they said they would (We know there are WMDs, and the fact that there's no evidence of them is proof they are there!) and whether Don & his generals should have foreseen some contingencies. Granted, the resistance we were led to expect did not materialize, which delights me, and that may have left them unprepared for having to deal with the next phase so soon. I'm no doubt remiss in not conceding that earlier. Casualties on both sides were much lower than we expected. Bravo! What are my complaints? Eager consumption of the product of the corporate media and cavalier shrugging off of "collateral damage," which means killing and breaking that which should not have been killed and broken. And I've defended not only your right to your opinion, but that opinion itself, to a sniping "guest." Yeah, I'm a real commie rectum.

 

t: Fun sparring with you but its time to end.

 

B: I'm glad it was fun for you. We should have closed this down long ago. Time is precious, and this isn't sport for me. (Neither is war entertainment, which is just what the media have made it, with their animated logos and theme music--including NPR for a little while. And just watch out for the Sunday-night movies about some incident in Nasaria, or Jessica Lynch's rescue, or something else I've missed because I was chatting with you rather than watching TV.)

 

I'm trying to think of something to say that will let you have one more shot, but all I can think of is, "Good night."

[theist]

nobody called you a commie rectum. Stop whinning.

 

Good night