idol worship

[theist]

Some so-called Christians and Muslims always accuse Hare Krsna's of idol worship because of the Deities on the altar. But then they fashion a "God",not of clay or brass, but of the stuff of imagination, based on scanty scriptures and then their own mis-conceptions of those scanty scriptures. Once formed they then proceed to worship these fanciful creations and think the ideas they worship are the "one true God".

 

The God realized saints have left us with descriptions of the Lord and activities, which appear human, so that we may avoid this trap. We have only need to hear them, and by the potency that is inherent in these descriptions our misconceptions of the Lord will be vanquished within our hearts and minds and the reality established.

 

We also have to be careful that we hear from the right sources and resist the impulse to speculative excessively on what we hear. When questions arise these we place them before the proper sources for clarification.

 

Without being receptive and humble before those saints who have realized the Lord we are left as helpless victims of our own imaginations also.

 

I am wondering if it is possible to be engaged in a form of idolatry even before a Deity that was installed by a great Acarya.

 

Can someone please explain Deity worship real and apparent?

[leyh]

Devotee: If someone looks at the Deity of Krsna and thinks it's only stone or wood, for him it's still material?

Srila Prabhupada: That is his ignorance. How can it be material? The stone is also Krsna's energy. For example, electricity is everywhere, and the electrician knows how to utilize it. Similarly, Krsna is everywhere, even in the stone, and the devotees know how to utilize stone to appreciate Krsna. The rascals do not know. The devotee knows because he has no other view than of Krsna. Why should the stone be without Krsna? "Here is Krsna." That is real oneness. The Mayavadi philosophers propose oneness, but they divide - this is stone, this is not Krsna. Why bring another thing?

Devotee: For a Krsna conscious person is Krsna as much in the stone as in the Deity?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.(Conversation, Los Angeles, May 14, 1973)

 

 

[stonehearted]

theist: Without being receptive and humble before those saints who have realized the Lord we are left as helpless victims of our own imaginations also.

 

I am wondering if it is possible to be engaged in a form of idolatry even before a Deity that was installed by a great Acarya.

 

Can someone please explain Deity worship real and apparent?

 

rockhead: What a wonderfully appropriate question for a theist to pose! I remember that years ago, during a visit to Honolulu, Dristadhyumna Swami (now B.V. Bhaktisar Maharaj) read a paper that Ravidnra Svarupa gave at an academic conference explaining the philosophy behind vaishnavas' practice of archana. I didn't see this on his web site last time I checked it, but I'll see if I can track it down somewhere.

 

More later.

[livingentity]

thought provoking questions!!

 

Not sure if I totally understand the question and I am certain that I would not be able to properly answer but if one is sincerely performing loving service to an authorized representation of the Supreme Lord then the Lord reveals Himself to the devotee in this form. However, if someone only sees the form as wood, plaster, or some other material substance and goes through the motions of service without sincerity in the heart then wouldn't that be just idol worship? The Lord would not reveal Himself in that case.

[theist]

leyh,

 

Is Srila Prabhupada saying that 'material' is only in the way we look at things?

[theist]

Babhruji, we will be looking for that paper. In the meantime

we would also like to hear your realizations on this subject.

 

I am at the mercy of the Vaisnanvas here. If you don't keep me engaged in topics like this I will surely remain fixated on the you know what all day.And my nerves can't take much more.

 

 

[theist]

LE. That is what I was thinking also. The danger is we can get this false sense of security by feeling that we are in the right atmosphere, like in a temple, and just fall asleep in our sadhana. Like a zombie just going through the motions.

 

When I am before the Deities I am not really recognizing God. It all becomes so familiar on the material plane that I just kind of tune out.

[livingentity]

Sometimes I am very focused and attentive but then there are times when I am not even realizing that I am in the room - like you said "asleep in our sadhana."

 

One day I was particularly distracted by mundane problems etc and totally "asleep". I snapped out of it when this image came into my head of Lord Krsna walking out of the deity and leaving!!! I was so ashamed of myself and realized just how fallen I had become.

 

I began wondering then if it would be less offensive when we are so distracted to not go before the deities and go through the motions. But then I also wonder if that is the time to go and work harder to focus and fix ourselves on the Lord.

[stonehearted]

My own realizations will take a little time to write down, but it will be one of the best things I've done for a while. and I will ry to distract you from yeah-I-know-what.

 

However, I'm about to take my wife and kids up to the summit of Mauna Kea for the day (and maybe into the evening). Yesterday Satyaki and I celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary, and this is how we're living it up--going up to see the observatories and look down on the rest of the world.

 

I'll check in tomorrow. We look forward to others' realizations, too. In the meantime, if anyone tracks down Ravindra's paper, post it for us. As I remember it, it's really cool--very systematic and philosphical.

 

Aloha.

[leyh]

I think what Srila Prabhupada is saying is that the Krsna Conscious person can use what is apparently material to appreciate Krsna, while for the non-Krsna Conscious person, the deity is just stone or wood.

 

Ultimately, whether the person is engaged in idoltaory or not all depends on his/her consciousness, I guess.

[Guest guest]

Yes, the muslims and christians are very confused. They denounce idolatry, yet fail to recognise that all forms of worship is in fact idolatry.They object to idols of the eye, but what of idols of the ear?

 

Whilst they proclaim God as formless, they worship God in name and attributes. God is truly formless, nameless and attributeless. This is all very well, but it is of no real use to humans in our spiritual state. That is why we worship God with name, form and attributes, which we were revealed by God Himself.

 

Whilst the muslims say that God is formless, they deny His ability to take form. This limitation reduces God's power - He is no longer All-Powerful/Omnipotent if He does not have the ability to take form if He so chooses.

 

N.B. Muslims pray towards a stone, which some say is a meteorite, others say the stone was brought from heaven. The bottom line is that muslims worship a stone, so the hypocrisy of calling Hindus idol-worshippers is astonishing. Make no mistake, the Kaaba stone is an object of veneration which pilgrims kiss.

[Guest guest]

"I am wondering if it is possible to be engaged in a form of idolatry even before a Deity that was installed by a great Acarya. "

 

yes.

 

sanatana dharma allows it.

when you pick a deity from the vedic literture

and start worshipping it,

no hindu would stop you even if they never have worshipped such a deity.

 

thus hinduism give you full freedom to worship any deity and prove to your self first that it does uplift you spiritually. when you see it that it does and people see it that it did, then they will follow you, become your disciples and worship that deity.

this is nothing but established scientific method.

 

if you concoct a deity and worship it,

you are fooling your self, and only the fools will follow you.

 

jai sri prabhupada!

 

 

[theist]

leyh posted this:

 

Devotee: If someone looks at the Deity of Krsna and thinks it's only stone or wood, for him it's still material?

 

Srila Prabhupada: That is his ignorance. How can it be material? The stone is also Krsna's energy. For example, electricity is everywhere, and the electrician knows how to utilize it. Similarly, Krsna is everywhere, even in the stone, and the devotees know how to utilize stone to appreciate Krsna. The rascals do not know. The devotee knows because he has no other view than of Krsna. Why should the stone be without Krsna? "Here is Krsna." That is real oneness. The Mayavadi philosophers propose oneness, but they divide - this is stone, this is not Krsna. Why bring another thing?

 

Devotee: For a Krsna conscious person is Krsna as much in the stone as in the Deity?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.(Conversation, Los Angeles, May 14, 1973)

 

With this in mind a question or two arises.

 

1)We are taught to treat the Deity much differently then we would a stone. Why?

 

2)We are also taught to treat different Deities in different ways. Why?

 

 

 

[leyh]

 

1)We are taught to treat the Deity much differently then we would a stone. Why?

 

2)We are also taught to treat different Deities in different ways. Why?

 

 

Dear theist:

 

Based on Srila Prabhupada's explanations,I think we We are taught to treat the Deity much differently then we would a stone because the deity is stone that is utilized by devotees to worship Krsna in an authorized manner. Hence, it is more worshippable then a stone.

 

This is just like a flag. Although it is made of cloth, when shaped into an authorized form to represent a nation, it becomes more respectable then the material it is made from.

 

I'm not sure about your second question. I'm sure many of the Vaishnavas here can enlighten us.

[theist]

Nice example leyh, I had never heard that. Authorized implies a person of authority, in this case a devotee. I take it that the Lord appears at the loving request of His devotee. Installation.

 

If I am correct in that, it just shows one more way we are dependent on the realized devotee to connect us up with the Lord.

 

As to #2, I trust someone will help us out there.

 

haribol

[stonehearted]

But there's more to it. The Deity is made in an authrized manner, but the devotees also perform a prana-pratishta, when the Lord is called to personally accept that form, and through it, the devotees' service. So it not just that a statue looks like Krishna and is therefore Krishna.

 

Morever, there are stones that are worshipable. One example is the Shiva lingam, which is considered to be a self-manifest form of Lord Shiva and so requires no prana-pratishta, since it is already Shiva. The shalagrama-shila is a natural form of Narayana and can be worshiped without an installation, and the Govardhana-shila is a natural form of Krishna.

 

We are taught to treat differnt Deities indifferent ways because they're actually people, not machines. We put our 75 cents in a machine and expect a can of soda, regardless of how we feel about it, whether or not we kick it, spit on it, or whatever. The Deity is Krishna (or whoever) appearing before us so we can engage our minds and senses in His (or her) service, to give those of us still conditioned by selfish desire to cultivate a personal relationship with that person. So just as I would behave differently with my old friend theist, or my dear old buddy Mahaksha, than I would with my dad,or with one of my daughters, we behave with a particular Deity in a way that's appropriate to that personality's mood, and, when we become advanced, with our relationship with that personality.

 

Deity worship is not meant as mechanical ritual but as a chance for us to practice growing our personal relationship with the Lord. The benefit derived from this activity, as withanydevotional activity, depends largely on the consciousness of the practitioner. One of the benefits of initiation, by the way, is that advanced devotees can train us in these matters; we can't really get it from reading a book.

[stonehearted]

theist: Babhruji, we will be looking for that paper. In the meantime we would also like to hear your realizations on this subject.

 

I am at the mercy of the Vaisnanvas here. If you don't keep me engaged in topics like this I will surely remain fixated on the you know what all day.And my nerves can't take much more.

 

Babhru: First, has anyone been able to track down that old paper Ravidnra wrote? It would have been in the early'80s. I don't know if any of our interlocutors here live back east, especially in the Philadelphia area, but if someone here does, maybe they could ask him about it.

 

My own understanding (I think that to call them realizations would be rather presumptuous) regarding Deity worship are reflected in seed form in my previous post. For those of us who are conditioned, it is a way for us to practice serviing Krishna with all our senses (Rupa defines devotion as serving the Master of the senses with senses purified of all sense of material identity), to practice trying to satisfy Him in different ways. It's apparently less important to those who are advanced, although many very advanced devotees see it as very important in their lives. When I spoke with B. V. Narayan Maharaja earlier this year, he told me that he doesn't do any archana, but he encouraged me to immerse myself in my service to my Thakurajis with my heart. (He reminded me that Raghunath das Goswami bathed his Giriraja with his tears.) Tripurari Maharaja has also encouraged me in my archana in several ways. On the other hand, we know what intense relationships the Goswamis had with their Thakurajis; Raghunath, of course, saw thegift of theGovardhana-shila and gunja-mala form Mahaprabhu as his opportunity to some day gain service to Sri Sri Radha-Krishna at Govardhana, and Gopal Bhatta's service to his Shalagrama-shila was so intense that it caused Radha-ramana to manifest Himself from the shila.

 

How we approach the Deity worship depends on several things, including our mentality and the setting. My service to my Deities at home has a somewhat different mood from my service at an ISKCON center, although I try to maintain a high household standard. The early morning, with intense japa and the service to my Deities, is the very best part of almost every day. Occasionally I have other opportunities for different kinds of association and service during the day, but I'm prepared for them by the grace of that early morning.