"They Should Not Leave Iskcon"

[Guest guest]

 

Raganuga is only for those who are liberated. Ergo, his fantasy about being raganuga is imagination.

 

 

very good, very good

 

(I recomand to ask raga about this)

 

 

To say that ISKCON teaches less than Sri Caitanya's ultimate desire is sheer petty nonsense, and very offensive.

 

 

very good, very good

 

What is Sri Caitanya's ultimate desire ?

Please go to an IsKcon temple, whatever you like,

and start asking ten devotees this question.

Ask kailasa!

try by shiva, or coyote first.

I don't think they know any verse in this connection.

[Guest guest]

I agree with gHari and Theist that it was wrong for that guest to attack Iskcon as he did. I was willing to defend him up to a point, because perhaps his only experience with Iskcon is recent. And as gHari remarked in the Hansadutta thread just a couple days back, "Iskcon died." Perhaps this guest was feeling that as well, hence his remarks, although as Theist rightly points out, Iskcon (or at least the Iskcon from better days) brought most of us to to Lord Caitanya's Movement. I also agree with Raga that it would be proper etiquette if guests refrained from strong challenges unless they are willing to identify themselves.

[livingentity]

will not endear yourself to anyone here.

 

Also, you are foolish if you believe that ISKCON does not teach Lord Caitanya's ultimate desire. There has been much hard work done by devotees in this regard. It is one of the first things that Prabhupada taught us when He came to the west.

 

 

very good, very good

 

What is Sri Caitanya's ultimate desire ?

Please go to an IsKcon temple, whatever you like,

and start asking ten devotees this question.

Ask kailasa!

try by shiva, or coyote first.

I don't think they know any verse in this connection.

 

 

[livingentity]

how many do you need?

 

I don't think they know any verse in this connection.

 

 

[raga]

 

Also, you are foolish if you believe that ISKCON does not teach Lord Caitanya's ultimate desire.

 

 

I don't find it fair that a person is designated as foolish before we give a fair trial to him. Let us examine the ultimate desire of Lord Caitanya and the activities of ISKCON, then we can arrive at a fair conclusion.

[raga]

 

how many do you need?

 

In reply to:

I don't think they know any verse in this connection.

 

 

Let's begin with five?

[gHari]

Let's face it: no one knows what is actually taught in ISKCON. We may see the Sunday feast lecture, the classes, the festivals, but we do not know what is communicated to worthy candidates. Srila Prabhupada always avoided giving more than just a hint to the general population. I know nothing, yet long ago I had read about these topics in the Nectar of Devotion and in the conversations with Ramananda Raya.

 

We will all remember Srila Prabhupada's anger, rage at the group who started the Gopi Bhava Club. "First deserve, then desire" was his teaching.

 

Despite what I said, I do not think that ISKCON is dead. A big second coming is coming. And I will be there; we all will be there. And it will be glorious.

 

gHari

[livingentity]

is how I perceived Guest number 1001's statements. If this is not the case then I stand corrected. I thought (thru my faulty senses) that he/she/it was saying that Srila Prabhupada does not teach us what Lord Caitanya's mission is.

 

As for the verses - that goes along the same line - I was going to prove that Srila Prabhupada brought us this message by pointing out verses from the Sri Caitanya Caritamrita. Actually, just pick a volume and open up to any page and viola there you are. There is also the "Teachings of Lord Caitanya".

 

Thank you to gHari for reminding us of the dangers of speculation. Easy trap to fall into.

 

 

[raga]

When our guest spoke of "ultimate reason", he must have referred to the internal reasons for the descent of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, namely (1) To taste His own sweetness, to understand the love of Radha and the happiness she feels, and (2) to spread raga-marga bhakti to the whole world. (See CC Adi 4.)

 

Since ISKCON primarily focuses on preaching to the masses, and indeed their preaching is also rather basic to the community of devotees, through empirical means it is hard to directly verify that they are in fact flooding the whole world in raga-marga bhakti.

 

It is a matter of faith I guess. However, people should be sensitive with the faith of others, regardless of their own opinion about the issue.

[Guest guest]

Dear Living Entity,

 

I never took it that the original guest was attacking Srila Prabhupada. Only the Iskcon institution, the 2003 version. When he was asking for quotes from the Caitanya Caritamrita, I took it that he meant Srila Prabhupada's epic version, which would indicate to me that said guest(1001) is definitely favorable towards Srila Prabhupada and probably considers him his siksa Guru. I think most of us can see the many changes/deviations which Iskcon has undergone over the decades since Srila Prabhupada's Disappearance, in which most sincere Temple devotees have been driven/coerced out of their Father's/Grandfather's institution. As gHari said, there's no need to speculate about the teachings of present-day Iskcon, one can discover quite easily via attending Bhagavatam classes and associating with the few devotees who are remaining in the Temples.

 

But I agree 100% with what you said about the guest's condescending attitude, and it was uncalled for. It certainly won't endear any of us to him nor the message he is attempting to convey. I don't necessarily think his message is wrong, just that by his tone and approach, he doesn't seem the one qualified to speak on these matters (raganuga), especially in a public forum where, as Raga alluded to, we are more inclined towards discussing basic topics. It definitely seems counter-productive to attempt to preach raganuga while attacking Srila Prabhupada's institution. Defects and deviations may be there, but a preacher of raganuga is transcendental to politics and fault-finding. I sincerely hope the guest has learned a lesson from the responses he's received. And I apologize for my initial knee-jerk reaction to gHari, as apparently I misunderstood what he was saying. There's a time and place for discussing/preaching raganuga, not to mention that there must be both a qualified speaker as well as a receptive audience. If these conditions are not present, then what's the point? Better to recite the 10 offenses to the Holy Name. Guest, are you listening?

 

---Guest3852

[Guest guest]

 

Since ISKCON primarily focuses on preaching to the masses, and indeed their preaching is also rather basic to the community of devotees, through empirical means it is hard to directly verify that they are in fact flooding the whole world in raga-marga bhakti.

 

 

They preach only basics.

Never pointing on Radha Krsna. I experienced, in all Iskcon temples I was, that

it is even forbidden to talk about Radha Krsna.

As qHari said, first you should be liberated, you are told.

 

 

I never took it that the original guest was attacking Srila Prabhupada. Only the Iskcon institution, the 2003 version. When he was asking for quotes from the Caitanya Caritamrita, I took it that he meant Srila Prabhupada's epic version, which would indicate to me that said guest(1001) is definitely favorable towards Srila Prabhupada and probably considers him his siksa Guru. I think most of us can see the many changes/deviations which Iskcon has undergone over the decades since Srila Prabhupada's Disappearance, in which most sincere Temple devotees have been driven/coerced out of their Father's/Grandfather's institution. As gHari said, there's no need to speculate about the teachings of present-day Iskcon, one can discover quite easily via attending Bhagavatam classes and associating with the few devotees who are remaining in the Temples.

 

 

Srila Bhakti Vedanta Svami Prabhupada meant well wanting to keep the unity of his institution, thinking that it should not happen as in Gaudya Math.

Instead of it the IsKcon devotees got a GBC totalitarian system, and the heart of bhakti which is sadhu sanga was replaced by some bhaktas sanga, which was named sadhu sanga.

In this connection IsKcon has a good chance to become a second Vatikan.

and it will never give the real thing, Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to give.

They even will preach against it. (they preach even now against it).

 

One should not see only the dark side.

They chant the Holy Name.

 

Prema vivarta, 7

 

AsAdhu saNgeta bhAi nAma nAhi haya

NAmAkSara bAhirAya bate nAma kabhu naya

Kabhu nAmAbhAsa sadAhaya nAma aparAdha

E saba jAnibe bhAi kRSNa bhaktir bAdha

Jadi karibe kRSNa nAma sAdhu saNga kara

Bhukti muktisiddhi cANchAdUre parihara

 

O brother! You cannot chant the Holy Name in the association of non devotees.

The sounds of the Holy Name may come out of your mouth,

but it will not really be the Name. I will sometimes be the Name’s reflection (nAmAbhAsa) and sometimes offensive chanting (nAma aparAdha),

but brother, you should know that in either case, this kind of chanting interferes with the attainment of pure devotion to Krishna.

If you want to chant the Holy Names, then associate with devotees and keep desires for sense enjoyment, liberation, and yogic powers at a distance.

 

 

 

Raga, if you have 5 verses, describing the mission of Sri Caitanya please post them,

I am eager to hear from you.

 

Please also post what is the condition to come to raga marga.

[stonehearted]

I also assumed that what our guest was addressing. Regarding whether ISKCON or any of the Sarasvata-Gaudiya missions are flooding the world with raga-bhakti, it may help to consider the insight of Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

 

vidhi-marga-rata jane svadhinata ratna dane

raga-marge karan pravesa

raga-vasavarti haiya parakiya bhavasraye

labhe jiva krsna-premavesa

 

"To the person fixed in the regulative principles, the Holy Name gives the jewel of independence, placing him on the path to spontaneous devotion. That person, overcome by spontaneous attachment to the Lord, takes shelter of the parakiya mood and goes on to become absorbed in love for Krishna."

 

What's being taught by Srila Prabhupada, following Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Bhaktivinoda Thakura, is to begin by taking shelter of a spiritual master and following scriptural injunctions by chanting the Holy Name as much as possible, with the aim of ultimately following the devotion of the Vraja-vasis. That much of the preaching appears on a basic, strictly vidhi-marga platform does not mean the real goal is being neglected. Our understanding is simply that those of us enmeshed in following the urges of the mind and senses cannot actually experience the greed for Krishna consciousness so often discussed. That greed is inherent, but gradually becomes manifest (or uncovered, if you like) through the stages descibed by Srila Rupa (adau sraddha, etc.).

 

It's a fact, in my experience, that ISKCON seems to provide little facility (so far, at least) for advancing in genuine experience beyond the basics. To the extent that long-time serious practicioners have been unable to find association to guide them in that progressive experience, this is a serious shortcoming. I know that I'm not alone in recognizing that. I don't know to what extent the society's leadership recognizes it or has a plan to deal with it.

[Guest guest]

 

In this connection IsKcon has a good chance to become a second Vatikan.

and it will never give the real thing, Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to give.

They even will preach against it. (they preach even now against it).

 

 

Yes at this forum we have some prominent examples:

kailasa and shiva.

[Guest guest]

 

It's a fact, in my experience, that ISKCON seems to provide little facility (so far, at least) [b}for advancing in genuine experience beyond the basics. To the extent that long-time serious practicioners have been unable to find association to guide them in that progressive experience, this is a serious shortcoming. I know that I'm not alone in recognizing that. I don't know to what extent the society's leadership recognizes it or has a plan to deal with it.

 

 

 

After some time one realize this, and if he is looking for sadhu sanga he is banned, and than comes gapaladasa and says you should not leave IsKcon.

Don't go to Narayan Maharaja!

Don't go to Gaudya Math.

Don't go to babaji!

This is betraying Srila Prabhupada!

[Guest guest]

 

In reply to:

--

 

It's a fact, in my experience, that ISKCON seems to provide little facility (so far, at least) [b}for advancing in genuine experience beyond the basics. To the extent that long-time serious practicioners have been unable to find association to guide them in that progressive experience, this is a serious shortcoming. I know that I'm not alone in recognizing that. I don't know to what extent the society's leadership recognizes it or has a plan to deal with it.

 

 

--

 

After some time one realize this, and if he is looking for sadhu sanga he is banned, and than comes gapaladasa and says you should not leave IsKcon.

Don't go to Narayan Maharaja!

Don't go to Gaudya Math.

Don't go to babaji!

This is betraying Srila Prabhupada!

 

 

No, this is only politics!

[raga]

 

Raga, if you have 5 verses, describing the mission of Sri Caitanya please post them,

I am eager to hear from you.

Please also post what is the condition to come to raga marga.

 

 

I would appreaciate if you first identified yourself.

 

Based on your approach and the verses you have cited, it appears to me as characteristics of a follower of Narayan Maharaja. Am I mistaken?

 

5 verses will have to wait until the evening. For qualification for raga-marga, please refer to the "qualification" page found under the www-link in my signature.

[Guest guest]

RagaJi, it is well you are following my Rule Number Five.

[Guest guest]

 

5 verses will have to wait until the evening. For qualification for raga-marga, please refer to the "qualification" page found under the www-link in my signature.

 

 

 

I personally don't need.

Please understand.

Please be delicate with you.

you are qualified to speak.

 

sakala jagate more kare vidhi bhakti

vighi bhaktye vraja bhava paite nahi shakti

sishvarya jnanaete saba jagat miSrita

aisvarya Sithila preme nahi mora prita

aiSvarya jNane vidhi bhajana kariya

vaikunthake jaya catur vidha mukti pana

 

Everyon throughout the world worships Me according to scriptural injunctions; but by this process of vidhi bhakti one cannot attain the loving moods of Vraja.

The vhole world looks upon Me with awe and veneration, but devotion diluted by such consciousness of My majesty is not preferred by Me.

One who worships according to the scriptural iinjunctions in a mood of awe and veneration attains the four kinds of liberation and goes to Vaikuntha.

 

(Chaitanya CharitAmRta 1..3.15-7)

 

Preach always the ideal

because you will please guru, mahaprabhu,

radha and the gopis

and some day caterpilars

will be buterflies

[theist]

Yes the goal is beyond Vaikuntha. Such high aspirations one must have. But I have a question. If those devotees who prefer awe and veneration go to Vaikuntha what is the destination of those that try to take to raganuga prematurely and simply imitate for whatever resaon?

 

This question is really on one of curiousity as in my real life and in my heart I am somewhere below vaidhi in practice.

[raga]

 

Yes the goal is beyond Vaikuntha. Such high aspirations one must have. But I have a question. If those devotees who prefer awe and veneration go to Vaikuntha what is the destination of those that try to take to raganuga prematurely and simply imitate for whatever resaon?

This question is really on one of curiousity as in my real life and in my heart I am somewhere below vaidhi in practice.

 

 

Since lobha is the qualification for raganuga-sadhana, and lobha is defined as that desire (for attaining the feelings of a Vraja-associate) which awakens without the force of scriptural commandment or logical conclusion, it is ludicrous to think that one could force himself into the practice of raganuga-sadhana just because he heard it should be done. It is never possible, such a person simply deceives himself. When greed for attaining the sweetness for the moods of the Vraja-loka attains, then qualification arises, and one begins to practice. Without eligibility one cannot practice, it will merely create a disturbance in the assembly of learned and thoughtful devotees.

[Guest guest]

Srila Gour Govinda Swami said on different occasions "I have opened a crying school here(Bhubaneswar)Unless we cry for Krishna how can we get Him?"

 

Krishna and sadhus are the seers and we are the seen. How do we know who is a sadhu? Better not to criticise for fear of committing vaisnava aparadha.

 

Maharaja also mentioned that those who criticise ISKCON cause pain to Srila Prabhupada.

 

-Hare Krishna.

[theist]

 

Without eligibility one cannot practice

 

 

I have looked upon vaidhi-bhakti as the means to gain eligibity. Not so much directly by merit but by clearing the way of false desires and by coming in contact with sadhus who can themselves bestow it by association.

 

Am I on the right track here Madhavananda das or no?

[raga]

 

I have looked upon vaidhi-bhakti as the means to gain eligibity. Not so much directly by merit but by clearing the way of false desires and by coming in contact with sadhus who can themselves bestow it by association.

 

Am I on the right track here Madhavananda das or no?

 

 

Particularly the bold part of it is on the right track. False desires may go now or later, but when sadhu-kripa comes, they start fleeing out of the chamber of the heart rapidly.

 

If we were to examine the position of vaidhi-bhakti as a means to attain eligibility for raganuga, we could coin it a supportive cause. There are both vaidhi and raganugiya sadhus. The first cannot bestow what the second can, for the Vraja-anuraga which is transmitted from the heart through sadhu-kripa is not present in the first one. The kripa of the first kind of sadhu manifests as sastriya-sraddha, as faith in the scriptures.

 

Mercy is always the ingredient cause and the direct cause of eligibility, and it is unmerited, without a pre-calculated means for its attainment.

[Guest guest]

"You defend an institution!

in the name of its founder acarya."

 

You attacked an institution.

in the name of.... preaching raganuga bhakti.

Several devotees were offended by this.

I tried to smooth things over to help save your behind.

Srila Narayana Maharaja has stated many times,

"Do not criticize Iskcon."

But you cannot follow this simple instruction.

How do you expect to convince others of your message

When you speak to them in a condescending attitude?

You anger and alienate your audience, then expect them

To sympathize with your message?

 

"Better defend bhakti

whose backbone is

the pure devotee."

 

There would be no need to defend bhakti or

The pure devotees

If you were able to control your urge for

Sending engraved invitations to others

To commit the offenses in the first place.

 

You are trying to preach to an audience which

Is not receptive to your message.

When you try to force the issue

You only make things worse.

 

Can you not see this?

 

No one was committing any offenses to Srila Narayana Maharaja

Until you started preaching to them as if they were your students.

 

You need to learn the art of discretion.

Preach to the innocent, those who are favorable.

And then there will be no need to defend bhakti

Whose backbone is the pure devotee.

 

Please, I implore you.

 

---A friend

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey man,

Sorry man,

I don’t want to criticize ISKCON.

Whatever I said, might sound hard.

But you can go to any ISKCON temple you want,

You will never hear something about the love of Radha Krsna,

they even forbid related topics

If you think this is OK, I don’t know

And if you think that this was the mission of Sri Caitanya.

OK.

I don’t say ISKCON is bad.

Bur for over 20 years of hearing ISKCON gurus, comparing with what I heard by chance somewhere else, I can say, and I speak for myself (but you can read also what the other wrote here in this connection) they don’t preach the mission of Sri Caintanya.

They preach only basics of vaisnavism.

And they are not even aware of it.

If you say it, they take it as an offence.

 

You know man 20 years long you hear the same thing,

and nobody helps you to come further. You are being said: just continue to do your service.

I don’t know.

 

If this is what Srila B. Svami Prabhupada wanted?

I doubt.

It is my right to go where I am attracted to go.

I didn’t leave ISKCON because of material interests, but because of boring association, and it would be once again offensive to start and enumerate more reasons.

You know kundali's books.