How does karma work?

[Guest guest]

Is it something that just happens at points in time, or is karma constantly happening to people? Another way to ask the question, is karma only major events (say a car crash, or winning the lotto) or are minor things like breathing, which direction you turn, when you scratch your head etc... all karma?

[gHari]

It's like done with levers and pulleys, dude.

[gHari]

Perhaps karma can be more easily understood as a major principle of nature when we see it as the result of the manifestation of attachment or mundane desire. No one knows when our karma began and the material nature is expert in increasing its hold on us through increasing our attachment to the results of our activities. Effectively everything we do is the result of these desires which drive us to enjoy as lords.

 

Perhaps some autonomic processes like breathing which are not performed consciously are simply nature, but still some breathing can be good karma (liberating from material conditioning) in certain ages. Yet, really all activity is born of our nature.

 

Gradually, enjoying or suffering according to the results of these actions we take according to our natures, we will learn that Krsna is the real enjoyer. As we act to please Him instead of ourselves then our nature, our karma becomes purified. Eventually we will not need a material form to satisify our desires - we will only need our eternal spiritual form.

 

This is an extensive topic. I guess that is why my first reaction was to laugh and joke. Here are some quotations from the guru A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and his Master describing some aspects of the law of karma, considering karma as the result of ignorance and evil desires, as fruitive activity, and as the reaction to action, good or bad:<blockquote><center>Brahma Samhita 5.54

 

yas tv indragopam athavendram aho sva-karma-

bandhAnurUpa-phala-bhAjanam Atanoti

karmANi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhAjAM

govindam Adi-puruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi

</center>

yaH--He who (Govinda); tu--but; indra-gopam--to the small red insect called indragopa; atha vA--or even; indram--to Indra, king of heaven; aho--oh; sva-karma--of one's own fruitive activities; bandha--bondage; anurUpa--according to; phala--of reactions; bhAjanam--enjoying or suffering; Atanoti--bestows; karmANi--all fruitive activities and their reactions; nirdahati--destroys; kintu--but; ca--also; bhakti-bhAjAm--of persons engaged in devotional service; govindam--Govinda; Adi-puruSam--the original person; tam--Him; aham--I; bhajAmi--worship.

 

I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who burns up to their roots all fruitive activities of those who are imbued with devotion and impartially ordains for each the due enjoyment of the fruits of one's activities, of all those who walk in the path of work, in accordance with the chain of their previously performed works, no less in the case of the tiny insect that bears the name of indragopa than in that of Indra, king of the devas.

 

PURPORT

God impartially induces the fallen souls to act in the way that is consequent on the deeds of their previous births and to enjoy the fruition of their labors but, out of His great mercy to His devotees, He purges out, by the fire of ordeal, the root of all karma, viz., nescience and evil desires. Karma, though without beginning, is still perishable. The karma of those, who work with the hope of enjoying the fruits of their labors, becomes everlasting and endless and is never destroyed. The function of sannyAsa is also a sort of karma befitting an Azrama and is not pleasant to KRSNa when it aims at liberation, i.e., desire for emancipation. They also receive fruition of their karma and, even if it be disinterested, their karma ends in Atma-mamatA, i.e., self-pleasure; but those who are pure devotees always serve KRSNa by gratifying His senses forsaking all attempts of karma and jJAna, and being free from all desires save that of serving KRSNa. KRSNa has fully destroyed the karma, its desires and nescience of those devotees. It is a great wonder that KRSNa, being impartial, is fully partial to His devotees.

 

==============

 

And then the last question is: "Does KRSNa consciousness bring in karmic action as part of its belief?" Yes. KRSNa consciousness activities apparently seem to be karma. We must understand what is the difference between karma and bhakti. Just like we are using this tape recorder, this microphone. So if you go to your politician you'll find the same paraphernalia. I'm speaking and he's also speaking interview. So apparently we are all the same. But this is bhakti and that is karma. What is the difference between bhakti and karma? Karma means you do something and whatever you do there is result. So you take the result also. Suppose you do some business. So the result is one million dollars profit. So you take it. And the result is one million dollars loss. You take it. This is karma. You act on your own account and you take the result. Is it clear? This is called karma. But our activity is for KRSNa. So we act. If there is profit it is KRSNa's. If there is loss it is KRSNa's. We are unaffected. We are making this preaching work of KRSNa consciousness. If somebody comes he's KRSNa's, he's not mine. These boys serving me, not for my sense gratification, for developing KRSNa consciousness. Similarly, if he goes to serve a master, he serves the master for the sense gratification of the particular person. Therefore he pays him. So he does not serve that master. He serves that payment. And what is that payment? For his sense gratification. Therefore he serves his sense gratification. The karma is serving one's sense gratification. And bhakti is serving KRSNa's sense gratification. KRSNa will be satisfied in this way. We work in that way. So it is not karma. And as soon as they'll work: "Oh, I'll get this money and satisfy my senses." That is karma. So I become subject to the result. It may be good or bad. But when you work for KRSNa it is all good. There is no question of bad. And all good goes to the All Good. I'm simply His eternal servant. That's all. Another example: this finger takes some foodstuff and gives to the stomach. So when the stomach is satisfied, the finger is satisfied automatically. It does not require to take separately any food. But the karmis are trying to enjoy themselves just like the finger. If it takes a nice cake and if he thinks that why shall I give it to the stomach? So it cannot eat. It simply spoils. That's all. So we are spoiling our energy without KRSNa consciousness. And therefore you are being subjected to the laws of transmigrating from one species of life. We are simply spoiling our time and energy. So if we take to KRSNa consciousness that is the proper utilization of our energy given by God. Just like if I'm healthy the finger is also healthy. Then what is the duty of the healthy finger? To serve this body. Similarly, we have got this energy from KRSNa, from God. So if you utilize this energy from KRSNa then it is proper utilization. If you utilize the energy for your sense gratification then you are misusing it. So anyone who is not in KRSNa consciousness, he's spoiling his time, wasting his life and subjecting himself in so many laws of nature. So these things are very nicely explained in this Bhagavad-gItA As It Is. This is the preliminary study of KRSNa consciousness and if one studies this book nicely then he goes to other books. I've got this SrImad-BhAgavatam. This is also KRSNa consciousness.

 

==============

 

Now unless one is taken to this KRSNa consciousness practice, he has got so many doubts. "Why I shall do this? Why I shall do that?" But when he is raised to the platform of goodness, as it is expressed, mukta-saGgasya jAyate, bhagavat-tattva-vijJAnam, when he understand the science of God, automatically he becomes disinterested with these unwanted things. KSIyante ca asya karmANi. KarmANi, karmANi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhAjAm [bs. 5.54]. We are bound up in this material existence due to our karma. According to my past karma, I have got this body, and again, as we are acting in this body, I am preparing forward my next body. KarmaNA daiva-netreNa. We have got varieties of body, varieties of body. Not that because we are all human beings... We have got common factors--two hands, two legs, one head--but each body is different from the other body. You won't find one pair of body exactly of the same nature. That is not possible. Because everyone's karma is different. KarmaNA daiva-netreNa. According to our karma, we get different types of body. So we have to stop this karma. We have to stop this karma. How you can stop this karma? YajJArthe karmaNaH anyatra karma-bandhanaH. If we simply act for KRSNa, then we get rid of the resultant action of karma. YajJArthe karma. Whatever you do, you do for KRSNa. YajJArthe. YajJa means ViSNu. KRSNa's the origin of viSNu-tattva. So whatever you are ordered to do for KRSNa, you are not bound up by the karma. Otherwise, good or bad, you are bound up by the resultant action of karma.

</blockquote>

 

I personally see all karma as Krsna's mercy. If I put my hand in a flame, it hurts. But that is good .... for if I leave my hand in the fire it will burn to charcoal and become useless. That I not remain useless forever, Krsna kindly arranges to teach me through the laws of karma. The further I deviate from His desire, the more dramatic and sobering the karmic result needs to be. Gradually I will learn, and crawl out of the slime.

 

gHari

[gHari]

Whenever the mouse scratches his head, a lump of cheese falls into the cage. Eventually the mouse becomes conditioned to scratching its head whenever it becomes hungry; even after the experiment is over.

 

The mouse became conditioned, developed the nature, to scratch its hungry head by being attached to the results of scratching its head - namely the cheese.

 

Our conditioned nature will cause us to walk left or right, scratch our heads, or smile. So too has developed our intense urge to enjoy material nature. More cheese.

 

So now we have a little mouse walking around scratching his head for no damn good reason known to him. It is his karma to scratch his head, his conditioning, his nature, his attachment. These topics are all interrelated like this. But the real question now becomes apparent: how do I get beyond all this conditioning, take control, and live a real life?

 

 

[No actual mice were killed or harmed in any way during the production of this post]

[gHari]

 

 

The Matrix has you.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

karma is every moment of your life,

what good or bad you do knowingly or unknowingly.

 

to not do anything is also a karma.

 

some people use word karma to mean bad karma only.

to know what is good karnma and how to do it and when, where, etc. requires knowledge and awareness.

 

a KC person usually does good karma.

 

jai sri prabhupada!

 

[xxvvii]

The most dif. q. is the most simple q. If you have a tumble you'll stand up sooner or later, or you'll feel uncomfortable.

[Enlightened]

I always thought Karma was synonymous to attachment. The attachment to a certain notion or precept leads us to act in a conditioned way, thus leaving us in the bondage of working for something and trying to enjoy it. However, we never realize that we are never the enjoyers in the first place. Even though the desire seems to be the one that will give us pleasure, it is just deceiving us by making us think that with out "fullfilling" our "desire", we are not complete.

 

This type of conditioned state is basic karma cycle , I think (well, thats what I read). If we act selflessly by no attachment to the action or desire itself, this notion of karma disappears just like a dream becomes unreal after one wakes up from sleep. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

In reality Krishna enjoys us all, we don't enjoy anything, however, we do enjoy indirectly by making Krishna enjoy, because our real satisfaction comes from the enjoyment of krishna.

 

Well i do it in a certain way: I try to renounce my anger , delusion, ego, frustration, notion of discrimination... (even though i fail half of the time, I am making progress)

 

I am trying to attain : Humility, equanmity, a sense of helping nature and i am trying to work in community service programs to help people and stuff.

 

Its not much for a 17 yr old, but its okay, I will do more in the future.

 

[Streetstraw]

"Karma doesn't work; you have to push it."

Please hear, chant & read Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur's song:

anadi karama phale

Srila Prabhupad's version includes purport.

Kundali & Satya-Narayan's book "In Vaikuntha Not Even Leaves Fall" explains 'anadi' in depth.

[Guest guest]

"I personally see all karma as Krsna's mercy"

 

What is so merciful about god punishing his own children? If you lose an arm or leg, is it krishna's mercy? You call it karma, a respectable term, but i call it punishment. I just can't accept a god that punishes its children so mercilessly, and blaming it on karma. Let me be more specific. When our soldiers were mutilated in the kargil war, what did they do to deserve that? Were their "sins" in previous lives so terrible that they had to be mutilated (and thereby exhaust their karma) in this life? I am not mocking your beliefs, but I am wondering if karma can really explain a horrible punishment such as mutilation, disease like AIDS, cancer, starvation etc. Please explain.

[Guest guest]

Whether I am able to explain for other karmas ornot I can certainly say if someone get AIDS, its because of his orher own actions espcially involving himself in different kinds of sexual acts, so he pays for it. yes its how the karma theory operates..

 

[Guest guest]

I just gave the Aids example, but you don't have to stick to it. What about cancer, starvation etc.? It is so clever of you to explain AIDS by pointing to sexual indulgence, but what did the cancer patients do to deserve this cruelty? Have you even looked at people on chemotherapy? Have you looked at their helpless little faces? Have you seen emaciated people starving on the streets? What the hell did they all do to suffer so much?

[gHari]

The answer to this question was given in that very paragraph. Read more slowly:<blockquote> If I put my hand in a flame, it hurts. But that is good .... for if I leave my hand in the fire it will burn to charcoal and become useless. That I not remain useless forever, Krsna kindly arranges to teach me through the laws of karma. The further I deviate from His desire, the more dramatic and sobering the karmic result needs to be. Gradually I will learn, and crawl out of the slime.</blockquote>

If my hand does not hurt in the flame, and hurt badly, I will not be urged to remove it quickly. Can you tell a heroin junkie to just say 'no' to drugs, and expect results? The greater the attachment, the greater the deviation, the louder the wakeup call needs to be. It becomes more difficult to be attached to a material body that is filled with pain.

 

Those who did the mutilating will some day find out how unpleasant it is to be mutilated. As ye sow so shall ye reap. It is we who say what is punishment and what is reward. The fact is, we have no idea what is good and what is bad. We measure results solely on our attachments. With our limited conception of reality, it is no wonder that we cannot see the actual cause and effect relationship of things. So the junkie becomes happy with a bag of heroin, having no clue about what is really going on. We also have not a clue, measuring goodness in terms of sensual pleasures. God takes away your bag of heroin or bag of blood and bones and you freak out. Both are irrational responses, but eventually we learn to deal with it. The wise are not disturbed by such temporary changes.

 

We will not get far in spiritual life, seeing God as our tormentor. Actually, I am wondering why an atheist would bother posting here. I guess this explains the arrogance and repugnance, or is it the other way around. I can never tell whether it is the chicken or the egg that comes first. But it may be that you do not see the logical nature of karma because you do not realize that it stretches from life to life. Just think, if our bodies didn't die we'd never ever bother thinking about why we exist - it would all just be senseless sensual partying non-stop.

[Guest guest]

to ban atheists. Atheists are humans too, and if I remember corretly, Kaplia was an atheist too. Hinduism is an atheistic philosophy, unlike Islam and Christianity. It encourages people to think, and not accept things blindly.

 

Coming back, you haven't answered my question at all. I do not know what kind of god would allow their children to suffer and die. If you say suffering is a necessary lesson to make a man advance on the spiritual path, then why does god make good people suffer? My neighbor was the most generous man I've known, and he died of cancer. Where is god's mercy in that? He didn't just die, he suffered intolerable agony, which is worse than death itself. Also our soldiers who were fighting for this rotten country-what sin did they commit apart from loving this godforsaken country? Where is the justice in that? When you and I are afraid of the dark, young soldiers protected this ungrateful nation by fighting monsters from across the border. So I guess god rewarded such honorable men with mutilation, eh?

 

If there is justice under the sky, I certainly don't see it.Good people are suffering all the time, whilst the evil ones are having a jolly good time.

[gHari]

The person riding in the body of a peasant was mutilated by that soldier ten lifetimes ago when the Muslim hordes invaded India. Now the peasant in another body is mutilating the soldier. It all comes back, karma.

 

It's just the way things work. We know that if we drive our car as fast as possible into a stone wall, we will likely die. That's just physics. Karma is also a law of nature; there is always a reaction to action taken. It is not as easy to see the mechanics behind the working of this law, yet that does not eradicate the law.

 

You may complain after driving your car into the wall at high speed, but it's just the way things work. You may complain after eating too many spicy foods that you feel bad, but that is just nature. But all that is not God's fault. After all, we have free will.

 

You can accept God's instruction on these matters from the Bhagavad-gita or you can just guess at reality. You can guess about driving into the wall at high speed if you want. That is not God's fault; after all you have free will.

[xxvvii]

What is comfortable? Shanti.

[gHari]

Verse 1.7.5 from the Srimad Bhagavatam courtesy of another timely thread seems to explain quite well our situation with karma:<blockquote><center>

yayA sammohito jIva

AtmAnaM tri-guNAtmakam

paro 'pi manute 'narthaM

tat-kRtaM cAbhipadyate

</center>

yayA--by whom; sammohitaH--illusioned; jIvaH--the living entities; AtmAnam--self; tri-guNa-Atmakam--conditioned by the three modes of nature, or a product of matter; paraH--transcendental; api--in spite of; manute--takes it for granted; anartham--things not wanted; tat--by that; kRtam ca--reaction; abhipadyate--undergoes thereof.

Due to this external energy, the living entity, although transcendental to the three modes of material nature, thinks of himself as a material product and thus undergoes the reactions of material miseries.

 

PURPORT

The root cause of suffering by the materialistic living beings is pointed out with remedial measures which are to be undertaken and also the ultimate perfection to be gained. All this is mentioned in this particular verse. The living being is by constitution transcendental to material encagement, but he is now imprisoned by the external energy, and therefore he thinks himself one of the material products. And due to this unholy contact, the pure spiritual entity suffers material miseries under the modes of material nature. The living entity misunderstands himself to be a material product. This means that the present perverted way of thinking, feeling and willing, under material conditions, is not natural for him. But he has his normal way of thinking, feeling and willing. The living being in his original state is not without thinking, willing and feeling power. It is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gItA that the actual knowledge of the conditioned soul is now covered by nescience. Thus the theory that a living being is absolute impersonal Brahman is refuted herein. This cannot be, because the living entity has his own way of thinking in his original unconditional state also.

 

The present conditional state is due to the influence of the external energy, which means that the illusory energy takes the initiative while the Supreme Lord is aloof. The Lord does not desire that a living being be illusioned by external energy. The external energy is aware of this fact, but still she accepts a thankless task of keeping the forgotten soul under illusion by her bewildering influence. The Lord does not interfere with the task of the illusory energy because such performances of the illusory energy are also necessary for reformation of the conditioned soul. An affectionate father does not like his children to be chastised by another agent, yet he puts his disobedient children under the custody of a severe man just to bring them to order. But the all-affectionate Almighty Father at the same time desires relief for the conditioned soul, relief from the clutches of the illusory energy. The king puts the disobedient citizens within the walls of the jail, but sometimes the king, desiring the prisoners' relief, personally goes there and pleads for reformation, and on his doing so the prisoners are set free. Similarly, the Supreme Lord descends from His kingdom upon the kingdom of illusory energy and personally gives relief in the form of the Bhagavad-gItA, wherein He personally suggests that although the ways of illusory energy are very stiff to overcome, one who surrenders unto the lotus feet of the Lord is set free by the order of the Supreme.

 

This surrendering process is the remedial measure for getting relief from the bewildering ways of the illusory energy. The surrendering process is completed by the influence of association. The Lord has suggested, therefore, that by the influence of the speeches of saintly persons who have actually realized the Supreme, men are engaged in His transcendental loving service. The conditioned soul gets a taste for hearing about the Lord, and by such hearing only he is gradually elevated to the platform of respect, devotion and attachment for the Lord. The whole thing is completed by the surrendering process. Herein also the same suggestion is made by the Lord in His incarnation of VyAsadeva. This means that the conditioned souls are being reclaimed by the Lord both ways, namely by the process of punishment by the external energy of the Lord, and by Himself as the spiritual master within and without. Within the heart of every living being the Lord Himself as the Supersoul (ParamAtmA) becomes the spiritual master, and from without He becomes the spiritual master in the shape of scriptures, saints and the initiator spiritual master. This is still more explicitly explained in the next zloka.

 

Personal superintendence of the illusory energy is confirmed in the Vedas (the Kena UpaniSad) in relation to the demigods' controlling power. Herein also it is clearly stated that the living entity is controlled by the external energy in a personal capacity. The living being thus subject to the control of external energy is differently situated. It is clear, however, from the present statement of BhAgavatam that the same external energy is situated in the inferior position before the Personality of Godhead, or the perfect being. The perfect being, or the Lord, cannot be approached even by the illusory energy, who can only work on the living entities. Therefore it is sheer imagination that the Supreme Lord is illusioned by the illusory energy and thus becomes a living being. If the living being and the Lord were in the same category, then it would have been quite possible for VyAsadeva to see it, and there would have been no question of material distress on the part of the illusioned being, for the Supreme Being is fully cognizant. So there are so many unscrupulous imaginations on the part of the monists to endeavor to put both the Lord and the living being in the same category. Had the Lord and the living beings been the same, then SrIla Sukadeva GosvAmI would not have taken the trouble to describe the transcendental pastimes of the Lord, for they would all be manifestations of illusory energy.

 

SrImad-BhAgavatam is the summum bonum remedy for suffering humanity in the clutches of mAyA. SrIla VyAsadeva therefore first of all diagnosed the actual disease of the conditioned souls, i.e., their being illusioned by the external energy. He also saw the perfect Supreme Being, from whom illusory energy is far removed, though He saw both the diseased conditioned souls and also the cause of the disease. And the remedial measures are suggested in the next verse. Both the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the living beings are undoubtedly qualitatively one, but the Lord is the controller of the illusory energy, whereas the living entity is controlled by the illusory energy. Thus the Lord and the living beings are simultaneously one and different. Another point is distinct herein: that eternal relation between the Lord and the living being is transcendental, otherwise the Lord would not have taken the trouble to reclaim the conditioned souls from the clutches of mAyA. In the same way, the living entity is also required to revive his natural love and affection for the Lord, and that is the highest perfection of the living entity. SrImad-BhAgavatam treats the conditioned soul with an aim to that goal of life.

</blockquote>

 

gHari

 

[gHari]

I could not leave anyone hanging for the secret that was hinted to in the last quote:<blockquote><center>anarthopazamaM sAkSAd

bhakti-yogam adhokSaje

lokasyAjAnato vidvAMz

cakre sAtvata-saMhitAm

</center>

anartha--things which are superfluous; upazamam--mitigation; sAkSAt--directly; bhakti-yogam--the linking process of devotional service; adhokSaje--unto the Transcendence; lokasya--of the general mass of men; ajAnataH--those who are unaware of; vidvAn--the supremely learned; cakre--compiled; sAtvata--in relation with the Supreme Truth; saMhitAm--Vedic literature.

The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned VyAsadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth.

 

PURPORT

SrIla VyAsadeva saw the all-perfect Personality of Godhead. This statement suggests that the complete unit of the Personality of Godhead includes His parts and parcels also. He saw, therefore, His different energies, namely the internal energy, the marginal energy and the external energy. He also saw His different plenary portions and parts of the plenary portions, namely His different incarnations also, and he specifically observed the unwanted miseries of the conditioned souls, who are bewildered by the external energy. And at last he saw the remedial measure for the conditioned souls, namely, the process of devotional service. It is a great transcendental science and begins with the process of hearing and chanting the name, fame, glory, etc., of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Revival of the dormant affection or love of Godhead does not depend on the mechanical system of hearing and chanting, but it solely and wholly depends on the causeless mercy of the Lord. When the Lord is fully satisfied with the sincere efforts of the devotee, He may endow him with His loving transcendental service. But even with the prescribed forms of hearing and chanting, there is at once mitigation of the superfluous and unwanted miseries of material existence. Such mitigation of material affection does not wait for development of transcendental knowledge. Rather, knowledge is dependent on devotional service for the ultimate realization of the Supreme Truth.

</blockquote>

 

gHari

 

[Guest guest]

Maybe those people who are starving now or going through chemo, are paying for being rotten in a previous life. You cant tell me Hitle is going to come back and live a life of luxury! I sure would hope he'd get the chance to expierence

the hell and torment that he inflicted on the Jews!! And everyone else he came in contact with. You have your Charles Mansons and Jeffrey Damhers of the world who have to answer for what they CHOSE to do.

[AGTSP]

"All men are forced to act helplessly according to the impulse born of the 3 modes of material nature, therefor no-one can refrain from doing something not even for a minute."

Mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, mode of passion to the fruits of actions and mode of ignorance towards madness.

 

bhakta mark

[livingentity]

My understanding is that these bodies come into this world with a mixture of rajas and tamas and must develop into sattva. There are the rare beings that are born sattva-guna.