shiva - vishnu

[Guest guest]

What do Hare krishna people believe of vishnu and shiva. I believe they are one. Please tell me.

[gHari]

<center><img src=http://home.primus.ca/~caitanya/shiva.jpg></center>

 

This quote from The Nectar of Devotion by Srila Rupa Goswami as presented by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami shows how Siva possesses many qualities of Visnu. Gaudiyas (Hare Krsna) believe that Visnu and Krsna are Visnu-tattva (Godhead) while Lord Siva and Lord Brahma as demigods are Jiva-tattva (innumerable living entities, servants of God). Lord Siva is considered the greatest devotee of Visnu.<blockquote>SrIla RUpa GosvAmI, after consulting various scriptures, has enumerated the transcendental qualities of the Lord as follows: (1) beautiful features of the entire body; (2) marked with all auspicious characteristics; (3) extremely pleasing; (4) effulgent; (5) strong; (6) ever youthful; (7) wonderful linguist; (8) truthful; (9) talks pleasingly; (10) fluent; (11) highly learned; (12) highly intelligent; (13) a genius; (14) artistic; (15) extremely clever; (16) expert; (17) grateful; (18) firmly determined; (19) an expert judge of time and circumstances; (20) sees and speaks on the authority of Vedas, or scriptures; (21) pure; (22) self-controlled; (23) steadfast; (24) forbearing; (25) forgiving; (26) grave; (27) self-satisfied; (28) possessing equilibrium; (29) magnanimous; (30) religious; (31) heroic; (32) compassionate; (33) respectful; (34) gentle; (35) liberal; (36) shy; (37) the protector of surrendered souls; (38) happy; (39) the well-wisher of devotees; (40) controlled by love; (41) all-auspicious; (42) most powerful; (43) all-famous; (44) popular; (45) partial to devotees; (46) very attractive to all women; (47) all-worshipable; (48) all-opulent; (49) all-honorable; (50) the supreme controller. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has all these fifty transcendental qualities in fullness as deep as the ocean. In other words, the extent of His qualities is inconceivable.

 

As parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the individual living entities can also possess all of these qualities in minute quantities, provided they become pure devotees of the Lord. In other words, all of the above transcendental qualities can be present in the devotees in minute quantity, whereas the qualities in fullness are always present in the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Besides these, there are other transcendental qualities which are described by Lord Siva to PArvatI in the Padma PurANa, and in the First Canto of SrImad-BhAgavatam in connection with a conversation between the deity of the earth and the King of religion, YamarAja. It is said therein, "Persons Who who are desirous of becoming great personalities must be decorated with the following qualities: truthfulness, cleanliness, mercy, perseverance, renunciation, peacefulness, simplicity, control of the senses, equilibrium of the mind, austerity, equality, forbearance, placidity, learning, knowledge, detachment, opulence, chivalry, influence, strength, memory, independence, tactfulness, luster, patience, kind-heartedness, ingenuity, gentility, mannerliness, determination, perfection in all knowledge, proper execution, possession of all objects of enjoyment, gravity, steadiness, faithfulness, fame, respectfulness and lack of false egotism." Persons who are desiring to become great souls cannot be without any of the above qualities, so we can know for certain that these qualities are found in Lord KRSNa, the supreme soul.

 

Besides all of the above-mentioned fifty qualities, Lord KRSNa possesses five more, which are sometimes partially manifested in the persons of Lord BrahmA or Lord Siva. These transcendental qualities are as follows: (51) changeless; (52) all-cognizant; (53) ever fresh; (54) sac-cid-Ananda (possessing an eternal blissful body); (55) possessing all mystic perfections.

 

KRSNa also possesses five other qualities, which are manifest in the body of NArAyaNa, and they are listed as follows. (56) He has inconceivable potency. (57) Uncountable universes generate from His body. (58) He is the original source of all incarnations. (59) He is the giver of salvation to the enemies whom He kills. (60) He is the attractor of liberated souls. All these transcendental qualities are manifest wonderfully in the personal feature of Lord KRSNa.

 

Besides these sixty transcendental qualities, KRSNa has four more, which are not manifest even in the NArAyaNa form of Godhead, what to speak of the demigods or living entities. They are as follows. (61) He is the performer of wonderful varieties of pastimes (especially His childhood pastimes). (62) He is surrounded by devotees endowed with wonderful love of Godhead. (63) He can attract all living entities all over the universes by playing on His flute. (64) He has a wonderful excellence of beauty which cannot be rivaled anywhere in the creation.

 

Adding to the list these four exceptional qualities of KRSNa, it is to be understood that the aggregate number of qualities of KRSNa is sixty-four. SrIla RUpa GosvAmI has attempted to give evidences from various scriptures about all sixty-four qualities present in the person of the Supreme Lord.

</blockquote>

[Guest guest]

yes, but their function are different,

their personalities are different.

 

shiva is easy to please, and can get angry easily also.

 

jai sri prabhupada!

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In tattva (philosophical principle) they are same (bhagavan or shaktiman tattva), but in rasa (relishable loving relations) they are different personalities,

They have different types of bodies made of different types of spiritual emotions, different abodes and assocites, all made of different spiritual emotions.

 

In Brihad Bhagavatamrita Ch.2.26 Divya,

 

as Narada Muni was praising the devotion of Indra, the last one said:

Have you forgotten the words of scripture: "The one Supreme Lord has expanded into the three forms of Visnu, Brahma and Siva?"

 

In Brihad Bhagavatamrita Part2 Bhajana Ch.3.61-64 ,

 

Understanding my heart, Lord Siva gave a meaningful glance to Nandi. Nandi then explained to me the pure truth, which was at once manifested before me.

. Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the fact the Lord Krsna and Lord Siva are not different was the truth manifested to Gopa-kumara.

The truth was that Lord Siva, who increases one's love for Lord Krsna, is not different from Lord Madana-Gopala, my Lord, who is more dear to me than life.

I happily joined their company and all of Lord Siva's associates treated me well. From Sri Nandi heard of Lord Siva's extraordinary glories.

Always in the same form, Lord Siva stays in his own abode eternally., There he is always seen by his devotees, who have faith in him alone, and who are pleased to stay in his abode.

 

In Brihad Bhagavatamrita Part2 Bhajana Ch.3.65-66,

 

He is always filled with devotion for Lord Krsna, who is not different from him. With singing, dancing, and other pastimes he delights his associates.

Although he is the Lord of the universes, Lord Siva always worships thousand-headed Lord Sesa with great love, as if he were His servant.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.17.16.

 

In Brihad Bhagavatamrita Part2 Bhajana Ch.3.67-97,

 

Even though I became very happy to hear of the supreme glories of Sivaloka, still I noticed that my heart felt empty.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that Gopa-kumara still yearned to see the lotus feet of Lord Madana-Gopala.

Thinking about the reason for this, by the power of my service to the mantra my guru gave, I suddenly understood.

The absence of the pastimes and glories of Lord Madana-Gopala's lotus feet gave me pain.

Then I told my mind that because he is the same as Lord Madana-Gopala, Lord Siva himself has performed these wonderful pastimes, although in a different form.

Seeing it was still unhappy, I said to my mind: Although you have not yet seen in Lord Siva the sweetness of Lord Madana-Gopala's form and other glories, still, your long-cherished desire to see them will certainly be fulfilled by Lord Siva's mercy.

My mind somehow became satisfied. Then Lord Siva became tired and stopped, and for a moment I stayed happily by his side.

Then, O lord, from far away came the very sweet sound of some great souls singing.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the word "lord" here refers to the Mathura brahmana, who is very fortunate because he is a devotee of Lord Madana-Gopala.

Hearing this, Lord Siva became plunged in an ocean of bliss and, overcome with ecstatic love, began to dance.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that he manifested the symptoms of ecstasy, such as perspiring, speaking with a choked voice, trembling, his bodily hairs standing up, and his eyes shedding tears.

The goddess, best of chaste ladies, along with Nandi and the others, encouraged the Lord by singing and playing musical instruments.

Then I saw suddenly come many handsome four-armed men, who were filled with the glories of youth, handsomeness,, and sweetness

the splendour of whose limbs decorated their ornaments and put Lord Siva's followers in the shade, who were plunged in the nectar of the bliss of the great glories of their Lord

who were beyond description, whose clothing and ornaments charmed the heart, and who were accompanied by the four sages headed by Sanaka that we had seen before.

The sight of them created a bliss that tugged at my heart. I did not know anything within or without more dear than the sight of them.

After a moment I composed myself. My heart filled with awe and shyness, I could not beg to serve them.

The desire to serve them overwhelmed weak me. By Lord Siva's mercy would they speak even once to me?

From whence had they come? Who were they? I prayed they would mercifully glance at me. Tightly embracing them, Lord Siva fainted in the ecstasy of love.

Encouraged by Goddess Uma, who faithfully followed Lord Siva's heart, and who could understand my thoughts, Ganesa softly spoke.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that Ganesa spoke softly because he was to say something very confidential, and it was not right for Lord Siva's followers hear it.

Sri Ganesa said: They are the personal associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. They have forms like His. They have come from Vaikuntha.

Look, some of them are going to a four-headed Brahma's universe. Others, far way, are quickly going to an eight-headed Brahma's universe, which is twice the size. Still others are going to a sixteen-headed Brahma's universe, which is twice the size again.

Ganesa then showed me these many associates, who were decorated with appropriate ornaments, who charmed the eyes and heart, and who in their pastimes were entering the millions and millions of universes of millions and millions of great, lotus-faced Brahmas.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that these associates of the Lord are described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.14.11, 10.87.41 and 6.16.37.

(Ganesa said:) From all fears they protect devotees who, somehow even once get the slight reflection of the Lord's holy name on their tongue or the pathway to their ear. Fond only of devotional service, by their own wish they wander everywhere preaching of glorious devotional service.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami says these two verses explain why the liberated devotees of Vaikuntha come to the material universes.

These four, who are incarnations of the Lord in the forms of devotees, who are the best of celibate sages, and who appear to be the Lord's associates, wander about for the welfare of the worlds. They reside in Tapoloka, bringing auspiciousness to the sages who stay there bereft of Lord Narayana's company, feeling lost and without a master.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that the four sages here are the four Kumara's, headed by Sanaka, who are devotee-incarnations of the Lord of Vaikuntha. they bring auspiciousness to the residents of Tapoloka by glorifying the Supreme Lord's pastimes.

Having recently gone to Vaikuntha and seen the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is full of all attractive transcendental qualities, having drowned there in a flood of limitless bliss that mocks the happiness of impersonal liberation and in the company of devotees having drunk there the sweet nectar of devotional service to Lord Hari, they (the four Kumaras) have now come here.

How will I be able to describe Vaikunthaloka, which is filled with the limitless ultimate of all happiness and opulence, which is decorated with the pastimes of the lotus feet of Lord Narayana, the husband of the goddess of fortune, which the devotees full of love find easy to attain, and which they whose hearts are wounded by the desire for impersonal liberation and filled with the sinful desire to become one with the Lord, find very difficult to attain?

 

 

[Guest guest]

I am very happy to see that there are also gaudiya texts that claim shiva and vishnu are one.

[Guest guest]

In Brihad Bhagavatamrita Part2 Bhajana Ch.3. 99-107,

 

Sri Gopa-kumara said: O brahmana, filled with a great yearning to attain that place, I danced on the waves of a shoreless ocean of anxiety.

Thinking I would not be able to go there, I cried and by the power of my grief, I fainted from moment to moment.

Then Lord Siva, who is very merciful and very dear to the Vaisnavas , and who cannot bear to see others suffer, picked me up, comforted me, and spoke to me.

Lord Siva said: O Vaisnava, Parvati and I yearn to stay always in Vaikunthaloka, just as you do.

That realm is very difficult to attain. The liberated souls pray for it. Lord Brahma, his sons, and I myself strive for it.

A person who has great faith in the pure and desireless performance of one's own varnasrama duties attains the mercy of Lord Hari. If that mercy is multiplied a hundred times, one attains the post of Brahma. If that mercy is again multiplied a hundred times, one attains my post. If the mercy I receive from the Lord is multiplied a hundred times, one attains Vaikuntha.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami explains that this is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.24.29. It is also described in Itihasa-samuccaya in these words:

"Saintly persons free of false-ego, material possessiveness, and material duality, who devotedly engage in the yoga of meditation, and who know that the pure, eternal, splendid Supreme Brahma effulgence is beyond the realm of the demigod Brahma, go to that effulgence."

"They who worship Lord Hari, who is known as Visnu, Krsna, Jisnu, Sanatana, Narayana, Aja, Visvaksena, and Caturbhuja, and who meditate on Him, the transcendental divine Person, and who remember Him, the infallible Lord, attain His eternal abode. That is the conclusion of the eternal Sruti-sastra."

107. You are a Govardhana-gopa's son, a devotee of Lord Mathuresa, and a disciple of a brahmana attached to the Lord's service. You devotedly chant a mantra glorifying the Lord and You love the Lord. You should go to Vaikuntha.

 

 

Brahma and Siva are considered as demigods, because these positions in the governing of the universal material affairs can be occupied by jivas.

Still Siva is a form of Bhagavan which eternally exist in Shiva dhama of the spiritual world, whereas Brahma is not.

Very rarely during the manifestation of the material worlds, there is a jiva who can occupy the position of Siva, whereas rarely Sri Visnu takes the position of Brhama.

 

[Guest guest]

In replay to:

 

I am very happy to see that there are also gaudiya texts that claim shiva and vishnu are one. [i/]

 

Yes They are one (in tattva)and

They are different (in rasa- degree of exchanging spiritual ecstasy, with their associates).

 

For the material understanding should be inconceivable.

 

The different lokas (abodes) of the spiritual world,

are lokas of predominating rasas.

 

And Gopa Kumar was still unhappy in Siva loka, because by his nitya dharma (eternal nature) he possessed another degree of exchangig spiritual ecstasy as the residents of Siva loka.

[Guest guest]

there are two types of shiva,one is a jiva elevated

to that position,the other Sada Shiva is an expansion

of Mahavisnu,like Advaita Acharya and is visnu tattva, or non different

from Krishna.

 

this is mentioned in the Brhad Bhagavatamrtam

 

when shastra describes shiva as being a demi god, that is the jiva shiva, in fact all pure devotees are considered to be demigods or shiva.

 

the descriptions of shiva tattva are that shiva possesses

5 more qualities then the ordinary jiva, but still is a jiva, just one who has been elevated by performance of devotional service.

 

the descriptions of shiva are many, some refer to Visnu tattva Shiva, some to shiva tattva(jiva) Shiva,

it is complex and not understandable by the

mundane or empirical study, only by devotional service

are these truths revealed to the devotee.

[Guest guest]

Shree vacra tund maha kaya koti surya samah prabha

nirvighnam kurume deva subh karya sah sarvada

 

Shiva-Vishnu

 

Part of the same coin. There is enough evidence in shastra to back up the opinion off both the camp. One must guard against committing apradh against either for neither will be pleased so says shastra and sadhu.

Krishna declares in Bhagvat Gita ch.10 I am the beginning the middle and the end. I am Vishnu; I am Shankra why do I need any more proof?

 

 

Ganga jata dhari Gauri Shankar girija manna ramana

Jai mritayam jai Mahadev Maheshvara mangal subha charnam.

 

Hey deve hey dayit hey jagat ke bandho

Hey Krishna hey chpal hey karunake sindho

Hey nath hey raman hey nayanabhi ram

Ha ha kada nu bhavitasi pado drisho me.

 

.

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

the understanding of shiva is very complex, and this by bhaktisidsdhanta is ver enlightening,this is from his commentary on the Brahma samhita;

 

 

 

(The real nature of Sambhu, the presiding deity of Mahesa-dhama, is described.) Sambhu is not a second Godhead other than Krsna. Those, who entertain such discriminating sentiment, commit a great offense against the Supreme Lord. The supremacy of Sambhu is subservient to that of Govinda; hence they are not really different from each other. The nondistinction is established by the fact that just as milk treated with acid turns into curd so Godhead becomes a subservient when He Himself attains a distinct personality by the addition of a particular element of adulteration. This personality has no independent initiative.

-------------------------

The sail adulterating principle is constituted of a combination of the stupefying quality of the deluding energy, the quality of nonplenitude of the marginal potency and a slight degree of the ecstatic-cum-cognitive principle of the plenary spiritual potency.

-----------------------------

This specifically adulterated reflection of the principle of the subjective portion of the Divinity is Sadasiva, in the form of the effulgent masculine-symbol-god Sambhu from whom Rudradeva is manifested. In the work of mundane creation as the material cause, in the work of preservation by the destruction of sundry asuras and in the work of destruction to conduct the whole operation, Govinda manifests Himself as guna-avatara in the form of Sambhu who is the separated portion of Govinda imbued with the principle of His subjective plenary portion. The personality of the destructive principle in the form of time has been identified with what of Sambhu by scriptural evidences that have been adduced in the commentary. The purport of the Bhagavata slokas, viz., vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh, etc., is that Sambhu, in pursuance of the will of Govinda, works in union with his consort Durga-devi by his own time energy. He teaches pious duties (dharma) as stepping-stones to the attainment of spiritual service in the various tantra- sastras, etc., suitable for jivas in different grades of the conditional existence. In obedience to the will of Govinda, Sambhu maintains and fosters the religion of pure devotion by preaching the cult of illusionist (Mayavada) and the speculative agama-sastras. The fifty attributes of individual souls are manifest in a far vaster measure in Sambhu and five additional attributes not attainable by jivas are also partly found in him. So Sambhu cannot be called a jiva. He is the lord of jiva but yet partakes of the nature of a separate portion of Govinda.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

 

the part i put into a seperate from above is interesting,

what it says essentially is what a jiva is.

 

we are adulterad aspects of the divinty as he states;

 

1- we are adulterad by the stupefying quality of the

material energy, in other words we are subject to

Maya,we are subject to being deluded.

 

2-adulterad as having the non plenitude of the marginal

energy, or in other words we cannot act as visnu and exist in many places at the same time or cause our selves to have expansions that are non different, we are individual

aspects of divinity ,single aspects of an entity that can have a plenitude of self same wholly conscious

expansions, and expansions that are not like that,

the jiva and shiva.

 

3-we are adulterad as having a slight degree of the ecstatic -cum-cognitive principle(.-cit-ananda)

of the plenary spiritual potency, or we are different

then visnu as visnu has full aspect of .-cit-ananda

and IS the plenary spiritual potency, whereas we

partake of it.

 

so this is what he is saying, ultimately shiva is the masculine-symbol-god,and partakes of the nature of a separate portion of Govinda.

 

so in a sense he is not visnu, and has no independence from visnu, has the same limitations of a jiva, but is non different then visnu in that he partakes the nature of

a separate portion of govinda, which means he is like another govinda, different then govinda in that shiva

is a separate govinda,with the nature of govinda.

 

this is all very high tattva, and is self evident through

devotional service.

[Guest guest]

 

 

i probably have confused you.

 

i stated that there are two shiva's,one a demigod/vaisnava,

and the other visnu tattva, wholly god.

 

then i show where Bhaktisiddhnata states that Shiva is

not visnu tattva, only a demigod/devotee.

 

this needs clarification.

 

To those who worship Shiva as God,giving their prayers,

devotion, sacrifice and service to God as Shiva,

god accepts that, they are worshipping God in ignorance

and shiva is the lord of tamo guna.

 

Still God accepts their prayer and service ,etc.

to them Shiva is visnu tattva, non different then visnu,

even though in vaisnava siddhanta shiva is not god.

 

just like Christians who worship Jesus as God, even though

in Vaisnava Siddhanta Jesus is not god, still God accepts

the worship,prayer, and sacrifice of those who try and please Jesus as God, in this way Jesus is like Shiva,also.

 

in Vaisnava siddhanta, Shiva is Mahadeva, the topmost demigod, the greatest Vaisnava, and the most confidential servant of Krishna.

 

As Bhaktisiddhanta states above "Govinda manifests himself

as Guna Avatar as Sambhu,who is the seperated form of Govinda imbued with the PRINCIPLE of His subjective plenary portion...Sambhu in pursuance of the will of Govinda, works

in union with His consort Durga-Devi(identical to Radha)by His own time energy.

 

also he says;

 

"The sail adulterating principle is constituted of a combination of the stupefying quality of the deluding energy, the quality of nonplenitude of the marginal potency and a slight degree of the ecstatic-cum-cognitive principle of the plenary spiritual potency."

 

which means that Shiva si really the same as a jiva,not another godhead, but he cannot be called a jiva,

BUT does partake of the nature of a separate portion

of Govinda, just like a jiva, shiva is an adulterad

from of the divinity, subject to illusion, not omnipresent, and not independent ,and unlike

Visnu who is the resorviour of Ananda,or bliss,

and is the cognitave agent or source of cognition,

shiva partakes ,like a jiva, of a portion of Visnu's

potency.

 

i hope this clears things up,feel free to ask .

 

[Guest guest]

You all need some time. If everything goes right you will conclude shiva is vishnu, vishnu is shiva and there is no differents at all.

[Guest guest]

 

this is by A.C.Bhaktivedanta

 

naitat samacarej jatu manasapi hy-anisvarah

vinasyaty-acaran maudhyad yatharudro 'bdhi-jam visam

 

 

"One who is not a great controller should never imitate the behavior of ruling personalities, even mentally. If out of foolishness an ordinary person does imitate such behavior, he will simply destroy himself, just as a person who is not Rudra would destroy himself if he tried to drink an ocean of poison."

 

The purport of this is that one who is not an isvara truly qualified by being endowed with divine potency should never even mentally contemplate, perform or imitate the Lord's rasa-lila. Only Lord Siva himself is able to drink an entire ocean of poison. If an unqualified person who is arudra (not Siva) falsely considers himself to be greatly qualified and tries to drink poison in the form of hearing and chanting about the rasa-lila, then he would certainly die — that is, he would become tightly bound within the death-like condition of samsara or gross material existence.

 

 

 

ksiram yatha hi tatah prthag asti hetoh

yah sambhutamdadhi vikara-visesa-yogat

sanjayate na api tatha samupaiti karyad

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

 

 

Just as milk is transformed into curd by the action of acids, but yet the effect curd is neither same as, nor different from, its cause, viz., milk, so I adore the primeval Lord Govinda of whom the state of Sambhu is a transformation for the performance of the work of destruction.

 

[Guest guest]

not accoeding to vaisnava siddhanta, read above by Bhaktisiddhanta,also in Brht Bhagavatamrtam , the jiva

is said to be elevated to the position of jiva.

[Guest guest]

Time wil learn you

[Guest guest]

In the Gopla-tapani Upanisad (1.31-33) it is said:

 

"by worshiping Lord Krishna, Siva became free from illusion, and by chanting this mantra in a solitary place, he attained the Lord. He attained the Lord's transcendental abode, which is like a sun in the sky, the Lord's abode on which the demigods gaze."

 

 

In the Gopala-tapani Upanisad (1.35-38) it is also said:

 

" One shoud chant this (Krishna) mantra, of which from the first word the element earth came, from the decond word water, from the third fire, from the fourth air, and from the fifth ether. By chanting this mantra Lord Siva entered Lord Visnu's eternal spiritual abode.

 

In the Skanda Purana it is said:

 

"Lord Siva, who carries on his head the Ganga, which flows from Lord Visnu's feet, well knows the glory of the water that has washed Lord Visnu's feet. That is why sin can never touch him.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.5.33

 

dhyeyam- sada paribhavaghnam abhista-doham

tirthaspadam siva-virinci-nutam saranyam

bhrityarti-ham pranata-pala bhavabdhi-potam

vande maha-purusa te caranaravindam

 

"We offer our respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of Him, the Lord, upon whom we should always meditate. He destroys insults to His devotees. He removes the distresses of His devotees and satisfies their desires. He, the abode of all holy places and the shelter of all sages, is worshipable by Lord Siva and Lord Brahma. He is the boat of the demigods for crossing the ocean of birth and death.

 

 

 

BY VRINDA

 

USA, Mar 5 (VNN) — Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Jayatah!

 

 

Sri Gopisvara-Siva -pranam

 

vrndavanavani-pate! jaya soma! soma-maule

sanaka-sanandana-sanatana-naradedya

gopisvara! vraja-vilasi-yuganghri-padme

prema prayaccha nirupadhi namo namaste

 

O gatekeeper of Vrndavana! O Soma, all glories to you!

O you whose forehead is decorated with the moon,

and who is worshipable by the sages headed by

Sanaka, Sanandana, and Narada! O Gopisvara!

Desiring that you bestow upon me prema

for the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha-Madhava

who performs joyous pastimes in Vraja-dhama,

I offer pranama unto you

time and again.

 

this is from Narayana Maharaja

 

Sankara-tattva is very complicated. Brahma-tattva is not so complicated; he is always jiva-tattva. And sometimes, when there is no qualified jiva, Visnu himself comes as Brahma. But Sankara is not like this. He is never jiva-tattva. Acintyabhedabeda. Where does he live? Beyond Brahmaloka. After passing through the eight kinds of material coverings, after crossing the Viraja, Muktidhama, Mahakalapuram, and then Brahmaloka, there is the loka or planet of Sankara. There he is known as Sadasiva, and he is Visnu-tattva. For any reason, if something sour is put into milk, it becomes yogurt. Yogurt is nothing but milk. It has all the potencies that are in milk, like ghee and so forth, but it is not milk. Milk can become yogurt, but yogurt cannot become milk. Sankara is like that. He is not an ordinary jiva. Sometimes, but very rarely, there may be a reason that Sadasiva cannot come to this world - if he is engaged in his pralaya, destruction of the universe, or anything like that. In that case any qualified jiva can work as Siva; temporarily, but not permanently. So you should always try to honor Sankara.

 

I can tell some pastimes of Sankara from Srimad Bhagavatam and Skanda Purana. When Rama was making the bridge to go to Sri Lanka with his hundreds of thousands of soldiers, He established a Siva-linga of Ramesvara. When it was established, all the male human beings were glorifying Sankara, shouting, "Ramesvara Ki Jayaho! Ramesvara Ki Jaya! They were calling Ramesvara, Rama Isvara. "You are isvara; you are the God of Rama." Thus they used the name Ramesvara. The Demigods were not happy or satisfied by this. They said, "Ramas ca asau isvarah". Rama is God, and Sankara is also God. Both of Them are the same. Hearing this, the Sankara-sila broke. Sankara came out from it and told them, "You are all foolish; you do not know my tattva. Rama is my God, and that is why I am called Ramesvara."

 

Common people generally don't know anything, and so they thought that Ramesvara meant that Sankara is the God of Rama, and that Rama is controlled by Sankara. The demigods were of the opinion that Rama and Sankara are the same, and both are God. But Siva, Sankara himself, told them, "I am not the God of Rama. Rama is my beloved and my God." Sankara is called Ramesvara because of this. He himself told this.

 

We see in Srimad Bhagavatam that once Sankara went to the council of Prajapati Daksa, and everyone there was honoring Daksa. Daksa Prajapati had given his daughter in marriage to Sankara, so he thought that Lord Siva was like his son. He offered pranamas to Brahma because he was his father, but not to Sankara. All were honoring Daksa except Sankara, who was only sitting and chanting, "Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama Hare Hare." Daksa Prajapati felt insulted, cursed Lord Siva, and so many incidences took place after that. Sankara returned to Kailasa. From that time on Daksa thought Sankara his enemy, but Sankara never thought like this.

 

One day, in Treta-yuga, Sati and Sankara came to Dandakaranya Forest. At that time Rama had been living in the forest for 14 years with Sita and Laksmana, to obey the order of his father, King Dasaratha. Now Ravana had stolen away Sita and taken her to Lanka. Rama was now weeping so much, and Laksmana was trying pacify Him. The more Laksmana tried to pacify Him, however, the more He wept. He was asking the trees of Pancavati, "O Pancavati! Have you seen Sita? Where has She gone? O deer, have you seen Sita?" And He was crying - bitterly weeping - asking the Godavari River, "O Godavari, have you seen My dear Sita? Where has She gone? Why has She left me?" Rama became mad in separation.

 

Sankara came with Sati to the Dandakaranya Forest to see Rama's divine pastimes and to take darsana of Him. Sankara was very moved and his heart was melting, He offered sasthang-pranama (full obeisances, with all the eight limbs of the body touching the ground) to Rama, and glorified Him, saying, "O, these pastimes are so beautiful and marvelous that anyone's heart will melt to see them." He then did parikrama from very far, far away, weeping, "O these pastimes are so beautiful". When he did his final pranama and was ready to go back to Kailasa, Sati asked, "My beloved, to whom are you doing pranama?" Sankara told Sati, "Rama is my isthadeva. He is my worshipful deity. I always worship Him." She told her husband, "Why? I see that Rama is like an ordinary man weeping for His wife. Even I know where Sita is, and He does not know and He is weeping? He is not strong enough to bring Sita back? He is very weak; so He must be a man, not God. Why are you doing pranama to Him? Who is He?" Sankara told Sati, "You are ignorant; you do not know that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." She had no belief or trust. Sankara then told Sati to test Him somehow.

 

Sankara went from there and he rested under a banyan tree. Sati changed her shape to look like Sita, went to the place where Rama was searching for Sita, and came in front of Rama. Rama was weeping, "Oh Sita, where are you, where are you?" Sati thought, "If I appear before Rama as Sita, then He will look at me and He will at once come and embrace me, saying "Oh, I have received my Sita." And He will be happy." But Rama was ignoring Sati. Again and again she came in front of Him, yet He was looking away. Then He told her, "Mother, why are you roaming here alone? Where is Sankara?" Sati wondered how Rama knew who she really was. Now she was afraid and did pranama to Rama. Then she saw that all the trees, all the creepers, and everything else became Rama and Sita. Wherever she looked, here and there, and everywhere, she only saw Sita Rama, Sita Rama, Sita Rama. Rama showed Sati that, "Sita is never separated from Me, She is always with Me. I am doing this pastime for all human beings, so they will remember My lila." Sati said, "Sankara can never be ignorant. He was right and I was wrong." After Sati did pranama, and stood up, she saw that now Rama was there alone with Laksmana, and He was still weeping. "Oh Sita, where you are, where you are?"

 

Sati then went back to the place where Sankara was waiting under the banyan tree, and he asked her, "Have you tested Him to see who He is?" Sati replied, "Prabhu, what can I do? I believed you and I didn't test Him." Again she told a lie. You should always have faith in your Guru. Sankara was the Guru of Sati, but she did not believe him when he had told her that Rama is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If a disciple does not obey his Gurudeva, what will happen? His bhakti and spiritual life will go down. Don't tell any falsehoods to your Gurudeva. Never, never. Otherwise you again go to hell. She lied to Sankara, saying "I have not tested Him." But Sankara saw in his trance that she had tested Him, and he saw how she had become Sita. He thought, "She has taken the shape of Sita, who is my mother. She is therefore not my wife; now she is my mother. Now I will always treat her as my mother." When he made this vow, the demigods at once showered flowers from heaven, and they praised him, "You have made such a marvelous promise." Sati asked her husband, "What promise have you made?" But he was silent and never said anything.

 

When they returned to their cottage in Kailasa, Sankara gave Sati a seat in front of him. The wife can sit on the left side of her husband, and the mother always sits in front, as a guru. In the same way, a disciple should not offer pranama to his Gurudeva while keeping his left side to him. The disciple should always sit at the front of his Gurudeva, and ask some very good questions with honor. If the disciple does not do this, he is not a disciple. He should ask some questions - not always being silent. He should serve and inquire from the guru. "Tad vidhi pranipatena pariprasna." Questions should be there - not with a challenging mood, but to know something. So Sankara gave Sati a seat in front.

 

Sati thought, "Sankara has left me. He is treating me like his mother because I took the shape of Sita. In this body he will not accept me as his wife, so I'll have to give up this body." After some time, Sankara went into a trance for hundreds and thousands of years. Sati was feeling so much separation and was very unhappy. She was ready to give up her body.

 

One day, after Sankara had returned to outer consciousness, Sati saw that so many goddesses were going to the palace of her father, Daksa, because a very good sacrifice was taking place there. Daksa's daughters were also going there, and he had invited everyone except for Sankara. Sati also wanted to go, but she asked Sankara first. He replied, "A woman can go without an invitation to see her Gurudeva, or her father and mother; but if a father thinks that her husband is his enemy, then the wife should not go to see him. You know that your father thinks I am his enemy, although I never think like this. At the same time I cannot order you to not go there. You must decide." Sati left that place and went to her father's house, and there she saw that Daksa Prajapati was dishonoring Sankara. At once she became furious and left her body by burning to ashes, with the help of a fire that came from her heart. Here we see that Sankara's isthadeva is Rama, and because Sati took the shape of Sitadevi, he left her. So he is a chaste Vaisnava, and he is always serving.

 

 

As Nandisvara, Sankara has become the mountain of Nandagaon. He wanted that all of Krishna's pastimes be performed on his back. Regarding Brahma, he has become Brahma-parvata in Varsana. Because he is so near to Radhika, he is therefore our Gurudeva

 

So these are the tattvas. We should try to honor Sankara as a parama Vaisnava and as a guru. Don't dishonor him. We don't worship him separately, but we can observe Siva Caturdasi and glorify him in relation to his relationship with Krishna. We should offer pranama to him with prayers like:

 

vrindavanavani-pate! jaya soma soma maule

sanaka-sanandana-sanatana-naradedya

gopisvara! vraja-vilasi-yugangri-padme

prema prayaccha nirupadhi namo namaste

 

"O gatekeeper of Vrindavana! O Soma, all glories to you! O you whose forehead is decorated with the moon, and who is worshipable by the sages headed by Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana and Narada! O Gopisvara, desiring that you bestow upon me that prema for the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha-Madhava who perform joyous pastimes in Vraja-dhama, I offer pranamas unto you time and again."

 

Sankara is telling Sri Narada that Prahlada Maharaja is superior to him. Why? Because he is tricky. He does this only to give something to worldly persons. Actually, Prahlada cannot go to Vrindavana, but Sankara, as Gopisvara, resides there. As Hanuman, Sankara is always with Rama. As Bhima, he is with Krishna. When Hanuman and Bhima combine together in Kali-yuga, they become Madvacarya, our Sampradaya Guru.

Therefore Sankara serves in so many ways, and we should always honor him as our Guru. He is hundreds of thousands of times superior to Prahlada because he knows and meditates on asta-kaliya-lila. Parvati also meditates on asta-kaliya-lila. This very secret, but yet they both do it. Although Sankara is so much superior and more worshipful than Prahlada, still he says that Prahlada is superior. Why? There are some reasons which I will explain later.

-------------------------

ultimatly,Gopisvara means lord of the gopis,

and is shiva's position .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is described that shiva desired to enter into the rasa dance in vraja.

 

In order for him to gain entrance he was transformed into a gopi.

 

As all vraja rasa, this is symbolic of a confidential

inner truth.

 

the gopis are examples of the highest devotion to God.

they gave up everything, family,husbands,respectability,

in their intense desire to be with God,Krishna.

Although they are identical to Krishna.

 

so in that sense is Shiva given entrance into the rasa dance,the mood of giving up everything shown by the gopis,

was necessary for Him to be admitted,and was his entrance

way into that lila.

 

So He is known as Gopisvara, the lord of the gopis,

not gopisvari,feminine, but Gopisvara .

 

this is all very symbolic but understandable by the mercy of Sri Guru and Gauranga.

[Guest guest]

Although He has a form of a gopi, He never takes part in the rasa dance. In that form He is a protector and guardian of the dhama.

[Guest guest]

"this is all very symbolic but understandable by the mercy of Sri Guru and Gauranga"

 

I presume your guru is mercyfull with you, or are you a ritvik type of devotee, who have association only with the murti of the guru?

[Guest guest]

"We should try to honor Sankara as a parama Vaisnava and as a guru. Don't dishonor him. We don't worship him separately, but we can observe Siva Caturdasi and glorify him in relation to his relationship with Krishna. We should offer pranama to him with prayers"

 

Well said!!! even if in our hearts Lord Krishna is the supreme if we chant the name of His greatest devotee He will be pleased. I say well said because often in isckon a lot of respect is given to the great archaryas from Caitanya Mahaprabhu's time but little respect is given to Lord Shiva who is the greatest Vaisnava.

 

i am especially concerned that in iskcon one of the 10 offences is regarding the names of Shiva and Visnu. even if one does decide to glorify the name of Shiva this should not be considered as a grave offence.

 

Haribol

[Guest guest]

when trying to understand rasa tattva in Vraja, without

realizing the underlying tattva in the symbolic

representation you can only misunderstand what

is the real and inner truth.

 

the rasa dance is a very high subject, represented in the

description of a dance under the moon,it is describing another thing.

 

It is not refering to an actual dance, it refers to the dance of madhurya lila, the loving affairs between God and the individual soul on the highest level.

 

in that dance shiva is Gopisvara, the protector of Vraja,

and the lord of the gopis, all the gopis are identical

to Krishna, they are Krishna's womanly forms, each of them

feels that they are with Govinda,who shiva is imbued with the principle of Govinda's plenary portion,specifically as a masculine-symbol-god,Durga

who is identical to Krishna is His consort.

 

[Guest guest]

"this is all very symbolic but understandable by the mercy of Sri Guru and Gauranga"

 

I presume your guru is mercyfull with you, or are you a ritvik type of devotee, who have association only with the murti of the guru?

 

[Guest guest]

Do you have the list of the Gopis who danced with the Divine Couple?

[Guest guest]

"It is not refering to an actual dance, it refers to the dance of madhurya lila, the loving affairs between God and the individual soul on the highest level."

 

According to the ritvik shiva everything is symbolic,

becouse anyway Krsna is everything.

And all the writings are symbolic.

 

One little step more and he is an advaita vadi.

In fact he is an advaita vadi.

[Guest guest]

are you saying that you disgaree with the authorized acharyas ?

 

that rasa lila is not written in symbolic terms ?

 

do you know what an advaita vadi is ?

 

apparently not.

 

You might find your time better spent and productive by studying the words of the acharyas on this subject,

your mindless attacks are based on what ?

 

your superior vision then theirs ?

 

Or are you simply stating that I am misreading

their words, that when they say that rasa lila is described using symbolic writing and i repeat that ,

that I am concocting, giving advaita philosophy ?

 

or are you just venting ?