shiva - vishnu

[Guest guest]

are you saying that you disgaree with the authorized acharyas ?

that rasa lila is not written in symbolic terms ?

 

 

"this is all very symbolic but understandable by the mercy of Sri Guru and Gauranga"

 

I presume your guru is mercyfull with you, or are you a ritvik type of devotee, who have association only with the murti of the guru?

 

Explain mercifully the symbols.

Other bogis also explained the symbols of the Gita!

 

Read it as it is!

[Guest guest]

Shree vacra tund maha kaya koti surya samah prabha

nirvighnam kurume deva subh karya sah sarvada

 

Lord Shiva a jiva ?

No never most blasphemous statement I ever heard

Lord Krishna says I create I maintain and I destroy

I’m Vishnu I’m Shankar.He did not say I empower them he says these are my qualities.

Jiva take repeated birth and death. When did Lord Siva ever taken birth let alone dying? You have written in your posts Maa Durga is identical to Radha who is Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva is Durga pati. These relations are unfathomable.

 

People worship Lord Shiva in ignorance?

 

Are you saying Rama, 4 Kumaras, Devatas in trouble, Pandavas worshiped Lord Shiva in ignorance? I don’t think so, millions worships Lord Siva not out ignorance but because there are Shastras that say he is worshipable. Shree Vyasdev also wrote scriptures glorifying Lord Siva as supreme.

Lord Ram says anyone who disrespects Lord Shiva will not come to me [Tulsidas Go swami]

Vishnu puran 5.33.46

Whoever is Lord Hari he himself is Lord Shiva anyone mistake both the Lord to be different will surely go to hell.

Why would in Vishnu shastranam Lord Shiva’s name be mentioned if he were not the same?

 

.

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

these are not my concoctions.

these are the conclusions of shastra, i have posted

above, and of the gaudiya vaisnava gurus, you may have your opinion, they have theirs.

[Guest guest]

Shree vacra tund maha kaya koti surya samah prabha

nirvighnam kurume deva subh karya sah sarvada

 

 

RE

{these are not my concoctions.

these are the conclusions of shastra, i have posted

above, and of the gaudiya vaisnava gurus, you may have your opinion, they have theirs.}

 

My pranam to all Vaisnava.

 

 

My opinion counts for nothing.

 

The Lord is inconceivable, infinite. He reveals to those who seek him.

When Krishna says I am the creator, I am the maintainer and I am the destroyer or when he says I am Vishnu I am Shankar it is not my opinion it is Lord Shree Krishna’s in Bhagvat Gita.

Vishnu shastranam is not my word.

So let us not insult Lord Shiva for his very name is very auspicious.

 

.

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

 

like i said, if you worship shiva as god,then that is god,..in vaisnava siddhanta, shiva is not god.

 

if you take one part of scripture,and ignore the rest,

what is the point of accepting any of it ?

[Guest guest]

You should ask your last question to yourself, really. You even don't know what real vaishnava sidhaanta is.

[Guest guest]

oh, so that is your point,mindless rants

in order to demonize what

you don't like.

 

real classy.

[Guest guest]

Shree vacra tund maha kaya koti surya samah prabha

nirvighnam kurume deva subh karya sah sarvada

 

{like i said, if you worship shiva as god,then that is god,..in vaisnava siddhanta, shiva is not god.}

 

Sorry prabhu you come up with lots off contradiction.

First of all God is God not because you say so but because the Shastra say so.

 

{if you take one part of scripture,and ignore the rest,

what is the point of accepting any of it ?

 

exactly my sentiment.

 

Hari you have thousands of names.All of them are worshipable.

 

 

.

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

why cite shastra as authority if you do not accept what shastra says ?

 

i have posted numerous shastric quotes showing that

shiva is a Deva, is that insuffecient evidence for you ?

 

if anyone worships god with sincerity, god accepts that,

whether or not that person has knowledge of exactly

who or what god is, that is why Shiva is called the lord of tamo-guna, those who are in ignorance worship god

incorrectly understanding god, still god is mercifull

and accepts that devotion.

[Guest guest]

Shree vacra tund maha kaya koti surya samah prabha

nirvighnam kurume deva subh karya sah sarvada

 

So why can't you do the same?

why just pick and choose what you think is true?

Until now you were saying Sada Shiva was one with Krishna.

 

If Krishna says I an Vishnu I am Shankara. I creat maintain and destroy Why do you ignore that?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

Krishna also says he is

 

http://www.asitis.com/10/22.html

 

http://www.asitis.com/10/23.html

 

http://www.asitis.com/10/24.html

 

http://www.asitis.com/10/25.html

 

http://www.asitis.com/10/26.html

 

so why accept shiva as god, why not narada,or indra,

or kuvera,or brhaspati ?

 

[Guest guest]

 

Shree vacra tund maha kaya koti surya samah prabha

nirvighnam kurume deva subh karya sah sarvada

 

Lord Shree Krishna is clearly responding to Arjun's questions.

Check out what he is asking.

So why accept Vishnu and not Shiva.Does not Krishna creat,maintain and destroy.Are you denying Lord Shiva's name in Vishnu's shastra naam?

How can Durga pati not be God?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest guest]

 

Lord Shiva a jiva ?

No never most blasphemous statement I ever heard

 

 

 

 

In Brihad Bhagavatamrita Part2 Bhajana Ch.3. 99-107,

 

Sri Gopa-kumara said: O brahmana, filled with a great yearning to attain that place, I danced on the waves of a shoreless ocean of anxiety.

Thinking I would not be able to go there, I cried and by the power of my grief, I fainted from moment to moment.

Then Lord Siva, who is very merciful and very dear to the Vaisnavas , and who cannot bear to see others suffer, picked me up, comforted me, and spoke to me.

Lord Siva said: O Vaisnava, Parvati and I yearn to stay always in Vaikunthaloka, just as you do.

That realm is very difficult to attain. The liberated souls pray for it. Lord Brahma, his sons, and I myself strive for it.

A person who has great faith in the pure and desireless performance of one's own varnasrama duties attains the mercy of Lord Hari. If that mercy is multiplied a hundred times, one attains the post of Brahma. If that mercy is again multiplied a hundred times, one attains my post. If the mercy I receive from the Lord is multiplied a hundred times, one attains Vaikuntha.

 

In this creation, in our Univers, there was no jiva that could ocupy the post of Siva, but the post of Brahma is ocupied by a jiva.

 

In the material universal affairs Siva and Brahma are posts, that can be ocupied by jivas.

Only in this connection Siva and BrahmA are considered demigods.

Otherwise Lord Siva, who eternally dwels in His dhama in the spiritual world is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

See the first comment in this thread.

[gHari]

Perhaps this sums up the Gaudiya understanding as found in Srimad Bhagavatam 8.12.39:<blockquote><center>ko nu me 'titaren mAyAM

viSaktas tvad-Rte pumAn

tAMs tAn visRjatIM bhAvAn

dustarAm akRtAtmabhiH

</center>

kaH--what; nu--indeed; me--My; atitaret--can surpass; mAyAm--illusory energy; viSaktaH--attached to material sense enjoyment; tvat-Rte--except for you; pumAn--person; tAn--such conditions; tAn--unto the materially attached persons; visRjatIm--in surpassing; bhAvAn--reactions of material activities; dustarAm--very difficult to surmount; akRta-AtmabhiH--by persons unable to control their senses.

My dear Lord Sambhu, who within this material world but you can surpass My illusory energy? People are generally attached to sense enjoyment and conquered by its influence. Indeed, the influence of material nature is very difficult for them to surmount.

 

PURPORT

Of the three chief demigods--BrahmA, ViSNu and Mahezvara--all but ViSNu are under the influence of mAyA. In Caitanya-caritAmRta, they are described as mAyI, which means "under mAyA's influence." But even though Lord Siva associates with mAyA, he is not influenced. The living entities are affected by mAyA, but although Lord Siva apparently associates with mAyA, he is not affected. In other words, all living entities within this material world except for Lord Siva are swayed by mAyA. Lord Siva is therefore neither viSNu-tattva nor jIva-tattva. He is between the two.

 

 

From the purport to SB 1.3.5:

Lord ViSNu is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead. Lord Siva is in the marginal position between the Personality of Godhead and the living entities, or jIvas. BrahmA is always a jIva-tattva. The highest pious living being, or the greatest devotee of the Lord, is empowered with the potency of the Lord for creation, and he is called BrahmA. His power is like the power of the sun reflected in valuable stones and jewels. When there is no such living being to take charge of the post of BrahmA, the Lord Himself becomes a BrahmA and takes charge of the post.

Lord Siva is not an ordinary living being. He is the plenary portion of the Lord, but because Lord Siva is in direct touch with material nature, he is not exactly in the same transcendental position as Lord ViSNu. The difference is like that between milk and curd. Curd is nothing but milk, and yet it cannot be used in place of milk.

 

From SB 2.1.12 Purport:

Except for the Lord Himself, everyone is subordinate; no one is independent of the Lord. Since no one is more powerful than or equal to the energy of the Supreme Lord, no one's name can be as powerful as that of the Lord. By chanting the Lord's holy name, one can derive all the stipulated energy synchronized from all sources. Therefore, one should not equalize the supreme holy name of the Lord with any other name. BrahmA, Siva or any other powerful god can never be equal to the Supreme Lord ViSNu.

 

From SB 4.1.15 Purport:

ln the VedAnta-sUtra, the living entities of different gradations are compared to candles or lamps with different candle power. For example, some electric bulbs have the power of one thousand candles, some have the power of five hundred candles, some the power of one hundred candles, some fifty candles, etc., but all electric bulbs have light. Light is present in every bulb, but the gradations of light are different. Similarly, there are gradations of Brahman. The ViSNu svAMza expansions of the Supreme Lord in different ViSNu forms are like lamps, Lord Siva is also like a lamp, and the supreme candle power, or the one-hundred-percent light, is KRSNa. The viSNu-tattva has ninety-four percent, the ziva-tattva has eighty-four percent, Lord BrahmA has seventy-eight percent, and the living entities are also like BrahmA, but in the conditioned state their power is still more dim. There are gradations of Brahman, and no one can deny this fact. Therefore the words Atmeza-brahma-sambhavAn indicate that DattAtreya was directly part and parcel of ViSNu, whereas DurvAsA and Soma were parts and parcels of Lord Siva and Lord BrahmA.

 

From SB 4.7.52 Purport:

The entities have different bodies, but originally, in the beginning of creation, Lord ViSNu is alone. For the purpose of creation, BrahmA is manifested, and for annihilation there is Lord Siva. As far as the spiritual entrance into the material world is concerned, all beings are part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but under the covering of different material qualities they have different names. Lord BrahmA and Lord Siva are qualitative incarnations of ViSNu, as guNa-avatAras, and ViSNu with them accepts control of the quality of goodness; therefore He is also a qualitative incarnation like Lord Siva and Lord BrahmA. Actually the different names exist for different directions, otherwise the origin is one only.

 

From SB 6.4.35 Purport:

In regard to this verse, SrIla MadhvAcArya says:<center>svadeha-sthaM hariM prAhur

adhamA jIvam eva tu

madhyamAz cApy anirNItaM

jIvAd bhinnaM janArdanam

</center>

There are three classes of men--the lowest (adhama), those in the middle (madhyama), and the best (uttama). The lowest (adhama) think that there is no difference between God and the living entity except that the living entity is under designations whereas the Absolute Truth has no designations. In their opinion, as soon as the designations of the material body are dissolved, the jIva, the living entity, will mix with the Supreme. They give the argument of ghaTAkAza-paTAkAza, in which the body is compared to a pot with the sky within and the sky without. When the pot breaks, the sky inside becomes one with the sky outside, and so the impersonalists say that the living being becomes one with the Supreme. This is their argument, but SrIla MadhvAcArya says that such an argument is put forward by the lowest class of men. Another class of men cannot ascertain what the actual form of the Supreme is, but they agree that there is a Supreme who controls the activities of the ordinary living being. Such philosophers are accepted as mediocre. The best, however. are those who understand the Supreme Lord (sac-cid-Ananda-vigraha [bs. 5.1]). PUrNAnandAdi-guNakaM sarva jIva-vilakSaNam: His form is completely spiritual, full of bliss, and completely distinct from that of the conditioned soul or any other living entity. UttamAs tu hariM prAhus tAratamyena teSu ca: such philosophers are the best because they know that the Supreme Personality of Godhead reveals Himself differently to worshipers in various modes of material nature. They know that there are thirty-three million demigods just to convince the conditioned soul that there is a supreme power and to induce him to agree to worship one of these demigods so that by the association of devotees he may be able to understand that KRSNa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As Lord KRSNa says in Bhagavad-gItA, mattaH parataraM nAnyat kiJcid asti dhanaJjaya: [bg. 7.7] "There is no truth superior to Me." Aham Adir hi devAnAm: "I am the origin of all the demigods." AhaM sarvasya prabhavaH: "I am superior to everyone, even Lord BrahmA, Lord Siva and the other demigods." These are the conclusions of the zAstra, and one who accepts these conclusions should be considered a first-class philosopher. Such a philosopher knows that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Lord of the demigods (deva-devezvaraM sUtram AnandaM prANa-vedinaH).

 

From SB 11.17.27:<center>AcAryaM mAM vijAnIyAn

nAvanmanyeta karhicit

na martya-buddhyAsUyeta

sarva-deva-mayo guruH

</center>

AcAryam--the spiritual master; mAm--Myself; vijAnIyAt--one should know; na avamanyeta--one should never disrespect; karhicit--at any time; na--never; martya-buddhyA--with the idea of his being an ordinary man; asUyeta--one should be envious; sarva-deva--of all demigods; mayaH--representative; guruH--the spiritual master.

One should know the AcArya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods.

 

PURPORT

This verse appears in Caitanya-caritAmRta (Adi 1.46). His Divine Grace OM ViSNupAda ParamahaMsa ParivrAjakAcArya ASTottara-zata SrI SrImad A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupAda has commented on this verse as follows.<blockquote>"This is a verse from SrImad-BhAgavatam (11.17.27) spoken by Lord SrI KRSNa when He was questioned by Uddhava regarding the four social and spiritual orders of society. He was specifically instructing how a brahmacArI should behave under the care of a spiritual master. A spiritual master is not an enjoyer of facilities offered by his disciples. He is like a parent. Without the attentive service of his parents, a child cannot grow to manhood; similarly, without the care of the spiritual master one cannot rise to the plane of transcendental service.

 

"The spiritual master is also called AcArya, or a transcendental professor of spiritual science. Manu-saMhitA (2.140) explains the duties of an AcArya, describing that a bona fide spiritual master accepts charge of disciples, teaches them the Vedic knowledge with all its intricacies, and gives them their second birth. The ceremony performed to initiate a disciple into the study of spiritual science is called upanIti, or the function that brings one nearer to the spiritual master. One who cannot be brought nearer to a spiritual master cannot have a sacred thread, and thus he is indicated to be a zUdra. The sacred thread worn on the body of a brAhmaNa, kSatriya or vaizya is a symbol of initiation by the spiritual master; it is worth nothing if worn merely to boast of high parentage. The duty of the spiritual master is to initiate a disciple with the sacred thread ceremony, and after this saMskAra, or purificatory process, the spiritual master actually begins to teach the disciple about the Vedas. A person born a zUdra is not barred from such spiritual initiation, provided he is approved by the spiritual master, who is duly authorized to award a disciple the right to be a brAhmaNa if he finds him perfectly qualified. In the VAyu PurANa an AcArya is defined as one who knows the import of all Vedic literature, explains the purpose of the Vedas, abides by their rules and regulations and teaches his disciples to act in the same way.

 

"Only out of His immense compassion does the Personality of Godhead reveal Himself as the spiritual master. Therefore in the dealings of an AcArya there are no activities but those of transcendental loving service to the Lord. He is the Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead. It is worthwhile to take shelter of such a steady devotee, who is called Azraya-vigraha, or the manifestation or form of the Lord of whom one must take shelter.

 

"If one poses himself as an AcArya but does not have an attitude of servitorship to the Lord, he must be considered an offender, and this offensive attitude disqualifies him from being an AcArya. The bona fide spiritual master always engages in unalloyed devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By this test he is known to be a direct manifestation of the Lord and a genuine representative of SrI NityAnanda Prabhu. Such a spiritual master is known as AcAryadeva. Influenced by an envious temperament and dissatisfied because of an attitude of sense gratification, mundaners criticize a real AcArya. In fact, however, a bona fide AcArya is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead, and therefore to envy such an AcArya is to envy the Personality of Godhead Himself. This will produce an effect subversive to transcendental realization.

 

"As mentioned previously, a disciple should always respect the spiritual master as a manifestation of SrI KRSNa, but at the same time one should always remember that a spiritual master is never authorized to imitate the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. False spiritual masters pose themselves as identical with SrI KRSNa in every respect, to exploit the sentiments of their disciples, but such impersonalists can only mislead their disciples, for their ultimate aim is to become one with the Lord. This is against the principles of the devotional cult.

 

"The real Vedic philosophy is acintya-bhedAbheda-tattva, which establishes everything to be simultaneously one with and different from the Personality of Godhead. SrIla RaghunAtha dAsa GosvAmI confirms that this is the real position of a bona fide spiritual master and says that one should always think of the spiritual master in terms of his intimate relationship with Mukunda (SrI KRSNa). SrIla JIva GosvAmI, in his Bhakti-sandarbha (213), has clearly defined that a pure devotee's observation of the spiritual master and Lord Siva as one with the Personality of Godhead exists in terms of their being very dear to the Lord, not identical with Him in all respects. Following in the footsteps of SrIla RaghunAtha dAsa GosvAmI and SrIla JIva GosvAmI, later AcAryas like SrIla VizvanAtha CakravartI ThAkura have confirmed the same truths. In his prayers to the spiritual master, SrIla VizvanAtha CakravartI ThAkura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord. GauDIya VaiSNavas therefore worship SrIla Gurudeva (the spiritual master) in the light of his being the servitor of the Personality of Godhead. In all the ancient literatures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of SrIla Narottama dAsa ThAkura, SrIla Bhaktivinoda ThAkura and other unalloyed VaiSNavas, the spiritual master is always considered to be either one of the confidential associates of SrImatI RAdhArANI or a manifested representation of SrIla NityAnanda Prabhu."

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

[Guest guest]

Shree vacra tund maha kaya koti surya samah prabha

nirvighnam kurume deva subh karya sah sarvada.

 

Re.{In the material universal affairs Siva and Brahma are posts, that can be ocupied by jivas.}

 

Are you able to provide any evidence how any jiva became Lord Shiva or take up his position?

 

Lords Lila's are aparampar.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sri Vakrathunda mahaakaaya kotisuryasamaprabha

nirvighnam kurume deva subhakaryeshu sarvadaa

 

 

There is overwhelming evidence in Shastra of the oneness of the trinity. Without the three gunas of the Supreme Lord there is no meaning to life. Just as without the three primary colors there is no meaning to other colors.

God cannot be confined to any one realization. His personalities are many his qualities are ananta.

(Jo jisike maan bhave woh usika guna gave)

 

Arjun says Krishna only you can tell me the way it is in full.

Please tell me Kesu kesu bhavesu------- Should I worship you?

 

All the gunas are possessed by one supreme personality. They are not separated not even for a moment (Markandya puran chapter 43-verse 17/18/19)

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

I can understand this in concept. That there is only one God and all is within Him and He is everywhere. But I am still having a problem. There is just something about Shiva's stories and personality that I find so comforting and attractive. I seem to be able to relate to Him easier. Mabey this is because I find myself having many of the qualities that He has (desire to meditate, temper,ect...-by no means do I mean that I have God-like qualities). I know that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and it is better to go directly to that source. But why do I feel drawn otherwise? The whole point of my longing is for God as He is complete. I guess I am just searching for my true self beyond false ego and my true relationship with God.

[Guest guest]

What anger Him? What will please Him?

[Guest guest]

Has anyone seen the episodes of Brahma Vishnu Mahesh?

When Rama begins to lead his army to attack Lanka, he prays to bhagvan shankar. Narad muni is suprised to see this and asks the three gods, why is this? Brahma answer by saying it is a secret that bhagvan vishnu and shiva are both one. The lord has given jivas a choice to believe in shiva or vishnu.The jiva can also have darshan and through meditation see them both in one form called hari-hal.

Bhagvaan shankar has all three forms of brahma, vishnu and shankara. Thus he creates, preserves and destroys. Its very complicated.

[Guest guest]

I will agree with someone who said that they can relate more to shiva than krishna.It is the same with me, no matter how much I try to relate myself to krishna it just doesn't happen. Everything that happens in the world happens because god allowing it to happen so if god wants you to believe in shankar then thats it. There no saying how he might try to pull at you and in what form?????