Hansadutta Writes

[livingentity]

can I not afford the BBT vedabase but I would not pay their price for it even if I could afford it. $600 is absurd!! Also, does it cost extra for the protective device you have to put on your computer to use it?

 

Be angry with me if you like but I am one of those that purchased the foliodisk set with all the works of Prabhupada plus all the videos and audios. I am pleased that this was put out so that others like myself could afford the nectar! I make no appologies for buying this set instead of doing without.

 

This is book distribution in a high tech age. Am I misunderstanding but doesn't Srila Prabhupada want His books to be accessible to all?

 

I correct myself - I said I was pleased to have this set - No, I am thrilled!! I am excited!! I love it and I use it each and everyday! This is an ocean of nectar and I would never have been able to experience this mercy without this most affordable set!

[gHari]

Fifty bucks buys five books, maybe. Six archivists at 5 years is 30 man-years. Say ten grand a year to live cheaply. That's 300 thousand. Fifty bucks into 300 grand is 6,000. Therefore we would need to sell six thousand Vedabases at fifty bucks to break even and keep the archiving effort alive.

 

Even at $600 we would need to sell five hundred copies. That is perhaps possible given the number of devotees with computers.

 

I could not afford either version now. I'm glad I bought Prabhupada when I thought I was rich.

[Guest guest]

I agree 100% with both Theist and Living Entity. The CD and online books should be easily accessible. If not free, then at least at a reasonable price, maybe 50 bucks like Theist suggested. Now Gary (I'm in direct touch with Supersoul) Stevason tells us it's unconscionable, and that it is constitutes cheating and theft. Yeah right, Gary, where were you when all the devotees were shaving up and living like monks when Srila Prabhupada was present? You were getting your education and entering the corporate world, and now you are in a position to make the big bucks to afford a $600 CD. I still know many devotees who, after 20 or more years of Temple service, have to go out and sell stickers to make a little something to put food on the table for their families.

 

Gary, get down off your high horse and stop playing judge and jury. The devotees who sacrificed a good chunk of their lives distributing (or facilitating the distribution) of Srila Prabhupada's books, foregoing an college degree and the corporate world should be allowed easy, if not free, access to Srila Prabhupada's books online. If you don't agree, then put your money where your mouth is: subsidize the cost of the CDs, or purchase a whole bushel full of CDs for donating to needy disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Now, before you become predictably enraged upon reading this, please breathe deeply for a few seconds and in a pensive mood, quietly ponder what Caitya Guru would advise you to do (or say.) Can you do that? I think you can. I really do. Just remember that you are no longer a javelin thrower like you were in High School. If you want to throw something, throw some CDs our way, or at least throw some gink to the BBT so that they can reduce the price of their CDs. Okie doke?

 

Thanks, mate.

 

Cheers!

[stonehearted]

gHari: I now seem to have a gnawing fear that I somehow remember learning later that this was one of the changes that was actually made to coincide with Srila Prabhupada's original words. That is why it is so difficult and dangerous to criticize changes to the books. Very often we are actually ridiculing Prabhupada in doing so.

 

Moreover, the word is not tattva-darshi but tattva-darshinah, which is in fact plural.

 

This is one reason I've been reluctant to get embroiled in this; it's more complicated than either party generally acknowledges.

[gHari]

Nor would I want to be. Actually I find it frightening that such a creature thinks it knows anything about me. Now I know why ISKCON died.

[Guest guest]

"Nor would I want to be."

 

Aw Gary, why not! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Well, actually, I think you're probably right, and the feeling is most LIKELY (your favorite word, btw), mutual.

 

"Actually I find it frightening that such a creature thinks it knows anything about me."

 

I only know about you what you have shared about yourself on the internet, both here and on the old VNN forums. Don't play innocent, Gary. You've bragged (oops, shared) your javeling throwing several times before on devotee forums, as well as your direct connection with Supersoul. Don't be so frightened. You have nothing to fear but fear itself.

 

"Now I know why ISKCON died."

 

Is it actually dead? Yes, the institution and "infrastructure" has deteriorated, but I don't think greater ISKCON has died. But if you believe that way, that is your own defective vision, certainly not inspired by Supersoul.

 

Cheers mate! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

PS I do commend you on taking some deep breaths and curbing your anger somewhat. Not bad. Could have been better, but still, not as bad as I expected.

 

Interesting though, that you avoided addressing the topic at hand. Seems that defending your pride was more important. Ironic though that you always like to quote Sri Sikshastakam. Wish you would try practicing it a bit more.

 

Warm Regards Gary!

[gHari]

I did not address your ideas because they are inconsistent. Stealing from current devotees to help old devotees is not a meaningful solution. The archives should make special arrangements for temple devotees.

 

Prabhupada did not give the books away at cost.

[livingentity]

 

Third World Discount

 

How are they able to discount it by $500.00 for Africa and Asia but not at all for anywhere else?

[Guest guest]

"I did not address your ideas because they are inconsistent."

 

Not sure what that means. At any rate, you used words like "unconscionable", "stealing", and "theft." Although you haven't named anyone personally, Living Entity was brave enough to openly admit that she obtained one of these CDs. By logical inference, you are calling her "unconscionable" and the like. You didn't retract your words, and in fact you have reiterated your position, so it appears that your accusations against Living Entity and all the devotees like her who have obtained these reduced-cost CD's, stands.

 

At any rate, Theist also made some excellent points, and quoted from Srila Prabhupada about the "Christian Science" reading rooms, where people can read for free.

 

"Prabhupada did not give the books away at cost."

 

In most cases, true. But that was at a time and place when nearly all of Iskcon's income was acquired from book distribution. That is not the case now. So, your point is well-taken, but open for debate. If you don't want to debate with me, then address Theist and Living Entity's valid points. Don't just sling out words like "unconscionable" and "theft" and then expect everyone to go along with you, especially, as I pointed out, you went a different route during Iskcon's early days, getting an education and a high-paying job, while foregoing the monastic lifestyle. (Again, autobiographical tidbits which you have shared on devotee forums in the past.) I don't think you're in a position to judge those devotees who made the sacrifice of leaving behind their jobs and education for full-time devotional service.

 

 

Cheers mate! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gHari]

I never insinuated that buying the CD was unconscionable, theft or stealing. The sentence read "Buying their stolen CD is also a blow to Prabhupada." If one cannot acquire the twenty dollars a month, and Krsna wants them to have the CD, then will Prabhupada be offended? I don't know; I cannot even afford the bootleg version. If someone could afford to support the archive but choses to save money with the bootleg, then I think they will get what they pay for.

 

Prabhupada had a reason why people should pay. Now, to some of us twenty bucks is a lot of money (food for a couple of weeks); so that paying should fulfill his requirement.

[stonehearted]

And "sort-after"? Don't they have anyone whose first language is English? It's really embarrassing when such blatant mistakes are published for the world to see.

 

[livingentity]

eye shore due hop dat nobodie seas dat won, teach.

[stonehearted]

how many of my papers have sentences that look so much like that. You have to admit that I don't generally correct spelling and grammar when I'm not asked, but this is an advertisement, purportedly representing Srila Prabhupada! It's a good idea to have someone check as copy for correctness.

 

Here's how bad I am: I stopped reading the ad as soon as I saw that. And since it's in the headline, I basically saw none of the ad.

[livingentity]

be in the languages of the countries it is targeted towards? I know that english is spoken in many parts of the world but..

 

Anyway, does anybody know how they can market this disk at such an incredible discount there but not in Europe or the US? Also, is it in a different format that would not work for Europe or the US?

 

 

[stonehearted]

I think that since VedaBase in is English, it's probably most useful to English speakers. I don't know if it's available in other langurages. Anyone here know?

 

They present the price as a service to those with more limited resources. However, I think it raises sone questions about the necessity of charging $600+ in "the West." What, indeed, about those devotees who can't come up with an extra $25 a month because they gave their youth to supporting ISKCON rather than earning money? I know that I have a hard time some months setting aside extra money for things I'd like, like new books, CDs etc. I can easily imagine it's harder for those who don'thave even my means.

[gHari]

Lively Entity,

 

The cost of producing another vedabase once the original has been created is probably under twenty dollars US.

 

I think they offer this price for the third world because for them 100 bucks is like 600 bucks in America. Now this most sort-after vedabase is within the gasp of the average spear-chucker.

 

gHari

P.S. Thanks for the needed laff

 

P.P.S. I just checked airfares to Africa but they are all over $600

 

[Guest guest]

Response to original article

by Akruranath das

 

Hansadutta asks, "What is Jayadvaita's Point?".

 

The point of Jayadvaita Swami's article was to refute Govinda dasi's assertion that Hayagriva and Srila Prabhupada worked daily together on the Bhagavad-gita for two years before finally settling on the exact wording of the Macmillan edition that was published in 1972.

 

Hansadutta seems angry that Jayadvaita Swami's insistence on setting the historical record straight somehow reflects poorly on Srila Prabhupada or Hayagriva. His tirade can thus, perhaps, be forgiven as a manifestation of his love for Srila Prabhupada.

 

However, I did not find anything in Jayadvaita Swami's article that in any way reflected poorly on Srila Prabhupada or Hayagriva. The glories of Srila Prabhupada are so obvious and magnificent that they do not need to be assisted by distortions of history.

 

The fact that Srila Prabhupada was so enthusiastic to preach that he endangered his health is a manifestation of his ecstatic mood, relished by the devotees. Srila Prabhupada's instructions to Hayagriva about the relative importance of his Bhagavad-gita purports and Srila Prabhupada's attitude to the verse translations, recorded in Hayagriva's book, are useful to know, and are no cause for shame or embarrassment.

 

While Hansadutta's annoyance about Jayadvaita Swami's citations to Hayagriva's account may be viewed charitably and forgiven, I can find no excuse for Hansadutta's false description of his cross-complaint against BBT International, Inc. in Los Angeles County Superior Court. I served as one of the lawyers for BBT International in that litigation, and feel that Hansadutta's blatant distortion of the facts should not be left uncorrected, lest devotees be misled.

 

The litigation started when Hansadutta's followers in Malaysia and Singapore, the Prabhupada Yoga Meditation Asociation (PYMA), began publishing and selling a pirated copy of the BBT's Chinese translation of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, without any authority from the BBT, and without paying any royalties. Sri Rama das, who was in charge of BBT International's legal department at the time (around 1991), made some attempts to resolve the matter informally, but eventually filed a copyright action in Singapore.

 

Hansadutta enlisted the help of Gupta das, a devotee lawyer, and crafted a clever but dishonest defense to the Singapore copyright infringement action, which was not fully revealed until the Singapore case was on the verge of trial in 1997. Hansadutta told the Singapore court that he was the Trustee of the BBT and had given his approval to PYMA to publish the copyrighted books. He contested BBT International's ownership of the copyrights, and pretended that he did not know who BBT International was.

 

Of course, all of the devotees know that Hansadutta was once a BBT Trustee and a member of the GBC and a leader in ISKCON, but was eventually disgraced and excommunicated by the GBC and thereafter ceased to act as BBT Trustee. The details about Hansadutta's disgraceful behavior in the 1980s are well known and I will not repeat them here. Whatever he has done, he is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and a Vaisnava, which should be respected. "Quickly he will become righteous." However, Hansadutta did not continue to act as a BBT Trustee throughout the 1980s and 1990s. In the mid-1980s, Hansadutta turned over all of the operations of his BBT zone (Southeast Asia) to Hari Sauri prabhu, and no longer functioned as a BBT Trustee.

 

However, in the Singapore litigation and the California litigation that followed, Hansadutta falsely asserted that he had never ceased to be a BBT Trustee, that he had for some time served as the only BBT Trustee, and then in the 1990s appointed the following additional Trustees: (1) Veda Guhya das; (2) Bhima das (the Malaysian-Chinese Bhima, a Hansadutta loyalist, not Srila Prabhupada's disciple from St. Louis); and (3) Dasanudas devi dasi (Bhima's wife).

 

In other words, Hansadutta claimed that the actual BBT Trustees were himself and these hand-selected co-trustees, and that these so-called BBT Trustees actually held the copyrights to Srila Prabhupada's books. Make no mistake about it: the litigation between Hansadutta and BBT International was not about the editing of Srila Prabhupada's books: it was nothing short of a coup attempt by Hansadutta and his cronies, to take over the BBT for themselves and to then decide for themselves who could and could not publish Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

Hansadutta's position got support from the fact that in 1972, Srila Prabhupada signed a BBT Trust Agreement in Los Angeles, and when Karandhar resigned in 1974, the remaining Trustees, Srila Prabhupada and Bali Mardana, appointed Hansadutta as his replacement under that document. BBT International never denied these facts in the litigation.

 

However, it is also undeniable that Srila Prabhupada later appointed Ramesvara, Hridyananda dasa Goswami, and others to serve as BBT Trustees, and that by 1985 and thereafter, Hansadutta had completely failed to act and had effectively resigned as a BBT Trustee, while the remaining BBT Trustees continued to conduct international BBT operations just as they had done before.

 

After Bhagavan and Ramesvara left in 1986, the remaining BBT Trustees requested Sri Rama to look into legal affairs for the BBT in Los Angeles. In consultation with able attorneys, Sri Rama concluded that for various reasons (completely unrelated to editing) the BBT should be reconstituted as BBT International, Inc. This conclusion was presented at several large meetings of devotees, and to the GBC, and a formal GBC resolution approving the reconstitution was published. BBT International, Inc. was created as a California religious corporation in around 1988. The trustees of the new corporation were the same as those currently serving as international BBT Trustees at that time. Hansadutta had been long gone by then, and it was not surprising or unusual that he was not consulted about this change in legal organization.

 

The reconstitution of the BBT was not done in secret. There were public meetings and GBC resolutions, and Sri Rama wrote an article about it in ISKCON World Review, but apparently the devotees took little notice of it until Hansadutta made an issue out of it years later in connection with his attempt to take over the BBT through litigation.

 

Contrary to Hansadutta's assertion, the Court never rejected BBT International's position in the lawsuit, and never approved Hansadutta's claim to still be a Trustee. Both sides filed motions for summary judgment (i.e., for judgment in their favor without trial, based on the application of the law to undisputed facts.) Judge Shook denied both sides' motions and decided that the two sides disputed certain material issues of fact, which would have to be resolved in a trial to decide who was telling the truth.

 

I remain firmly convinced that, if the case had gone to trial, the Court would have decided that BBT International was telling the truth, and that Hansadutta was lying. However, preparing and trying the case would be expensive, and there is always some risk involved in any trial.

 

Before the case went to trial, the parties entered into a pretrial settlement. The details of the settlement's terms were to remain confidential, but the facts announced to the public were as follows: The parties agreed to a judgment being entered by the Court, whereby the trust created by the California 1972 BBT Trust Agreement was declared the owner of the copyrights, and the Trustees under that Trust Agreement were declared to be Naresvara, Madhusevita, Svavasa, Jayadvaita Swami and Brahma-Muhurta (i.e., the then-existing trustees of the BBT International, Inc.) Hansadutta and his alleged co-trustees gave up their effort to control the BBT, which angered erstwhile supporters like Nara-Narayana das, who complained in at least one or two VNN articles.

 

In exchange for giving up the attempt to be proclaimed the actual BBT Trustees, Hansadutta's group of would-be Trustees, which now included Bhagavan, along with their lawyer Gupta, were given permission to form an entity that would be given a publishing license from the BBT. Hansadutta also was paid some money. Both sides agreed to keep the details of the settlement confidential, and not to disparage each other.

 

In the aftermath of the litigation, the Hansadutta group formed an entity known as Krishna Books, Inc., and from what I later heard, a power struggle ensued in which Gupta, Bhagavan and Veda Guhya succeeded in expelling Hansadutta from the organization. Once Hansadutta's position as a former Trustee appointed under the terms of the 1972 Trust Agreement was no longer significant, Hansadutta had become expendable to them.

 

Krishna Books, Inc. apparently has published some pre-1977 editions of Srila Prabhupada's books and, to promote the sales, Gupta arguably violated the non-disparagement agreement by publicly attacking the post-1977 editing efforts and Jayadvaita Swami personally. That prompted the latest round of "editing debates" on the Internet, of which Hansadutta's editorial is the latest installment.

 

As long as he was part of a licensed entity, Hansadutta was happy to take a license under the BBT's copyrights. Now that he has been expelled by his former lawyer, it seems that Hansadutta has decided to try to attack the BBT's copyright position once again. This directly contradicts his stipulation to a judgment of the Los Angeles County Superior Court in November 1998, in which the Court declared that the BBT validly owns the copyrights.

 

Srila Prabhupada repeatedly advised the temples that they should not publish his books on their own, but should purchase them from the BBT. The BBT marks up the books and uses 50 percent of the sales proceeds for publishing new books, and 50 percent as a fund for constructing new temples, as Srila Prabhupada desired. Hansadutta's new attack on the copyrights is not only a contradiction of the position he took in the settlement of the lawsuit, but is a direct attack on Srila Prabhupada's instructions in this matter.

 

[livingentity]

well, that rules out flying to Africa to get one!

 

 

P.P.S. I just checked airfares to Africa but they are all over $600

 

 

Right now, I can't even afford the $95 price nor can I afford the $25 a month method.

 

 

[livingentity]

"Lively Entity"!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

I am glad the mood has lightened up!! I was starting to feel squashed - it was so heavy in here!!

[Guest guest]

Yes, Gary, you did insinuate the above. It is possible that you are feeling embarrassed by the outcome. It's also possible that you didn't word your thoughts properly and intended to say something else. But, there is little doubt as to the "insinuation" of your statements and accusations.

 

If someone knowingly purchases "stolen" items, then isn't that person also just as guilty (at least morally, if not legally) as the person selling them? Aren't they both part of the same unconscionable "conspiracy", just as a patron ordering meat at a restaurant is just as culpable as the cook who cooks it (or "burns" it, no pun intended), as well as the butcher in the slaughterhouse?

 

Your argument is that there are devotees who are cheating the BBT and selling "bootlegged" versions of the CD. The devotees who buy these CDs are in full knowledge that they are saving hundreds of dollars by doing this, as they are well aware of the regular retail price from the BBT. You call me inconsistent, but your argument is similarly flawed. If the people selling "bootlegged" copies are cheaters and unconscionable, then so are the persons who buy. A bit of common sense and logic would dictate that, based upon your assumptions. Not that I buy into your argument that the alleged "bootleggers" are cheaters to begin with. Competition, yes. Other than that, I have my doubts. And from reading the above BBT ad offering a $500 discount to non-Americans, one could make a case that this constitutes cheating.

 

Cheers, and Warm Regards

 

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[gHari]

I know what I said.

[theist]

>>And "sort-after"? Don't they have anyone whose first language is English? It's really embarrassing when such blatant mistakes are published for the world to see.<<

 

Hey Babhru, I hope these aren't the *sought* of editors that are editing the books.

 

Yeah I have to laugh a bit when I think of you having to correct da pidgeon in the islands. I'm bad enough. I also think of Jagat who must cringe at this. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[gHari]

You ever heard Babhru and Mahaksa rapping?

[gHari]

Does anyone know the source of the lawyer's response to Hansadutta's hit on Jayadvaita? I don't see it on VNN.

[theist]

You ever heard Babhru and Mahaksa rapping? <<

 

yeah, but then I was there for a short while. When I fie=rst landed in Hawaii i thought everyone was talking Hawaiian when it was really pidgeon English. When I left and came back to the mainland no one could understand me. It creeps in by osmosis.

 

There are different layers also. Haole pidgeon is not the same as born on island pidgeon.