I am a little confused with our philosophies here

[Enlightened]

Sorry, I can't go to my other post for some reason, it says

"Page cannot be found"

 

Oh well... well here is the article or actually a conversation between "Hansadutta" and "Guest". I am very disturbed by the various types of things said in this article... however I do believe that our main goal is to reach krishna .

 

I always thought that our bodies have nothing to do with us.

I was very angry when he said "An unmarried woman is a disturbance to all men; a married woman is a disturbance to only one"

 

Forgive me, I have great respect to the fellow devotees of krishna... however this article has given my heart extreme pain.

 

the url address for this article is this: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1148/sex.html

___

 

--

 

What about Krishna women?

Men and Women are Not Equal

On the platform of the soul there is no difference between man and woman, but we are in the conditioned stage. The effects of the body are a reality, though unreal in the last analysis. Their effects are temporary.

A male has certain characteristics by nature, and a female has certain other characteristics. If we artificially try to make them equals, we shall not succeed. Women say that they are equal to men, but if so, why don't men become pregnant and bear children? There is a physical and psychological difference between men and women. Vedic culture recognizes that difference. That does not mean that women are bad or that we should discriminate against women, but it means that we should recognize the relationship as it is.

 

Measure of Intelligence

GUEST: It has been proven that women are more intelligent than men in America.

 

HANSADUTTA: Women are more intelligent than men materially, but not spiritually. A woman's intelligence works for material comfort and enjoyment; whereas a man's intelligence is more inclined towards spiritual life. In the material world, women are the impetus for men's work. ":Behind every great man is a woman." Amongst children, girls are always more intelligent than boys. They learn reading, writing and arithmetic with ease, while the boys struggle. Women are very intelligent in the material sense, and they give inspiration to men to work hard and accomplish wonderful things materially.

 

But when it comes to spiritual life, the connection between men and woman becomes an obstacle. A man who is attached to woman cannot make spiritual advancement, even though he may advance materially.

 

There are two kinds of intelligence: material and spiritual. A man who is inspired by Krishna consciousness is more intelligent, because spiritual intelligence leads to permanent happiness; whereas material intelligence leads only to temporary happiness.

 

American men worship women. When we say women are less intelligent, they feel terrible. They wonder why we talk like this. Women are less intelligent for spiritual advancement; however, if they acknowledge their rightful position, there is no problem.

 

A Woman's Place

Most women want to be independent, and they are being encouraged to become so. Therefore society is in chaos, and everyone is suffering. In India the women are happy, because they are chaste and shy. They maintain the house and make their husbands comfortable and happy. Western men and women marry as equals, and that is not good. The man says something, and the wife says something else, and then they fight. In the Vedic system, the wife serves her husband, and she is happy doing that.

 

Women are not equal, and the problem is they are not being trained to serve any man; they are being trained to seduce him and keep him running on the treadmill of hard work, hard struggle for existence.

 

A woman should accept her position as servant. She should be subordinate to a man and allow him to take care of her, instead of trying to be a man and woman all in one. A woman should allow a man to take charge of her life; then she will be happy. If she tries to be equal to or better than the man--even if she is--her marriage will fail, because no man can be happy with a woman telling him what to do, even if she is more intelligent.

 

A woman's only business is to be protected by a man. Women can neither live alone nor together. A woman can live with one man who will take care of her. All women should be married. An unmarried woman is a disturbance to all men; a married woman is a disturbance to only one. If a woman does not have a good husband, her life will be miserable. On the other hand, if a woman has a good husband, her life will be fulfilled--she will be protected both materially and spiritually. Of course, the husband should accept a bona fide spiritual master. At present, women don't get good husbands, nor do the husbands accept a spiritual master; therefore no one is happy.

 

 

Is sex allowed?

Association with the Opposite Sex is Restricted

The difference between a man and a woman is the body, which is only a dress. One man may wear a tuxedo, and another man may wear blue jeans, but that difference is external. Similarly, the body is the external covering of the soul. The ingredients of a man's or woman's body are the same, but because we are conditioned to act in the bodily concept and illusioned by bodily differences, men and women are kept strictly separate for the purpose of advancing in Krishna consciousness. Brahmacharis (unmarried men), vanaprasthas and sannyasis (men who have retired from family life to practice renunciation and those who have renounced all worldly connection) have no association with the opposite sex. Only grihasthas (married men) are allowed to associate with women.

Sex Means Entanglement

Everyone is trying to be happy in material life by finding a sex companion. A man wants a wife; a woman wants a husband; they beget children, and then they have to work to provide for the children, to raise and educate them. Thus they forget about self-realization and remain in material existence, suffering the miseries of birth, old age, disease and death. There is no happiness in the material world, but the sex attraction bewilders everyone's intelligence, and convinces us that we will find happiness where there is no possibility of finding it.

 

The Original Male-Female Attraction

The sex principle is motivating human and animal society. The aim of Vedic culture is to dissolve the man-woman attachment so that one may return to his original relationship as pure spirit soul, servant of Krishna and thus go back to Godhead. The greatest stumbling block on the path of spiritual advancement is man's attraction for woman and woman's attraction for man.

 

This attraction exists because in the Absolute Truth there is also male and female attraction: Radha-Krishna, or purusha and prakriti. When the conditioned soul falls to the material world, he comes with the desire to imitate Krishna. He wants to be a purusha--he wants to enjoy. That enjoyment is epitomized in the male and female attraction. There is male and female attraction in the spiritual world, but it is pure; whereas in the material world, that attraction is impure. It is a perverted reflection of the spiritual principle of purusha and prakriti.

 

Purusha means male, and prakriti means female. In the spiritual world there is only one purusha, and that person is Krishna, or God. He enjoys with everyone else. All other persons are prakriti, or female.

 

This is a transcendental philosophy which cannot be understood in terms of mundane sex. Freud was concerned with sex, but he had no idea about the spiritual principle of purusha and prakriti. He was only aware of the material attraction of male and female, without knowing why this attraction exists in human and animal society. Freud concluded that the sex principle is the basic motivation for all material activities, but he did not know the origin of the sex principle. Why should there be male or female? Where has this principle come from? This he did not know.

 

The Absolute Truth embodies this principle as purusha and prakriti, or God and the servants of God. God is enjoying everyone's service. Spiritual life means that we are objects of Krishna's enjoyment. We should allow ourselves to be enjoyed by Krishna. If we try to enjoy ourselves by artificial love in this mundane society, we won't be successful. The purusha, or male, enjoys the female, who is always subordinate to the male. Therefore Krishna is enjoying everyone, and if we agree to enjoy with Krishna, then we shall also enjoy.

 

If we think, "Why should Krishna enjoy? Why should I serve Krishna? I will serve myself, and my wife, along with my children and friends, will serve me. I will enjoy because I am the greatest," and if we only aim to please ourselves, we shall develop a demoniac mentality. A devotee's mentality is to satisfy Krishna--"Whatever Krishna desires, I desire. Whatever Krishna does not like, I do not like." That is Krishna consciousness.

 

______

 

[livingentity]

Women in Krsna Consciousness

 

Questions and Answers by Visakha-devi dasi

 

Q Why should women be interested in Krsna consciousness?

 

A So they can realize they're not women! If we think of ourselves as "women", we reveal our ignorance of our actual identity. The word "woman" refers to the temporary material body, not to the eternal, spiritual soul, the person within the body. In maybe forty or sixty years, the body I'm wearing will perish, and I'll no longer be a woman. But the living force, the soul within the body, won't perish. Krsna consciousness provides an understanding of the relationship between the soul and matter and the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Human intelligence is meant for contemplating these subjects, not for dwelling on materialistic thoughts based on false identification with the temporary body.

 

Q What do you think of the women's liberation movement?

 

A The highest liberation is to go back home, back to Godhead, and never again face the miseries of birth, death, old age, disease, and death. Although the woman's liberation movement may offer some worthwhile proposals, it generally ignores this highest goal. But by becoming Krsna conscious, a woman is liberated in this life and the next; so Krsna consciousness is the real woman's liberation movement.

 

Q In the Krsna consciousness movement, what is the position of woman devotees?

 

A From the spiritual viewpoint, men and woman (and all other living entities) are equal. The soul within the body is part and parcel of Krsna and is equal in quality and quantity to all other souls. But from the material, bodily point of view, obviously there are differences.

 

Q What about those differences?

 

A As far as serving Krsna and preaching Krsna consciousness, material differences are ignored. Men and women serve the Supreme Lord's Deity form in the temple - worshiping, cleaning, cooking - and they go out daily to preach to interested people and distribute literature about Krsna consciousness. Woman with children both care for their children and spread Krsna consciousness along side their unmarried godsisters. Actually, to raise a child as a devotee of God is in itself a great service to Krsna.

 

Q But I've heard that you think women are inferior to men. Is that true?

 

A As I mentioned before, spiritually there's no distinction. In Bhagavad-Gita Krsna says that both men and women are eligible to attain the highest destination, to return to the kingdom of God, if they take shelter of Him. Spiritually there's no duality, no inferiority or superiority based on the body and mind. But there are material differences: women are generally not as physically strong as men, but only women can bear children and nourish them with their breast milk. So it's natural that women's duties are different from men's in some ways.

 

Q Today many people reject that idea. It won't make your movement very popular among women.

 

A We can't change the Krsna conscious philosophy to make it popular. Nor are we so concerned with popularity. We simply want to present Krsna's teachings as they are, and those who hear receptively will benefit. The first step in spiritual understanding is to transcend the bodily concept of life. To think "I am a man" or "I am a woman" is to be in illusion. The body is a material dress for the soul, a dress that's changing from moment to moment, as the body develops, and will change entirely at death. But the constant within the body is the soul, which is not subject to birth, death, or any other material influence.

 

Q How do men and women relate to each other in Krsna consciousness?

 

A Except for his wife, a Krsna conscious man should regard every woman as he would his mother. So in Krsna consciousness the relationship between men and women is based not on lust but mutual respect, with Krsna in the center. If this mentality is absent, men and women mix too freely and their relationship may easily degrade into immorality and mutual exploitation.

 

Q What about more intimate relationships?

 

A In more intimate relationships, the man protects the woman. In a woman's youth, her father protects her; after marriage, her husband protects her; and in later life her grown sons protect her.

 

Q What do you mean, "protect"?

 

A Protection from illusion and degradation is the real protection. When the father, husband, and sons are fully trained in spiritual principles by the spiritual master, they are qualified to guide their family members.

Bhagavad-Gita points out that when the religious tradition in the family breaks down, the chastity and faithfulness of women are shaken. As men and women mix freely, the result is abortion and unwanted progeny. From such immorality and licentiousness come broken homes and the degradation of the whole society. Conversely, when the husband is a dedicated devotee of God and the wife is loyal, good progeny and a harmonious society result.

 

Q But what if the woman wants to be more than just a housewife?

 

A That is welcome and encouraged. Women in the Krsna consciousness movement sing, write, photograph, paint, act, sculpt, teach, and dance. One of my godsisters in our West Virginia farm community is an architect. Now she's helping plan a huge temple that the devotees there will build over the next few years. So there's no hindrance at all to a woman who wants to use her special talents to serve Krsna.

 

Q Can women become leaders?

 

A Real leadership is to teach by example and precept how to go back home, back to Godhead, at the end of this lifetime. A fully Krsna conscious devotee, whether man or woman, is actually more of a leader than all the so-called leaders of modern society. Materialistic leaders simply increase our material problems. A devotee decreases those problems to nil. That is real leadership.

 

[raga]

 

Women are more intelligent than men materially, but not spiritually. A woman's intelligence works for material comfort and enjoyment; whereas a man's intelligence is more inclined towards spiritual life.

 

 

So now Bhakti-devi, who appears on account of her own supremely independent grace alone, has become more inclined to appear in the hearts of men on account of their supposedly more refined intelligence? Such a conception is mixed with the jnana-marga, not an unadulterated bhakti-conception. This is something that unfortunately occurs often in the modern monastic Gaudiya movements.

 

Don't worry about it.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Living Entity, that is much better way to look at things... it makes more sense.

 

May be hansadutta should get this article...

 

Anyway, Why can't I post on my name? It seems that when I login it does not let me post... showing this as " Page not Found".

 

Something is wrong with my name...

 

-enlightened.

[Guest guest]

a good one. thanks.

 

jai sri krishna!

 

[Guest guest]

We cannot just "don't worry about". The sexist and misogynistic philosophies of this material world should be confronted and we should shield ourselves from letting such base misogynistic views of subjugation of one type of living entity by another from getting into our philosophies.

 

We should stop such things before they enter into our KC philosophy.

 

In reply to:

______

"On the platform of the soul there is no difference between man and woman.but we are in the conditioned stage. The effects of the body are a reality, though unreal in the last analysis. Their effects are temporary."

______

 

If our bodies are just clothing like it says in bhagavath geeta then why are we establishing gender roles...

 

If the very body is a temporary thing then shouldn't we eliminate those temporary effects so that we can go back to krishna with no biased ideals that show the male patriarchy?

 

He says that we should recognize that as it is... ok , that I understand, you don't force girls into acting like guys and guys into acting like girls but that does that mean guys have to tell girls how to live their lives? So you would let your spouse in the future tell you what to do? what to wear? what to eat? as if you are not krishna's but his?

 

then what is the _______ difference between a slave and a wife?

 

In reply to :

________

American men worship women. When we say women are less intelligent, they feel terrible.

_________

 

what kind of a mental speculation is this? Has he ever seen the streets of America? where the heck did he get that idea? Whole America is run by disgusting WHite Male Patriarchy that excels in showing off violence and hatred against women. Why do you think these gangsta rapers get all that money?

 

where every single word of those songs refers to women as "B_____" and "Wh____". The whole society of america is a disgusting women hating society.

 

So mental speculation that comes from a no good isolated

forest is not going to do the trick in solving this problem.

 

[Guest guest]

In reply to :

__________

In India the women are happy, because they are chaste and shy.

__________

 

What kind of an idea is that? women are happy in India?

Has Mr. HANSADUTTA ever been a woman atleast once in his life to experience how fearsome it is to walk on the streets of India?

 

I went to India, there You can't walk alone after 7:00 clock due to the fear of getting raped by some crazy woman hating sex offender.

Girls are jeered at, harrassed at Bus stations.

Has he ever taken a bus in India? How about a train? What world did he come from ? Is he even an Indian? Has he lived in the cities of Hyderabad or Bombay?

 

In reply to:

__________

They maintain the house and make their husbands comfortable and happy. Western men and women marry as equals, and that is not good. The man says something, and the wife says something else, and then they fight. In the Vedic system, the wife serves her husband, and she is happy doing that.

__________

 

Is he kidding? Has any one taken the statistics of How many wifes were burnt in those kitchens? How many wifes are banned by their husbands from seeing their parents or going to parties or other festivities?

In India, women have to ask permission of their spouses to even go to a near by temple on the same fricking block!

What world was he living in?

 

Like traffic rules in America, there are "Human rules" in India: but they only care to have those rules for women.

 

When you go you have to take some one with you, but if it is another girl then that is no good , because you gotta have a guy with you. EVeN IF THAT MEANS HE IS LIKE 10 years old.

WHat kind of world is this HANSADUTTA LIVING IN?

 

In reply to :

__________Women are not equal, and the problem is they are not being trained to serve any man; they are being trained to seduce him and keep him running on the treadmill of hard work, hard struggle for existence.

__________

 

Is he again kidding? Does he have any Idea how many women are seduced and raped in America each day? The statistics show that for every 2 mins there is a rape happening in America.

 

Women then get pregnant and they make them have babies by trying to ban Abortion. After they give their babies birth, THE GIRL would have to struggle to raise the child. The father just runs off to have sex with another girl!.

Does he know how many single mothers there are in America?

How many of them are raped? Seduced ? Cheated upon?

 

_______________________

 

To talk about subjugation of women is an easy task if you are not wearing "SO CALLED BIOLOGICAL CLOTHING OR BODY".

 

BUT THE WRITER WILL LEARN THE TRUTH WHEN HE GETS BORN AS A WOMAN IN HIS NEXT BIRTH IN THIS DISGUSTING WORLD OF WESTERN AND EASTERN PATRIARCHY.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ideals.

 

thank you.

 

[Guest guest]

In reply to:

BUT THE WRITER WILL LEARN THE TRUTH WHEN HE GETS BORN AS A WOMAN IN HIS NEXT BIRTH IN THIS DISGUSTING WORLD OF WESTERN AND EASTERN PATRIARCHY.

_______

 

I WOULD BE GLAD TO SEE HOW HE BECOMES A SERVANT OF A STRANGER WHO HE HAD NEVER SEEN IN HIS LIFE BEFORE, AND I WOULD GLADLY SEE HOW HE LETS HIS LIFE PUT IN THE HANDS OF HIS SPOUSE IN HIS FUTURE LIFE.

[Guest guest]

the quintessance of my heart. I say this not because I am a woman, or a man, Because I am a living entity that belongs to krishna and krishna alone. Whatever be the result of the posts above this post , may those results be of krishna

[theist]

I have read vaisnavis post that they would naturally and gladly submit to a man in Krsna consciousness if they could find one. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Maybe more time should be spent on what defines a man in KC. Afterall if the woman should submit to a man then it should be well known by attributes one can be recognized.

 

So what is the difference between a man and a beast? Then between a man and a man in Krsna conscious life?

[Guest guest]

Dear Devotee,

 

There are many references throughout the Shastra that give geographical

Locations as well as destinations of the spirit soul (Jeeva).

 

Basic understanding will place the embodied soul in one of the following;

 

1.Material world i.e. lower. Middle, higher, planets in any species-Indragopa -human-man -woman- demigod.

 

2.Brahman- spiritual effulgence - jeevas reside here but have no seva.

 

3.Vaikunta - spiritual planets - jeevas live here and serve the lord of Vaikunta with awe and reverence.

 

4. Goloka - The Acme of all spiritual planets. Here the jeevas serve the Lord of Vrindaban in a mood of intimacy according to their individual choosing.

 

Note:

The jeeva maybe embodied or not if one is engaged in activities of pure devotion he\she is said to be liberated. If the Jeeva has other interests he\she is said to be conditioned or covered by Maya.

 

- Alan

 

[Guest guest]

Mahaprabhu came especially for the householders and did not consider women an impediment. Read how he treated his own mother. Hansadutta should polish up on his reading.....

But then again, he is not necessarily someone you should hear from, with his record....

Read Prabhupada's books and those of the Goswamis and all questions will be satisfactorily answered.

[I_love_krishna_]

dear guest,

Can you elaborate on that issue a little more please?

 

thanks!