DIVORCE rate in ISKCON

[Guest guest]

what is the divorce rate in a society?

 

I do not want to make it a negative post.

but is anything is done int his direction? Anyone knows?

what the solution?

 

From my (I cannot say experince) but observation that I do run a Quixtar/Amway business (platinum level) and i'm single. From what I know among close to 50+ thausands platinums in Amway there is 1.5% divorce rate at this moment. Which is mind blowing.

 

They attribute is to a strong educational system and promoting God centered life which based on

 

1. God 1st

2. Family 2nd

3. Business 3rd

 

and teach that wife role is to complete her man not to compete.

 

Submission is absence of rebellion.

 

and less than 2% devorce rate is a result. AND what is scarry is - this is our KC philosophy and we not getting gripp on it.

 

Why? In my opinion. Then you have husband-wife business and you not get along very well you will feel it RIGTH away with your pocket (your income goes down because nobody wants to be around you)

 

and in spiritual life you do not see destructive results right away - it comes later on as kids raised without mom and dad.

 

My point is - aither we not teaching properly or not following or somehting else is wrong.

 

And i have a strong feeling that husband and wife are not together and do not have common goals and going their own ways. Thats the path of distruction.

 

But again i never married - i can't talk about this from experince but only can repeat from that i learned/heard from people who happily married.

 

PS.

 

And one more thing. If anyone replyes with words similar to that: "But you do not understand...." i do not buy it because I do see with my own eyes that this is possible and I know this is a rigth way to do.

 

You can't preach KC and how to be happy to others "karmis" if you on your 3rd divorce and running away from alimonies in 2 other contries.

 

 

 

so what the solution?

[Subala]

PS. this is Subala das post BTW.

[Guest guest]

 

and teach that wife role is to complete her man not to compete.

 

Submission is absence of rebellion.

 

and less than 2% devorce rate is a result.

 

 

Yeah, thats it; it must be the woman's fault.

 

The result of decades of submissive women to unqualifed men is a large cause of the high divorce rate. I know not all men fit this category so I no need to post such replies. Got it.

 

If you really want to solve the problem, each person should stop focuing on the other person (the women) and start focusing on themselves. Add to that, the authorities who wanted to control everyone, so they preached woman must be submissive to men even if he is in maya, and then preached to the men 'control your wife!' (Give up your brians women, you are in the categorie of a pet now.) Therefore they had total control over both genders for a while. However, in time this resulted in divorce and gurukuli abuse. Many children were abused because their mothers had their power taken away. So the real cause of divorce is not unsubmissive women, its unqualified authorities passing it down to men who desire a similar post, and the closest they could get to it was in the home. Doubt me? Ask any gurukuli who was bullied by their father, or ignored by him because they were just an unimportant child.

 

I heard that a few years ago statistics were taken regarding percentages of abused women in ISKCON, and before they were done counting, all ready it was over 50 percent! Its time we start noticing these issues tie together with divorce, cloesly.

 

Amway shamamway. Lets follow Prabhupada's method for real for once. The only reason we turn to these other groups and methods is because we think we tried Prabhuapda's and it failed. But we NEVER tried Prabhupadas. We tried rascaldom.

[Subala]

it is a same thing what Prabhupada saying:

 

husband and wife TOGETHER preaching, chanting, worshipping.

 

If you ask me what is the problem with divorce. I will tell you 3 reasons

 

1. Husband does to work one way - wife going her way on 2 different jobs and see each other and talk to kids only during commercial breaks while watching TV.

 

2. Not enough money comming to household. Because husband is a WHIMP (in many cases) who reads and quotes how wife must serve the husband and meanwhile sends her to JOB from 8-5 and himself not generating income to support family.

 

3. And of course spiritual differences... i'm not getting into it.

 

 

If husband is a WHIMP this forces ladies feeling insecure have to take charge of temples and income in family and managment. From here comes undless debates on women rigths etc.....

 

But a root cause is man and being head of household he need to zip it from a front not from a side. Provide for family raise children in KC and be responsible.

 

 

 

- ys Subala das

 

PS. plz don't take my word WHIMP offensivly. I can't find more appropriate word. Prabhupada said - you make a choice and STICK WITH IT. don't be chanchala. I think it is comming from letter to one devotee who was between decisions about his asrama.

[Narayanidd]

My dear spirit souls,

 

ISKCON has the same problem most "western" countries have when it comes to divorce. More than 50% of the populace is divorced. What I have noticed as a main factor is there is no respect for each other.

 

As vaisnavas we should know better. We are spirit souls. A marriage should be based on respect for this spiritsoul that you have chosen to spend your life with. When you get married you take responsibility for anothers material, and more importantly, SPIRITUAL well being. A marriage is a team effort in which you help each other back to Godhead.

 

I know we are in the material world and there will always be material desires and problems to deal with. The only thing I can say there is, be very careful and selective about who you marry.

 

Your servant,

Narayani

[theist]

What syncronicity! I just this minute finished watching a movie, Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor in Shakespears The Taming of The Shrew.

 

This movie should be required viewing before any marriage is entered onto.

 

The last part of the last scene is so telling and funny.

 

I am being somewhat serious. Don't bother throwing pots as I'm safe behind this screen.

[theist]

I should add an addendum to my previous post so as to not upset anyone's mind.

 

At the end of the play the shrew is tamed before her husband and becomes totally submissive. Such a transformation. The husband is well pleased with his tamed wife. As they leave the crowded hall she is far ahead of him and he is calling after her as he pushes his way through the crowd.

 

In other words she tamed him as well by her submissive behavior. Sooo funny and true.

[gHari]

And before taking sannyasa, one need view that same couple in "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf".

 

 

[theist]

saw it but I'll check it out when it comes around again.

 

Knowledge is everywhere.

[Guest guest]

i also think sexual problems are really important in the couples. false renunciation, sexual problems is really important, what do you think about that ?

[Guest guest]

 

it is a same thing what Prabhupada saying:

 

husband and wife TOGETHER preaching, chanting, worshipping.

 

If you ask me what is the problem with divorce. I will tell you 3 reasons

 

 

Both sides say they are doing what Prabhupada said.

 

You are presenting submission to a husband as if he is as pure as Prabhupada expected. Under such circumstances it might have worked. But most men marry for sex first, relationship? Maybe, maybe not. Position and power is more important on that list.

 

I am not an advocate of divorce. I will also not close my eyes and pretend the countless abuses of children (and women) was not the result of such philosophies. Yet I see post after post, men WANTING submissive wives (to serve their senses of course). And most of them, unmarried or in a miserable marriage because they STILL don't know HOW to be married. Therefore, false ego continues to go before reality and the taking of good advice. I won't bother posting other points Prabhupada said. Your mind is made up.

 

Countless men who believed exactly as you do are now divorced. So if you are genuinely trying to prepare and avoid divorce, I would suggest to stop seeing it only one sided, but obviously that's not goning to happen. Good luck and don't say you haven't been warned.

[Bhaktavasya]

I can only speak from what I observed and experienced while I was in ISKCON, 20 years ago.

 

1. The men and women got married without hardly knowing each other, let alone having mutual affection for each other. Seldom were their astrological charts done to see if they were compatible.

 

2. Many men (although not in every case)admitted up front that thet got married because they wanted to have sex, while maintaining a repulsive attitude towards sex so that the whole 'intimate act' became a source of resentment for the men ("I'm falling down because of her")and something the women tried to avoid...at their peril.

 

3. Although the Scriptures teach that one should never cause pain to another living being, wife-beating was never discouraged or preached against. A wife was the property of the husband and if she decided, for example, to go for a walk without his permission he was within his rights to drag her back in by the hair and if they happened to be living outside the temple property, beat her with his fists and feet in front of the children while screaming at her for being 'unsubmissive' to him. Whackos as well as great souls came to Prabhupad for shelter.

Some of the whackos got married to Krishna's women, and no self respecting devotee of Krishna is going to stick around and take that for a lifetime. Nor would she expose her children any further to violent and insulting behaviour to prove her chastity, when real chastity is being faithful and submissive to Krishna and not some immature, mentally deranged male whose only knowledge of scripture could be found in the 'sexist quotes' section.

 

 

3. Some men and women actually were gay and were happier in their respective brahmacari and brahmacarini ashrams (free-flowing love without any sexual desire or improprieties) and were 'submissive' to institutionally arranged marriages. The ones I know of did part as friends and always did and still do have respect for each other.

 

4. Krishna's fault. He's the supreme home-wrecker of all times. "Give up your mundane husband or wife and come dance with me!" he said to us (who were at the right listening post)and some of us walked out the door (if we were being prevented from thinking of Krishna) and never looked back. And when we did many, many years later we realized that we never should have got married to so and so in the first place.

 

We excelled in how to have an unsuccessful marriage. Think of it as a sacrifice so that future generations of Krishna's devotees will avoid making the same mistakes.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Indeed, it is a very interesting question: if Amway and ISKCON is teaching the same values about family life, why in Amway case it works but in ISKCON it is a disaster?

 

I guess that family values are deeply ingrained into consciousness during the childhood. That means that if your parents' family life had been problematic then it is very likely that your own marriage will end with divorce as well. Considering that ISKCON was joined, at least in USA, mostly by social dropouts, hippies or persons otherwise dissillusioned with social situation, the divorce rate in ISKCON is not surprising. It takes much more to create a stable marriage than to become a devotee, or even temporarily follow 4 regs.

 

But Subala is right that success of ISKCON preaching can also be evaluated by stability of family life of its members because it is what most people do and require, i.e., get married.

 

karuna

[stonehearted]

My wife and I celebrated the 30th anniversary a couple of months ago. Based on my experience, I'd like o echo the advice Narayani gave earlier.

 

To that I'd like to add a couple of practical tips. What's essential is a sense of commitment, the same kind of commitment that's necessary for a good relationship with the spiritual master. Look: it's not always going to be easy, and it's not always going to be fun. That means you have to anticipate trouble. As Narayani says, it's work sometimes. Commitment comes more easily when there's love (not the initial she's-the-most-beautiful-girl-in-the-world kind of love, but mor mature love based on respect and caring), and the love will be more stable when we keep Krishna the center of all activities.

 

Another tip is to avoid like the plague marriage advice from institutionalized celibates who have either never been married or were never able to make a marriage work (this should pretty much cover 99.44 % of celibate men in ISKCON). My observation is that ISKCON's "family values" are at best shizophrenic. I won't go into the details; those of you who have experienced this know what I'm talking about.

 

In '97, my older daughter went to India for the ISKCON Gaura-Purnima festival. She was selected as a "gurukuli" representative in a workshop on community development. As part of the workshop, they broke out into groups to develop lists of necessary elements for developing Krishna conscoius communities. When they got back together, they found that every breakout group had the same #1 item: stable families--the hardest thing to find.

 

[Subala]

What we need is more couples like "Stonehearted" prabhu described.

 

YES we spiritual movement, YES we want benefit the society, YES to many good things. And then someone comes to us and tells us - you convinced me that KC is the goal of life. 1st thing they see.... I won't go into that.

 

You do what you preach. Not preach what to do.

 

All this things we will correct in due course of time. We will establish Varnasrama dharma in this world in due course of time. But who will stand up and take a creadit?

 

Yah and reg. giving advises about marriage:

 

if you divorced or never married... and if i'm deciding to get married and seaching for advise...

 

I DON'T WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING YOU KNOW

(even if you are the devootee)

 

why?

 

Because I may end up like you....

 

People who quailfied to teach about different asramas - the once who been there done that sucessfully.

 

If you want your wife to be nice - what you do - bring her around lady who has nice relationship with her husband and she will learn by example. (same with men)

 

association is a key. anyway that was the whole point.

 

association is a key.

 

yanti devan vrata devan

 

 

 

 

[Subala]

You want to be renounced - associate with renounced people.

you want to be rich - associate with rich people

poor with poor people

you want easy life - you associate with drunkards

you want cheat yoru way through - Krishna send you cheaters as well...

 

 

 

it is all about sadhu sanga....

 

Srimad-Bhägavatam 5.5.2

Boston, April 28, 1969

 

"And at least if one percent of the whole population becomes Kåñëa conscious, the whole world will be a different world. There will be..., uh... The world itself will become kingdom of God. Of course, we cannot expect that everyone will accept this philosophy, but we are trying. If some percentage of the population takes this movement seriously, the face of the world will be changed."

[stonehearted]

I originally intended to use "institutionalized renunciates," not "celibates," but lost the word as I composed. Part of the distinction may be that many family men and women are celibate, in the sense that they're not sexually active, whether or not they are controlled by any institution. My barb was specifically aimed at the sannyasis and brahmacharis, young and old, who have no successful, long-term experience at managing families but who have the gall to give anyone advice on how to conduct their family life, beyond such broad principles as keeping Krishna in the center.

[Ruptor]

You've put on so much weight, man! I see they're feeding you well there... How is life in Potomac? What have you been up to lately? ;-)

[Ruptor]

<font color="blue">Thanks for the post! Nice idea. Here's what I have to say to that:

 

I can only speak from what I have observed and experienced so far in this world mainly OUTSIDE of ISKCON in the past 30 years.

 

The following is the 6 best reasons why the DIVORCE rate OUTSIDE of ISKCON is so LOW:

 

6. The men and women get married without hardly knowing each other, only having some sexual attraction for each other. Almost never are their astrological charts done to see if they are compatible.

 

5. Rarely men admit up front that the only reason thet get married is because they want to have sex. They maintain a cool attitude towards sex to make getting their woman in bed easier.

 

4. Who gives a dime about religious scriptures???

 

3. Some men and women are gay (as in homosexual, not as in fun-loving) and are happier being "single" screwing their own kind or swinging around in the company of their partners.

 

2. Of course, anything goes wrong - blame it on God. Yep. He sure is the supreme home-wrecker of all times.

 

1. Who is stupid enough to get married these days anyway??? Normal people all have their boyfriends and girlfriends, have sex, break up, find themselves another partner... until you have an accident and then you're in trouble. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

/images/graemlins/wink.gif Suggestion: Wanna compare the DIVORCE rate in ISKCON with the BREAK UP rate OUTSIDE?</font color> /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

PS: A note for the USAsians: it was irony, you know... a joke, as in sad humour... /images/graemlins/confused.gif Anyway, no need to kill me for it. Kill my ex-wife, her girlfriend and everyone else glorifying sexuality! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Subala]

Is it you devaki?

 

Right now i'm sitting and thinking - OMG. Kali yuga. What a crazy place to be..... And this is just a begining.

 

I wonder if we can compare the present state of ISKCON right now with a Devotee community during Lord Chaitanya age.

 

My point is Every day of brahma on 28th maha-yuga Lord Chaitanya comes and there is ISKCON 500 years later in some form or other. Do they have same things like we have or it is different?

 

I say 500 years from now what would devotees remember? how one sanyasi run away with a girl friend of another devotee or they will remember Prabhupada! And they say - Prabhupada had thousands of disciples! And one of them Initiated one low born taxi guy and he became a vaisnava and he initiated somebody and in his turn he initiated thausands - .... blah blah ... and this is why we sitting here in Mayapur - all of us 150.000 gaudia IKSCON devotees and because of them we meet here every 3 months for kirtan etc....

 

this is that they will remember - there were fall downs i bet in Lord Chaitanya times and his own servant almost fell to some prostitutes on His south india tour. Bhatta-haris?

 

may be comparing to Lord Chaitanya times we doing great! Who knows? Time will show.

 

Worse case is to be pessimist in Krishna Consciousness. heh

 

 

PS. I need to use photo shop to be in shape i think...

[theist]

I kept wondering if that was a picture of Bill Clinton. Glad to know its not.

[Subala]

bleh