laws of manu

[mirco]

Namaste folks

 

Can anyone explain to me what Nietzsches relationship was with the "laws of manu" was he in love with this work or did he despised it, somehow I cannot seem to figure that out.

 

How can one justify "the laws of manu" while the punishment aginst low-caste and outcast are ten times worse than those of higher castes?

 

And again while low-caste may have been hindus by birth then why should it then be more difficult for them to embrace all aspect of the hindu culture, while westernes they just can step in and having no caste whatsoever and still be reagared as equal to a brahmin.

[Guest guest]

Glad you brought this up. This policitical science of manu is extremely important to varnasrama dharma and the welfare of society. Unfortunately, the English sources for these texts seem to be non-existent to scarce. I'd love to know where I can learn more.

 

I can't answer your questions. I'm totally ignorant of the first part, though I'm very interested.

 

I'll probably take the heat for commenting on the last.

 

Why should it be more difficult for the low-caste to embrace all aspect of Hindu culture, while westerners... ?

 

There are all kinds of bigots and class warfare; between the rich, between races, between ideological groups. It's a fact of life that we tend to be disgusted at those we deem far below us. The mundane aspects of varnasrama-dharma are no different. When you are fighting to be accepted, synthesis is but a dream.

 

Also, people taking such birth are assumed to have lower qualities and lacking refinement. It is practically seen that they are obsessed with the body. Unfortunately, the caste system is supposed to be designed by individual merit and not by birth. If that is done, then guess who the sudras are?

 

Prabhupada called us all sudras. (And I don't think he was being flippant). The westerners were also rejected in India for similar reasons as the sudras and outcaste because they were viewed in a similar light (for good reason I'm sure). It is only by Prabhupada's influence that the Americans were accepted on the strength of Prabhupada's inner eye.

 

Practically, when you look at what the westerners are doing left to their own devices in Prabhupada's abscence, sudras is a better definition that brahmana, guru, etc.

 

Please forgive my offenses all. I am just making a frank observation here. Of course, I am not doing as well as most of you.

 

Guess Guest

[Guest guest]

manu smriti never was an official law book.

 

however, varnasrama was malpracticed for a long time,

and that is unfortunate.

 

things are changing/ have changed now.

therefore there is no need to talk about

manu smrti in reference to varnasrama.

 

the need is to help hindus to undersand vrnasrama correclty and pracitce it correctly.

 

one has to think what the vedic people's problem is now,

and how to solve it.

 

jai sri krishna!

 

[theist]

Thank you.

 

Actually the life I was living was below the human level as I now understand it. I've never been his disciple but his teaching has given me a big step up in life and the vision of what the eternal goal looks like.

 

I don't see how varnashram-dharma is going to be relevant to this present age. At least not in any formal sense. I think its enough to live a simple honest life in accord with your nature. Even finding that is difficult. Compromising is often necessary. Take a brahman for example. Intellectual by nature. Presently his skill is being exploited by the vaishyas and fallen ksatriyas. His mind and intelligence wrapped up in nonsense projects all day. It might be better for him to mow lawns or clean offices at night so that he can keep his mind free for contemplating the self and the Superself.

[Guest guest]

Yeah man. Even having some theoretical knowledge and knowing the standards even if we can't follow them is salve for so many material maladies.

 

Actually, many of us have succeeded in being vegetarian and refraining from gross sinful prinicples. And that with our interest in Krsna, should save us from the darkest hells. We indeed have much to be thankful for.

 

I see varnashram-dharma, together with Manu's laws, eternally relevent. It is a system of religious science. True for all times and places. I think knowing these things is very relevent to aligning society with spiritual pursuit, just like knowing the principles behind vegetarianism slowly transformed us into hopefully something more mellow.

 

Varnashram-dharma is simple. It is not over-burdened with bureacracy and moleculamania or the investment of life's crucial energy in material activities. It sees material activities as a way to maintain the body and liberate the soul. And it includes the all-important spiritual orders of progress.

 

Service is our dharma. Varnashram-dharma shows how all of society can engage in this service. It is an essential part of the picture. I think we are aimless without it.

 

Why did Prabhupada bother to explain all this and why did he want self-sustaining communities on this model?

 

Guess Guest

[stonehearted]

I've read several places where Srila Prabhupada seemed to very seriously question the relevance of Manu-samhita. As I remember, he stated quite palinly that we would never be able to follow it. (However, I did get some pleasure hearing about the prescribed punishment for child molesters.)

 

Guess Guest wrote: Varnashram-dharma is simple. It is not over-burdened with bureacracy and moleculamania or the investment of life's crucial energy in material activities. It sees material activities as a way to maintain the body and liberate the soul. And it includes the all-important spiritual orders of progress.

 

Service is our dharma. Varnashram-dharma shows how all of society can engage in this service. It is an essential part of the picture. I think we are aimless without it.

 

B: I think both you and theist have a good handle on the essence of varnashrama-dharma: understanding what kind of work you're meant for and doing it with an eye to giving pleasure to the Lord (samsiddhir hari-toshanam). Beyond that, I have yet to find anyone who has a real clue about implementing a formal stucture. So many have had ideas, and they've all pretty much flopped. Hell, ISKCON can't even figure out how to take care of children, women, cows, and older folks.

 

Amnd the self-sustaining rural varnashram communities? What a wonderful idea, and how many we hace seen come and go. Like Bhatkivinoda, Srila Prabhupada gave us a vision big enough for generations of focused endeavor.

 

Guess, I love that word: moleculamania! Did you coin that, or boorow it from somewehere?

[Guest guest]

... through ethics... and metaphysics supports ethics which in turn are supported by spirit.

 

I've read several places where Srila Prabhupada seemed to very seriously question the relevance of Manu-samhita. As I remember, he stated quite palinly that we would never be able to follow it.

 

... Well, my use of Prabhupada philosophy is well known. I'd like you to produce these passages you refer to above so i can see the context of the statements.

 

... I might add that we also couldn't follow chanting 64 rounds or even 32, as well as so many other things. Prabhupada made adjustments, but he did so with respect to the vaisnava standards and ettiquitte.

 

 

Beyond that, I have yet to find anyone who has a real clue about implementing a formal stucture.

 

... This will go a long way toward such a goal (and you know it's true). Require that the damn politicians do their job and personally manifest some physical prowess and martial skill on the battlefield in the business of protecting citizens. If the citizens can be convinced of this point to the degreee that they require it of the leaders, then so much hypocrisy and . will be automatically adjusted.. like hitting a key on your computer keyboard and seeing the sentence rags all smooth out.

 

Hell, ISKCON can't even figure out how to take care of children, women, cows, and older folks.

 

... We can't follow our own advice.

 

And the self-sustaining rural varnashram communities? What a wonderful idea, and how many we hace seen come and go. Like Bhatkivinoda, Srila Prabhupada gave us a vision big enough for generations of focused endeavor.

 

... The faults are there with us. But we have to see what can be achieved when it is done properly. Anything else is trouble.

 

Guess, I love that word: moleculamania! Did you coin that, or boorow it from somewehere?

 

... Yeah, great term. I agree. It was borrowed... or possibly stolen. (I don't think I'll ever return it.)

 

I heard it used in reference to the scientist contemplating matter.

 

Guess Guest

[stonehearted]

Guess: [Here quoting Babhru] I've read several places where Srila Prabhupada seemed to very seriously question the relevance of Manu-samhita. As I remember, he stated quite palinly that we would never be able to follow it.

 

... Well, my use of Prabhupada philosophy is well known. I'd like you to produce these passages you refer to above so i can see the context of the statements.

 

Your request is certainly reasonable and fair. A quick VedaBase search hasn't turned up what I remember reading. Indeed, Srila Prabhupada cites Ms. many times (my quick search yielded about 140 hits). The closest I can find to what I remembered was this: "Therefore in response to the inquiries of Pariksit Maharaja, Sukadeva Gosvami, his guru, could have immediately explained the principle of bhakti, but to test Pariksit Maharaja's intelligence, he first prescribed atonement according to karma-kanda, the path of fruitive activities. For karma-kanda there are eighty authorized scriptures, such as Manu-samhita, which are known as dharma-sastras. In these scriptures one is advised to counteract his sinful acts by performing other types of fruitive action. This was the path first recommended by Sukadeva Gosvami to Maharaja Pariksit, and actually it is a fact that one who does not take to devotional service must follow the decision of these scriptures by performing pious acts to counteract his impious acts. This is known as atonement" (SB 6.1.7, purport). Here he says that the directions of Manu-samhita apply to the practices of karma kanda, not bhakti; he also says, however, that those who won't follow bhakti should be guided by the principles of Ms. In several places he mentions the principles of Manu-samhita, which may open a case for a distinction between principles and details. But, since I haven't yet found support for my earlier asssertions, I won't press this any further here.

 

A Google search didn't yield any results for moleculamania, so you have the credit for that one so far, at least in my book.

 

 

 

[stonehearted]

I forgot to respond to these:

 

G:[babhru] Hell, ISKCON can't even figure out how to take care of children, women, cows, and older folks.

 

... We can't follow our own advice

 

B: I'd say it more plainly: we can't practice what we preach. Big problem.

 

G: And the self-sustaining rural varnashram communities? What a wonderful idea, and how many we hace seen come and go. Like Bhatkivinoda, Srila Prabhupada gave us a vision big enough for generations of focused endeavor.

 

... The faults are there with us. But we have to see what can be achieved when it is done properly. Anything else is trouble.

 

B: Yep--someone has to take the trouble to try. I think there have been--and remain--some notable, laudable efforts. I know there are devotee families here and there who have a couple of cows and maybe even work oxen. Here on the Big Island we have a devotee named Dayal Chandra who has several dozen cows he protects. Then there are project like Balabhadra and Chaya-devi's ISCOWP, which they created as a model project for educating people in all aspects of cow protection.

 

As far as women, children, and older folks go, we still pretty much stike out. I know that in San Diego there are two ladies in their 80's, disciples of Srila Prabhupada, who have health problems but who find even getting to the temple or getting the temple to send someone to visit them very difficult. The community should ideally create a place very close to the temple where they can live with dignity and associate with devotees and serve the mission. Grrr!

[Guest guest]

 

You can always use Prabhupada quotes or the scriptures or anything to justify what you say or do. Prabhupada would contradict himself as we all do... or not really so much a contradiction as the context of what is presented. We probably won't agree on what was said or meant without the "proof".

 

I think I pretty much agree with you. I'm just putting emphasis let's say on the need to educate society.

 

We can't follow our own advice or rise to the platform of soul - even though we "know" these spiritual things are there. (So much evidence for sudra mentality). But such knowledge is still the basis for action and is authoritative.

 

Yes, the manu-samhita may not be relevant to "transcendental" devotees and so on, but I see the need for say government people to know it well. It seems integral with varnash-dharma and how all of society should function.

 

Another angle: Many people simple cannot understand the Gita when they read it. It goes right over their head. Yet, they can appreciate the Mahabharata. In this exposure, they assimilate so many religious priniciples indirectly.

 

Similarly, all of us have trouble truly transcending the world. We are material addicts contemplating our next fix. Yet our intelligence can readily understand the scientific cause and effect that perhaps the Manu-samhita presents. I think it a powerful tool just like I think it very necessarly to understand all the material and spiritual orders of varnasram-dharma.

 

For example, we know the basic material activities of a kysutria, but we are not familiar with the day-to-day spiritual principles associated with ettiquette and the mind. The more we understand these things, the better vision we develop.

 

In any case, it is scripture.

 

Guess Guest