What is "joining the movement"?

[Guruvani]

Why did Srila Prabhupada always speak in terms of "joining the movement", "joining the society", "joining ISKCON" etc. etc. instead of becoming a disciple? Was there anything unique or otherwise implied by his terminology?

Was Srila Prabhupada indicating an alternative to the orthodox system of the direct guru-disciple relationship in reference to his ISKCON system of a GBC authority?

 

Also, is not a GBC authority incompatible with the diksha guru system in ISKCON? How can a diksha guru be outranked by a GBC and still retain his spiritual authority as guru? Did Srila Prabhupada fabricate a totally incongruent system of GBC controlled gurus? Would Srila Prabhupada ever suggest that a genuine guru be under the control of a governing body? Are ISKCON gurus just puppet gurus of the GBC or are they really diksha gurus at all?

Prabhupada said in his books that a spiritual master is not subjected to the advice or criticism of his Godbrothers, so how could he have set up a system of gurus under the control of the GBC? Did Prabhupada contradict himself in the end and authorize a number of gurus who would then be subjected to sanctions and control of the GBC?

[Guest guest]

People in general, especially in this Age of Kali, are enamored by the external energy of Krsna, and they wrongly think that by advancement of material comforts every man will be happy. They have no knowledge that the material or external nature is very strong, for everyone is strongly bound by the stringent laws of material nature. A living entity is happily the part and parcel of the Lord, and thus his natural function is to render immediate service to the Lord. By the spell of illusion one tries to be happy by serving his personal sense gratification in different forms which will never make him happy. Instead of satisfying his own personal material senses, he has to satisfy the senses of the Lord. That is the highest perfection of life. The Lord wants this, and He demands it. One has to understand this central point of Bhagavad-gita. Our Krsna consciousness movement is teaching the whole world this central point, and because we are not polluting the theme of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, anyone seriously interested in deriving benefit by studying the Bhagavad-gita must take help from the Krsna consciousness movement for practical understanding of Bhagavad-gita under the direct guidance of the Lord. We hope, therefore, that people will derive the greatest benefit by studying Bhagavad-gita As It Is as we have presented it here, and if even one man becomes a pure devotee of the Lord, we shall consider our attempt a success.

 

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

12 May, 1971

Sydney, Australia

[stonehearted]

Guruvani writes: "Why did Srila Prabhupada always speak in terms of "joining the movement", "joining the society", "joining ISKCON" etc. etc. instead of becoming a disciple? Was there anything unique or otherwise implied by his terminology?

Was Srila Prabhupada indicating an alternative to the orthodox system of the direct guru-disciple relationship in reference to his ISKCON system of a GBC authority?"

 

I think you may be setting up a false dichotomy here. I don't think there's evidence that he "always" or ever spoke of "joining the movement" instead of becoming a disciple. He encouraged everyone to take up association with devotees and to work cooperatively to advance the teachings of Lord Chaitanya. But he acceped thousands of us as his "duly initiated" disciples. He spoke often of giving harinama and later accepting a candidate as his disciple. When he initiated me, he wrote, "You will be glad to know that I have gladly accepted you as my duly initiated disciple." You'll find the same words in many, many letters to devotees requesting that he accept them as his disciples. And there is a direct guru-disciple relationship. When we had questions, he always encouraged us to consult with other devotees, but he also wrote that he was happy to respond to his disciples' letters. After Goursundar and Siddhasvarupananda closed the temples in Hawaii in 1973, he met privately with my Godbrother Tarun Kanti, my wife Satyaki, and me for almost an hour and a half, although none of us had big positions in the society.

 

As sympathetic as I am to the concerns of those who advocate what has come to be called the "ritvik" position, I have noticed a tendency to overstate the case. You raise good (though hardly new or earthshaking) questions about ISKCON's problems balancing the responsibilities of gurus and GBC members. However, you risk undermining your crdibility in doing so by your apparent ritvik zeal.

 

One thing I've noticed about these forums is that they're full with folks who demand to be heard but are reluctant to hear. I suppose many of my friends here would insist that I include myself in that category. That makes really significant discourse--and intersting conversation--difficult.

[stonehearted]

The phrase you've boldfaced expresses hope for the future, hope for the result of offereing Bhagavad-gita As It Is to the world. The purpose for your posting this quotation is unclear. If you mean to suggest that someone has fulfilled that hope, who would you suggest it is? If you mean to suggest that no on has as yet, Srila Prabhupada may be likely to ask why that one man (or woman) isn't you.

[Guest guest]

Its simple really:

 

A pure Devotee is the movement of Lord Caitanya and to join

his association is desireable. Period

 

Secondly if one is following AC bhativedanta Swami's teaching He \ She is ISKCON not the external building and corperations.

 

Thirdly a pure devotee can say as he like because his motivation is to serve his Guru and Krisna and help the souls who take shelter of him in any way that he can. If a association is required - so be it.

 

AlaNath

[Guest guest]

It's simple really:

 

A pure Devotee is the movement of Lord Caitanya and to join

His association is desirable. Period

 

Secondly, if one is following AC Bhaktivedanta Swami's teachings He \ She is ISKCON not the external building and corporations.

 

Thirdly, a pure devotee can say as he likes because his motivation is pure. His service is to Guru and Krishna and helping the souls who take shelter of him in any way that he can. If an association is required - so be it.

 

AlaNath

 

[Guest guest]

do any one or more of the following:

 

- do krishna bhakti

- preach krishna bhakti when you know it well and correctly and if you know how to preach.

 

jai sri krishna!

 

[Guruvani]

Let me present some of Prabhupada's own words to explain my point:

NOD text 5 purport-

Everyone is invited to join this movement, sit with us, take prasäda and hear about Krsna. When we see that someone is actually interested in Krsna consciousness and wants to be initiated, we accept him as a disciple for the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. When a neophyte devotee is actually initiated and engaged in devotional service by the orders of the spiritual master, he should be accepted immediately as a bona fide Vaishnava, and obeisances should be offered unto him.

[Guruvani]

Here is another reference from NOD text 7 purport:

 

The Krsna consciousness movement is especially meant for creating an atmosphere in which people can take to the chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra. One must begin with faith, and when this faith is increased by chanting, a person can become a member of the Society.

[Guruvani]

In this quote Prabhupada calls his disciples "members of the society" three times in one paragraph. This same theme he repeats over and over and over again hundreds of times throughout his books and lecture, letters etc.

 

NOD text 4 purport:

 

The members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness invite the Society’s members and supporters to dine with them when they hold love feasts in all their branches every Sunday. Many interested people come to honor prasäda, and whenever possible they invite members of the Society to their homes and feed them sumptuously with prasäda. In this way both the members of the Society and the general public are benefited.

[stonehearted]

I understand your point; however, the quotations you present do not support the dichotomy you suggest in the opening paragraph of this thread's opening text.

 

I'm not going to post excerpts from every letter in which Srila Prabhupada writes that he gladly accepts someone as his duly initiated disciple, or where he speaks in lectures of initiating someone as his disciple. You know where they are. He created a society whose purposes I've posted on another thread and initiated thousands of disciples, whom he personally and repeatedly exhorted to become qualified to take up the work of expanding the society of devotees themselves, including initiating disciples. Even in Srila Prabhpada's manifest presence, the society consisted of initiated disciples and those who had other realtionships with ISKCON.

[Guruvani]

NOD text two purport:

 

"Similarly, we have established the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to give people an opportunity to associate with those who have not forgotten Krsna. This spiritual association offered by our ISKCON movement is increasing day by day. Many people from different parts of the world are joining this Society to awaken their dormant Krsna consciousness."

[Guruvani]

<font color="blue"> I think that Prabhupada had a certain plan that he wanted executed in ISKCON in terms of the quotes I have just presented and many hundreds more I have not.

He also gave general instructions about the concept of parampara and becoming spiritual master. A spiritual master is not the master of others rather he is the master of spiritual practice.

Prabhupada's books are more general instructions and perfectly legitimate, however his directions to the GBC and the the ISKCON management of temple presidents etc. was much more specific and relevant to the actual situation in the movement. If ISKCON failed, Prabhupada had a back-up to the back-up; his generalized instructions to be taken up if his specific directions to the GBC became disobeyed.

What Prabhupada taught in his books were general principles. What he instructed the GBC and his deputies was specific to ISKCON as an organization. In the event ISKCON failed to execute these specific instructions, his generalized directions in his books would then become the only resort.

However, we should not neglect specific, direct and obvious instructions of Srila Prabhupada in favor of the more general, generic directions.

ISKCON was a multi-million dollar organization and none of the by-laws, corperate documents or legal papers were published in Prabhupada's books, though all this material is very much relevant to specific matters that Srila Prabhupada gave instructions about.

We cannot ignore the reality of ISKCON as being a very great asset of Srila Prabhupada and all his directions and instructions about the managment and workings of ISKCON are very much relevant and pertinent to case specific issues.

 

None of Prabhupada's directions about the managing and maintaining of ISKCON are dealt with in his books, though these issues are very important aspects of Prabhupada's instructions for his disciples. If we neglect or loose ISKCON and all it's implications then the general, generic advice in the books are all we have to go by. As long as ISKCON exists in some form, all of Srila Prabhupada's directions and instructions regarding the management of ISKCON are more important than the general directions given in his books.

It is possible to use Prabhupada's books to disobey his direct, specific instructions regarding ISKCON, initiation, the GBC authority etc. However, disobeying Prabhupada's specific orders under the pretext of following his books is a most unfortunate abuse of the books when we have his specific detailed instructions to the GBC as to how ISKCON was to be managed.

His last instruction to the GBC before he left was;

"Don't change anything after I am gone"

 

What part of "don't change anything" is up for debate and alteration? What part of "don't change anything" is it that we don't understand? When we change anything Prabhupada set up in ISKCON we are violating his orders and thereby bringing ruination upon the movement. Ruination has taken a great toll on ISKCON. Does following Prabhupada's orders cause ruination? Or, is disobeying him the cause of ISKCON's unfortunate destruction?

ISKCON is but a skeleton of it's former greatness. Would that have happened if the leadership of ISKCON obeyed Prabhupada to "don't change ANYTHING after I am gone"?

Following Prabhupada would have brought untold success and prosperity upon ISKCON. Disobeying him has reduced ISKCON to a pathetic imitation of the true ISKCON of Srila Prabhupada. </font color>

 

[AncientMariner]

 

 

 

So what happens to ISKCON now? I am a person that has never had any association with ISKCON but I was fortunate enough to come across Srila Prabhupada's books and as a result I now chant the Hare Krishna mantra but I know virtually nothing about ISKCON as an organization.

[Guruvani]

<font color="red"> ISKCON has had great, great turmoil and catastrophe wreaked upon it since the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada. It is a very complicated matter for new devotees to try and understand ISKCON. There are many nice devotees in ISKCON though. If you are sincere in Krishna consciousness, Krishna will help you find your way through all the turmoil.

The main thing is to cultivate the knowledge in Prabhupada's books, chant Hare Krishna and seek out some nice devotees to help you learn things that are important but are not in the books. Practically speaking you should try to find out the nearest temple to you and start attending the programs and associating with the devotees. You will get much help from them.

I personally would not recommend taking initiation for a few years until you find a very advanced devotee whom you feel much great appreciation for. Don't just jump in and take initiation from anybody. Make sure this person has your utmost respect and reverance. If you ever meet such a devotee who captures your heart with his dedication and commitment, then you follow your heart and accept initiation from that person whom you admire over all other devotees.

This is about the best advice I can give. There are many options available and times and minds change, so be very careful to accept anyone as your spiritual master.

Krishna will arrange for you to meet the right devotee.

There is also the Hare Krishna Society headquartered in California and you might want to look into their program of intiating devotees on behalf of Srila Prabhupada.

Yashodanandana Prabhu has performed initiations on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and I personally recommend that you find some sincere disciple of Srila Prabhupada who will intiate you on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and then Prabhupada will be your rightful spiritual master as he is already. Prabhupada is your real guru. His books have brought you to Krishna consciousness. Don't settle for anything less. </font color>

 

[gHari]

There was no need to play games. You think you have something to say. Just say it. We aren't morons.

 

If you want to be guruvani, then just quote Srila Prabhupada directly. Then it will be guru vani. Right now every stretched statement uttered is followed by questions and disbelief; in no one's mind is it guru vani at all. It's just rhetoric and politics.

 

Guru vani and guru are one.

[Guruvani]

I don't know what gave you the idea that I am playing games.

I am quite serious and sincere about everything I have written that you fault me for.

I don't have time to play games fella. You don't know me. I am a very serious and somber person and playing games is not my style.

Maybe something I said rubbed you the wrong way - maybe it hit a nerve, but I am certainly not playing games with anybody in this forum.

Attacking me personally over my viewpoints is a little selfish and narrow if you ask me.

The only game playing that is going on here is you trying to pin the tail on the donkey.

[gHari]

<blockquote>"I think that Prabhupada had a certain plan that he wanted executed in ISKCON in terms of the quotes I have just presented and many hundreds more I have not."</blockquote>

 

Just say it. Don't pretend to ask questions.

[Guruvani]

This line of questioning like:

 

"What part of "don't change anything" is up for debate and alteration? What part of "don't change anything" is it that we don't understand? When we change anything Prabhupada set up in ISKCON we are violating his orders and thereby bringing ruination upon the movement. Ruination has taken a great toll on ISKCON. Does following Prabhupada's orders cause ruination? Or, is disobeying him the cause of ISKCON's unfortunate destruction?"

 

is part of the process of deductive reasoning. It is meant to help myself and others come to a logical conclusion. It is how we reach an understanding on issues and matters that concern us.

This line of questioning is used frequently within our own thought processes and helps us come to rational, reasonable conclusions about important questions facing us.