One must approach a living 'Current link' to join the parampara

[Guest guest]

One must approach a living 'Current link' to join the parampara

by Rama Kesava das

 

Posted June 18, 2003

 

Dandavats. I would like to reply to Deepak Vohra's recent article. I believe he has misunderstood the import of Srila Prabhupada's words in Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.7 purport: "one should approach the current link, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession."

 

The words 'current link' clearly mean that we must approach a living guru, a sadhu, with meekness and submission (tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya), as outlined by Sri Bhagavan Krsna in Bhagavad-gita 4.34. Can Srila Prabhupada be that link, even though he has passed into the nitya-lila?

 

Ramagopal Uppaluri says "However, some future devotee may propose Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja as his 'Prominent Link'. Mastering the words of Bhagavad-gita, one could argue that Sri Krsna Himself is his 'Prominent Link'. Sri Krsna has been our guru (and so-called 'Prominent Link' in English word jugglery) residing in our heart as Paramatma and guiding us every day."

 

Deepak Vohra has stubbornly, calculatedly and deliberately misunderstood Ramagopal's intent here. He is certainly not suggesting that we do such an obtuse thing, but rather illustrating how overexercising the intellect could allow us to take rtvikism to the extreme, jumping over Guru and Gauranga, and without a shred of humility try to get to Krsna directly -- something which is impossible. Without the mercy of Guru or Gauranga nothing can be achieved.

 

However, Srila Prabhupada cannot be the current link, any more than Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaja can, or any of his disciples who have entered into the nitya-lila. It is time for devotees to go beyond their fears and disappointment at Srila Prabhupada's physical disappearance.

 

To call Srila Prabhupada the 'current link' would be equally as offensive as designating Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Narottama das Thakur or the Six Goswamis. It would also be in direct violation of the sastras. To support the ritvik heresy is simply tantamount to killing off Sri Guru for future Gaudiya Vaisnavas -- as more and more of those who knew, heard and spoke with Srila Prabhupada and other prominent Gaudiya acaryas themselves pass from the scene.

 

We must not let sentiment overrule siddhanta: let us not give in to the apotheosis of Srila Prabhupada, a concept that would have shocked Prabhupada himself, or indeed any humble Vaisnava.

 

Your servant,

Rama Kesava dasa

(a disciple of Swami B.V. Tripurari)

 

 

[theist]

The term current link is used only once by Prabhupada at least according to vedabase. And notice the term "living" does not proceed it.

 

The question can be raised as to what makes one a current link. Is it just having a body and having been officialy initiated or does it refer to an actual uttama-adhikari?

 

If none of Prabhupada's disciples have yet qualified themselves to that level would that mean Srila Prabhupada was still the current link?

 

You decide.

 

Surely current link can't refer to just a chain of bodies. Being a kanistha bhakta when your guru leaves his body doesn't then qualify someone as the next current link. That would be appointed guru by default. Nonsense idea.

 

Here is where current link is used by Prabhupada.

 

------------------------

 

TRANSLATION SB 2.9.7

When he heard the sound, he tried to find the speaker, searching on all sides. But when he was unable to find anyone besides himself, he thought it wise to sit down on his lotus seat firmly and give his attention to the execution of penance, as he was instructed.

 

PURPORT

To achieve success in life, one should follow the example of Lord Brahmä, the first living creature in the beginning of creation. After being initiated by the Supreme Lord to execute tapasya, he was fixed in his determination to do it, and although he could not find anyone besides himself, he could rightly understand that the sound was transmitted by the Lord Himself. Brahmä was the only living being at that time because there was no other creation and none could be found there except himself. In the beginning of the First Canto, in the First Chapter, first verse, of the Çrémad-Bhägavatam, it has already been mentioned that Brahmä was initiated by the Lord from within. The Lord is within every living entity as the Supersoul, and He initiated Brahmä because Brahmä was willing to receive the initiation. The Lord can similarly initiate everyone who is inclined to have it.

 

As already stated, Brahmä is the original spiritual master for the universe, and since he was initiated by the Lord Himself, the message of Çrémad-Bhägavatam is coming down by disciplic succession, and in order to receive the real message of Çrémad-Bhägavatam one should approach the current link, or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession. After being initiated by the proper spiritual master in that chain of succession, one should engage himself in the discharge of tapasya in the execution of devotional service. One should not, however, think himself on the level of Brahmä to be initiated directly by the Lord from inside because in the present age no one can be accepted to be as pure as Brahmä. The post of Brahmä to officiate in the creation of the universe is offered to the most pure living being, and unless one is so qualified one cannot expect to be treated like Brahmäjé directly. But one can have the same facility through unalloyed devotees of the Lord, through scriptural instructions (as revealed in the Bhagavad-gétä and Çrémad-Bhägavatam especially), and also through the bona fide spiritual master available to the sincere soul. The Lord Himself appears as the spiritual master to a person who is sincere in heart about serving the Lord. Therefore the bona fide spiritual master who happens to meet the sincere devotee should be accepted as the most confidential and beloved representative of the Lord. If a person is posted under the guidance of such a bona fide spiritual master, it may be accepted without any doubt that the desiring person has achieved the grace of the Lord.

------------------

 

So let me ask a question. The areas I have highlited appear to contradict each other. How would this be harmonized?

 

Hare Krsna

[gHari]

Theist,

 

Perhaps 'similarly' only refers to 'initiated' and 'willing to receive the initiation'.

 

gHari

[transient]

There is no contradiction because the first:

 

The Lord can similarly initiate everyone who is inclined to have it.

 

speaks of the inherent power of God to do anything.

 

and the second:

 

One should not, however, think himself on the level of Brahmä to be initiated directly by the Lord from inside because in the present age no one can be accepted to be as pure as Brahmä.

 

refers to the proper attitude of the devotee. So a bona fide disciple, who is most humble, would never be inclined to be initiated directly by the Lord. Lord Chaitanya's statement: "I am the servant of the servant of the servant of Krishna" teaches all of us how we should behave.

 

When a person is sincere and desires to know or serve God, Lord Paramatma arranges it so that that person will be able to meet His confidential servant, His external manifestation, who then gives that person an opportunity to be linked up to God by becoming his disciple.

 

This is called Parampara.

[Guest guest]

SRILA PRABHUPADA IS NOT DEAD LIKE YOUR 'MASTER WANT TO TEACH WHOLEEEE WORLD!

 

REMEMBER THAT!

 

SRILA PRABHUPADA SAID ON 9 JULY 1977 3 X ALL OF THEM ARE MY DISCIPELS. ON 14 JULY 1977 HE SAID I AM YOUR SPIRITUAL MASTER WHETER A I AM PHSICAL OR NOT PRESENT JUST LIKE MY GURU MAHARAJ...

 

YOU ARE IN MY HUMBLE OPNION JUST ONE OF THAT MANY BLINDE ENVIOUS SNAKES OF PUTAN'S KENGURU SAMPRADAYA..

 

THAK YOU FOR LISTENING!

 

MIRZA

[stonehearted]

I don't want to be rude, but posts such as this one just bring shame to our whole sampradaya. The all-caps shouting, the terrible spelling, and the nasty sentiments, certainly not at all worthy of anyone claiming to follow Srila Prabhupada, all add up to an embarrassment.

[Krsnanatha]

To never accidentally step on this person's foot.

[stonehearted]

to even avoid glancing his or her way in a way that anyone might misunderstand. Yikes!

[Guest guest]

If one has no faith in Guru certainly he has no faith in Krsna. Sri Krsna says very clearly that "one must approach a bonified Spiritual Master and inquire from him submissively. If one thinks that he himself is qualified to be guru then faithless ness will manifest itself in so many non senseical philosohpies. Have Faith in Krsna's words at least. Krsna will not cheat us. Manifested on this earth there have been self realized souls then -now and in the future, to guide us. It's a matter of sincere desire to know and serve Sri Krsna.

 

If one does not have association of a pure Vaishnav don't blame Sri Krsna and his devotees. Look deep within yourself and you will find the motives of self interest that are disturbing your faith. When you develop a little faith by good association you will begin to hear Pure Krsna Katha and the pure devotee will become obvious to you.

 

Jai Radhe

 

[theist]

That raises the question of what all is meant be the wird approach?

 

How did so many thousands approach Prabhupada while he walked on this earth, even though they had no access to his vapuh?

[I_love_krishna_]

Books speak of the great things that great soul wrote /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist]

In those books I find answers to questions I was to dull to ask.

[Guest guest]

because the authentic spiritual master, beeing a first class pure vaishnava, omnipotent empowered by sri krishna, know the heart of the disciple even if he is at 3039383 km of distance,,, in this way he is completely able to save him and bring him to krsna even if, at our material eyes, he have not seen him but have accepted him by letter, telephone, internet and so on...

 

this only if he's a real pure vaishnava who lives directly krishna and caitanya lilas.... if he's not.... he can live for years in the same house with a disciple, go to hell and bring the unfortunate soul with him

[Guest guest]

"How did so many thousands approach Prabhupada while he walked on this earth, even though they had no access to his vapuh?"

 

Such was the power of his prema-filled vapuh, that it could be felt around the entire globe due to the touch of his lotus feet upon the surface of the earth. I believe everyone who joined at that time, even if they had not yet met Srila Prabhupada in person, had the aspiration to one day approach him, to meet him, and to hear him speak, personally. To view in living color a real live pure devotee of Krishna, a perfect living example of everything which they had read about in the very books which brought them to the Hare Krishna Movement. That aspiration to one day meet Srila Prabhupada in person surely served as an inspiration for many to take up the process of Bhakti with full vigor and dedication.

 

Let me ask you this: During Srila Prabhupada's manifest presence, if you had the option of hearing him give Bhagavatam class at your Temple, or the option of hearing the tape afterwards, (or reading the text and purport directly from the book), which would you choose?

 

Yes, I know, I know, there were many who had that opportunity to personally associate with Srila Prabhupada, who later fell down and committed offenses. And there were many who had very little vapuh association who later became staunch devotees. No one is questioning the potency of Sastra and Srila Prabhupada's powerful purports. Still, if given the chance to hear from him personally, sitting at his lotus feet, being the recipient of his occasional glance upon your soul, feeling the prema emanating from his lotus mouth as he speaks, which would you choose?

 

IMO, it's not a question of vani vs vapuh but rather vapuh vs isolation. Srila Prabhupada travelled the globe 11 times over. He said he did this to enliven his disciples. Why would he do this when his books were already there? Weren't the books more than sufficient to keep the devotees enlivened? Weren't the books nondifferent than Srila Prabhupada? Or is it possible, just possible, that there is something special, most special, about being in the personal presence of a pure devotee such that one who has never experienced it can never understand?

 

Cheyenne

[theist]

T:>"How did so many thousands approach Prabhupada while he walked on this earth, even though they had no access to his vapuh?"<

 

C;>>Such was the power of his prema-filled vapuh, that it could be felt around the entire globe due to the touch of his lotus feet upon the surface of the earth. I believe everyone who joined at that time, even if they had not yet met Srila Prabhupada in person, had the aspiration to one day approach him, to meet him, and to hear him speak, personally.<<

 

This aspiration remains.

 

 

>>To view in living color a real live pure devotee of Krishna, a perfect living example of everything which they had read about in the very books which brought them to the Hare Krishna Movement. That aspiration to one day meet Srila Prabhupada in person surely served as an inspiration for many to take up the process of Bhakti with full vigor and dedication.<<

 

This is how one should approach reading his books even today. I also believe one can meet Srila Prabhupada IN his books while we are in this present body.

 

>>Let me ask you this: During Srila Prabhupada's manifest presence, if you had the option of hearing him give Bhagavatam class at your Temple, or the option of hearing the tape afterwards, (or reading the text and purport directly from the book), which would you choose?<<

 

Well as I have said before if Prabhupada was speaking I would certainly go hear him and listen to the tape afterwards. There is transcendental variety.

 

But a question for you. Which would be preferable, to sit and listen to him lecture in his vapuh manifestation or to hear him lecture via tape while engaged in some form of active service to please him?

 

You see the problem with our attempts at making these distinctions through our mundane minds. i personally can't see that clearly.

 

>>Yes, I know, I know, there were many who had that opportunity to personally associate with Srila Prabhupada, who later fell down and committed offenses. And there were many who had very little vapuh association who later became staunch devotees.<<

 

Well what does that tell you?

 

 

>>No one is questioning the potency of Sastra and Srila Prabhupada's powerful purports. Still, if given the chance to hear from him personally, sitting at his lotus feet, being the recipient of his occasional glance upon your soul, feeling the prema emanating from his lotus mouth as he speaks, which would you choose?<<

 

As above. But surely you are not implying that his merciful glance upon your soul is possible only through the vapuh form. Or his prema for Krsna cannot overtake you as you listen to one of his recorded lectures.

 

>>IMO, it's not a question of vani vs vapuh but rather vapuh vs isolation. Srila Prabhupada travelled the globe 11 times over. He said he did this to enliven his disciples. Why would he do this when his books were already there?<<

 

To further inspire his disciples who were not yet on the level to consistently receive the same from his vani.

 

BTW no one is advocating isolation.

 

 

>>Weren't the books more than sufficient to keep the devotees enlivened?<<

 

Yes, "but blessed are those with ears to hear"

 

>>Weren't the books nondifferent than Srila Prabhupada? Or is it possible, just possible, that there is something special, most special, about being in the personal presence of a pure devotee such that one who has never experienced it can never understand?<<

 

Union vs, spearation? Isn't there union in separtion? Too deep for me. You said its not a question of vani vs. vapuh but that is exactly the point you are trying to make. Why do you consider hearing Prabhupada's presence in his books something less than personal presence?

 

I do know what you are saying however I'm not sure how to apply it to the transcendental plane. It's really over my head.

 

Hare Krsna

 

[Guest guest]

"But a question for you. Which would be preferable, to sit and listen to him lecture in his vapuh manifestation or to hear him lecture via tape while engaged in some form of active service to please him?"

 

I suppose that would depend on the desire of Srila Prabhupada for his disciples, and that may vary from one disciple to the next. Are you suggesting that sitting at Srila Prabhupada's lotus feet and hearing directly from his lotus mouth is inactive service? That one must be moving around physically, mopping floors or whatever, in order to please Srila Prabhupada? I had always thought that hearing and chanting were the first and foremost processes of Bhakti.

 

"I also believe one can meet Srila Prabhupada IN his books while we are in this present body."

 

It's possible, but have you actually done it? Has he appeared before you in his personal form while you were reading? I don't doubt that one can feel the presence of Srila Prabhupada in his books and become greatly enlivened. Still, being that we are personalists, not impersonalists, if given the opportunity, wouldn't you rather hear from him personally? I'm not suggesting that one should sacrifice reading books. Ideally, both should be there. The book Bhagavat and the person Bhagavat.

 

>>Yes, I know, I know, there were many who had that opportunity to personally associate with Srila Prabhupada, who later fell down and committed offenses. And there were many who had very little vapuh association who later became staunch devotees.<<

 

"Well what does that tell you?"

 

Not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that it would have been better to avoid hearing directly from Srila Prabhupada in person and only read his books? There were probably devotees whose adhikara was such that it would have been better had they not had so much association with Srila Prabhupada. It depends on the motivation and faith of the disciple. If the disciple has a tendency to see the Guru as a mortal man, filled with defects, then offenses will be committed. Probably better for such persons to simply stick with reading the books until such time that one's faith matures. Other devotees may have taken advantage of Srila Prabhupada's vapuh for political motives, perhaps even unknowingly in the beginning. Those devotees who had very little association with Srila Prabhupada but who studied his books seriously, many of them fell down as well. Others in this category saw their faith mature, and as they progressed, they hankered for Srila Prabhupada's personal association more and more, thus they made great strides in developing their guru-nistha.

 

"But surely you are not implying that his merciful glance upon your soul is possible only through the vapuh form. Or his prema for Krsna cannot overtake you as you listen to one of his recorded lectures."

 

No, just that I believe it is far more likely that one would actually experience these things while in his personal presence. I am blind, and I was born in the darkness of ignorance. Again, we aren't impersonalists.

 

>>Srila Prabhupada travelled the globe 11 times over. He said he did this to enliven his disciples. Why would he do this when his books were already there?<<

 

"To further inspire his disciples who were not yet on the level to consistently receive the same from his vani."

 

This is a contradiction. If we are following Srila Prabhupada's vani, if we've actually carefully read and studied his books, then we should know the importance of hearing and chanting in the association of pure devotees. Your reply seems to indicate that ideally, everyone should be completely satisfied and enlivened from the books so that there would be no further need for Srila Prabhupada's personal association. Again, that sounds rather impersonal. During Srila Prabhupada's final days, he requested all his disciples to come to Vrindavana to be with him. In person. He could have said "everyone just stay where you are and read my books in separation, don't come see me, I am already in my books." But he didn't.

 

"You said its not a question of vani vs. vapuh but that is exactly the point you are trying to make. Why do you consider hearing Prabhupada's presence in his books something less than personal presence?"

 

I think there is a misunderstanding here, and it's probably my fault for not taking the time to elaborate. It's not a question of vani vs vapuh. I've heard this debate many times before, usually from the ritvik camp. Most of the people I've seen who pound the vani drum don't actually practice what they preach. A healthy dose of pure vapuh association might cure that, however. Such is the potency. And again, if you haven't experienced it, then there's probably nothing I can say that will change your mind. And by the way, in no way am I minimizing the potency of the books. I just feel that the general mood nowadays has been to minimize vapuh, therefore I would like to see a balance, to see the pendulum swing back towards somewhere in the middle. Both vapuh and vani are important.

 

You raised some valid points, prabhu and I hope that I haven't come on too strong in making this reply.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

Cheyenne

[theist]

>>>"But a question for you. Which would be preferable, to sit and listen to him lecture in his vapuh manifestation or to hear him lecture via tape while engaged in some form of active service to please him?"<<<

 

 

>>I suppose that would depend on the desire of Srila Prabhupada for his disciples, and that may vary from one disciple to the next. <<

 

I agree. Certainly I accept hearing as as service. I realize I didn't word my question well. I was thinking that Srila Prabhupada would sometimes send his disciples to out of the way places to preach, which were distant from his vapuh.

 

 

>"I also believe one can meet Srila Prabhupada IN his books while we are in this present body."<

 

>>It's possible, but have you actually done it? Has he appeared before you in his personal form while you were reading?<<

 

Please don't take this as being too harsh, but its none of your business one way or the other. We haven't formed such an intimate relationship where that sort of question would be proper.

 

But in general I would say that he appears in sound. I have never seen Srila Prabhupada. I don't consider him an elderly Bengali man, who walks with a cane that's for sure.

 

 

>>I don't doubt that one can feel the presence of Srila Prabhupada in his books and become greatly enlivened. Still, being that we are personalists, not impersonalists, if given the opportunity, wouldn't you rather hear from him personally?<<

 

If you are hearing his vani how would that be impersonal? Do you think guru is his *phyiscal* form?

 

 

I'm not suggesting that one should sacrifice reading books. Ideally, both should be there. The book Bhagavat and the person Bhagavat.

 

>>Yes, I know, I know, there were many who had that opportunity to personally associate with Srila Prabhupada, who later fell down and committed offenses. And there were many who had very little vapuh association who later became staunch devotees.<<

 

>"Well what does that tell you?"<

 

>>Not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that it would have been better to avoid hearing directly from Srila Prabhupada in person and only read his books?<<

 

No, I am saying the important thing is to take his instructions to heart.

 

 

>>There were probably devotees whose adhikara was such that it would have been better had they not had so much association with Srila Prabhupada. It depends on the motivation and faith of the disciple. If the disciple has a tendency to see the Guru as a mortal man, filled with defects, then offenses will be committed. Probably better for such persons to simply stick with reading the books until such time that one's faith matures. Other devotees may have taken advantage of Srila Prabhupada's vapuh for political motives, perhaps even unknowingly in the beginning. Those devotees who had very little association with Srila Prabhupada but who studied his books seriously, many of them fell down as well. Others in this category saw their faith mature, and as they progressed, they hankered for Srila Prabhupada's personal association more and more, thus they made great strides in developing their guru-nistha.<<

 

Yes, again the essential point is to take the instructions to heart.

 

 

 

"But surely you are not implying that his merciful glance upon your soul is possible only through the vapuh form. Or his prema for Krsna cannot overtake you as you listen to one of his recorded lectures."

 

>>No, just that I believe it is far more likely that one would actually experience these things while in his personal presence. I am blind, and I was born in the darkness of ignorance. Again, we aren't impersonalists. <<

 

Are you suggesting impersonal presence of some kind? "More likely" sounds like a game of chance. Perhaps receptivity in the heart of the listener is really the determining factor.

 

>>Srila Prabhupada travelled the globe 11 times over. He said he did this to enliven his disciples. Why would he do this when his books were already there?<<

 

>"To further inspire his disciples who were not yet on the level to consistently receive the same from his vani."<

 

This is a contradiction. If we are following Srila Prabhupada's vani, if we've actually carefully read and studied his books, then we should know the importance of hearing and chanting in the association of pure devotees.

 

This is a circular logic. The books point to the devotee as well as to sastra. The devotee points to sastra as well as to the devotee. In the beginning the devotee sees the form of the devotee as being more valid than the sastra and so is willing to take more inspiration there. Eventually, while not neglecting the form he learns to increase his appreciation for the instructions.

 

 

>>Your reply seems to indicate that ideally, everyone should be completely satisfied and enlivened from the books so that there would be no further need for Srila Prabhupada's personal association. Again, that sounds rather impersonal.<<

 

I don't see Prabhupada's instructions as impersonal. When you read Krsna-lila do you think that is impersonal?

 

 

>>During Srila Prabhupada's final days, he requested all his disciples to come to Vrindavana to be with him. In person. He could have said "everyone just stay where you are and read my books in separation, don't come see me, I am already in my books." But he didn't. <<

 

I am saying both union and separation are PERSONAL. Personalism means variety of mood. I know that much and that is all. I won't attempt to analyze such moods from my present kanistha level.

 

"You said its not a question of vani vs. vapuh but that is exactly the point you are trying to make. Why do you consider hearing Prabhupada's presence in his books something less than personal presence?"

 

>>I think there is a misunderstanding here, and it's probably my fault for not taking the time to elaborate. It's not a question of vani vs vapuh. I've heard this debate many times before, usually from the ritvik camp. Most of the people I've seen who pound the vani drum don't actually practice what they preach. A healthy dose of pure vapuh association might cure that, however. Such is the potency. And again, if you haven't experienced it, then there's probably nothing I can say that will change your mind. And by the way, in no way am I minimizing the potency of the books. I just feel that the general mood nowadays has been to minimize vapuh, therefore I would like to see a balance, to see the pendulum swing back towards somewhere in the middle. Both vapuh and vani are important.<<

 

Well I am not a ritvik. I hear some forms of ritvikism that sound like heresy to me. But they also have some very valuable points as well.

 

>>You raised some valid points, prabhu and I hope that I haven't come on too strong in making this reply.<<

 

No not too strong. I just think you misunderstand my position on the issue. If you want to argue with a ritvik you will have to find one first. I am not that person.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

theist