ritviks

[Guest guest]

So who are ritviks?

[yasodanandana]

devotees... who, desiring to be followers of srila prabhupada and thinking that there are not in this world other bona fide gurus to provide a link to Him and the rest of Parampara'...... they think that it is possible to have "ritviks" (officiants.. priests) representing srila Prabhupada giving initiations..... and these initiates are considered diksha disciples of srila prabhupada

 

ritviks says that thi system was created by srila prabhupada in the last days of his mission on this planet

 

and generally speaking that this ritvik system saves us from the need to meet "bogus" masters from iskcon and gaudya math

 

who is not agree says that the ritvikk system was intended only in presence of this world of srila prabhupada

 

and that a thing like this never happened in gaudya vaishnava sampradaya

 

very expert and saint devotees treat this "theory" like a kind of joke... the spiritual master has to be one that is possible (also with difficulties) to approach directly and to receive direct answers,and also, the possibility to be refused as disciples if He thinks that we are not fit

[Guruvani]

The above post by Yasodanandan das is a good example of how ISKCON outsiders like new devotees and some of the Old school Godbrothers of Prabhupada and their disciples like Narayana Maharaja etc. misunderstand the rtvik system and make false, misleading propaganda against it.

 

he says:

quote

"ritviks says that this system was created by Srila prabhupada in the last days of his mission on this planet"

unquote

 

 

This shows a very serious lack of knowledge about when and how the rtvik system was established in ISKCON by Srila Prabhupada. It was not created "in the last days of his mission on this planet". It was created at the same time the GBC was established in the early years of ISKCON before 1970 and the rtvik system was used in ISKCON for probably about 9 years or more. Many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples were initiated through this rtvik system and received the gayatri mantras from the tape Srila Prabhupada AUTHORIZED to be used for brahminical initiation.

 

What Prabhupada did do in his last days was REVISE and reform the rtvik system somewhat by giving more authority to 11 disciples who would then have the power to approve rtvik initiations without needing to get final approval from the secretary of Srila Prabhupada. Prior to the appointment of the 11 new approving authorities there was only one person who could give ultimate approval to a rtvik initiation and that was the secretary of Srila Prabhupada who would just inform Prabhupada that some initiations were going to be performed and either Prabhupada would give them a name or the secretary also had the authority to assign them a spiritual name. Pradyumna had tahe duty of assigning names during much of the rtvik period in ISKCON. In the later years Prabhupada gave his secretary the power to approve initiations and assign names without even having to present the individual information to Srila Prabhupada. In his last days Prabhupada revised the system and appointed 11 disciples who had that authority and also gave the GBC the authority to appoint more rtviks after his passing.

 

Now, if Prabhupada did not intend for the rtvik system to continue after his passing then why would he revise and reform the system just a few weeks before his departure? If the rtvik system was to be abandoned after his departure why did he bother to make these changes? The changes were made in preparation for his departure, so why was the rtvik system abandoned after his departure?

 

If Prabhupada did not intend for the rtvik system to be continued after his departure there would have been no need to revise the system. It could have just been left alone because his departure was imminent, so why make changes if it it was only going to be useful for a few weeks?

 

The post by Yasodanandan das is a good example of why new devotees should not be intruding into ISKCON affairs and making false propaganda about the rtvik system. He already said that his guru is a Godbrother of Prabhupada's and therefore he is not an ISKCON devotee and has no experience of ISKCON during the Prabhupada era. ISKCON affairs should be no concern of his. He is not a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and is making untrue propaganda about something he is ignorant about.

 

ISKCON should best be left for the disciples of Srila Prabhupada to try and maintain and continue. Outsiders from the Gaudiya Matha and other such groups should keep out of ISKCON affairs because they have no good understanding or knoweldge about how Srila Prabhupada set-up ISKCON with a rtvik sytem that worked for about a decade. They can only speak orthodox dogma about diksha and have no good insight into the workings and affairs of ISKCON as it was established by Srila Prabhupada.

[yasodanandana]

thanks for correcting me about the introduction of ritvik system in srila prabhupada times.. but you have not explained how is possible for a conditioned soul to approach a guru who is living in goloka vrindavan, asking questions, serve him and be accepted as a sisya or a diksa disciple

 

in srila prabhupada's life... even if difficult, there was the possibility, to approach, to ask, to be accepted, to be refused

 

not now.. for conditioned souls..

 

so where is the teacher/pupil relationship?

 

it is not enough that generally the most part of us have our spiritual masters so far, in other countries or constantly travelling with a very rare possibility to approach them ?

 

 

but your offensive and sectarian mood shows by itself how you are a real iskCon (=krsna conscious devotee) or a prabhupada follower.. the fact that one is identifying himself with an organization (in this "crusader" or "taliban" way) or a spiritual path maybe is not enough if the qualifications are not there(even if i can say the same thing for me)

 

the funny thing is that you put together "iskcon member" and "ritvik theory follower" like you have been on the moon on the last twenty years.. do you know exactly what the leaders of the organization that you thing to belong to thinks of ritviks ?

 

about my affection to srila prabhupada and how i feel to be a (not good at all) devotee of him i do not speak.....

 

the same thing if i am an old or new devotee..

 

about prabhupada desiring the (re)union with gaudya math, it is enough to read the last pages of lilamrita

 

the fact i am also serving now(of course in my big maya) steadily in iskcon, means also that i have find devotees less sectarian (even if difficulties are there) than you

 

and i am aware of the fact that this idea is born as a reaction to the falldown of many gurus, and that surely there are sincere peoples involved... but it is very easy to see that it is simply a "do it yourself" matter and a way, for the leaders of such movement, to be free to develop or not any guru quality... "who cares?, the initiator is Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada not me"

 

(do you know anyone performing initiations for naradamuni? or prahlada maharaja? or jesus? what is the difference?)

 

sorry for my english and for the fact that i have answered, but there are other people and these unjustified offenses needed an answer

 

 

[Guruvani]

I am not going to argue this issue with you prabhu. You already have your opinion about the rtvik method even though you have a very poor fund of knowledge about the rtvik system Prabhupada authorized in ISKCON.

You are talking to me as if it is I who invented the system and introduced in in ISKCON.

 

Sridhar Maharaja was asked this same question about how such extraordinary dealings could be introduced. His answer was that "by the will of the Vaishnava". There is only one thing necessary to make the rtvik system acceptable to Krishna and that thing is "the will of his pue devotee". It is the will of Prabhupada that makes rtvik genuine. Without his will, nobody can come to be guru. With his will a rtvik system could be authorized as he had the authority to empower disciples to initiate on his behalf as he already established himself in ISKCON. Prabhupada trained his disciples to train new devotees and therefore new devotee are getting the same training that Prabhupada gave. There is no difference in approaching ISKCON and approaching Srila Prabhupada. It is the same thing.

 

The will of Srila Prabhupada is all it takes to make rtvik authorized and it was his will that the rtvik sytem be established in ISKCON and his will that it continue after his departure.

 

I have no personal attachment to the rtvik system apart from my understanding that Prabhupada wanted it to continue after his departue. I previously thought that his disciples would go on to become initiating gurus after his departure and for a couple of years after his departure I thought the same thing. Then, I was told by a senior sannyasi that Prabhupada told the GBC not to change anything after his departure and after hearing that I immediatly felt that not changing anything in ISKCON meant not changing the rtvik system that Prabhupada established in ISKCON. Prabhupada said "dont change anything after I am gone". What then is open for change if Prabhuapda said "don't change anthing"?

 

Despite it's many problems and mistakes, ISKCON is still the greatest force on Earth for spreading Krishna consciousness and distributing Prabhupada's books. These other obscure groups of Gaudiya Vaishnavas are making a very insignificant contribution to spreading Krishna consciousness all over the world.

[yasodanandana]

"Despite it's many problems and mistakes, ISKCON is still the greatest force on Earth for spreading Krishna consciousness and distributing Prabhupada's books"

 

it is ok, but you have a (uselessly) narrower vision of what is IskCon than the SrilaPrabhupada's one... and you are treating it as a "label" or a "brand" that it is enough to carry on the message even if there are not masters or pure devotees

 

 

" These other obscure groups of Gaudiya Vaishnavas are making a very insignificant contribution to spreading Krishna consciousness all over the world."

 

this is obviously not true... but even if it would be true, a vaishnava has to be happy if , for a sincere effort of another devotee, only one person today started to chant hare krishna.. and it is very sad if your do not feel the "insignificant" victories of any group of devotees as also your and srila prabhupada's victories (remember:......in every town and village)

 

and "obscure", "insignificant" and "gaudya vaishnava" are words that simply do not go together

 

this is the result of your theory.... only prabhupada is good, everyone can be offended without a problem, but prabhupada is already gone away when you make him a banner to make war and to sustain your fanaticism,

 

 

i am very sorry to have in some way brought you to say these offensive things

[Guest guest]

Are the followers of Narayana Maharaja not with isckon? Are they ritviks ?

[Guest guest]

please tell me.

[gHari]

Nothing is black and white, except perhaps that Srila Narayana Maharaja intensely opposes the ritvik conception. So the ritvik oppose him, a tit for tat, at least that is how it appeared to evolve as the chariots drew to their strategic positions on the battlefield.

 

As far as being in ISKCON, that is difficult to describe without offending someone, but I will try.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja considers Srila Prabhupada his Sisya Guru, and I think there is reasonable evidence to suggest that Srila Prabhupada considered him as his Sisya disciple. There is evidence of physical service having been rendered to Srila Prabhupada, and there were certainly numerous intimate and confidential moments between the two saints documented on tape.

 

ISKCON considers that if Srila Narayana Maharaja wants to preach in ISKCON he should preach as did Srila Prabhupada. There are only a few differences in the style and the content of their teachings, however the ISKCON GBC (managing authority) feels that the Acarya's teachings must be presented exactly as given by Srila Prabhupada, in order to preserve his unique mission of global sankirtana.

 

I intended to offend no one here. If anyone feels slighted, please accept that it was completely accidental.

 

I do see it all coming back together in our lifetimes though. All glory to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

gHari

[Guruvani]

I have covered the rtvik issue on a website dedicated to the issue. I hope the moderator will not ban me for posting the link. The website deals with information and does not promote any alternative movement or society apart from ISCKON. If you read through this web site you might be able to understand something about the rtvik controversy.

 

click here to read about rtvik and ISKCON;

http://go_rtvik.tripod.com/

[Guest guest]

PRABHU,

 

YOU MUST READ PRABHUPAD ORIGINAL BOOKS THAN YOU WIL BE SECURE IN YOUR PROGRES TO K.PREMA...OK!

PRABHUPADA EXPLANED 'READ MY BOOKS AFTER AND AFTER AND TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE WIL BE REVELD..''

you DO NOT NEED GURU BEYOND PRABHUPADA!

 

IT IS OFFENS!

HARE KRISHNA

 

MIRZA

[Devarsirat]

"but you have not explained how is possible for a conditioned soul to approach a guru who is living in goloka vrindavan, asking questions, serve him and be accepted as a sisya or a diksa disciple in srila prabhupada's life... even if difficult, there was the possibility, to approach, to ask, to be accepted, to be refused not now.. for conditioned souls..

so where is the teacher/pupil relationship?"

 

Thats excactly the point, only a self-realized soul can understand another self- realized soul properly and such a relationship is very very high.

 

But the ritviks must be all self-realized, even totally new ritviks, just having shaved up. They all say they have been initiated by Srila Prabhupada and

they might have accepted Srila Prabhupada as spiritual master, but this does not mean Srila Prabhupada has accepted them, so their relationship as Guru disciple is imaginary.

 

It is not that Srila Narayana Maharaja disagrees with the ritivik theory as continuation for the disciplic succession, He and others have to disagree because it is sastra which disagrees and therefor Srila Prabhupada would have never chosen it, he could not have done so, because it is not Sri Krishnas instruction and Srila Prabhupada tought Bhagavad Gita AS IT IS in capital letters. He himself always thought us never to change anything from what is written down and that is why we do not find anything in His books which are all "AS IT IS" about Him wanting His society to continue functioning with the ritvik system, its just not there, bass!

 

This does not mean the Iskcon guru system is bonafied either btw. Over and over we have seen that so called spiritual masters in Iskcon have fallen very badly which is totally contrary to what the Bhagavad Gita states, which is that the genuine spiritual master has always been a member of the disciplic succession and that he never falls down. This is true and a fact.

 

This means then that Iskcon guru system is full of faults. This and all the guru falldowns cast a huge negative shadow unto iskcon which to this day has not been able to admit these mistakes and address this problem to everyones satisfaction.

 

Srila Prabhupada said just before He passed away to some of His closest disciples that He wanted them to become Guru, but that the training was not complete. So this means it had to be completed, but they started running b4 they could walk and the result we all know.

 

They did not want to be trained they wanted everything now and then, but the question is who was supposed to train them, this no one is asking.

Even so it is the most important question and the answer if accepted could bring everything back to harmony.

 

But there you are, I personally believe Srila Prabhupada was appointing Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja to complete the spiritual training of the "choosen ones"

[theist]

This again. Whatever, it never happened. Get over it. Stop rolling around in the past. Krishna bhakti in present time...let's get on with it.

[suchandra]

 

This again. Whatever, it never happened. Get over it. Stop rolling around in the past. Krishna bhakti in present time...let's get on with it.

Spot-on, this should have been understood by now. To reduce Srila Prabhupada's status from messiah (diksha) to pot washer (shiksha) is why we are obliged to counter all these arguments.

 

May 10, 1970

Los Angeles

My Dear Bali Mardan and Upendra,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated by Post 5th May, 1970.

So it is very encouraging that people are coming to the extent of 40 heads, and they are trying to understand the importance of this great movement, and any sane man will be able to understand that. But I do not know why our students who are supposed to be the leaders of this movement will fight amongst themselves for supremacy. Our whole process is of surrendering.

We are taught to address others as Prabhu. Prabhu means master; and the leader of the masters is called Prabhupada. So if the Prabhus have surrendered to the Prabhupada, why there shall be such mentality of occupying the superior position? This is contradictory.

Kindly stop this unnecessary misunderstanding. Both Upendra and yourself are competent and experienced, so please adjust your disagreement amongst your selves. It is my request. As a matter of fact, as you are the pioneer in taking all risks to go to Australia, naturally you shall be considered as the leader, but a leader’s position is also very grave and responsible. A leader has to lead others very tactfully and intelligently. Kindly therefore do not quarrel, but go on with your duties progressively.

In the meantime, things should run on as it is, and if there is any need of change, we shall consider about it when Citralekha goes there. Please try to organize the new center as nicely as possible even at personal inconvenience–that is real service. Krsna is sitting in everyone’s heart, He knows everything what to do, so depend on Him and do your duties patiently.

Maya is very strong, and we are liable to fall down at any moment. We have to gather our strength by chanting the beads sixteen rounds regularly and praying to the lotus feet of Krsna for guidance.

I hope both of you will kindly follow my instruction and forget if there is any accidental disagreement.

Hope this will meet you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[Beggar]

 

Spot-on, this should have been understood by now. To reduce Srila Prabhupada's status from messiah (diksha) to pot washer (shiksha) is why we are obliged to counter all these arguments.

 

The above statement is the Suchandra Purport but it is thoroughly defeated by the Bhaktivedanta Purport to Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.47,

 

 

There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service.

It is also told in Caitanya Caritamrta that the diksa guru is nondifferent than the rupa of Krsna and that the siksa guru is nondifferent than the swarupa of Krsna. You can't find out the difference between the rupa and the swarupa of Krsna because there isn't any. Suchandra you should know better than this!

[suchandra]

 

The above statement is the Suchandra Purport but it is thoroughly defeated by the Bhaktivedanta Purport to Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.47,

 

 

It is also told in Caitanya Caritamrta that the diksa guru is nondifferent than the rupa of Krsna and that the siksa guru is nondifferent than the swarupa of Krsna. You can't find out the difference between the rupa and the swarupa of Krsna because there isn't any. Suchandra you should know better than this!

You're again wrong, good trial though (this type of siksa-guru system what is nondifferent with "the swarupa of Krsna" and you're refering to was never installed within ISKCON). Since you made it your mission to shout down anyone who proposes the worship of Srila Prabhupada, what else can be expected. Q: What the heck do you take interest in A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami? You rejected him long ago. Stick to associate with your godbrothers and follow your guru. This should be enough work to keep yourself fully engaged.

[Beggar]

Again we will look at Suchandra's statement:

 

Spot-on, this should have been understood by now. To reduce Srila Prabhupada's status from messiah (diksha) to pot washer (shiksha) is why we are obliged to counter all these arguments.

 

Here he equates Srila Prabhupada's unique, excellent position with that of a messiah (or the Messiah). If you consider messiah more than an ancient Hebrew term then we could also use the word saviour. But in his English writings Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has referred to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as "the Saviour of the East" (opposite but symmetrical to Jesus Christ as the Western Saviour). So Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Caitanyite vision he sees that in the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the samasta guru in His Acarya Lila. Of course the Thakura is only following in the footsteps of Srila Krsna das Kaviraja for this is what he has given in Caitanya Caritamrta. But here Suchandra has failed to understand the oneness and difference between a real guru in the line of Mahaprabhu and Mahaprabhu, Himself, even though we offered it to him by referirng to verse number itself. Now let's look at the sloka,

 

<table><tbody><tr><td>Ādi-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 1: The Spiritual Masters</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.47

śikṣā-guruke ta' jāni kṛṣṇera svarūpa

antaryāmī, bhakta-śreṣṭha, — ei dui rūpa

SYNONYMS

śikṣā-guruke — the spiritual master who instructs; ta' — indeed; jāni — I know; kṛṣṇera — of Kṛṣṇa; sva-rūpa — the direct representative; antaryāmī — the indwelling Supersoul; bhakta-śreṣṭha — the best devotee; ei — these; dui — two; rūpa — forms.

TRANSLATION

One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Kṛṣṇa. Lord Kṛṣṇa manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord.

But Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Krsna, Himself with the bhava or mood and kanti or effulgence (or color) of Srimati Radharanai. So then is Srila Prabhupada actually Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, since he is according to Suchandra, the saviour? Srila Krsna das Kaviraja has answered this in a previous verse in the same chapter,

 

 

<table><tbody><tr><td>Ādi-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 1: The Spiritual Masters</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.44

yadyapi āmāra guru — caitanyera dāsa

tathāpi jāniye āmi tāńhāra prakāśa

SYNONYMS

yadyapi — even though; āmāra — my; guru — spiritual master; caitanyera — of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu; dāsa — the servitor; tathāpi — still; jāniye — know; āmi — I; tāńhāra — of the Lord; prakāśa — direct manifestation.

TRANSLATION

Although I know that my spiritual master is a servitor of Śrī Caitanya, I know Him also as a plenary manifestation of the Lord.

Now here Kaviraja Goswami is referring to his guru who we know to be, Srila Raghunatha das Goswami. But Raghunatha das Goswami is not his diksa guru but rather his siksa guru and there is no mention anywhere about Kaviraja Goswami's diksa guru and here is where the idea of the siksa or Bhagavat guru paramapara comes from in our line. Again:

 

Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.47, Purport

 

There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service.

Yet Suchandra has committed this very offense right before our eyes:

 

 

 

Spot-on, this should have been understood by now. To reduce Srila Prabhupada's status from messiah (diksha) to pot washer (shiksha) is why we are obliged to counter all these arguments.

 

And he cannot own up to it. For he would rather take the position of judging the relationship of Srila Prabhupada's direct disciples with their guru because of his highly offensive position which is has no basis in guru, sadhu and sastra.

[suchandra]

 

Again we will look at Suchandra's statement:

Here he equates Srila Prabhupada's unique, excellent position with that of a messiah (or the Messiah).

Messiah (Hebrew: מָׁשִיַח, <small>Standard</small> Mašíaḥ <small>Tiberian</small> Māšîªḥ; Aramaic: משיחא, Aramaic/Syriac: ܡܫܺܝܚܳܐ, Məšîḥā; Arabic: المسيح‎, al-Masīḥ) Literally, Messiah means "The Anointed (One)", typically someone anointed with holy anointing oil. Figuratively, anointing is done to signify being chosen for a task; so, Messiah means "The Chosen (One)", particularly someone divinely chosen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah

 

No sir, like usually, beggar has it all wrong, is halluzinating but calling others foolishly offender. First he says, no, Prabhupada's books are not Krishna's books, although we provided all proof, now he says, messiah = God. At Wikipedia it says, messiah=the chosen one, someone divinely chosen. In other words, as stated also in Srila Rupa Goswami's Bhaktirasamrita-sindhu, a genuine spiritual master is not chosen by vote, but by the Supreme Lord Himself through the bonafide parampara system. It is that simple. Please learn to read Wikipedia and then come back.

 

"Therefore guru must be authorized person, not that bhūmi-phala- guru. No. “I am guru,” no. You cannot become guru unless you are agent to draw out the mercy water from the ocean of mercy of Krishna. That is guru. And therefore a guru is not an ordinary person. He is the representative, bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has sung, Krishna se tomāra, kṛṣṇa dite pāra: “Vaiṣṇava Ṭhākura, Krishna is your property. If you like, you can give.” Vedeṣu durlabhaṁ adurlabhaṁ ātma-bhaktau [Bs. 5.33]. You cannot get Krishna by studying Vedas. That is not possible. There is Krishna in the Vedas, but you cannot pick up. It is not possible. But if you go to the Krishna's favorite person… Kintu prabhor yaḥ priya eva tasya. Krishna’s very dear servant, confidential servant, is guru. Nobody can become guru unless he is in confidence of Kṛṣṇa. Na ca tasmād manuṣyeṣu kaścid me priya-kṛttamaḥ. These things are there. Not that by magic one can become guru. No. He must be…

Saṁsāra dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya-ghanāghanatvam, prāptasya kalyāṇa **. Everything is there in the śāstra. We have to see whether a person is actually bona fide agent of Krishna. Then we accept him as guru. Otherwise useless waste of time."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.6.8

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Vṛndāvana, November 30, 1976

 

 

full lecture: http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/761130SB.VRN.htm

[Beggar]

I really don't understand how your brain works Suchandra. Your last post was irrelevant. You discriminated between siksa and diksa gurus in a very crude manner. Admit it, repent and go on. Too proud? I guess so. What's it matter anyway, only a very few persons are reading this anyway.

[Vedesu]

 

I really don't understand how your brain works Suchandra. Your last post was irrelevant.

 

I've noticed that as well whenever you quote him in your replies. He is unable to defeat you using sastra and logic, so he resorts to ad-hominem attacks and when that fails, he resorts to strawmen and off-topic incoherent ramblings. Yesterday he twice accused you of not being a follower of Srila Prabhupada, even though he knows full well that you are a duly initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Today he boldly claims that you have rejected Srila Prabhupada. These are ad-hominem attacks, simply making harsh, prejudiced, baseless judgements upon your character. Even when you show him direct quotes from Srila Prabhupada's vani regarding siksa guru being non-different than Krsna, his assault continues. Clearly, Srila Prabhupada's vani is not as important to him as winning an argument and trying to make you appear to be an evil person, per his agenda.

[suchandra]

 

I really don't understand how your brain works Suchandra. Your last post was irrelevant. You discriminated between siksa and diksa gurus in a very crude manner. Admit it, repent and go on. Too proud? I guess so. What's it matter anyway, only a very few persons are reading this anyway.

 

I can live at best being insulted by guru-tyagis like beggar, so go on as you like! Again, it clearly says that this kind of sikhsa-guru system you were talking about was never installed within ISKCON. It is rather something like vartmana-pradarshika-guru, giving direction - someone who also gives siksha but who is not a siksha-guru. If for example Bhakta Joe instructs a guest at the Sunday feast how to chant Hare Krishna he's giving sikhsa, but he's not a sikhsa-guru but a vartmana-pradarshika-guru, pointing in the right direction. Anyone knows this except beggar - is he a Vaishnava anyway?

[Beggar]

 

I can live at best being insulted by guru-tyagis like beggar....

The reason Suchandra calls me a guru-tyagi is because I accept instructions from a guru other than my diksa guru, Srila Prabhupada. But I know that Srila Prabhupada and all the bonafide sadhus see it this way.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.35, Purport:

 

A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden.

There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.

 

 

 

<table><tbody><tr><td>Ādi-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 1: The Spiritual Masters</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.1

vande gurūn īśa-bhaktān

īśam īśāvatārakān

tat-prakāśāḿś ca tac-chaktīḥ

kṛṣṇa-caitanya-saḿjñakam

SYNONYMS

vande — I offer respectful obeisances; gurūn — unto the spiritual masters; īśa-bhaktān — unto the devotees of the Supreme Lord; īśam — unto the Supreme Lord; īśa-avatārakān — unto the incarnations of the Supreme Lord; tat — of the Supreme Lord; prakāśān — unto the manifestations; ca — and; tat — of the Supreme Lord; śaktīḥ — unto the potencies; kṛṣṇa-caitanya — Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya; saḿjñakam — named.

TRANSLATION

I offer my respectful obeisances unto the spiritual masters, the devotees of the Lord, the Lord's incarnations, His plenary portions, His energies and the primeval Lord Himself, Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya.

 

 

 

gurūn — unto the spiritual masters spiritual masters is plural!