Guruvani Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 Srila Sridhar Maharaja also apoointed his successor to act as rtvik. His own words to everybody on this issue are given on a public declaration of his spiritual succession: "Public Declaration by Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaj [from a recording on Gaura Purnima, 26th March, 1986] According to the desire of my Divine Master, I have been maintaining this Disciplic Succession but it is no longer possible for me, as I am now too old and an invalid. You all know from long ago I have chosen Sriman Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj and I have given him sannyasa. All my Vaishnava Godbrothers are very affectionate towards him and it is also their desire to give him this position. I have previously given to him the charge of the Math and now I am giving him the full responsibility of giving Harinam, diksha, sannyasa, etc., as an Acharya of this Math on behalf of myself. Those who have any regard for me should give this respect and position to Govinda Maharaj as my successor. As much as you have faith in my sincerity, then with all sincerity I believe that he has got the capacity of rendering service in this way. With this I transfer these beads and from now he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik. The ritvik system is already involved both here and also in the foreign land. The ritvik is the representative. So if you want to take from me, and you take by his hands, then it will be as well and as good as taking from me. In the Mahamandala, Sagar Maharaj and many others are also ritvik of Swami Maharaj and also myself. They may do so, but in this Math and in any Math under this Math, he will be the representative. If anyone cannot accept this, he may leave the Math rather than stay here and disturb the peace of the Math. With all my sincerity and good feelings to Guru-Gauranga, to the Vaishnavas and the Acharyas, Mahaprabhu, Pancha-Tattva, Radha-Govinda and Their Parshadas, with all my sincere prayers to Them, henceforth he will represent me in this affair beginning from today's function. Now I shall go from here and he will do the necessary. On my behalf, he will give Harinama, diksha, sannyasa, and everything. then end. We will notice in this declaration by Sridhar Maharaja that he referred to Akshayananda Swami and others as "rtvik" of Swami Maharaja (Srila Prabhupada) some 9 years after the passing of Srila Prabhupada. If he did not endorse a post-samadhi rtvik system then why was he referring to the sannyasis as "rtvik" of Srila Prabhupada some 9 years after his passing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 Srila Govinda Maharaja is such a bad example for the ritvik position. It meant to him exactly as everyone in the GBC understood from Srila Prabhupada's conversations, nothing like the ritvik takes on the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted June 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 Sorry, Akshayananda Swami changed his name to Bhakti Ananda Sagar Maharaja when he took raga-marga diksha from Sridhar Maharaja. Also, we are not talking about what Govinda Maharaja interpreted this to mean. WE are talking about the ORDERS of Sridhar Maharaja, not the alternative to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted June 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 It always amazes me how obstinate and stuboorn some devotees can be even in the face of cold hard facts. Sridhar Maharaja called Sagar Maharaja and MANY OTHERS as rtvik of Srila Prabhupada some 9 years after Prabhupada was gone. Sridhar Maharaja considerd them as rtviks! That means his is endorsing POST SAMADHI rtvik. It is quite obvious and apparent and only a blind person could not see that from his words in this address by Sridhar Maharaja which was his declaration of spiritual succession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 He clearly stated later that Srila Govinda's initiates would be his disciples, not Sridhara's; they would be grand-disciples, period. If anyone couldn't accept that, they could go elsewhere. His words were very strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted June 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 Please present your evidence besides your twisted interpretation and word jugglery. you can't there is none. You are simply trying to mislead devotees with untruth and fabrication. your party spirit is clouding your grasp of the facts. /images/graemlins/blush.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 A perfect disciple is real guru. So they are saying no more real disciples in my org? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted June 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 “I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and ALL the members of the Society, they're supposed to be MY disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are INITIATED BY ME spiritually" - (Srila Prabhupada Radio Interview, 12 March 1968, San Francisco) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted June 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 Poster: theist Re: perfect disciple = guru A perfect disciple is real guru. So they are saying no more real disciples in my org? actually, in the highest consideration, yes exactly! None of them come up to the real standard of a real guru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 It was one of the people from his matha who presented the quotes. They were upset that some ritvik people were trying to twist the truth about their master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted June 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 Poster: gHari Re: I don't have the text It was one of the people from his matha who presented the quotes. They were upset that some ritvik people were trying to twist the truth about their master. You are not presenting the real evidence to support your claim. You are talking hearsay and political opinions of followers of Govinda Maharaja. I want to deal with the orders of Sridhar Maharaja, not some angry opinions of the disciples of Govinda Maharaja. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 They were presented as direct words from Srila Sridhara Maharaja. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 The thing is Guruvani one can decide to surrender at any second. Then you would have a self-realized soul, capable of delivering a soul to Krsna. This could be you. You may decide to internaly as well as externally surrender fully to Krsna. Would it make sense then for Iskcon to shut its doors to you? Of course not. Then what happens to the ritvik conception? You see I agree with a lot of what the ritviks say in terms of Prabhupada's continued presence. What I disagree with is the need to ritualize it. The works of previous acarya's are still living. I don't need some offical priest to ok my partaking of that living reality. I do need Krsna's grace to have real access to the import or inner meanings of what is written, that I readily admit. But what potency can come from some officiating priest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 This ain't my crocodile. And this ain't no court room. Appy unting, mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 Srila Sridhara Maharaj Did Not Support Ritvik Doctrine http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9901/ET21-2893.html I would think that actual sisyas of Srila Sridhara Maharaja would know better his heart than ritviks, who will take anything and everything out of context to bludgeon others with their fanatical political views. -Bhakta Samosa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted June 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 I know what you are referring to. It was a conversation between Sridhar Maharaja and some irate disciple who was telling Sridhar Maharaja that appointing Govinda Maharaja as rtvik would lessen his standing in the eyes of some others and Sridhar Maharaja said "he is more than rtvik". This gets tedious but let me explain briefly. The final declaration of his Spiritual succession is the address that I have posted on the opening post of this thread. What Sridhar Maharaja said in a conversation to a peson who was clearly disturbing Sridhar Maharaja is not to be taken as significant as the formal and official declaration of spiritual succession that I have referred to. Can't you see the reasoning in that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted June 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 I don't buy Tripuari Swami's version of the situation either. All we have in this article is his version of the situation. I prefer to accept Sridhar Maharaja's version and not the adulterated, twisted angle that Tripurari Swami presents. Again, just another OPINION of Tripurari Swami that contradicts the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 I've known many devotees who had the good fortune of Srila Sridhar Maharaja's company and instructions; you seem to be the only one who has such an understanding of these particular instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted June 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 Maybe I am the only one who does not have an agenda, a temple, a matha, a following or a personal ambition tied to it. I was in the camp of Sridhar Maharaja when Tripurari Swami was still trying to become an official ISKCON guru and get the GBC rubber stamp. When he couldn't be guru in ISKCON he left. I was the first pujari in Sridhar Maharaja's first temple in the western world. I served his Sri Govardhana-sila.(raga-marga seva) I was also the head cook at that temple. When Sridhar Maharaja was read a letter I wrote him he wanted it published in his magazine. Guess what? I was denied that recognition by Sridhar Maharaja, his orders were disobeyed and the letter was not published. There is some history of rejecting some of his orders in this way. Maybe you can understand my skepticism of some things and some followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 QUOTE: The thing is Guruvani one can decide to surrender at any second. Then you would have a self-realized soul, capable of delivering a soul to Krsna. This could be you. You may decide to internaly as well as externally surrender fully to Krsna. Would it make sense then for Iskcon to shut its doors to you? Of course not. END QUOTE The self-effulgent guru sets up his own ashram or organization, just as Srila Prabhupada did. He does not usurp or take any of the property of his guru maharaja. ISKCON is for disciples and followers of Srila Prabhupada, end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 Guruvani: Maybe I am the only one who does not have an agenda, a temple, a matha, a following or a personal ambition tied to it. Well, that's just the reply I would have predicted. In fact, I haven't met a ritvik advocate yet who will grant that anyone who doesn't to his version of the truth has any sincerity or intelligence. They seem to think that anyone who can't see what they consider self-evident truth (even though it wasn't evident to anyone for 10 years or more) is either driven by corrupt motives or foolish. Hmmm . . . sounds a lot like Limbaugh's attitude toward anyone to the left of George Will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted June 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 when you want to post a quote try posting it between [*quote*] words go here [*/quote*] and you will get (leave out the asterisks) this is the quote you wanted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 The self-effulgent guru sets up his own ashram or organization, just as Srila Prabhupada did. He does not usurp or take any of the property of his guru maharaja. I can appreciate that and basically feel the same way. Though it does raise more questions due to the uniqueness of Iskcon's position in the world and how people can work together. Such as: ISKCON is for disciples and followers of Srila Prabhupada, end of story. Does this mean that if one of Prabhupada's disciples becomes fully Krsna conscious he is no longer a disciple of Prabhupada and not welcome in his father's house? The topmost disciple is no longer welcome? Another manifestation of the problems that arise when one tries to make the current of Krsna consciousness conform to an institution rather than the institution conforming to the current of Krsna consciousness. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 what is the meaning of reprezentative Rtvik and what is the gaudya vaisnava guru? herewith a new age like definition of guru, pardon, a pro iskcon like definition of guru, whatever the context. The self-effulgent GURU sets up own ashram or organization We should understand guru tattva, we should understand siddhanta. What gives the disciple, and what gives guru back? vanca kalpa... Popocatepetl the fool of Her Majesty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2003 Report Share Posted June 29, 2003 (quote)Does this mean that if one of Prabhupada's disciples becomes fully Krsna conscious he is no longer a disciple of Prabhupada and not welcome in his father's house? The topmost disciple is no longer welcome?(/quote) No. Srila Prabhupada did not quit the Gaudiya Math. But he formed his own institution for the maintenance of his disciples and followers. An acharya sets up his own institution for his disciples and followers. What the eleven "appointed" gurus did, however, was claim their guru's property to be their own and divided it up amongst themselves. Their godbrothers and godsisters were then forced to accept them as the new acharyas or leave. Reforms over the years were too late, as by that time an exodus of over 95% had occured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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