B.R. Sridhar Maharaja appoints rtvik successor

[Guest guest]

 

Their godbrothers and godsisters were then forced to accept them as the new acharyas or leave.

 

 

even worse...some attempted or commited suicide. This is the unfortunate history.

[theist]

T:>(quote)Does this mean that if one of Prabhupada's disciples becomes fully Krsna conscious he is no longer a disciple of Prabhupada and not welcome in his father's house? The topmost disciple is no longer welcome?(/quote)<

 

G:>>No. Srila Prabhupada did not quit the Gaudiya Math. But he formed his own institution for the maintenance of his disciples and followers. An acharya sets up his own institution for his disciples and followers. What the eleven "appointed" gurus did, however, was claim their guru's property to be their own and divided it up amongst themselves. Their godbrothers and godsisters were then forced to accept them as the new acharyas or leave. Reforms over the years were too late, as by that time an exodus of over 95% had occured.<<

 

Yes, I am aware of that fiasco. I just stated the problem with the solution. The receipe appears to be an institution

with no ther pure devotees allowed besides Srila Prabhupada.And I have noticed that those that do leave an start their own programs are then called ambitious for name and fame etc. and scorned away. I doubt that this would be Prabhupada's desire somehow.

 

For every three that do this perhaps only one is genuine. But to have this blanket attitude means you will have an entire institution systematically engaging in vaisnava aparadha towards that one.

 

It's not really my problem, I guess, but it smells like disaster.

 

 

[Guruvani]

As I have already stated on another thread, the appointment to rtvik is not demeaning of the disciple or a belittling of his position. To be authorized as rtvik to the acharya is the greatest authority that a disciple can be given. In this transaction the acharya is saying that I back you up 100%. To be rtvik of the acharya is even more powerful than becoming a guru out of one's own volition.

As a guru, one must take full responsibility of delivering his disciple and is limited by his own advancement and ability to do so. He must accept the karma of the disciples and burn it up with the power of his own purity. If there is the least of disqualifications on the part of the guru, there will not be success for either the guru or the disciple in the attempt to attain the highest goal of prema.

 

When Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja appointed rtvik representatives they made an agreement to stand behind that disciple 100% and to accept full responsibility for their decisions that were made based upon the guidelines given.

 

A rtvik of the acharya is therefore the most entrusted and the most empowered disciple who has been given the supreme authority to accept disciples on his behalf. This is hardly a withholding of authority or empowerment, rather it is the highest of honors and the greatest of responsibilities that the acharya can bestow upon his disciple.

 

A genuine rtvik of the acharya is therefore more than an ordinary guru, as he has full sanction and authority from the acharya to accept disciples on behalf of the acharya even after his visible disappearance.

 

The idea that a rtvik is a lower authority with less responsibility than a guru is a mistaken notion which has led to so much confusion and disturbance to the movement.

 

We need to correct this misconception and realize the importance of the rtvik to the acharya.

[theist]

>>A genuine rtvik of the acharya is therefore more than an ordinary guru, as he has full sanction and authority from the acharya to accept disciples on behalf of the acharya even after his visible disappearance.<<

 

You and I have different understandings of guru. What you term "ordinary guru" is not what I mean by guru. Actually a genuine guru has the full backing of his guru, Krsna and in fact the whole Spiritual Sky.

 

You describe this "ordinary guru" as one acting under his own volition. I would also becareful to avoid hearing from such a person.

 

[Guest guest]

With all due respect, this statement is incorrect:

 

"even though it wasn't evident to anyone for 10 years or more"

 

Please do not generalize in this regard because the idea of devotees initiating on behalf of Srila Prabhupada (long before the word ritvik became known or popular) was already in the minds and hearts of some, if not many, in 1977 and even before. Whether one agrees or disagrees is not the question here. But only Srila Prabhupada and Supersoul know the hearts of Prabhupada's disciples.

[Guruvani]

The term rtvik, as it was used in reference to officiating over initiations in ISCKCON goes back to the 60's. I know that the term was in use in 1975 because I heard the term being used by a GBC and a temple president. Prabhupada introduced the term rtvik at the same time he introduced the rtvik function of the GBC. The GBC members were performing rtvik initiations since the late 60's and the term was in use as well at that time.

The difference came when Prabhupada appointed 11 disciples to have rtvik authority to replace the previous system of Prabhupada's personal secretary (which changed every few weeks or months) having the only final approval for rtvik initiations after reporting the information to Srila Prabhupada.

The term rtvik was not introduced in Prabhupada's last days or forgotten about for ten years after his departure.

 

It took most disciples a few years after Prabhupada's departure to come to the conclusion that the GBC was corrupt and should not be followed. As more and more disciples realized this, the rtvik system started to get more and more publicity and the masses of devotees realized how they had been duped by the guru conspiracy.

 

For a few short years after Prabhupada's disappearance most disciples tried strenuously to obey the GBC and work with the guru system, As the guru system failed it was quite apparent that the rtvik system was what Srila Prabhupada really wanted for ISKCON. The GBC propaganda did have many devotees duped for a long time and in fact they still do. However, as the truth gets out, more and more disciples of Prabhupada are realizing that rtvik is the only alternative for ISKCON.

[stonehearted]

When I said it wasn't "evident" for several years, I meant that it wasn't being dicussed, at least not that I was aware. I knew of the movement led by Jadurani and Kailasa Chandra (disparaged by the "gurus" as "Judyism" which reminded us that the guru should be on the highest platform of devotion, but I didn't hear anyone discuss the idea that we should be initiating new devotees as Srila Prabhupada's disciples until the "ritvik" movement emerged in the late '80s, after the new Vrindavan meetings, which I attended. So maybe a few here and there were thinking that, but they didn't say it for years.

[Guest guest]

Some of us wrote letters and spoke to several GBC members from 1978 on about this, but were told to keep out of it and that Krishna would take care of it in due course of time, etc. Not all conversations and correspondence in this regard were publicized, but quite a number of exchanges took place. The brash proclamations and arguments which came later are often considered the beginning of such dialogue, but this is not the case. Some people prefer working behind the scenes and without personal attacks or disrespect to others while presenting their views and suggestions in a brahminical fashion. What we see on the public stage is often only the tip of the iceberg. Perhaps someday the entire history will come to light, the Lord willing. If not, He knows anyway and surely has a plan despite what might apparently seem like chaos to us at present.

[stonehearted]

I'd be interested to know just who brought this up in 1978. I was somewhat isolated from the institutional politics then, since I lived in Hawaii and worked outside (until '79, when I started a gurukula in Honolulu). We didn't have money for making a lot of long-distance calls then, and there was no email. So we were pretty cut off (and it didn't affect our faith in Krishna and our spiritual master, strangely enough).

 

Even years later, in the mid-'80s, either at the New Vrindavan meetings or around the LA temple community (where I associated almost exclusively with dissidents--I rented a room from a devotee who is very prominent among the ritviks now, and I spoke with Sulochan for almost an hour the night he was murdered) I didn't hear this idea discussed.

[Guest guest]

Some thoughts are just personal and they come naturally from within, with no efforts made to clamor for attention or become famous or try to enforce others to believe them or not. Some people prefer anonymity and serve for years and decades unnoticed. Someday I hope to meet you and we can discuss these things in person if you're interested and if the Lord so desires. Until then, adios amigos.

[gHari]

Do we know if he is actually performing post-samadhi ritvik initiations of disciples to Srila Prabhupada?

[Guest guest]

Good question.

[Guest guest]

Akshayananda Swami began initiating disciples five years before Srila Sridhar Maharaj made that statement mentioned here, where Srila Sridhar Maharaj said how Akshayananda Swami AKA Sagar Maharaj was a rtvik of himself and of Srila Swami Maharja Prabhupada

 

Akshayananda Swami did not want to initiate disciples, but instead to live in Nabadwip and translate books. Srila Sridhar Maharaj directly ordered him to take on the role of initiating guru, and his first disciple was a boy from Nabadwip named Doyala Nitai.

 

When Srila Sridhar Maharaj used the term "rtvik" he meant something totally different from what the post-samadhi ritvik philosophers imagine the word "rtvik" to mean.

 

And further, Akshayananda Swami or Sagar Maharaj has now given up sannyasa and has married a lady. Srila Govinda Maharaj tried to get discourage him from this course of action, but he could not stop Sagar Maharaj. Sagar Maharaj AKA Akshayananda Swami is now known as Swarupananda das in our society. We feel sad that he chose to follow the path he has taken in recent years, but he is not the first one to follow that path and he won't be the last.

 

-- Muralidhar das, Sydney

 

 

[Guruvani]

So, are you saying that Sridhar Maharaja was encouraging neophyte devotees to be guru, even though there was a good chance that they might fall down from sannyasa and create a disaster for all their disciples?

So, Akshayananda was initiating his own disciples instead of doing ritvik initiations and that offense caused him to fall down?

[Guruvani]

In regards to Sridhar Maharaja ordering Akshayananda to initiate disciples, he was asked about that after he appointed Govinda Maharaja as the sole ritvik to him and successor acharya in his Math - he replied:

 

"Dr. Asthana: But can they operate from outside and still operate as a part and parcel of you?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja: As a revolt. That is revolt—without sanction—anyone can do. I have deserted them. But they may do anything and everything as they wish and reap the results far from the spiritual world, from God. Unlawful.

 

Power may be extended and withdrawn also—I want to withdraw myself from them. Those that won't have faith in my decision, I withdraw from them. It is not a fashion but a question of faith. If they have no such faith in me, I withdraw myself from them."

[Guruvani]

Actually, the way I heard it from Sudhir Maharaja, was that they asked Sridhar Maharaja if these sannyasis of the Maha-mandal could initiate their own disciples if there were some devotees who didn't want ritvik initiation from Sridhar Maharaja but rather wanted to become the direct disciple of the ritviks that Sridhar Maharaja appointed to his international following he styled as Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Krishna Kirtan Maha-mandal. When asked about it in that form, Sridhar Maharaja agreed that they could accept disciples under those terms if they chose to do so.

 

Sridhar Maharaja did not really ORDER Akshayananda to accept his own disciples, rather he submitted to their request when they pressed him that some devotees wanted to be their disciples and not ritivk disciples of Sridhar Maharaja.

 

Eventually, Sridhar Maharaja withdrew his sanction to that kind of initiation. I personally saw some devotees like Brahma das pressuring new devotees at the San Jose temple to become disciple of Sudhir Maharaja instead of taking ritvik initiation from Sridhar Maharaja.(That was why I left that mission eventually)

 

When Sridhar Maharaja found out what was going on he withdrew his sanction from those sannyasis initiating their own disciples and he made it quite clear that Govinda Maharaja would be the sole ritvik, guru, and Acharya of his Math and all it's branches.

[Guest guest]

You said:

So, are you saying that Sridhar Maharaja was encouraging neophyte devotees to be guru, even though there was a good chance that they might fall down from sannyasa and create a disaster for all their disciples?

So, Akshayananda was initiating his own disciples instead of doing ritvik initiations and that offense caused him to fall down?

>>

 

Your conclusions are all wrong. 1 + 1 = 0 in your calculations.

 

Read Sri Guru and His Grace, if you want to know what Srila Sridhar Maharaj taught in relation to Guru Parampara and give up your mental speculation.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Actually, Ksambuddhi, you are misrepresenting the history and by doing so trying to discredit those who not only had Sridhara Maharaja's sanction and backing during his manifest presence, but to continue to have it today.

 

The question and response that you posted had nothing to do with those already functioning outside Sridhara Maharaja's formal mission - the question was with regard to those who were a part of that mission and would choose to leave it rather than honor his choice of Govinda Maharaja as his successor.

 

I know you like to simply spout off and say things without really thinking about the implications, but you really should be much more careful in your dealings with devotees.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

 

 

[Guruvani]

I have to confess that my source of information about Sridhar Maharaja deserting those who wanted to be guru instead of recognize the seniority of Govinda Maharaja, was Sudhir Goswami and the material is available to see on his website.(should I post the exact reference and show you?)

I know you are a disciple of Tripurari Maharaja and that you both are having a hard time digesting the sad truth about Sridhar Maharaja withdrawing his sanction from his ritviks other than Govinda Maharaja and also severing his approval for them to be gurus.

It is an well known fact in the camp of Govinda Maharaja, so don't make me out to be the bad guy because I am narrating a true story.

 

You know as well as I do that Tripurari Maharaja lost a lot of credibility in the camp of Govinda Maharaja when he chose to stand as guru rather than defer disciples to Sridhar Maharaja and Govinda Maharaja.

 

None of the other sannyasis in the camp of Govinda Maharaja take their own disciples. They defer all students to be initiated by Govinda Maharaja. At one time some of them did, but when they came to know the wishes of Sridhar Maharaja they had osme of their disciples re-initiated by Govinda Maharaja.

 

Since you want to accuse me of lieing, I will retrieve the actual quotes from Sudhira Maharaja's web site and show how it is not my version of the story but a well known fact in the camp of Govinda Maharaja.

[Guruvani]

For the sake of accuracy, I will post the actual material on the subject of Sridhar Maharaja deserting the "ambitious party" from the web site of Bhakti Sudhir Goswami:

 

Sri Rupa's caveat is not sectarian positioning nor malicious, but a caution from the adept of bhakti rasa. Rather, to imitate is to mock the siddha purush. This point you fail to grasp and in so doing rush to defend the lower while offending the higher.

 

Which brings us to your assertions concerning Swami. For the sake of accuracy Srila Sridhar Maharaja said the following regarding his installing Srila Govinda Maharaja as Acharya of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math. Referring specifically to western sannyasis preaching in his name as "the ambitious party and those who want name and fame rather than the substance itseslf," his exact words are excerpted here [note they are in English, intended for English speaking devotees, not targeting Bengalis]:

 

For those that have got no sraddha [faith], they may go away. They may not accept. I do not care. I don't accept them. If anyone has no recognition of this opinion of mine, I do not want them to live in the Mission. I drag them out."

 

Dr. Asthana: But can they operate from outside and still operate as a part and parcel of you?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja: As a revolt. That is revolt — without sanction — anyone can do. I have deserted them. But they may do anything and everything as they wish and reap the results far from the spiritual world, from God. Unlawful.

 

Power may be extended and withdrawn also — I want to withdraw myself from them. Those that won't have faith in my decision, I withdraw from them. It is not a fashion but a question of faith. If they have no such faith in me, I withdraw myself from them.

 

According to their faith — what to think? What to say? Those that do not obey me after my departure means automatically they will be left by me. Only it is a transaction of faith. No right but faith. If no faith in my word, they are automatically rejected... my disciples also, if what they do Govinda Maharaja does not accept, then they will be rejected.

— Srila Sridhar Maharaja

If someone you know feels this is applicable to Swami, that is their conclusion, and not something I am "telling everyone" nor, for that matter, have told anyone.

 

He was recognized by Prabhupada as the "most expert of all our sellers" and consequently the "incarnation of book distribution." He will be forever praised and respected for this service to Srila Prabhupada and the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

That he expresses some appreciation for the "siksha" of Srila Sridhar Maharaja is laudable. But it is understood, with threefold initiations (harinam, mantram, sannyas), that he is substantially a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. As such he need not profess allegiance to Srila Govinda Maharaja or Srila Sridhar Maharaja. That is his prerogative and not in question.

 

However, if someone approaches me, unsolicited, and enquires sincerely as to someone's qualification as a substantial representative of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and his line, I must give an honest opinion. Invoking the issue of allegiance to Govinda Maharaja is a red herring meant to deflect from actual events. When Srila Sridhar Maharaja sought Swami's consent to release one of his disciples, Swami refused and thereby challenged Srila Sridhar Maharaja's judgment. Srila Sridhar Maharaja considered this impertinent (maryada vyatikrama). It is from that time, circa 1987, that Swami's nascent relationship with Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math was aborted. Srila Govinda Maharaja tried, behind closed doors, to repair his relationship with Srila Sridhar Maharaja — not the inverse. That he advertises himself as a "siksha disciple" of Srila Sridhar Maharaja appears to be a marketing strategy not unlike the professional who boasted, "I have read Bhagavatam before Gaura Kishore Das Babaji."

[stonehearted]

Many other devotees who had Srila Sridhar Maharja's siksa or who took diksa from him, have a version of the meaning of this conversation that's different from Sudhir Maharaja's. I have heard it opined that Sudhir Maharaja's vitriol for anyone who claims a relationship with Sridhar Maharaja but who doesn't defer to Govinda Maharaja in all matters may be due to his natural gratitude to Govinda Maharaja for dragging him out of an awful fate and reinstating him in the sannyas ashram.

 

Ever seen Rashomon? Four mutually exclusive versions of the same crime. Which one is right? And anyone who champions one version over the others will take scorn from the champions of the others.

 

Do you know what's really important? Whatever service these devotees have given to the cause of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Everything else is asat.

[Guruvani]

Sudhir Maharaja also had something to say about Tripurari Maharaja becoming friends and collaborators with Hiranyagarbha das (Jagadananda das) who was the Sanskrit scholar who rejected Prabhupada, criticized Bhaktivinode and took re-initiation from Lalita Prasad and who is very favorable to Tin Kori baba and some other known sahajiyas.

 

Sudhir Maharaja said:

That once stalwart followers of Srila Prabhupada have been duped by a group of Prabhupada tyagis is tragic. Therefore, we have been warned by Mahaprabhu, as echoed in our entire guru varga: asat sanga tyaga—ei vaishnava achara. That the presiding guru of a website known as Sanga (Association), should fail to grasp this point, the very foundation of spiritual life, is as ironic as it is pathetic. Such internet presence is insidious: it's like watching someone morph into a sahajiya, in real time, through unsolicited email. I hereby "" to duSanga Spamkirtan.

[stonehearted]

Oops! I (who often claim to be a sophisicated reader) misread your post.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Kshamabudhi,

 

I just spent four wonderful weeks with Srila Govinda Maharaj and Bhakti Sudhir Goswami, including going to Jagannatha Ratha Yatra with them.

 

We spoke about these matters you are discussing, a few times. Goswami Maharaj didn't tell me anything new. It is all old news. Goswami Maharaj told me he considers himself to be like a dog of Srila Govinda Maharaj, so if any troublemaker comes to make a disturbance it is the duty of the dog to bark. I thought it was funny he said that, because I also decided to think of myself as a dog of Srila Govinda Maharaj a few years ago. Woof.

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj always promotes the principle of trnad api sunicena, taror api sahisnuna - be humbler than a blade of grass, more tolerant than a tree. Srila Govinda Maharaj has never gone out to attack or criticize any Vaishnava, and he certainly doesn't think every devotee should worship him as their personal Guide and Guru. He is simply trying to nurture the devotees who are exclusively dedicated to following the Message of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. Other devotees, they may have received some light from Srila Sridhar Maharaj and some light from elsewhere, and God bless them for that, but they have a different path.

 

There are some other Maths outside SCSMath which are fully connnected to Srila Govinda Maharaj and which have another acharya as initiating Guru, specifically the Sri Gaudiya Sangha which maintains the Imilitala Gaudiya Math in Brindaban, or the SCSMath in Mexico, where Sripad Ashram Maharaj is also initiating his disciples. Or indeed in our Soquel Ashram and Mexico where there are direct initiated disciples of Janardan Maharaj doing service for Srila Govinda Maharaj. So please don't speculate about what is happening in our Math if you don't know the real facts.

 

The person in the centre of the photo below is Sripad Bhakti Kiran Giri Maharaj, who for the past forty five years - yes! 45 years - has been the leader of the sankirtan of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math. But Sripad Giri Maharaj is a Guru in another Mission. He has his own disciples in his own Math: Sri Gaudiya Sangha. He is a direct disciple of Srila Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj. He did not receive any initiations from Srila Sridhar Maharaj, and he is serving Srila Govinda Maharaj today... and tomorrow....

 

 

The person to the left of Sripad Giri Maharja is Sripad Bhakt Prasun Aranya Maharaj, who was the first person to receive initiation from Srila Sridhar Maharaj. When he was a child Aranya Maharaj met Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur while he was going to school in Mayapura. But he was too young to get initiation. Indeed in Sri Guru and His Grace we read where Srila Sridar Maharaj was approaced by a devotee who asked for initiation, and Srila Sridhar Maharaj had to pray to Nityananda Prabhu for guidance, etc.. (some mention of Ramaujacharya is also given). Well, this devotee pictured above is the person who Guru Maharaj initiated, first of all. And Aranya Maharaj, Subal Sakha, Jadu Gopal, Hari Sharan Prabhu and other brahmacaris for 40 years or more, they are still walking behind Giri Maharja in the sankirtan of SCSMath.

 

Kshamabudhi, please don't create unnecessary conflict on the internet over matters relating to Srila Sridhar Maharaj and his sampradaya. These sorts of unnecessay quarrels are harmful to everyone who becomes involved in them.

 

 

-- Muralidhar

 

PS, this is absolutely the last line I will ever write on these forums about this subject

 

 

 

[Guruvani]

I am just a barking dog. However, this issue of Tripurari Maharaja rendering another edition of Bhagavad-gita with the help of Jagadananda das, a known Prabhupada-tyagi(rejected Prabhupada and criticisized him) and sahajiya sympathizer is a very pitiful effort by Tripuari Maharaja and as an old friend of his I am taking the burden of trying to help him realize how offensive and outragious it is to all those who respected and revered him over the years. I was a big supporter of Tripurari Maharaja for many years, but I became quite disappointed to find out that he is in cahoots with a major offender of Prabhupada, a sahajiya disciple, a sahajiya promoter and thereofore an outright sahajiya. I took this very personal because I have had a lot of great expectations for Tripurari Maharaja to represent Prabhupada so well and have been kicked in the face with this sahajiya conection of Tripurari Maharaja with Jan Brszinski.

 

Maybe you spent a few weeks with Sudhir Maharaja and that is nice. I spent two years with him in the early days of establishing the temple in San Jose, so I am no stranger to him. I had many intimate and close conversations with him during those wonderful days when Sridhar Maharaja was still with us. If you want to know the real inner mood of Sudhir Maharaja you should read his writtings. I do. I am an avid reader of his website and I don't think he is afraid to stand behind his words. Your casual conversations with him lately apparently did not touch on his real inner thought and expressions that he writes and publishes on his web site.

Here is another excerpt from his web site:

 

Regarding sahajiya association, Swami writes: [bhakti Sudhir Goswami] thinks I cannot attain nistha or more, because of my association with [brzezinski], and this betrays his lack of understanding in general. Indeed, it is ludicrous to him, for anyone to think that our cooperation [bhagavad Gita etc.] can produce anything spiritual.” Yes, together, with the leader of the western world Sahajiyas, Brzezinski, they will plagiarize spiritual literature and achieve name and fame among the ignorant. Actually, Brzezinski et al. are the counterfeiters, illegitimately appropriating the works of our guru varga for their debased purpose.