B.R. Sridhar Maharaja appoints rtvik successor

[Guruvani]

 

Kshamabudhi, please don't create unnecessary conflict on the internet over matters relating to Srila Sridhar Maharaj and his sampradaya. These sorts of unnecessay quarrels are harmful to everyone who becomes involved in them.

 

 

I did not create any of this conflict. The conflict exists outside of anything I have done. I am just a roving reporter who reports the facts about what is really going on in regards to issues I think need to be covered as a service to Prabhupada - to promote his mission and his message.

It's a nasty job - but somebody has to do it!

bow-like-wow /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Guruvani]

Here is some more thoughts by Sudhir Maharaja on Tripurari Maharaja's affiliation with Jan Brzezinski:

 

It is not that Brzezinski is developing newfound appreciation for Srila Saraswati Thakur. This is a ruse. Unfortunately, just the opposite has occurred. People are being asked to give their faith, their lives, their souls. In return, they are promised the purity of the Krishna conception of Saraswati Thakur and his followers, but are getting changed-up in the process. Purity is confounded with fanaticism. Those who emphasize difference and gradation, “have an agenda”. Those who uncover sahajiyaism are “sectarian”, “fanatics” who need to mellow out and get “balanced.” Truth is no longer the standard—rather, balance, eliminating differences, equilibrium—read, non-differentiation. Such so-called preaching sounds like a litany of the New Age hokum found in the directory, Common Ground: “passionate love,” “expressing feelings”, “building relationships”, “achieving balance”, “meaningful sex”, ad nauseam.

 

How can one not realize the absurdity of statements like: “While Jagadananda [brzezinski] is not a card carrying member of the Gaudiya Saraswata Sampradaya...” Duh! This is like saying, “While Sishupal is not a card carrying member of the Sri Krishna Fan Club…” Or, “[brzezinski's] position on contentious issues at this date is very different from what it was 25 years ago when he [rejected Srila Prabhupada and] went to Lalit Prasad.” Yes, it is very different. He is even more offensive. What to speak of Saraswati Thakur, now he even rejects Thakur Bhaktivinode!

 

Brzezinski's endless assault on our guru varga is merely a “comment or two on time place innovations... construed as offensive by fanatics.” Not to worry. We can only conclude that we are being conned. It is a deceitful tactic. What is crucial is being trivialized — to take our minds off the money. Not unlike the changeup. Either knowingly or unknowingly, people are coming under Brzezinski's influence.

 

To be fair, Brzezinski does not represent himself as anything other than what he is—an enemy of our sampradaya. He lost his faith long ago. He may be a scholarly sahajiya, with a pleasant smile, gentle demeanor, sense of humor, and be thorough, thought provoking and considerate, an all around nice guy. He may even try his best to render acceptable, neutral translations. His scholarship is attractive to many, like a jewel on the hood of a cobra. But he is a formidable opponent, who consistently leads the opposition to our guru-varga, challenging its veracity, and dismissing its legitimacy. His position remains unchanged. To his credit, he does not advertise himself differently. To suppress this, becoming his patron, is an alarming development and deplorable.

 

But remember this: Brzezinski is not only a sahajiya, but a guru-tyagi as well. And with his scholarly ascent, the list of those whom he is willing to tyag grows—note the elimination of Bhaktivinode. That is why Srila Sridhar Maharaja said, this route, challenging the authenticity of our guru-parampara, “ends in atheism.” When your faith is broken in one, the rest topple like dominos. Do not underestimate Brzezinski. By his association and patronage we can expect a similar result—the destruction of our faith. We are enticed, come closer, “get to know him better.” But I beg you to carefully consider the following in your heart: If it is a hundred feet for Srila Saraswati Thakur, how far should it be for men like us?

 

 

 

 

 

[BDas]

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: “If nama guru is living, then he should be mantra guru, he should be sannyasa guru.”

 

 

Ksamabuddhi/ Gandiva/ Guruvani suggested in his recent VNN article that one should avoid speculation and simply repeat word for word the teachings of the acharya. On the topic of Sridhara Maharaja and ritvik here is my humble attempt to follow that advice. Let the reader consider Srila Sridhara Maharaja’s words on the subject of guru and decide for himself if those words support what is now known as the “ritvik system”. /Brahma

 

 

If Nama Guru is Living:

 

Jayapataka Maharaja: What is the relationship between a sannyasi and his sannyasa guru.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: That is tathasta, whom I am much indebted for my spiritual progress, who will help me most in my spiritual progress, there we shall find the main guru.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: If nama guru is living, then he should be mantra guru, he should be sannyasa guru

 

Jayapataka Maharaja: And to whatever extent he is not surrendered, that much he won't go forward, (Bengali): jatadur samarpen haya nama tatakun ara

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: tatakun coming to opaque-coming to transparent.

Jayapataka Maharaja: Partially.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Partially to opaque, partially to transparent. According to the transparency, guru should be recognized in tathasta vicar. Vijayate tathasta tata, that will be clearly. Tathasta-impartial judgement at the relative and the absolute, two sorts of judgement-absolute and relative.

 

Guru falldown:

Jayapataka Maharaja: If the initiating guru, the Nama guru, say he falls down, just as we hear of one Maharaja . . . Say he falls down, from the path by act of providence, then what should the disciple do?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: He will take Name again and after-he may wait for some time. Because, if he was sincere first, he was a sincere disciple to his guru, first, now for some offenses he's neglected by his guru for sometime, he maybe, here and there, astray, led astray. Then he may come again, after that. . . (Bengali conversation) . . . karyakaryam ajanatah, utpatha-prathipannasya, parityago vidhiyate. In Mahabharat, Visvanatha says, statement: Dasa Mahajana , one of Dasa Mahajanas is Bhisma. Bhisma says to Parasurama, he is astra guru. Astra guru, also deva guru, acarya guru. Jiva Goswami Prabhu has taken this example

guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah

utpatha-prathipannasya parityago vidhiyate

"A guru who does not know what is to be done and what is not to be done, who has left the path of devotional service, should be abandoned." Mahabharata (Udyoga-parva 179.25)

If he goes astray, then he should be left, but there may be circumstances for some time. By the inconceivable desire of Krsna he may go astray, and he may come back again, come back again. So, disciple may wait for some time.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: And this is very unfortunate for the disciple when he gets such a test. In Harinama Cintamani, written by Bhaktivinode Thakur, you will find this elaborately described. Harinama Cintamani by Bhaktivinode Thakur, there we will find this guru tyaja chapter, how he has dealt with it carefully.

 

 

 

 

One Guru in Many Forms:

Jayapataka Maharaja: So those who have recieved Harinama from Bhaktivedanta Swami, then they are his disciples.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: They will take help, his disciples, may be, and they will take help from the diksa guru, because they are in the sadhana, on the way to the end. So, they'll take the help of this mantra guru. Nama guru, mantra guru. Nama guru is Bhaktivedanta Swami and when he will take mantrum from any of his disciples, he will be his mantra guru.

Jayapataka Maharaja: So, they will offer respect to both, a disciple will offer respect to both-nama guru and mantra guru?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Mantra guru. Then there is also sannyasa guru. Sannyasa guru is also in the stage-sannyasa or babaji state-that is also a guru. Guru-ONE IN MANY FORMS-siksa guru. Siksa guru. (atamat ta mantra gurun siksa gurun.)

Devotee: guru bhagavat tadan.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: guru bhagavat tadan avare haritaki, vande 'ham sri guru sri gurun. Tamal Krsna Maharaja was saying the other day, "vande 'ham sri gurun sri yuta . kamalan sri gurun vaisnavams ca. Sri gurun . . . plural

 

 

Higher and Lower Gurus:

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: We tried our best to follow the combined attempt after Prabhupada.

But when that was not possible gradually we have come out in

different parts and to go on with our own way. Because we could not

neglect our conscience. At the same time it is written in Hari Bhakti

Vilasa and common sense will also say so when man of superior

realization is there the inferiors must not stand in the way of his

preaching. They should rather help them. Strictly if we follow this

spiritual law and it is common sense also because the higher seed

should be distributed to all. And everyone available should have the

chance of getting that higher instruction.

 

Instruction means realization like homeopathic globule. Externally we

can not recognize what potency is there. So mantram and the nama

externally, physically, it cannot be detected. What is that? Only-

the man who gives it his realization is the potency with the sound.

So when higher potency in the mantram, whatever, is available really

then everyone should try to utilize himself in that way. This is

common sense and the sastra is also there.

 

Sudhir Maharaja: So Maharaja, you are that personality.

 

Sridhara Maharaja: Still the others will also be allowed to go on in

their way, different stages, different strata there should be. Still

the gradation is there. "

 

Expand the Initiating Gurus:

 

Sridhar Maharaja: “I told them right at the beginning when they came to discuss with me about this after Swami Maharaja departed. Then I suggested that this should be made into a dynamic practice so that every year during Gaura Purnima some new gurus can be included. Then the other party, the non-initiating godbrothers will have their confidence on the initiating godbrothers and give their support to them. Otherwise if they maintain some rigid practice then the relationship will be cracked. This was my suggestion but they did not care about that. On the other hand, emphatically they said that "No, only these eleven that Srila Prabhupada has selected will remain. Outside these eleven they will not include anybody else. I pointed out that if you include some more initiating gurus that will be more favorable. As it is now, when you are all going to leave [pass away], then you will have to appoint your disciples as initiating gurus. You have to empower your disciples so why can't you do that to your brothers? Can there be a more qualified person? So, better you keep it open. This practice will be very dynamic. If needed, you eliminate some people also from their position of guru and include also somebody when he is qualified.”

 

Compile a special mantra:

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: That asana should not be occupied by any of the disciples, because the disciples who are initiating, the initiating disciples, present guru, he will also regard his guru as superior to him. So he cannot occupy that seat. Do you follow?

 

Tamal Krsna Maharaja: Just like if Jayapataka gives one of his new men initiation-if Jayapataka Swami gives diksa to somebody, how that sisya will offer his pramans to Jayapataka, in what words, what mantra?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: In ordinary mantra of guru puja, until and unless his disciples compile a mantra, a special mantra for him, he is not to go to arrange the mantra or pranam, but when his disciples will come and make a mantra for guru-puja, they will do like that, otherwise a general mantra:

 

Gradation of Gurus:

Sridhar Maharaja: acaryam mam vijaniyam by Gods special grace, this is one of his functions that go to the low-to the lowest person and to take him from there gradually, this is one of the eternal functions of the Supreme Lord. There is gradation, the gradation section, hierarchy. Everywhere there is Gods presence and his helping tendency is also present everywhere, only to convert the free will, free will to acarya, free will of every jiva, even in creeper section, in tree and animal there is also at heart God there, Paramatma in that stage. So there is gradation.

aloke bava paroksa badha veduryam balanam usasanan

Just a teacher of a child, by installment he will supply the truth, not the whole truth to a child, but partially, gradually. So, the sastra, the scripture has also taken that path by installments. So guru is also, teacher is also in that way represented, just as sastra to the lowest, then superior, superior, superior. Teacher is also, guru is also. In that way, it is coming. Then at certain position, a workable truth. Otherwise, mainly within maya it is also working. Maya is not exclusively excluded from the interference of Godhead. Everywhere there is the presence of the Supreme. Otherwise, He is not Supreme. Everywhere is influence by gradation, degree it is.

 

Synthesis will help:

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Synthesis will help you most. As much as we can synthesize that will come to help you more. Your Prabhupada's Vyasasana should not be occupied by any of the disciples nor by their picture. A second seat should be given a little below for the present acarya. This will impress the disciple that even his [siddha] guru, he is giving respect to his own guru.

 

 

Free choice by Sraddha:

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: A person of one zone should be able to accept a guru of another zone. Free choice by sraddha. One who has preference for one acarya but he is compelled to accept an acarya who he considers to be lower than another-that is some anomaly. That zonal arrangement is against free choice. When one gets the comparative study of the words and expressions of the different acaryas from the bottom of his heart, he likes one acarya. But because he is in a particular zone, he is forced to accept another acarya -- that is an anomaly -- in my opinion."

 

 

 

Madhyama-adhikari guru:

Devotee: Will the disciple of a madhyama-adhikari guru achieve the same result as a disciple of an uttama-adhikari guru?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Of course. There may be little differences but according to one's previous sukrti we may recover the differences-sincerity. That may be compensated, gradually. If we are sincere, just as the connection of guru we may have by the arrangement of the absolute, so also in our own case that madhyama-adhikari guru will give instruction rightly. And also he may return and I can have justice. In one birth I may meet one guru and in another birth I man meet another guru. But substantial measurement will all be the same, only some difference in form. So, even in this life also after getting some instructions from a particular guru I may get another siksa guru where I can learn more. That may not be impossible. Because that guru is one, acarya mam vijaniyam. Our sincerity and His grace, that is one and the same thing. His grace-simultaneously there may be guru, simultaneously many gurus.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Diksa guru-siksa-guruke ta'jani krsnera svarupa (CC Adi 1.47) Diksa guru and siksa guru are both extensions of Krsna. Guru is Krsna, acaryam mam vijaniyam [CC Adi 1.46 ~ Bhag. 11.17.27]. Krsna has come there to liberate me, in different appearance, representations. He is coming, Krsna is coming, oneness in variegated position.

Jayapataka Maharaja: Who is qualified to be siksa guru?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Whoever sincerely will help me to go towards Krsna, he is siksa guru. Vaisnava is also siksa guru, vaisnavas. Vaisnavas, siksa guru. Who will come in my connection and will help me to go forward, he is siksa guru. And there is vartma pradarsaka guru, siksa guru, mantra guru, nama guru and sannyasa guru.

Some adjustment must be made:

Sridhara Maharaja: The position of acarya is very intricate. It is very difficult to bring an acarya under rule. You see, that is our practical experience. You please hear and note: The position of acarya is a relative thing, just as mother-child, father-child, wife-husband; so it s a relative thing. the position of disciple is also relative. So, relative and absolute and their position; to adjust between the two is a difficult thing and it is an eternal problem. Some adjustment must be made between the relation, and it is better that the acaryas themselves, they will come to directly make all the necessary adjustments between acarya and acarya, acarya and Godbrother, acarya, and his disciples, and the disciples and disciples. All these fine points of sentiment. Sentiment is not to be neglected. Law is not everything. Law should be accomodating to increase the sentiment, otherwise this is no law. Law should come to promote the sraddha, make room for the faith to develop. Such law should come to help us. Sastra. Sastra's jurisdiction is limited. Only to promote love, and when love comes it will be free. Smooth harmonious working is possible only in the area of love. Spontaneous. That is also some sort of hitch, as in madhurya-rasa and vatsalya-rasa . . . but all to please Krsna. Harmony is there. But ragavid bhava navadhi vaidhi bhakti adhikaras tu ragavid bhava navdhi. Vaidhi bhakti: devotion under the guidance of sastra, laws and rules, that is to a certain extent necessary. It will only help the inner awakenment of love and affection, and then it will retire. Law will retire giving room to the spontaneous flow of love. Loving service to the Supreme. So, law is not all. Law is necessary and especially in the lower stage. And it should make room for free movement between the relationship, just as I once told that if one is not married, there is no necessity of any separate room. He may lay down here and there. But, whenever he marries, he wants some room to behave in a particular way. Some private arrangement. So, when one is next to a disciple, that sort of relationship should find some independent place to express its fullest feelings, unbridled feelings towards the master. That should not be curbed by law. There is also necessity of law, and law's object will be to work our freedom for everyone. Freedom is the highest thing. Free service is raga-marg, and that is service proper. Not regulated and coerced, and pressed by law. That is not service. Expecially our aim is Vrndavana. So, free service. Without freedom, service is not valuable. Forced labor is no labor. Labor of love, that is required. and it is the thing for which all are out. Let us essentially think that we are all not only for the constitution, but the thing for which the constitution has been made, to that object. The constituation should promote to that aim. With this feeling. The newcomers are coming with their faith, and faith should be encouraged and also adjusted, that the faith of one person will not disturb another."

 

 

 

Making much of the position of acharya:

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: "That is a very serious question. They are making much of the position of the acarya. They are misusing the position according to him [Prabhupada]. But that is a very serious question and on that point I have discussed, I have given my opinion many times. In brief, a system should be created or arranged for the proper adjustment. Of course it is necessarymad gurusi jagad guru. He is the suprememost, at least in a particular way. In a particular way he is the best: yar ye rasa se haya sarva . . . Relative position. From the relative standpoint the disciple will see his guru to be the best. And there he will think, that the Lord has delegated him to come to me and to deliver me from the clutches of maya. He has some particular affinity there. And there are many acaryas, and what should be the behavior, the conduct of the disciples of different acaryas? How and what should be the behavior or conduct towards the nonacarya, godbothers of the acarya? That should be evolved. If direction is not given by Swami Maharaja, there might be some signs, some hints. But if it is not found there, then we shall have to evolve some rules and regulations for a proper adjustment so that the mission may not suffer. Suffer from indifference or negligence or abhorrance of the nonacarya disciples of Swami Maharaja.

[Guest guest]

I am Sridhar Maharaja disciple and was present at the events you talk about here. If Ritvik was so important, then there is only one Guru - Krsna! After all, then every Guru is ritvik for the previous, meaning there never were any Gurus except Krsna. That is mayavada, like the ritvik position after the disappearance of the Guru would continue. It does not, as my Guru Maharaja made very clear in that speech. For those eager to read it up for themselves, there is the literal rendering in the "Sermons of the Guardian of Devotion" part one. The ritvik position of Sagar Maharaja was only in regards to my Guru and not SP.

His name was not changed by him, Ksama das, but by my guru, who only gave them sannyas names. This was something SP did not consider, since it can be a bit confusing, having sannyasis with suddenly other names, in the numbers they were in Iskcon in those days. They all wanted sannyas, so they could have positions.

Anyway, Ritviks are the ones who don't want to surrender and don't want to take responsibility, still trying to load all on SP's shoulders. Has he not done enough?

It is a Christian idea, that still wants to put Jesus on the cross. No wonder, with mostly catholics and Protestants in Iskcon, who cannot leave the Christian idea of not taking responsibility for their own actions.

[Guest guest]

beeing a westerner who chants harekrsna coming from christian background, i have sadly to say that you are right

 

very often we remain catholics even if we accept harekrsna

[Guruvani]

So, it is quite a curious observation here to see that so-called followers of Sridhar Maharaja now want to make him culpible for encouraging homosexuals, deviants, thieves, crooks, hoodlums, thugs and other such unfit and unqualified aspiring neophytes to become guru?

 

Do you really understand the implications here of accusing Sridhar Maharaja of endorsing a long list of fallen gurus who have wreaked havoc and disaster on the movement? Do you see how this makes Sridhar Maharaja responsible for much of this ? Is that really a service to Sridhar Maharaja; to try and prove that he endorsed and sponsored the guruship of such perons as Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, Jayatirtha, Bhagavan, Hansadutta etc. etc.?

 

Is that what you think about Sridhar Maharaja? Is your idea of him that he is a party to the madness and mayhem that was wrought upon ISKCON by the guru conspiracy?

 

Where does that leave Sridhar Maharaja in the history books of the sampradaya? Will the history books show that he was a party to the monstrosities that occured in ISKCON after the disappearnce of Srila Prabhupada?

[Guruvani]

Anyway, despite what Sridhar Maharaja might have said about this or about that, it is the guidance and design of Srila Prabhupada that should be followed in ISKCON.

We don't try to make Prabhupada's standards and practices applicable to the Math of Sridhar Maharaja, neither should we try to make Sridhar Maharaja the head of ISKCON.

 

Eventually, all these instructions he gave about ISKCON changed when the GBC failed to accept Sridhar Maharaja as an alternative to an ISKCON guru. In time Sridhar Maharaja could see the flaws in the ISKCON guru system and in the end he completely withdrew all his sanction and authority from anyone except Govinda Maharaja.

 

I rather like to think that Sridhar Maharaja had a higher vision and better thinking that to endorse homosexuals, pedophiles, crooks, capitalists and thieves as Acharyas of the Krishna conciousness movement.

[Guruvani]

Please show the world any statement by Srila Prabhupada that the ritvik system would stop after his departure.

Please show anywhere, anyhow and in anyway that after the July 9 directive the ritvik system should at any time in the future be terminated.

You cannot. There is no such statement by Srila Prabhupada. He established a revised ritvik system in response to the GBC's inquiry as to how initiations would go on after his departure and Prabhupada never said one word to the effect that at a later date this system would be rejected.

 

Without any statement from Prabhupada about the future abandonment of the ritivk system, there is no alternative but to continue the system unobstructed by the opinions or policies of anyone who opposes it.

[Guest guest]

first you use Sridhar Maharaja to support your thesis

when you feel that you are not able to convince others..: "who cares about Sridhar maharaja?"

 

Srila Sridhar maharaja speaks about the absolute principle of living siksha and diksha authentic guru, not supporting cheaters

 

if we had ritviks, there's no prooof that "homosexuals, pedophiles, crooks, capitalists and thieves" would have not been ritvik instead of gurus... the authority on innocent devotees would be exactly the same...

 

 

[BDas]

In the quotes I posted Sridhara Maharaja is explaining Guru tattva (ultimately Krsna is the guru) and the absolute and relitive aspects of that principle. He is no more responsible for the deviations of Iskcon gurus than was Prabhupada who gave them rank and power in the first place.

 

Keeping in the spirit of Ksamabuddhi/ Gandiva/ Guruvani's important principle that one leave aside hearsay and bias by posting only the acharyas message word for word here is Sridhara Maharaja's explaination on why he repeatedly said that the local acharyas should initiate and only special persons or those that could not find faith in those acharyas should be brought to him for initiation. /Brahma

 

 

Devotee: About your personal case, that you are the higher seed present, and you are giving authorization to other sannyasis to initiate also in your presence. How can I see this, as your humility and detachment to accept new disciples? How can I see this?

 

Sridhara Maharaja: Following the general custom, and that "something is better than nothing." With this policy. They can give and do according to the necessity. Some sort of light in comparison with darkness is something. In the name of Mahaprabhu let it go. Then, their Lord is there, and He will manage everything. If there is any gap in the process, if we are sincere, He will manage. If we have no black motive of exploitation and are sincere, if any amendment is necessary, He is there and He will back them.

 

 

Devotee: The diksa may be given by a lower seed, but doesn't your siksa as a siksa-guru bring that seed to a higher plane also?

 

 

Sridhara Maharaja: If their disciples are not allowed siksa there may be an underlying motive that they are not fit to approach such high thought. With this motive, if the guru checks the disciple's ambition, that won't be bad. But if knowing that "I'm not able to satisfy his enquiry," and by a policy that the guru's prestige may go down the guru checks the disciple from connecting with the higher source, then that will be offense. Sincerity is the standard of measurement.

 

 

Devotee: For example, I will be preaching in Brazil, and people who at that time I will be preaching will approach me to seek for a guru, and I'm trying to be your disciple, and I will try to direct them to you. I ask you, if you can accept these people as disciples, and another person can give them the initiation, but they can be your disciples. Because I trust completely in you, but I do know if the other person can deliver them.

 

 

Sridhara Maharaja: I don't consider myself able to take responsibility of so many. It is not a pleasure to take responsibility. So I'm unable, I'm unfit to take responsibility of so many.

So, I have spoken to those that are affectionate to me, that I can't have connection with many. Only very special case, if you find, then you may take to me. Otherwise, you do. As much you know, you help them. But always know that you are dealing with the infinite. Not anything that has got limit. As much as you can.

 

 

The sky is there, the birds are flying, as much as the bird can. He can not finish the sky. So, we are also doing like that, as much as we have got capacity, we shall do that type of duty to others, help others. Save yourself, and save others, as much as you can.

 

 

Acharya's position is Upadhi: designation

 

....................

Sridhara Maharaja: "I am acarya. I am holding acaryas position. I should be given some position, some respect." Acarya's position is also upadi, designation, rank. Rank should be respected. The designation is there and this protocol we should observe.

 

 

Jayadwaita Maharaja: But aside from giving respect, is it just a matter of formality?

 

 

Sridhara Maharaja: If you think the person who is doing the function of acarya, his adhikara is lower than yours, still you should formally give special honor to him because he is in that position.

 

Devotee: Son may be a judge and pleader may be father. Father must give respect to the chair.

 

 

Sridhara Maharaja: Give respect to the chair, so something like that adjustment should be kept in the mission. When you are alone-the acarya brother and non-acarya brother-you can mix freely. You can give a slap to his cheek.

 

 

Devotee: Laughter.

 

Sridhara Maharaja: But, when publicly amongst his disciples, you must show proper respect. That sort of behavior, conduct should be maintained to keep up the peace

 

Jayadwaita Maharaja: How should one himself understand? Suppose I am empowered by my Guru Maharaja to initiate disciples, so they are offering me worship, nikunjo yuno rati keli siddhai, but how am I to understand they are saying like this, that I am in this position? Does it mean that because I have been given that position of guru actually I have got?

 

 

Sridhara Maharaja: aham veti suko veti vyaso veti na veti va. Sridhar Swami wrote the commentary of Bhagavatam and it was written differently from the previous commentary, so the scholars refused to accept that commentary as universal, especially the Sankarikes. Then they put it to a test, that it should be kept in the temple of Viswanatha and if he, Kasi Viswanatha Mahadev Siva, accepts then we shall all accept the commentary. Then from the Siva temple the revelation came, the purpose, the real purpose of Bhagavatam is very difficult to conceive. Only these few of us we know the real purpose: aham veti Mahadeva says. I know the real, the true purpose of Bhagavatam, suko veti, and Sukadeva the disciple, son of Vyasadeva, he knows it thoroughly. aham veti suko veti vyaso veti na veti va and the author of Bhagavatam, he may know or not. Do you follow? Then your question is answered.

 

 

Jayadwaita Maharaja: How, I don't understand?

 

Sridhara Maharaja: Mahaprabhu, when He is teaching Sanatana Goswami, He says that Sanatana, Krsna is going to give His kindness to you through Me. I am talking to you like a man to man and I feel many things passing through Me to you. I feel that much, but I do not know that I have myself got that thing. Do you follow? Then solution.

 

 

Jayadwaita Maharaja: Yes, that's very clear. Thank you very much.

 

Sridhara Maharaja: It is possible, it is wonderful, but still we find it is not understandable.

 

 

Jayadwaita Maharaja: That last explanation, is that the explanation of transparent via medium that the guru these new gurus they must be transparent and then it will work.

 

 

Sridhara Maharaja: A sincere man when he has taken a particular charge, he will make out what to do-the the duty of that post, if sincere, and God will help. God helps those who help themselves. You have taken the charge and charge has not come from chance, but there is some underground link. Then if you try to do then help will come to you. If he is not a cheat and has sincerely taken the charge of the master, He will come to you with all his might: "Do this. I am helping, I am at your back." When we are all sincere, these things will happen like this.

[theist]

Babhru, Rahsomon indeed. How perfectly fitting. When two people hear a third speaking and try to recount what they heard they will ineviably interject their own version. That will be colored by what they wanted to hear, the amount of emphasis their minds will place on a certain portion of the speech over another and so many like considerations. Very relative.

 

I think Kurosawa was a partial cinematic expansion of Shakespear, but that's just me and I have no shastra to back it up. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Anyway I always wonder at the need for such "he said thisno, he said that discussions." They are never resolved. If we want to know how transcendental knowledge is transmitted why not just look in the books like Bg, SB &CC.Almost every page and certainly every story contains the answer.

[Guest guest]

Ksambuddhi - how unfortunate it is that you choose to villify others rather than simply trying to serve.

 

I was aware of Sudhir Maharaja's comments prior to your posting them here. I don't find his comments to be anything that impels me to question my Guru Maharaja's standing or my commitment to him and his mission.

 

His presentation of history is skewed at best. The incident with the disciple is totally misrepreseted and never caused a riff with Sridhara Maharaja and Tripurari Maharaja - that is a fabrication and mistelling of the actual history. The disciple in question was not qualified and had a 'jumping' mentality. It was never a matter of possession or some conflict regarding where to surrender. Tripurari Maharaja knows his place and he certainly deferred in all cases to Sridhara Maharaja as his worshipable Guru. Please ask him if you are sincere and wish to know the truth of the matter rather than spreading lies and trying to stir up controversy.

 

Tripurari Maharaja was never rejected by Sridhara Maharaja, the truth is just the opposite - he received his full backing and continues to up to this day. My Guru Maharaja honors the decision of Sridhara Maharaja regarding Govinda Maharaja and he has the highest regard for him - there is no controversy about this even though you would like to make it out that there is.

 

Regarding Tripurari Maharaja's relationship with Jagadananda - you again misrepresent facts. Have you read the Bhagavad Gita edition that you are taking exception to? Jagadananda is a sanskrit scholar and he served as the sanskrit editor for the edition. Rather than trying to imply that this makes the edition faulty based on your perception of Jagadananda why not show us what it is exactly in the edition that you find objectionable? Do you know that Jagadananda has been serving on the staff of Mandala for many years and that he was doing so with the full knowledge and blessings of Sripad Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja? You may wish to find fault with Jagadananda based on his history but I find this disingenuous on your part. He is a devotee with a high degree of integrity and honesty and he is dedicated to Mahaprabhu. Will you deny him the opportunity to serve based on your perceptions? No one can change or progress? I find that type of idea to be very unpalatable.

 

Srila Prabhupada engaged his god brother Dr. Kapoor in service when others within Gaudiya Matha would not even talk to him because he was considered to be a 'sahajiya'. Will you fault your Guru Maharaja for such actions?

 

The idea that Jagadananda is someone who is to be avoided as if he has a contagious virus called sahajism that will definitely infect those who choose to associate with him is nonsense. Do you remember the story about Srila Bhaktisiddhanta paying obeisances at a distance to Bhaktivinoda Thakur and his guest commenting about what a devout son he had and then Bhaktivinoda telling that gentleman that his son had made a vow not to come within 100 paces of a sahajiya and that is why he was paying his obeisances from a distance? Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati seem to have had a different standard in this regard but do you think that this fact makes them any less connected?

 

At any rate, this thread was started by you for what purpose? Apparently to promote your ritvik ideas and try to show that they are also supported by Sridhara Maharaja. It's quite clear that very few if any of those who follow Sridhara Maharaja agree with your assessment of his statements.

 

What exactly is your point about Sridhara Maharaja backing Kirtananda, Hansadutta, etc.? It sounds like the same arguments that others use to villify him (such as Puranjana). The historical record is clear. It's only an issue for those who think that an acharya is omniscient or that a Guru cannot fall down. These ideas aren't supported by sastra nor were they supported by Sridhara Maharaja.

 

It's very unbecoming of you to go around on the internet and make a campaign against anyone who doesn't support your ritvik thesis. You will not find any supporters in Govinda Maharaja's camp for this idea either. It is philosophically off and most will consider it a deviation. In the words of Sridhara Maharaja, 'We are not Sikhs.' This was his response to the idea when it surfaced just after the disappearance of his Guru Maharaja. No one will stand up and say they are qualified like their own Guru. Still the point remains that this science is spread through Guru Parampara and that literally means 'one after the other'. Who will be so bold as to claim qualification? Still the service must go on.

 

You make the challenge of, 'show me where Srila Prabhupada said ritvik will stop'. I say that this is simply rhetoric and misses the much bigger picture. Based on a legalistic interpretation of one letter that says henceforth this whole 'philosophy' hinges. It has no backing in scripture, no precedence in the Sampradaya, no backing from the books of Srila Prabhupada or from his many letters. It all hinges on two documents - his will and the July 9th letter. On the basis of that and a questionable interpretation of those documents the ritvik proponents wish the followers of Srila Prabhupada to reject the hundreds of quotes to the contrary with regard to the parampara and how the movement would proceed into the future. I personaly don't buy it - but I will not make a campaign of slander or villification against those that find some merit in this line of reasoning.

 

I understand the psychology behind it - so many disappointments in those who would be Guru lined up against the shining example of Srila Prabhupada. Still disappoinment and wishful thinking don't add up to siddhanta no matter how you slice it. Srila Prabhupada told his disciples that the principle is that Guru, sadhu and sastra will be in agreement and that this is the principle for ascertaining truth. Where is the sastric backing?

 

Don't bother - really this just goes on and on and the same old arguments get stated over and over. I have no problem with devotees following their hearts. Just give up Vaishnava ninda. Chant and hear about Sri Krsna and serve his devotees. Pretty simple really. Associate with those you find inspiring and avoid those that you don't. End of story.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[theist]

>>Don't bother - really this just goes on and on and the same old arguments get stated over and over. I have no problem with devotees following their hearts. Just give up Vaishnava ninda. Chant and hear about Sri Krsna and serve his devotees. Pretty simple really. Associate with those you find inspiring and avoid those that you don't. End of story.<<

 

This is the only resolution to this ritvik matter.

 

 

[stonehearted]

I don't know about his being any sort of incarnation of Shakespeare, but he was certainly a creative genius. And regarding K and S, Throne of Blood was a chilling adaptation of Macbeth, and Ran was a marvelous retelling of King Lear.

[theist]

I must be careful not to start rumors, but I did hear that someone said that so and so said he might just have been an expansion of Shakespear.

 

I salute you in your cinematic tastes Babhru. Thumbs up.

[stonehearted]

Dear Ksamabuddhi, like Audarya-lila, I also find it unfortunate that someone with your experience chooses to spend so much time vilifying others rather than finding a way to more directly serve Mahaprabhu's mission. I also have been aware of Sudhir Maharaja's site for some time. I have read his postings there, and, like many others, I admire his intelligence and cleverness. I last met him when he was still in ISKCON, although I believe he had already taken Srila Sridhar Maharaja's association and siksa. I spent a morning with him and Bhakticharu Maharaja at Srutakirti's apartment in LA, and I found him inspiring, charming, and funny. I think we have all found inspiration in the adventures he, Ghanasyama (now Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja) and others had behind the Iron Curtain. Still, I find that much of what he writes about those outside SCSM reflects his physical isolation, as it seems based in rumor and gossip. And, as I've said before, I certainly understand his extraordinary loyalty to Govinda Maharaj.

 

Regarding Tripurari Maharaja, I simply don't buy Sudhira's assertion that Sridhar Maharaja rejected him (and others whom Sudhir chooses to vilify). The incident with the disciple who wanted diska from Sridhar Maharaja can be easily understood in light of Sridhar Maharaja's own instruction: "[if] they are not fit to approach such high thought [the higher seed]. With this motive, if the guru checks the disciple's ambition, that won't be bad." If Tripurari Maharaja checked this disciple because he judged him (or her) unfit, who are you and I to say differently? I have heard from Tripurari Maharaja himself of his regard for Govinda Maharaja and his regard for Sridhar Maharaja's decision that Govinda Maharaja be his successor. To say that Sridhar Maharaja has cut Triprari Maharaja off cannot be supported by the facts. As Srila Prabhupada often said, "phalena pariciyate": judge a thing by its results. Because of his devotion to Srila Prabhupada and to Sridhar Maharaja, so many of our godbrothers and godsisters have been attracted to Tripurari Maharaja's company, have taken trouble to hear from him, help his mission in different ways, and take his association when they can. Some of these are devotees whose names we have heard for decades and who still serve honorably, both inside ISKCON and outside.

 

With regard to Tripurari Maharaja's dealings with Jagadananda, I think there's a good deal of misunderstanding or misinformation. Yes, Jagadananda left Srila Prabhupada's mission and went elsewhere. And yes, by his own admission, when he was a babaji he was a zealous critic of Srila Sarasvati Thakura and the line coming from him. And of course Srila Sridhar Maharaj, like all Sarasvata Gaudiyas was more than peeved with him. However, over the years, and through the association of devotees such as Tripurari Maharaja and others, he has changed his view and gained a renewed appreciation for the reforms brought by Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Of course, due partly to his academic training and bent of mind, he still asks questions about some things, but it's fair to say, I think, that he has rethought his rejection of Sarasvati Thakur and Srila Prabhupada of 25 years ago. And I also know a little about his involvement with Bhagavad-gita: Its Feeling and Philosophy, since I had the privilege of providing the final English edit to that book. Jagadananda served as a Sanskrit resource and offered a few editing suggestions but did not influence the substance.

 

Which brings me to Tripurari Maharaja's Bhagavad-gita. I went through the entire manuscript a couple of times as I worked on it, and if I found anything I had a question about, I researched it--didn't even have to ask Maharaja about them, but found confirmation on my own. Before you say anything about the book, I'd advise you to read it, as have so many of our godbrothers, some of whom are leaders in ISKCON and outside. All have given it and Maharaja unreserved praise.

 

You and I have already gone around the room a couple of times about the ritvik proposal, and I don't see any benefit in rehashing things there. We've all heard the arguments, and while I also understand the thinking behind the idea and respect so many of its advocates, I still maintain that if Srila Prabhupada had intended that this be the system in ISCKON in perpetuity, he would have stated this so clearly that no one could have questioned it. As I've said, he would have made it as plain as four regulative principles and 16 rounds.

 

Generally, though, I find your campaign against those who don't accept the ritvik idea, and especially your public campign against Tripurari Maharaja ill advised. Srila Sridhar Maharaja himself said, "If you think the person who is doing the function of acarya, his adhikara is lower than yours, still you should formally give special honor to him because he is in that position. . . . Give respect to the chair, so something like that adjustment should be kept in the mission. When you are alone-the acarya brother and non-acarya brother-you can mix freely. You can give a slap to his cheek. . . . But, when publicly amongst his disciples, you must show proper respect. That sort of behavior, conduct should be maintained to keep up the peace." I have suggested before that you convey your concerns to Tripurari Maharaja privately, in keeping with this instruction from Sridhar Maharaja, but you apparently have a better idea.

 

I believe you would be well served to take the good advice given by Audaya-lila. However, since you probably consider such advice to be impertinent coming from him, please accept it from me, who according to your earlier admonitions in an earlier thread, you should consider your senior godbrother (I feel icky even writing that): I have no problem with devotees following their hearts. Just give up Vaishnava ninda. Chant and hear about Sri Krsna and serve his devotees. Pretty simple really. Associate with those you find inspiring and avoid those that you don't. End of story.

 

Yours in service,

Babhru

[Guruvani]

It's not easy to say what I want to say in a few short paragraphs, but I will try. I don't like to write long posts because most people have a tendency to just skip over them, as I skip over most long posts that are addressed to me. I did breeeze through the previous posts, but I don't have a great attention span for hearing my sincerity maligned and impuned.

 

My recent flurry of activity in regards to my assault on Tripurari Maharaja was inspired by the writtings of himself and his editor Brahma das that have appeared on VNN. Brahma das felt it necessary to write some anti-ritvik propaganda and Tripurari Maharaja felt it necessary to speak about the virtues of giving sannyasa to women and being more sympathetic and accomodating to homosexuals and lesbians.

 

I disagree with all these points and since I had some spare time on my hands I figured I would write some material in response to this nonsense. Maybe I am a male chauvinist (not likely since i am a doting father to two precious girls) but I am just completly outraged and disgusted that Tripurari Maharaja would want to stir up a controversy over these issues. If he and Brahma das aren't ready for the reaction to stirring up these hornets nests, then maybe they should stay away from controversial topics.

 

I oppose the tinkering and adultering of the movement apart from what Prabhupada established. I challenge those who are on a mission to adulterate the movement Srila Prabhupada started in the western world.

 

I am just reacting to the propaganda that Tripurari Maharaja and Brahma das have been publishing on the internet lately. I am the reaction to their propaganda.

If they can't handle the fog of war then maybe they shouldn't start a fight.

 

Leave ritvik alone. Stop faultfinding and criticizing the ritvik movement unless you are ready to do battle. There are many very fixed up disciples of Srila Prabhupada who advocate the ritvik movement. Adri-dharan and Madhu Pandit are perhaps the most prolific and accomplished. Madhu Pandit is president of the Bangalore temple and Adri-dharan was the temple president in Calcutta.

Yashodananda Prabhu (Yashodanandan Swami) is also a leader of the ritivk movement and he and some other very fixed up Prabhupada disciples have started a society for Krishna consciounsess based upon the ritivk principle.

 

I would never attempt to be a lone proponent of the ritvik system. If it was just me , I would not even atttempt to promote the ritivk system for ISKCON. There are actually many disciples of Prabhupada who promote the ritvik system. There must be something to it in the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Some people attack others is very subtle, scholary terms, while others are more open and honest about their intentions. I guess I am just more blunt and abrasive in my approach and it appears more offensive than the subtle sophisticated way of attacking the faith of others. Either way, the assualt on the faith of others will always be met with resistance and reaction.

 

If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. If you can't handle the fog of war, then don't enter the fight.

[gHari]

My only concern is for the innocent who ask questions like "What is a ritvik" or "Who is the new Acarya".

 

Except for them, the issue is dead to me.

 

There is no war. It was simply a suicide bombing; that's been so obvious from day one. Now we have a soapbox planted right in the middle of our living room, and the corpse rants on. Geez, Louise, if it had any other interest it might be tolerable.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

It will help us in our pursuit of Nama Bhajan.You are truly living up to your nama and giving us a glimpse of what audarya-fellowship spiritual disscussion forums should be all about. Hare Krishna

 

 

"I understand the psychology behind it - so many disappointments in those who would be Guru lined up against the shining example of Srila Prabhupada. Still disappoinment and wishful thinking don't add up to siddhanta no matter how you slice it. Srila Prabhupada told his disciples that the principle is that Guru, sadhu and sastra will be in agreement and that this is the principle for ascertaining truth. Where is the sastric backing?

 

Don't bother - really this just goes on and on and the same old arguments get stated over and over. I have no problem with devotees following their hearts. Just give up Vaishnava ninda. Chant and hear about Sri Krsna and serve his devotees. Pretty simple really. Associate with those you find inspiring and avoid those that you don't. End of story. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guruvani]

Ritvik might be a dead issue to you, but it is alive and well in the Krishna consciousness movement and gaining ground everyday. Your Ostrich with head in a hole approach does not mean that the ritvik system is not going to someday be a larger and more encompassing movement than what is known as ISKCON today. Ritvik will survive the demise of all the old Gaudiya Math sannyasis who are presently trying to obstruct it's progress. It will also survive the attempt to kill it by the GBC and ISKCON gurus.

It will be around long after all of those who tried to destroy it are gone. Generation after generation of devotees will accept Prabhupada as their spiritual master and someday Prabhupada will have a following as great as that of Jesus. The guru fiasco in ISKCON is like a time-bomb just waiting to blow the whole guru movement out of the water. ISKCON has a small cult following of the gurus, but in the big picture they have an insignificant number of followers in the greater congregation of the Krishna consciousness movement. Most devotees live outside of ISKCON now and they don't buy into the guru conspiracy for one minute.

[gHari]

Ostrich? I showed you the fatal logical flaw in the foundation. You and the others are too dull-witted to see it. Therefore ritvik will die because only fools are capable of not seeing the sham. Your 'movement' was dead in the water at the first mention of the word ritvik by Srila Prabhupada. In order to push your fatwah you will have to deride every rational vaishnava on the planet. Then there will be no ritvik or even Krsna for you.

 

When you're sitting in a bar chasing skirts in your old age, remember, you heard it first here.

[Guest guest]

 

When you're sitting in a bar chasing skirts in your old age, remember, you heard it first here.

 

 

gHari, how apalling. Speaking of Vaishnava ninda. Please, all of us...avoid these personal attacks.

[Guruvani]

 

When you're sitting in a bar chasing skirts in your old age, remember, you heard it first here.

 

 

I'm too old and ugly to chase women anyway and why would I need to go to a stinky, smelly, nasty bar to chase skirts when you can join internet dating services and meet lots of nice women?

 

Even if I did end up in that condition, I think it would be better than being a pseudo-guru contributing to the ruination of ISKCON. One thing about me, I gave 8 good years to the movement and any nonsense rascaldom that I have have engaged in since then was not in the guise of a leader or guru of ISKCON.

 

I left the movement a long time ago and married a deaf girl who was mentally handicapped. We had three beautiful and healthy children who are honor roll students and very popular in school. Though we split up and got divorced(her move), we are still good friends and we still have a lot of love for each other.

I am not going to enumerate my own faults here, keeping in mind the advice of Chanakya Pandit to not reveal one's own faults.

 

I don't mind the personal attacks. Like I said before, I am rather thick skinned and these personal insults just roll off my back like a watershed.

 

Please insult me some more. I need it. Hearing praise of oneself is poison to the heart.

[gHari]

That was not Vaishnava-ninda; that was a description of the result of Vaishnava-ninda. Elephant hell.

 

My friend will avoid this end, I have no worry. His heart is still in the right place.

[Guest guest]

 

That was not Vaishnava-ninda; that was a description of the result of Vaishnava-ninda. Elephant hell.

 

My friend will avoid this end, I have no worry. His heart is still in the right place.

 

 

Nonsense, gHari. This was written in the form of a personal attack: "When you're sitting in a bar chasing skirts in your old age, remember, you heard it first here." This is not a general statement, but a personal one. You also called him and others who believe as he does, "dull- witted" and "fools". Please watch your mouth, when you are addressing Vaishnavas.

 

If you have spoken this way simply out of foolish haste, I suggest you apologize. Ksamabuddhi Prabhu is my Godbrother, and I won't tolerate anyone speaking to him in that way.