Should there be only one Acharya?

[I_love_krishna_]

Sorry to tell you this, but in reality you do not realize that you are actually are in Maya when you try to judge others.

 

Who is the true controller? it is not you, not me, not guruvani nor is it some one else. I do not mean to tell it to you, because I heard that one who takes the name of krishna must be the highest of all human beings.

 

If you are a true devotee of krishna, I plead with you that please be "self-situated" and remain unattached to the offenses made by others to you and your guru.

 

It is the characteristic of a true friend of krishna as said by the shastras.

 

I say this not because of my ego, however, such a thing still exists in "me" , but because I see all of you being dragged into the mire of this material existence which we call Maya.

 

Please, do not try to call people names, it is sad to see people do so over some thing as friendly as a religion.

 

Thank you.

 

[I_love_krishna_]

Please ask forgiveness from the krishna that dwells in other devotee's hearts.

 

I read a story about a great devotee, Adi Shankaracharya, who was a great devotee of krishna.

 

He saw krishna in everything... even in a beggar.

 

One day when Adi Shankara was walking by in the forest, An untouchable came in front of him.

 

In Ancient India, it is said to be an aparada for untouchables to come in front of a learned brahmin.

 

When Shankaracharya saw this man, his senses gave away to the society. Then , the beggar said "You say that krishna lives in every one's heart, why then do you show resent for me?" . At that instance, Adi Shankaracharya bowed to the krishna in his heart. Then, he let him pass.

 

In reality, that beggar was not a beggar at all, but krishna himself.

 

Please Salute to the krishna in every one's heart, because that is what we truly should do , each and every moment for our lives.

 

thank you

[Guruvani]

One thing about me, it is impossible to offend me or hurt my feelings by calling me names and slandering me. I play hardball and I expect to get it as good as I give. I have lived a hard life. I am very thick skinned. One thing that I always try to remember is that a real Vaishnava never takes offense. I am not a real Vaishnava by no stretch of the imagination, but I admire that quality in the Vaishnavas and I try to keep that as one of my principles to live by. It helps me greatly in my practical daily life. Though I am not very popular on the internet, in my everyday dealings at work with my co-workers I am well liked and admired for being so tolerant, kind and pleasant.

I guess when it comes to my spiritual beliefs and my ritvik views I am quite despised and ridiculed, but I am prepared for the persecution and resentment that comes with being a ritvik in the world of a thousand gurus.

 

For those who think that insulting me, calling me names and threatening me ( I don't scare easily) is going to hurt me, silence me or intimidate me you should know that you are just wasting your time.

 

I am a single father that has been raising three beautiful children alone for over 7 years. I cook, clean, do housework and manage this family by myself. I have been raising my youngest daughter alone since she was in diapers. I have done my share of changing diapers and caring for small children. I am very gentle person at home. My kids love me a lot. My little girl Kamala Manjari is very close to me. We are very close and my kids are my everything.

Despite what I might appear like in this forum, I am actually a Mr. Mom. My life is all about raising three precious children and I wouldn't trade it for all the wealth in the Universe.

I might appear as a very cold and cruel person in these forums, but actually nothing could be further from the truth.

My ritvik beliefs are not meant to hurt or offend others. It is just something I actually believe in and I can't help what my heart forces me to believe.

If others are offended by my faith in ritvik doctrine, then I am sorry, but I am not going to change or compromise my own beliefs to satisfy the demands of others.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

[theist]

Well let's put ourselves in guestji's position for a moment. He hears his guru being slandered and he reacts. He can't remain silent. to remain silent in such a situation is not a vaisnava principle. We can comment on his response, fair enough, but can we criticize him for responding?

 

There may be some legitimate issues regarding Narayana Maharaja and his relationship and that of his followers with Iskcon.

 

I don't like the continual refrain from Narayana Maharaja's folks that Prabhupada's disciples did not really accept the gayatri mantra because of the tape issue and therefore need to go to Narayana to get it. I also don't like the fact that one of Prabhupada's disciples can longer go to the Berkeley temple because he likes Narayana Maharaja. He helped establish that temple.

 

But Guruvani does take some jabs at Narayana's students and that should stop as well.

 

Anyway i won't get into who started what but if both sides would please grow up a little and respect each individuals right to disagree with them, and hold their tongues or watch their wording a bit when talking about the others guru's the atmosphere would be better.

[I_love_krishna_]

Precisely, thats what I said, which is do not get offended by views of other individuals, because, the "getting offended" part would be nothing but maya.

 

 

[stonehearted]

"guest": so i like to speak about krsna

 

So why not do so? How does your anonymous sniping glorify Krishna? How does it help me in my own struggle to advance in Krishna consciousness? Do you think it somehow neutralizes the offenses you see in Ksamabuddhi's posts? (It doesn't--it just compunds them.) Do you think you're the only one who finds offenses against devotees you revere in his posts? (The evidence is that you're certainly not.) Do you think that calling him names will stop him? (Forget it! He thrives on that. You just get him charged up.)

 

Do us all a big favor (yourself especially) and tell us what you have realized about Krishna consciousness. Ask us questions that plague you so we can delve into our own realization and find ways to make Krishna consciousness more real and less theoretical to all of us. If you can't find any way to read Ksamabuddhi's posts without wanting to cut his tongue out, then skip them, as many of us would like to just skip the anonyomous "guest" posts (and his are really easy to spot).

[Guest guest]

osama b.l. means... fanatic .. and in the context was easy to understand

 

there's no absolutely need that you justify your life , i have no difficulty to think of you as a very good person...

 

and i sincerely imagine a very tender and lovely scene of you with your kids

 

but i think that you, perhaps only in this forum, miss a little of an important quality of a vaishnava......

 

discrimination

 

in your personal idea:

 

Prabhupada ....... or HELL!!

 

i have read you many time throwing in the rubbish, without too much compliments : all iskcon gurus, all gaudya math, all great saints from the bible (as mythologic), all other religions etc. putting labels also in the people discussing with you and using these labels to defeat them in other occasions :"ah, you think like that because you are disciple of a cheater, or because you are indian, because you are gaudya math etc."

 

and this is not correct and it seems like a husband with a jealous wife that needs to hear by him how the other woman are ugly to be reassured about his love and appreciation

 

it seems to me that making big critics about others, is for you a way to give more glory to srila prabhupada..

 

please accept these words as a attempt to suggest you something good... and surely only in the plane of the dealings in this forum.. surely you live a very nice life as a devotee of srikrsna

 

......

 

(answering another devotee and appreciating his defense, i am not a disciple of srila narayana maharaja, but i am very disturbed when he and others are heavily and easily criticized without ever an attempt to say the same concepts in a less "hurting" way)

[Guest guest]

you have to respect others, and you must promote respect, that one's in maya is no big news

[Guruvani]

When the followers of Narayana Maharaja ever come to terms with the cold cruel reality that Ritvik doctrine is alive and well in the Krishna conciousness movement and learn how to respect the faith of others, they might find that those whom they presently criticize and condemn will not be defending their beliefs at the cost of Narayana Maharaja's prestige.

Ritvik doctrine is here to stay. It is actually becoming more and more popular around the movement. There are even new sects and organizations that are being established quite significantly under the principle of Ritvik doctrine.

 

One of ISKCON's largest and most magnificent temples (Bangalore, India) is a Ritvik temple with thousands in the congregation. Some senior disciples of Srila Prabhupada with good standing and admirable qualities have recently formed a new society and GBC type committee dedicated to the Ritvik doctrine.

 

Ritvik is not going away. It is a religion to a large section of devotees. It is amazing how some so-called devotees are so sensitive to Christian beliefs and the Christian people, yet they are so cruel and demeaning to devotees who believe in Prabhuapda and his ritvik doctrine.

They are crazy about Jesus and crazy about Christianity, but they hate and despise Ritvik doctrine that advocates the saviorhood of Srila Prabhupada. This is indeed a very curious mentality - to demean and belittle the devotees of Prabhupada and be so defensive and sensitive to the Jesus freaks.

 

Narayana Maharaja and his troupe have been slandering and demeaning the ritvik doctrine and it's followers since the day Prabhupada left. What do they expect? Do they want Ritvik believers to just lay down and play dead while they slander and smear their heart felt beliefs?

 

Narayana Maharaja started this war with his big mouth attacking ritvik faith and it's followers. He is getting the results of his slandering and villifying the faith of Prabhupada devotees who don't wan't to hear his brand of dogma.

 

When Narayana Maharaja and his horde can learn to respect other religions and other faiths, including the ritvik religion of Prabhupada, they might find a change in the way they are viewed by other devotees. As long as he and his followers persevere to condemn, criticize and ridicule the Ritvik religion, they should expect that they are going to be classified as fanatic zealots undeserving of the respect they demand.

 

I can't speak for others, but for myself I can say that I can accept Narayana Maharaja as an acharya in his own right and still believe in the ritvik doctrine of Prabhupada. Those who know me know that i am one of the original followers of Sridhar Maharaja amongst his American devotees. I also recognize and respect Govinda Maharaja as a guru and acharya in his own right. Still, I am a ritvik proponent for ISKCON, and that does not even mean to say that I think ISKCON is any better or greater than other Vaishnava societies around the world.

 

Advocating Ritvik doctrine for ISKCON does not mean that there are no other acharyas or gurus that have come out of the Gaudiya Math and it's branches. It just means that we believe that ritvik is the best system for ISKCON, based on the premise that formal initiation is not necessarily the real initiation as compared to the initiation into transcendental knowledge. Diksha is indespensible in the pursuit of Krishna consciouness. The real issue is; what actually constitutes spiritual initiation? Srila Prabhupada expressed many times that formal initiation was not really the criterian for spiritual initiation. Ritivk doctrine is based on the premise that formal initiation is not exclusively spiritual initiation, rather a religious ceremony of inducting one formally into the Vaishnava society.

 

Therefore, this battle of the belligerants will continune until the day that Narayana Maharaja and his followers can learn to respect the faith of others and stop their effort to discredit and demean the Ritvik faith that is growing, expanding and flourishing all over the world.

 

The ball is in your court. If you want respect you need to learn to stop attacking the faith of others. If you don't stop, then you don't deserve any respect at all and you will get exactly what you deserve in kind.

[Bhaktavasya]

 

So now you're calling it the ritvik religion! Just FYI, both the Narayana Maharaj disciples who I've spoken to over the years here on the island and Prabhupad disciples never, ever talk about ritvik except on one occasion when it was brought up when a bunch of devotees got together for prasadam and kirtan, as in a passing comment and my godsister said, "Oh, ritvik, smitvik, who cares anyway? It's just an excuse for some people to fight over." Everyone present agreed, the kirtan commenced and it has never been brought up since.

 

I remember that you were hyped up about this ritvik business since way back on the vnn forum days years ago and after you fell off of the roof of your house you pledged never to get into it again on the internet because it caused so much dissension. What is the point of fighting over this 'doctrine' on numerous threads? It's just another way to forget Krishna, imho.

 

[Guruvani]

[Message deleted - Please refrain from making derogatory remarks especially in relation to Spiritual Masters of other devotees. - admin5]

[gHari]

<CENter><img src=http://home.primus.ca/~caitanya/bizarro.jpg></center>

[Mxyzptlk]

Guruvani,

 

Narayana Maharaja and his troupe have been slandering and demeaning the ritvik doctrine and it's followers since the day Prabhupada left.

 

That's an outright lie. He didn't initiate his first Western disciple until around 1989. I personally know the first couple of Prabhupada disciples who began to meet with Srila Narayana Maharaja, and that wasn't until the early to mid 80's. Ritvik was a non-issue. It wasn't until he was asked about the issue that he offered his opinion. And that wasn't until the mid to late 90's. Even Srila B.P Puri Maharaja said, sometime in the mid 90's, that "ritvik" would mean the death of our Sampradaya.

 

Ritviks, beginning with Nityananda's crew at VVR in the 80's were heavily blaspheming Srila Sridhara Maharaja. But now, oh. Some out-of-context quote was discovered and now some ritviks are favorable towards Srila Sridhara Maharaja. Still, many ritviks continue to blaspheme Gaudiya Math gurus, simply because they do not endorse post-samadhi ritvik.

 

As far as "living guru", someone recently posted a quote from Srila Sridhara Maharaja wherein he used that expression. An excerpt from Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati explaining how sadhakas cannot fully understand the words of departed pure devotees without the help of other pure devotees has been posted here. The proof that we need the guidance from pure devotees is that we are all reading Srila Prabhupada's books and letters, the exact same words, yet still disagreeing, arriving at different conclusions. If Srila Prabhupada were personally present, one could approach him, enquire submissively, and the whole matter would be resolved instantly. Bas. But since that is no longer possible, we must turn to other Sadhus, others who are more advanced than ourselves. To dismiss, criticize, and insult a pure devotee like Srila Narayana Maharaja simply because he doesn't endorse your ritvik stance is quite offensive for some of us to hear.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja didn't create a disturbance within Iskcon. That's the propaganda, but the facts are skewed. He remained at his Math for many years, and then gradually Iskcon devotees began approaching him. He didn't canvass, he didn't twist anyone's arm. The principle of accepting a siksa guru is there throughout Srila Prabhupada's books. If you choose not to accept him, fine. But please do not engage in such harsh criticism and Vaishnava ninda. If you are not inclined to have his sanga, then fine, remain far away. I have my opinions about various gurus as well as regular devotees, but I try to refrain from engaging in Vaishnava ninda. I believe there was already a topic discussed recently about how such criticisms and fault-finding will simply backfire and become a part of your being. Those "faults" which you perceive will become a part of you.

 

If this forum is going to degenerate into open blasphemy of persons whom I regard as Saints, (even if I'm not personally receiving siksa from them at the moment), then I will leave this place for good. The ninda you are engaged in, based on lies, or at the very best, half-truths, is a sure destroyer of one's devotional creeper. Anyone who follows Srila Prabhupada should be most cautious about this mad-elephant offense, otherwise their goal of pleasing and attaining Srila Prabhupada will prove to be in vain, fruitless.

 

I know you have your strong opinions, Guruvani. I think we all do to a certain extent. But please try to refrain from the type of blasphemy I just read from you in this thread, as well as others.

 

Please don't become defensive and commit further offenses. Try to be a gentleman as well as a model disciple of Srila Prabhupada and speak honestly, and speak nicely. I agree with the others that the guest shouldn't have called you Osama, especially hiding as a guest. Still, I believe the offenses you are committing are far more severe and damaging (to anyone who reads them) than what the guest said.

 

I've seen quite a few devotees leave as of late, including Raga. Some openly start a thread saying they are leaving this place. Others just quietly exit out the back door. This forum has potential for doing some good. But, the mad elephant offense will nullify that in a heartbeat.

 

Please give this some serious consideration. I've read many of your posts, and I've seen you contradict yourself so many times, and flip-flop on your position again and again. I'm not into debating "ritvik", as this has been done ad infinitum over the years, and the arguments you give are nothing new. Neither is the blasphemy, which is so very typical of the ritvik camp.

 

I have no interest in tit-for-tat debates with you on this matter. I like to check in here and read what people have to say from time to time, and mostly just observe. But, if this thread is a sign of things to come, if this is what it has come to, and if no one else seems to object, (apart from the guest, Bhaktavasya prabhu, and Theist), then I guess I will be unbookmarking this site in short order.

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada, all glories to Srila Sridhara Maharaja, all glories to Srila B.P. Puri Maharaja, all glories to Srila Narayana Maharaja, all glories to Srila Govinda Maharaja, all glories to Srila B.V. Puri Maharaja, all glories to Srila Tirtha Maharaja, and all glories to the humble Vaishnavas everywhere. The Sankirtan Movement is still in full swing, there are indeed pure devotees walking this Earth, spreading the holy name around. It's not all doom and gloom like the picture you seem to paint.

 

Hare Krsna!

[Mxyzptlk]

Excerpts from: Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura,

The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6

 

 

There have, however, already arisen serious

misunderstandings regarding the proper interpretation of the

life and teachings of Srila Thakur Bhaktivinode. Those who

suppose they understand the meaning of his message

without securing the guiding grace of the Acarya are

disposed to unduly favour the methods of empiric study of his

writings. There are persons who have got by heart almost

everything that he wrote without being able to catch the least

particle of his meaning. Such study cannot benefit those who

are not prepared to act up to the instructions lucidly conveyed

by his words.

 

Thakur Bhaktivinode is acknowledged by all his sincere

followers as possessing the above powers of the pure

devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the

lips of a pure devotee....

If no help from the pure devotee is sought the works of Thakur

Bhaktivinode will be grossly misunderstood by their readers.

The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always

directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee

if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the

deluding results of his wrong method of study.

 

The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the

conditioned soul in the form of the Name on the lips of the

sadhu. This is the key to the whole position. The method

offered by Thakur Bhaktivinode is identical with the object of

the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of

the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they

can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the

word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than

the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute.

 

Thakur Bhaktivinode's greatest gift to the world consists in

this; that he has brought about the appearance of those pure

devotees who are, at present, carrying on the movement of

unalloyed devotion to the Feet of Shree Krishna by their own

wholetime spiritual service of the Divinity....

Those who pretend to recognise the Divine Mission of

Thakur Bhaktivinode without aspiring to the unconditional

service of those pure souls who really follow the teachings of

the Thakur by the method enjoined by the scriptures and

explained by Thakur Bhaktivinode in a way that is so

eminently suited to the requirements of the sophisticated

mentality of the present Age, only deceive themselves and

their willing victims by their hypocritical professions and

performances. These persons must not be confounded with

the bonafide members of the flock.

 

 

The complete article may be viewed here.

[I_love_krishna_]

Rules! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

"All glories to Srila Prabhupada, all glories to Srila Sridhara Maharaja, all glories to Srila B.P. Puri Maharaja, all glories to Srila Narayana Maharaja, all glories to Srila Govinda Maharaja, all glories to Srila B.V. Puri Maharaja, all glories to Srila Tirtha Maharaja, and all glories to the humble Vaishnavas everywhere. The Sankirtan Movement is still in full swing, there are indeed pure devotees walking this Earth, spreading the holy name around. It's not all doom and gloom like the picture you seem to paint."

 

 

extremely good... hare krsna!!!

[Guruvani]

The time table for the exact day that Narayana Maharaja started offending discples of Prabhupada by condemning them and the ritvik system that Prabhupada established in ISKCON is not the real issue here. The issue is that he has always rejected the rtivik concept and has even made statements to the effect that the ritvik system is totally apasampradaya even when it was being used during the presence of Srila Prabhupada. He has contradicted himself on that issue several times. He has sometimes said that during the presence of Prabhupada it was possible to have a ritvik system but then turned around and said that you cannot give mantra diksha by tape recorder.

 

Arguing over the exact date when Narayana Maharaja offended Prabhupada and a large number of Prabhupada disciples by speaking out against the ritvik system is not the issue. The issue is that at some time he did and continues to do so down to the present day. Now he has created a large following of neophyte disciples who continuously and constantly make negative propaganda against a large section of devotees who follow the ritvik system of Srila Prabhupada.

 

My point is that the time line is not the issue. It is the criticizing and condemning of so many devotees whose faith is in Prabhupada alone, much like the Christians faith in Jesus as their saviour, that is the issue.

 

I don't consider that my showing this to be a fault is "blasphemy" of a pure devotee. I am simply stating the facts that Narayana Maharaja and his followers all speak ill of the ritvik system and those who follow it.

 

Some senior sannyasi of the Gaudiya Math has equated Narayana Maharaja and his followers to sahajiyas. That is not my doing. Apparently, it is not just the ritvik devotees who don't believe that Narayana Maharaja has a proper approach to preaching Krishna consciousness.

 

The whole camp of Govinda Maharaja feels that Narayana Maharaja is a big offender to Sridhar Maharaja. There is a history that could be narrated to explain that issue.

 

Don't try to make me out to be the only person in the world who doesn't accept Narayana Maharaja as anything more than an old Neophyte. Narayana Maharaja has created a bitter opposition in many many devotees by his personality and his statements that go back a long time.

 

My attitude is that I am simply trying to open the eyes of the followers of Narayana Maharaja that they need to mind their own business, follow their own guru and stop attacking and demeaning the devotees who don't feel like they do about Narayana Maharaja. They need to stop "anti-ritvik" propaganda because ritivk is not going away and is to be equated with a whole religion unto itself. It is offesive to attack the faith and religions of other people.

 

 

All this rivalry and infighting of devotees is exactly what Srila Prabhupaa tried to avoid by establishing the ritvik system. During his presence he kept all the western devotees away from all the Gaudiya Math types with the exception of Sridhar Maharaja alone. That was his wish, that was his order. After he left there began a gradual violatation of those orders to the point where today we have a hellish fratricidal war going on inside the Krishna consciousness movement do to the introduction of those persons whom Prabhupada prohibited.

 

Prabhupada founded this international movement and it has to be conducted under his guidance alone.

[theist]

admin5

[Message deleted - Please refrain from making derogatory remarks especially in relation to Spiritual Masters of other devotees. - admin5]

 

 

 

dandavat pranams

 

[stonehearted]

Thanks, mixy, for this post. My understanding of the facts, especially regarding Narayana Maharaja's involvement with ISKCON, is the same as yours. And thanks for indirectly calling me out.

 

For the record, I have objected repeatedly and loudly to vaishnava-ninda on these forums and have contemplated, sometimes aloud, and sometimes to myself, leaving because this makes the forums less than conducive to productive vaishnava discourse. I am here mainly because several devotees I respect have encouraged my continuing participation. But when the risk completely obscures the benefit, I have to recognize that I actually have a lot of projects to attend to.

 

Also for the record, my objection to the Osama remark was not meant as a defense of Ksamabuddhi. I also agree with you, thiest, Bhaktvasya, and our guest that his criticism of Narayana Maharaja and other Gaudiya vaishnavas unacceptable, his stances inconsistent (at best). I simply didn't want to be responsible for provoking him to making further such posts. I'm waiting for this thread to die, but it won't if we keep yelling at K. every time he pees us off.

 

I also have strong opinions, but I usually choose to temper the manner in which I present them. That's a deliberate rhetorical choice, not wishy-washy thinking, as some accuse me of. My desire is to engage others in meaningful conversation, to see what I can draw out and what I can share in exchange. I sense that others have other reasons for spending so much time here. There's no counting the times I've checked my gut response to avoid offense. (Even then, I've been accused of being arrogant, snide, nasty, and elitist. Just see how thin is my disguise of being a vaishnava!)

 

I have also pointed out the futility of debating the ritvik issue. In fact, any posts I make usually are aimed at the manner in which the conversation is being conducted. I know there's no way anyone here will change Ksamabuddhi's mind, and I know that, absent any new argument, I'm unlikely to be moved to buy into it. However, Im always open to the possiblilty of some new argument and interested to see where it might take the discussion (sorry--my academic training is in rhetoric, and there's probably a good reason for that). Listen, I live on the same island as Nityananda. I see him fairly frequently. We don't discuss the ritvik issue because there's no point.

[Guruvani]

Let me rephrase the statement that got deleted.

 

My point was that Narayana Maharaja advocates a "living guru" philosophy. Therefore, after he passes away he will no longer be relevant, he will no longer be "guru" by dint of his own philosophy.

My wording was perhaps a little abrasive, but I was trying to make the point that the "living guru" philosophy is going to work against him someday to relegate Narayana Maharaja as irrelevant after his passing.

 

According to his philosophy, only a "living guru" can be diksha or siksha guru. Therefore when he is passed on, he will no longer be guru according to his own teachings and his disciples will have to seek out a "living sadhu" to explain to them what the guru was trying to teach. Or, does that philosophy only apply to the disciples of Prabhupada?

 

Where does the "living guru" philosophy eventally start to negate the contributions of all the predecessor acharyas?

[Bhaktavasya]

 

I solidly agree with you regarding the excellence of mixy's post and that you have tried in a gentlemanly way discourage Vaisnava aparadha and point out the inconsistencies of Ksamabuddhi/Guruvan's statements.

 

You are correct to say that he will never change his point of view, despite the mountians of evidence from the previous acharyas and best to let the thread die out (no reponses) except that in the brief time I've been here I've noticed that he just starts another thread with the same infamatory topic.

 

My understanding is that Talasiga and Peter/valaya have been banned for a long time for whatever reasons but they have never lashed out at other people's gurus and told concocted untruths as K. is hell-bent on doing.

 

 

 

[theist]

I happen to share that view. I will consider Narayana Maharaja's contribution to world wide understanding of vaisnavism relevant and current after his disappearance.

 

But consider also the feelings of his disciples. Who wants to talk about the inevitable disappearance of their beloved Guru Maharaja? If you feel pressed to point out this fact would it not be best to do so in a less direct way? Present that truth in a more oblique way, without personalizing it, and it may be more productive.

 

Sometimes its best to be blunt. Sometimes its best to just lay the truth out there in a way that won't cause a pyscho/emotional defensive screen to immediately go up, which insures that the validity of you point will not even be heard.

 

This also goes both ways. It is also painful to hear Prabhupada relegated to a past somewhat irrelevant position, often thinnly covered up with a veneer of condenscending praise.

 

Q.What's worse than a mad elephant stomping in your devotional garden?

 

 

 

A.Two mad elephants fighting each other in your devotional garden.

 

Look. This is a big planet with billions of people in human forms that have never heard of Krsna. There is room for another million acaryas to operate without bumping into each and squabbling over turf. Somebody rub you the wrong way? Move. We aren't in bamboo bodies that must tolerate the friction until a fire is sparked.

 

BTW I know this lesson applies to me as well.

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Ksambuddhi, I'm going to follow my own advise and not respond to any of ritvik madness again, but I have to make one last comment on your statement:

"Now he (NM) has created a large following of neophyte disciples who continuously and constantly make negative propaganda against a large section of devotees who follow the ritvik system of Srila Prabhupad."

 

Why can't you accept the testimony of people who have said here that ritvik is a non-issue amongst Prabhupad disciples and NM disciples whom we have met and know. There is a NM disicple who I meet up with ususally on the street and every single time over the years we ALWAYS start talking about Krishna. I am almost forced to because she is so respectful of me just because I am a Prabhupad disciple; she is an example of other disciples I've met who are so very respectful to all SP disciples, even the ones like me who are fallen, and she brings out the Krishna Katha in me, right there on the street. The only thing she says about her guru is where he is or that she just saw him, although her love for him shines on her face.

 

You are the one who is constantly creating a disturbance amongst Vaisnavas of various branches when in reality the majority of devotees, regardless of who their guru is, want to come together to glorify Radha and Krishna and taste some nectar. What you are 'constantly and continuously' presenting is dry sawdust; why not keep it to yourself.

 

 

[theist]

I wasn't around when they were banned. Perhaps that could be revisted. That's between them and JNdas of course but I have never found him to be unreasonable. I know he doesn't want to be a babysitter on these forums. And I suspect he is rather busy but it may be the time to raise that point if they are even still around.

 

That would also necessitate an abandonment of whatever conduct got them banned in the first place of course.

[theist]

Couple weeks back I was sitting reading a book at the university and a young disciple of Narayana Maharaja approached me with a phamphlet. We talked for 20 minutes about Jaiva Dharma etc. It was a nice exchange. He carried that same light that I used to see in Prabhupada's fresh young students. You know the glow. All inspired and wanting to share it.

 

It was really a 'pick me up' for me.