Prabhupada's back up system

[Guruvani]

The genie is out of the bottle! The Pandora's box has been opened! There ain't no goin' back to rtvik for ISKCON!

 

 

I don't want to keep harping on the rtvik issue as if I am only a one dimensional mind that cannot accomodate alternatives and the fact that the rtvik system has been dead in ISKCON for about 26 years. After this long, it might be way more than wishful thinking to ever imagine that rtvik doctrine will ever make a comeback in ISKCON. I can also accomodate the guru system as the back-up system to a failed rtvik doctrine in ISKCON.

 

I think that the rtvik advocates have some reasonable evidence to support their position. They are not pulling this idea out of thin air without any clue of reason. Prabhupada could have easily prevented this whole rtvik confusion with ONE SIMPLE STATEMENT. You would have thought that after establishing this rtvik system in ISKCON he would have taken care before he passed away to warn us all not to try and continue this system after his disappearance.

 

Was Prabhupada so inattentive and reckless to forget to recall the gayatri tape and dismantle the rtvik system before he left? Instead, he passed on leaving his last official declaration as the rtvik appointments.

 

That being said, I have no doubts that Prabhupada did not have a back-up system in place. That would be something like we have today - his leading disciples becoming initiating gurus etc. There are many references in his teachings to support a guru system of succession.

I can accept that, though I think it was plan B if plan A failed. Plan A was the rtvik system, and not by preference of desire but by necessity.

When Prabhupada left in 1977, none of his disciples were really mature enough or pure enough to assume the role of guru. Back then we all thought we were so advanced and pure. We thought we were fit to be guru - 26 years later we can look back and see that we were not - 26 years later maybe some have actually come close to fitting the bill.

 

Prabhupada did not leave ISKCON with a rtvik system in place and no instructions to ever dismantle it because that was his preferred option. He left ISKCON with a rtvik system out of the force of no alternative. There was no alternative because there really were no disciples ready to be gurus in the true sense of sad-guru. What to do? Prabhupada did what he had to do as he had done all along in the work of establishing the Krishna consciousness movement, he made adjustments; time and circumstance created the necessity and he surrendered to that despite his own inner agony that indeed this was somewhat of a cheating process - a deviation from the tradition. Do you think Prabhupada did not agonize over these compromises and adjustments he made knowing full well that his Godbrothers and their disciples would not understand and make campaigns against the ISKCON system? Do you think that Prabhupada did not foresee a conflict between the ISKCON and his Godbrothers and their followers? Do you think that did not trouble him? Do you think that Prabhupada did not suffer much to spread Krishna consciousness all over the world?

 

Sure, Prabhupada had a back-up to the rtvik system. But, foreseeing such tragedy and turmoil that came out of the premature guru system he did what he could to try and avoid that kind of disaster in ISKCON.

 

There was no simple solution. Prabhupada had created so many devotees in such a short time and there was really none qualified to fill his shoes or even assume such great authority. Think back! When Prabhupada left this world his senior disciples were only 8 or ten years removed from total debauchery and degradation? They were ready to be gurus? My gosh........do you really think so? Did Prabhupada actually appoint 11 American boys as guru after they had been devotees for no more than 10 years? (Earth to ET.... ET call home!)

For that matter in 1977 after the movement was a mere 11 years old, was anybody ready to be guru? Does a hippy become a pure devotee acharya in 10 years?

 

Well, it's been alomst 26 years since Prabhupada has gone and maybe now some of these Godbrothers are mature enough and experienced enough to squeek by trying to be guru, but back in 1977 that was not the situation.

 

Prabhupada probably did leave ISKCON with the rtvik system and intentions for it to remain in effect, but what is done is done and we are now left with a guru system and all the complexities it invloves. ISKCON has dwindled down to a mere shadow of it's former greatness in terms of the unity, harmony, cohesion, cooperation, expansion and missionary work through book distribution etc.

 

Sure, Prabhupada had a back-up to the rtvik system and it has it's merits as well. What we can't deny is the tragedy and turmoil the movement has undergone in the course of getting to a reasonably stable society without one massive disaster after another.

 

You can be guru! Be guru! Judgement awaits another day as to whether you are right or you are wrong. I am not the judge of that. It is Prabhupada you must face up to someday to account for yourself.

[Guest guest]

look on disciples SBST. boy. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Subala]

I don't know why so much noise out of this issue,

 

Look in a root of the system

 

1. Defenition of guru is he has disciple/disciples

2. Every acarya/guru in our sampradaya has/had disciples

3. Every acarya/guru has told us - amara ajnaya.. becomes Guru and liberate people.

4. Devotees who not ready to surrender were/will always question this. It is a matter of faith and every underline question they ask has one root question - Do I want to surrender.

 

If you cannot submit your ego to anotehr man - you can never surrender to God. (as christians say - this is statement for our christian friends)

 

4. What is ISKCON guru system - to protect SP teachings from people who will come later and tell us - Let me tell you how ISKCOn should be run.... thats simple.

 

Prabhupada wanted to protect the message he brought. What the best way to do it? I see only 1 - create a system which unites all guru's in one Governing Body. This Entity will keep SP teachings intact even if it not perfectly organized it will become perfect in course of time.

 

The only force which can destroy ISKCON is ISKCON itself with all this far out ideas how it should be and not how SP wanted it to be.

 

Anyway this is is way too much. Everyone has it's own idea how ISKCON should be run.

 

My personal solution is - chant, read, preach, become pure devotee, teach other to do the same, never leave ISKCON doesn't matter how bad people think it is. You become example how it should be and people will follow your example.

 

[Subala]

PS. There is always great disturbance after Acarya leaves...

 

PSS. reg back-up idea - I agree there is no back up system in our sampradaya. it is like this - What if Krishna is not God?! No problem we have back up - we make someone else.... doesn't make sense. What is process of devotional service is not perfect - Oh np we have back up. back up philosophy is bogus.

[Guruvani]

I would have expected to hear this kind of opinion from an ISKCON guru. I hardly think a disciple of an ISKCON guru is objective enough to make a fair evaluation of this.

 

I have already had both my initiations from Srila Prabhupada in ISKCON before he passed away. My rtvik faith is not something I want because I am some uninitiated devotee who wants to be a disciple of Prabhupada after he is gone.

 

I personally have no preference for the rtvik system apart from the fact that Prabhupada wanted it to remain in ISKCON for all time.

 

My concern is for the good of others, I have nothing to profit from it.

[gHari]

I don't know, but one might consider that if he wants to be a big brute guru, and he knows he can never achieve such status within ISKCON for whatever reasons, then his only chance would be in the fringes as an r-guru. Isn't it.

 

It does seem that I saw Ksamabuddhi at the second coming with all his disciples, offering puja to his glorious self. I couldn't tell from my vantage point whether he was regular or r-rated.

 

gHari

[Guruvani]

I am quite tickled to find that you did not understand my vision of the second-coming of ISKCON as nothing more than a silly joke. I will never be any kind of guru in ISKCON or outside of ISKCON. Being guru is not even the remotest possibility for me. I support Prabhupada's version of rtvik ISKCON and I have have absolutely no desire or interest to be guru. My mission is to try and become a disciple someday - being guru is not in the cards for me.

I have three children I am raising. My mission is to try and instill some Krishna consciousness in them and hope that someday they might take to Krishna consciousness seriously.

Me guru? never!

[theist]

" I will never be any kind of guru in ISKCON or outside of ISKCON."

 

 

Lord Caitanya to the Brahman Kurma:“Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gétä and Srimad-Bhägavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.” CC Madhya 7.128

 

 

 

One can hardly avoid becoming some kind of guru as he leaves his association with this material world. Just by doing what is necessary to leave this world and to love Krsna you are setting the proper example for life, isn't that a type of guru? Or just by asking others to chant Hare Krsna and read Bg and SB if nothing else.

 

Your aspiring to be a disciple of a bone fide guru is an example already.

 

Guru doesn't just refer to a big name preacher sitting on a vyasasana receiving worship. To desire that position is a type of disqualification.

 

Just don't try to hit me up for some daksina. /images/graemlins/wink.gif