vani or vapuh- which? both?

[theist]

Let's explore this a bit. This is SP purport to SB 4.28.47

 

-------------------

 

Figuratively the queen is supposed to be the disciple of the king; thus when the mortal body of the spiritual master expires, his disciples should cry exactly as the queen cries when the king leaves his body. However, the disciple and spiritual master are never separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the spiritual master. This is called the association of väni (words). Physical presence is called vapuù. As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master.

 

[Guruvani]

this is the real message new devotees should be getting.

they can serve Prabhuapda by serving his instructions. this purport in essence says that one can approach and serve Prabhupada even today by following his instructions that are in his books for the whole world to follow.

 

formal initiation is no where near as important as the spiritual initiation of receiving Prabhuapda's instructions.

[theist]

I agree Guruvani. I am left wondering at the motive of someone who tries to present Srila Prabhupada as distant and unknowable in the name of "not jumping over." At the same time if there are genuninely enlighten disciples of Srila Prabhupada they should not be neglected in the name ritvik. Actually that person's vapuh and Srila Prabhupada's vani will co-exist in a complimentary way, one revealing the other I feel.

 

--------------------------

 

When one becomes serious to follow the mission of the spiritual master, his resolution is tantamount to seeing the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As explained before, this means meeting the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the instruction of the spiritual master. This is technically called väni-sevä. Srila Viçvanätha Cakravarté Thäkura states in his Bhagavad-gétä commentary on the verse vyavasäyätmikä buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana (Bhagavad-gétä As It Is 2.41) that one should serve the words of the spiritual master. The disciple must stick to whatever the spiritual master orders. Simply by following on that line, one sees the Supreme Personality of Godhead … if one sticks to the principles enunciated by the spiritual master, somehow or other he is in association with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Since the Lord is in the heart, He can advise a sincere disciple from within.… In conclusion, if a disciple is very serious to execute the mission of the spiritual master, he immediately associates with the Supreme Personality of Godhead by väëé or vapuù. This is the only secret of success in seeing the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Instead of being eager to see the Lord in some bush in Vrndävana while at the same time engaging in sense gratification, if one instead sticks to the principle of following the words of the spiritual master, he will see the Supreme Lord without difficulty.SB 4.28.51

[stonehearted]

Any sincere disciple will only engage those in his or her care in serving the mission of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his own spiritual master. Any sincere devotee will see himself or herself as a servant to those who come under his or her care. This is true regardless of any label--guru, temple president, head pujari, book distributor, or whatever. Srila Prabhupada told us that he saw us as having been sent by his spiritual master to help him fulfill his guru-maharaja's orders.

 

A sincere disciple does nothing except on behalf of his or her guru. Recently, a member of the San Diego ISKCON community was accepted by Radhanath Swami as a disciple. Here's how he put it in his letter to her: On behalf of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and our beloved Acaryas, I am honored to accept you as a duly initiated disciple." I like the approach he takes here (it is, of course, pretty characteristic of Radhanath Maharaj).

 

I have written before that I think it may be perfectly appropriate for someone to accept another devotee as a disciple on behalf of Srila Prabhupada, without calling it a ritvik (now so highly charged a term) initiation. It would depend on the "guru" or "ritvik's" own attitude toward such service and his relationship with the prospective disciple. I know of at least one official ISKCON guru who apparently does something very much like this, from what I can see. I also kjnow of another official ISKCON guru who gave mantra-diksa to a couple I know, who had recieved harinama from Srila Prabhupada, without any "I'm-your-guru" strings attached.

[theist]

I have a related question that perhaps Babhru and others will help me with. I will start another thread for it.

[Guest guest]

Vani, Vapu - what's the issue? If you read the books sincerely you will be impelled to seek out good company - in other words to find the person bhagavata. Two things - are there - the book Bhagavata and the person Bhagavata. I have quoted Sridhara Maharaja in this regard before - he says one is the passive agent and one is the active agent.

 

Advanced devotees can read the scriptures and draw new light from them by dint of their own standing in Bhakti and their ability to hear Caitya Guru.

 

The issue, if there indeed is one, is that some people seem to want read the books and ignore the devotees or the need to get personal instructions with regard to how to apply what's in the books to their own lives and to their particular circumstance. If anyone simply reads the books with an open heart they will be impelled from within to seek out advanced devotees who can help them. This advice can't be missed by any sincere reader of the books.

 

So if the books are all one needs - then why are there so many interpretations of what is in the books and what it means? Why are there controversies over siddhanta (such as fall/no fall, siksha guru/diksha guru, vani/vapuh)? Over form issues (dress, ashrama, institution, time, place, circumstance)? The problem is that we are conditioned souls and our reading and understanding of the books will be colored by that conditioning. Already we see that someone has some idea and they scour through the Veda base looking for quotes that support their thesis. Never mind context or contradictory statements and sorting it all out. This is a big problem in the devotional community.

 

My personal take on the whole affair is that everyone should simply be honest about where their at and do the needful to try to advance. Here is a quote from the last recorded conversation between Srila Prabhupada and Sridhara Maharaja. Please note that even an acharya feels the need for advanced association, what to speak of us?

 

"Srila Prabhupada: This is my earnest desire. Since you could not go around the world and preach, at least stay there and people will come to you. I shall make that arrangement. If you stay, then it will be helpful to me also. Sometimes I need to consult with someone and there is no one. There is no one that I can consult. I feel this deficiency very greatly."

 

So Srila Prabhupada sees it as a great deficiency that he is lacking an advanced devotee with whom he can regularly consult - how can we begin to think that we are not in the same need? Srila Prahbupada had so many books - his Guru Maharaja's books, books by Jiva Gowami, Rupa Goswami, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur etc. - still he had need to consult with an advanced devotee. I really feel that this is pretty much common sense and should be blatantly obvious to one and all.

 

I have not seen any aversion to reading Srila Prabhupada's books or any of our acharyas books - the only aversion seems to be to getting personal guidance.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

 

 

[Guruvani]

One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the çästric injunctions. Çré Jéva Gosvämé advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.

 

CC Adi 1 text35 purport

[stonehearted]

Audarya-lila: Vani, Vapu - what's the issue? If you read the books sincerely you will be impelled to seek out good company - in other words to find the person bhagavata. Two things - are there - the book Bhagavata and the person Bhagavata. I have quoted Sridhara Maharaja in this regard before - he says one is the passive agent and one is the active agent.

 

Indeed-we see nothing in the books except devotees seeking the association of other devotees, for friendship and for guidance. That's the example. Even Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu sought the company of advanced devotees, some to teach, such as the gosvamis, some to associate with in different ways, and some to learn from, such as Isvara Puri and Ramananda Raya. He took initiation from Isvara Puri, whom He saw as the best representative of Madhavendra Puri, and He asked Ramananda to instruct Him in life's ultimate goal. And with Ramananda, Shikhi Mahiti, and Madhavi devi, He relished the bliss of remembering Krishna's intimate pastimes in Vraja.

 

I have a an old friend on this island who never associates with other devotees, as far as I can tell. He's always been a little eccentric and aloof. Although he joined in '71 or '72, the first devotee born and raised on the Big Island, he was never initiated because he could just never stand being around other devotees. Some time over the last 20 years, he gave himself initation as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada (didn't even seek out a ritvik to give it to him). He keeps chanting and reading the books, but Srila Prabhupada repeatedly exhorted us to keep association with other devotees, to work together to spread Krishna conscoiusness and encourage each other. I don't see any viable alternative to finding more advanced devotees and hearing from them, helping them in their service, and imbibing from them their taste (in every sense) for krishna consciousness.

 

And guess what? When we find ourselves in Krishna's Bhauma-Vrindavan pastimes, and then in Goloka, we'll associate only with Krishna's deovtees and serve under thier direction. Now's our chance to get some practice.

 

Do you think that when Srila Prabhupada said there'd be another ISKCON in the spritual sky that he was talking about GBC meetings, ishtagosthis, temple commanders, and brahmacharis looking down their noses at women and householders? Forget it!

[theist]

Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Thäkura Prabhupäda passed away from this material world on the last day of December, 1936, I still consider His Divine Grace to be always present with me by his väni, his words. There are two ways of association—by väni and by vapuù. Väni means words, and vapuù means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but väni continues to exist eternally. Therefore we must take advantage of the väni, not the physical presence. The Bhagavad-gétä, for example, is the väni of Lord Krsna. Although Krsna was personally present five thousand years ago and is no longer physically present from the materialistic point of view, the Bhagavad-gétä continues.

[theist]

Even when in the physical presence of one's guru what does one serve other than his instructions. It's through his instructions that his will is expressed.

 

It's not that in his physical presence there is no vani.

 

Is this correct?

[stonehearted]

theist: Even when in the physical presence of one's guru what does one serve other than his instructions. It's through his instructions that his will is expressed.

 

It's not that is his physical presence there is no vani.

 

Is this correct?

 

Of course it is. That's the point of the physical association, to more deeply imbibe his mood of service. That is the qualification Srila Prabhupada ascribed to himself--that he was eager to hear. And afterward, he continued to associate with his Godbrothers in different ways, hearing from them, helping them with their service, associating with them as friends. When they saw that the Gaudiya Math had lost much of its vigor, he had an idea to start a new organization, with, he said, Srila Sridhar Maharaja as the head. Later, he actually helped Keshava Maharaja start Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. After leaving family life, he lived and worked with several of his Godbrothers on their projects while pursuing his own. And when he came to the West, he repeatedly wrote many Godbrothers and their disciples to prod them to come and do the same--not necessarily to work under him, but to work cooperatively. It's too bad no one responded them and that they seem to have "gotten it" only in the last 10 or 12 years.

 

My point is that there's no difference between associating with the spiritual master by vani or vapu. And that if we miss (or ignore) his instruction to associate with advanced devotees, there's something missing in our vani association.

 

Srila Prabhupada had a rather rigid standard for accepting disciples. They had to actually approach him and ask him to accep them. They also had to demonstrate that they were willing and able to control their senses and minds, and that they were willing and able to associate and work with (which means under the direction of) his disciples to spread Lord Chaitanya's sankirtan movement. I think that the idea that we have significant association simply by imagining it may ultimately disappoint us.

[Guruvani]

I remember reading somewhere in CC where Prabhuapda says that a neophyte devotee should actually serve the spiritual master from a distance, because if he gets too close he might start to see the spiritual master as an ordinary human. then he says something about serving the vani is more important than serving the vapuh.

 

anybody know where that reference is right off the bat?

[theist]

 

This final sütra declares that if a person hears the Närada-bhakti-sütra with faith, then Närada blesses him with devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This means that Närada Muni is present and acting through the teachings of the sütras. The same potent blessing Närada has given to many persons enabling them to become staunch bhaktas are available even now through his väni, or teachings.

 

 

That reference sounds familar Guruvani but I don't remember where. vedabase is my memory. If I see it I will post it.

[Guruvani]

 

TEXT 116

saba çrotä-gaëera kari caraëa vandana

e saba siddhänta çuna, kari’ eka mana

SYNONYMS

saba—all; çrotä-gaëera—of the hearers; kari—I do; caraëa—to the lotus feet; vandana—praying; e—these; saba—all; siddhänta—conclusions; çuna—please hear; kari’—making; eka—one; mana—mind.

TRANSLATION

I offer my obeisances unto the feet of all who hear or read this discourse. Kindly hear with attention the conclusion of all these statements.

PURPORT

Prostrating himself at the feet of his readers, the author of Çré Caitanya-caritämåta entreats them in all humility to hear with rapt attention these conclusive arguments regarding the Absolute Truth. One should not fail to hear such arguments, for only by such knowledge can one perfectly know Kåñëa.

 

 

Krishna das Kaviraja prostrates himself before those who READ this book. The purport by Prabhupada equates reading to be the same as hearing.

 

[AncientMariner]

 

 

 

 

The best I can do is chant Hare Krishna and follow the regulative principles. I don't know if that qualifies as serving a spiritual master but that is all I can do now. Maybe when I get older I will be able to do more.

[Guest guest]

CC 2.19.151

brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavyan jiva

guru krishna prasade paya bhakti lata bija

 

While continously wandering throughout the innumerable material universes some

extremly fortunate jivas

obtain

the seed

of the desire

to serve

the Lord

with affection,

by the causeless mercy

of Krishna,

mercy

which takes the form of guru.

 

the fool

of Her Majesty

 

[Guest guest]

A Living Sadhu

A Conversation with Sri Srimad

Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada always emphasized that he was eternally present in his books, instructions, tapes, and letters. So when you say we should take association of a sadhu can we do that through Srila Prabhupada's books?

 

Gour Govinda Swami: If Prabhupada says he is there, then you try to see him, associate with him, and listen from him. Do you see Prabhupada? Do you hear from Prabhupada? Is he speaking to you?

 

Devotee: Through his books.

 

Gour Govinda Swami: Through his books, yes. All sadhus speak through their books. Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Bhaktivinode Thakur, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, and Srila Prabhupada all say that they speak through books. This is not a new thing. This is our Vaisnava procedure. But you should see him. Can you see Bhaktivinode Thakur? Can you see Jiva Goswami? You may say, "Oh I have read their books; I have their association." That won't help you.

 

You cannot understand what they have said merely by reading their books. Your consciousness is very low, so you cannot understand their words. They are very, very merciful, but you should follow the proper path. If you are intelligent you will understand how they are still here, not only in the form of their books but also they are here. You should see them. Why are you thinking so foolishly? So many books were already there, so why has Srila Prabhupada said this? You are thinking, "We need only to read books. There is no need of associating with a sadhu who is physically present. Is there any sadhu? No, there is no sadhu at all."

 

Your motto is, "Seeing is believing." You cannot see, so you cannot believe. Because you are a conditioned soul, your vision is defective. You cannot see a sadhu. Krishna is there. Can you see Him? No, you cannot, because you are not endowed with proper vision. First develop the proper vision and then you can see Krishna. Then you can see how a sadhu is there. It is not a fact that sadhus are not present. How is everything going on? How does the sun rise, the wind blow, and Indra give rain? All these things are going on. No sadhu? No Krishna?

 

It's nonsense, foolishness. We are so proud and puffed up. We are identifying our self as the body, mind, and false ego. We think we are very great, so we say, "Oh, there is no sadhu." We are in the category of identification with the body and mind. We have not come to the beginning of the stage of purity. No!

 

Devotee: So we have to associate with a living sadhu?

 

Gour Govinda Swami: Definitely. There is always one there. But he is not a cheap person. Such a person is very rare. If you can get his mercy then you can see him. Otherwise, by your own effort and perception, you cannot see him. No, no, no.

 

You always think that you are drasta, the seer, and that the sadhu is drsta, the one to be seen. Everyone is like this. They think they are the seers. But it is just the reverse. You are to be seen and they are the seers. Think this over very deeply. I think you cannot completely understand what I say. We always think that we are the seer and that they are to be seen, but this is not a fact. It is just the reverse. They are the seers and we are to be seen.

 

Devotee: How are we seen by the sadhu? By our service?

 

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. The sadhu is the seer. If he showers his mercy upon you, he sees you. If you receive that merciful glance then you are very fortunate. However, you are in the category of bodily consciousness. How can you have it? Guru is the manifestation of the Supersoul, caitya-guru, in the heart. He manifests a body and appears. He knows your heart.

 

Devotee: I don't quite understand.

 

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, try to understand. As I told you, just hear patiently. A new bhakta cannot understand it because it is a topic of the highest class. You are in pre-primary class, how can you understand? You are not even in the primary class. How can you understand this topic of the highest class? Just accept the bona fide authorities. That will help you. The teacher says, "Two plus two is four." The primary school student accepts it. If the teacher asks the child, "What is two plus two?" The child will reply, "Two plus two is four."

 

"Why is two plus two four?"

 

"My teacher says." He will answer like this. That means he has accepted authority. This is the only principle in the beginning. How is two plus two four? Why not three or five? That will be explained in a higher mathematics class, not in the beginning. You have to have patience and get a promotion. My guru-maharaja says in his purport that the beginning is purity of consciousness. First come to this beginning stage. Then gradually other things will come up. You are not in the beginning stage so how will the higher topics come up? This is a very, very subtle and very deep philosophy.

 

Putting full faith in the sadhu you need only submissively hear — sravanam, sravanam, sravanam. In that way you can get the mercy of that sadhu. That will help you. Only one thing is required, nothing else — sravanam, sravanam, sravanam. Just hear. Serve that sadhu, please him, hear submissively, surrender yourself at his lotus feet, and submissively ask questions. Out of mercy, the sadhu will impart this tattva-jnana to you. This is the only process.

 

Unless you get association with a living sadhu, what can you do? Will you put some question to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Prabhupada will answer you? This process is a living thing. It is always there, and it is always current. It is not that inquiry was done a certain way in the past and now things are done differently. No! It is an eternal process, pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya.

 

The unqualified

copy man

[Guest guest]

Needs - diksa. For folloovers SP - from ISKCON guru SP or true follovers SP like Atmatattva Prabhu. NOT FROM ANOTHER.

 

Then - needs siksa. From SP. Another acarya in some degree. If person not understanding goal spiritual life, this reading another acarya it is may be not good. NOT TAKE SIKSA from offenders SP. Some speak about himself like big followers SP, big commentators SP, but it is not this.

 

Then - sastra. As the final verdict.

 

guru-sadhu-sastra

 

Not like this

 

GURU-sadhu-sastra

 

guru-SADHU-SASTRA

 

guru-sadhu-SASTRA

 

Not like this - if you followers some guru for you - GURU (diksa)-sadhu-sastra, (they so love to intimidate the students). For disciples another guru - guru (siksa)-SADHU (siksa)-SASTRA.

[Guest guest]

***Gour Govinda Swami: If Prabhupada says he is there, then you try to see him, associate with him, and listen from him. Do you see Prabhupada? Do you hear from Prabhupada? Is he speaking to you?

 

Yes SP give so match guru. We follow Him. SP be wery glad. For another "siksa" He is speak personally in His letters. No needs follow they.

[Govindaram]

HK

 

This thread has just been added.....Haribol!

[AncientMariner]

 

 

 

 

 

So now that Srila Prabhupada has passed on to the spiritual world who is the most qualified representative of Krishna currently in physical embodiement?

Isn't that the person I should seek association with if associating with Srila Prabhupada's books is not enough? How do I go about finding this person or will He just appear to me when He sees my heart is properly cleansed of material desires?

[AncientMariner]

 

 

 

 

You guys appear to me to be advanced devotees and hopefully that is not just due to my materially defective eyes so does associating in this chatroom with advanced devotees count for good merit with Krishna?

[Guest guest]

Dear Ancient Mariner,

 

Sri Guru will reveal him/herself to you - that is the correct approach. First practice with sincerity and pray with all your heart for guidance - then Caitya Guru (the Lord in the heart) will become manifest to you externally in the form of Sri Guru. Of course we can't force Krsna to reveal himself to us - but he has given the guarantee that he will reciprocate with us according to our surrender and sincerity.

 

As far as who is most advanced and who you should seek to associate with - that is an area of subjective realization and you will not get a definitive answer to such an inquiry.

 

What you are looking for in general though is someone who walks the walk and talks the talk. You are looking for someone whose life is consistent and is cent percent dedicated to serving Sri Guru. As Babhru prabhu pointed out ealier in this thread - Sri Guru leads by example and sets the standard by which we attempt to mold our lives by. In him/her we see our brightest prospect.

 

Good luck in your search.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[Govindaram]

HK

 

I have learned a lot from these forums, as far as good merit is concerned, don't think you should look at it that way, but learn form the word of the different Prabhus, and seek out devotee association and try to be austere by chanting maha-mantra and living by principles of devotional service as best you can, as Srila Prabhupada said-AND READ THE BHAGAVAD-GITA , and Srimad Bhagavatam....Haribol! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[theist]

Sound advice from Audarya-lila prabhu. In the interest of honest disclosure I am one who talks the talk and crawls the walk. I lead with my mouth and actions SOMETIMES follow. Just the opposite of an actual teacher.

 

I post a lot because I am in a fight of desparation. I need to keep this subject matter before my mind and this helps as a type of study aid.

 

As far as I can see there is no substitute for prayer to the Lord in the heart for guidance in this and all matters. People will object "Oh, but we can't hear Supersoul"...That is not the point right now. He can hear us. In Isopanishad He is described as the one Who has been fulfilling our desires since time immemoriable(sp).

 

No one bumps into a kirtan party on the street, receives an invitation to the temple or gets a book by chance. That is the grace from the Lord in the heart manifesting. How to make that more conscious on our part is important. How to learn to be more specific with our desires and raise the quality of the desires is important. To begin to acknowledge that the fulfillment of our desires rests solely on the will of the Supreme Person is important.

 

"Dear Paramatma, please show me in whom and in what form you wish to reveal yourself to me" "Please guide me in my search for you." I don't understand why this is not more emphasized.

 

I think because we still want to remain in darkness about the Lord, that we invent voting and appointing systems as well as taking the advice of our materially molded minds or similarly molded minds of others.

 

Hare Krsna