Prabhupad's Mission to Save the Whole World

[Guruvani]

The issues surrounding the ritvik controversy bring into question the motives and intentions of Srila Prabhupada.

Some contemporary thinkers like to relegate Prabhupada to being a historical figure of the past, a temporary saviour, a guru who's time has passed, a legend, a has-been who tried to save only his direct disciples from illusion.

 

I have gone to the Chaitanya Charitamrita to find something about Vasudeva Datta and his relationship with Mahaprabhu to try and find some insight into the life and teachings of Srila Prabhupada as I think that his compassion and mercy can only be compared to that of Vasudeva Datta in the history of the movement.

 

In that chapter Prabhupada quotes Narottama das Thakur:

 

gaurangera sangi-gane nitya siddha kari' mane

se yaya vrajendrasuta-pasa

 

One who executes Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission must be considered to be eternally liberated. He is a transcendental person and does not belong to this material world. Such a devotee engaging in the deliverance of the total population is as magnanimous as Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself.

 

Devotees of this calibre are working to deliver the total population of the world, not just some so-called disciples who saw his physical presence.

 

(time's up for now got to go to work)

[Guest guest]

also SrilaBhaktisiddhanta's mission is to save the whole world, but he does it through Srila Prabhupada, Srila SridharaMaharaja etc.

 

None of us relegates krsna to be an historical charachter of the past only because he's accepting the mediation of parampara!!!

 

and everyone of us thinks that the christian church is almost spoiled for having started and interrupted his parampara with jesus 2003 years ago

[Guruvani]

In the CC Adi 7 text 31-32 purport, Prabhupada says:

"An Acharya who comes for the service of the Lord cannot be expected to conform to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which the Krishna consciousness movement may be spread"................These jealous fools who criticize the intermingling of boys and girls will simply have to be satsified with their own foolishness because they cannot think of the ways and means which are favorable for this purpose.

THEIR STEREOTYPED METHODS WILL NEVER HELP SPREAD KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS. Therefore, what we are doing is perfect by the grace of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, for it is He who proposed to invent a way to capture those who strayed from Krishna consciousness.

 

 

If Prabhupada was doing everything exactly as the Gaudiya Math and it offshoots were doing it, then why did he have to say that their methods are STEREOTYPED? What was new or different about the way Prabhupada was spreading the movement for him to have to say that he was not conforming to a stereotype?(apart from having women in the temple)

(clue: ritvik)

[Guest guest]

srila prabhupad is speaking against "These jealous fools "who are criticizing..... not against gaudya math or parampara

 

you are doing a bad service to your party

[gHari]

PrabhupAda: They’re his disciple, who is initiating. He is granddisciple.

[Guest guest]

***THEIR STEREOTYPED METHODS WILL NEVER HELP SPREAD KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS.

 

Wery well. If you diksa disciple SP, do not need another diksa guru. If you siksa disciple then SP give you diksa guru.

 

Thanks.

[Guruvani]

jévera päpa laïä muïi karoì naraka bhoga

sakala jévera, prabhu, ghucäha bhava-roga

SYNONYMS

jévera—of all conditioned souls; päpa laïä—accepting the sinful reactions; muïi—I; karoì—do; naraka—hellish life; bhoga—experience; sakala jévera—of all living entities; prabhu—my dear Lord; ghucäha—please finish; bhava-roga—the material disease.

TRANSLATION

“My dear Lord, let me suffer perpetually in a hellish condition, accepting all the sinful reactions of all living entities. Please finish their diseased material life.”

PURPORT

Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura gives the following commentary on this verse. In the Western countries, Christians believe that Lord Jesus Christ, their spiritual master, appeared in order to eradicate all the sins of his disciples. To this end, Lord Jesus Christ appeared and disappeared. Here, however, we find Çré Väsudeva Datta Öhäkura and Çréla Haridäsa Öhäkura to be many millions of times more advanced even when compared with Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ relieved only his followers from all sinful reactions, but Väsudeva Datta is here prepared to accept the sins of everyone in the universe. So the comparative position of Väsudeva Datta is millions of times better than that of Lord Jesus Christ. A Vaiñëava is so liberal that he is prepared to risk everything to rescue the conditioned souls from material existence. Çréla Väsudeva Datta Öhäkura is universal love itself, for he was willing to sacrifice everything and fully engage in the service of the Supreme Lord.

Çréla Väsudeva Datta knew very well that Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu was the original Personality of Godhead, Transcendence itself, above the material conception of illusion and mäyä. Lord Jesus Christ certainly finished the sinful reactions of his followers by his mercy, but that does not mean he completely delivered them from the pangs of material existence. A person may be relieved from sins once, but it is a practice among Christians to confess sins and yet commit them again. By getting freed from sins and again engaging in them, one cannot attain freedom from the pangs of material existence. A diseased person may go to a physician for relief, but after he leaves the hospital he may again be infected due to his unclean habits. Thus material existence continues. Çréla Väsudeva Datta wanted to completely relieve the conditioned souls from material existence so that they would no longer have an opportunity to commit sinful acts. This is the significant difference between Çréla Väsudeva Datta and Lord Jesus Christ. It is a great offense to receive pardon for sins and then commit the same sins again. Such an offense is more dangerous than the sinful activity itself. Väsudeva Datta was so liberal that he requested Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu to transfer all offensive activity upon him so the conditioned souls would be purified and go back home, back to Godhead. This prayer was certainly without duplicity.

Väsudeva Datta’s example is unique not only within this world but within the universe. It is beyond the conception of fruitive actors or the speculation of mundane philosophers. Due to being illusioned by the external energy and due to a poor fund of knowledge, people tend to envy one another. Because of this they are entangled in fruitive activity, and they try to escape this fruitive activity by mental speculation. Consequently neither karmés nor jïänés are purified. In the words of Çréla Bhaktisiddhänta Öhäkura, they are kukarmés and kujïänés—bad fruitive actors and bad speculators. The Mäyävädés and karmés should therefore turn their attention to the magnanimous Väsudeva Datta, who wanted to suffer for others in a hellish condition. No one should consider Väsudeva Datta a mundane philanthropist or welfare worker. Nor was he interested in merging into the Brahman effulgence or in gaining material honor or reputation. He was far, far above philanthropists, philosophers and fruitive actors. He was the most exalted personality to ever show mercy to the conditioned souls. This is not an exaggeration of his transcendental qualities. It is perfectly true. Actually, there cannot be any comparison to Väsudeva Datta. As the perfect Vaiñëava, he was para-duùkha-duùkhé, very much aggrieved to see others suffer. The entire world is purified simply by the appearance of such a great devotee. Indeed, by his transcendental presence the whole world is glorified and all conditioned souls are also glorified. As Narottama däsa Öhäkura confirms, Väsudeva Datta is the ideal devotee of Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu:

gauräìgera saìgi-gaëe, nitya-siddha kari’ mäne,

se yäya vrajendrasuta-päça

One who executes Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu’s mission must be considered eternally liberated. He is a transcendental person and does not belong to this material world. Such a devotee, engaging in the deliverance of the total population, is as magnanimous as Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu Himself.

namo mahä-vadänyäya kåñëa-prema-pradäya te

kåñëäya kåñëa-caitanya-nämne gaura-tviñe namaù

[Madhya 19.53]

Such a personality factually represents Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu because his heart is always filled with compassion for all conditioned souls.

 

[Guruvani]

When Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu heard Väsudeva Datta’s statement, His heart became very soft. Tears flowed from His eyes, and He began to tremble. In a faltering voice He spoke as follows.

[Guruvani]

“Whatever a pure devotee wants from his master, Lord Krishna doubtlessly grants because He has no duty other than to fulfill the desire of His devotee."

[Guruvani]

TRANSLATION

“If you desire the deliverance of all living entities within the universe, then all of them can be delivered even without your undergoing the tribulations of sinful activity.

 

[Guruvani]

NOI text 6 purport

 

Those who think that Krishna consciousness is limited to a certain section of people, a certain section of devotees or a certain tract of land are generally prone to see the external features of the devotee. Such neophytes, unable to appreciate the exalted service of the advanced devotee, try to bring the mahä-bhägavata to their platform. We experience such difficulty in propagating this Krishna consciousness all over the world. Unfortunately we are surrounded by neophyte Godbrothers who do not appreciate the extraordinary activities of spreading Krishna consciousness all over the world. They simply try to bring us to their platform, and they try to criticize us in every respect. We very much regret their naive activities and poor fund of knowledge. An empowered person who is actually engaged in the confidential service of the Lord should not be treated as an ordinary human being, for it is stated that unless one is empowered by Krishna, one cannot spread the Krishna consciousness movement all over the world.

[Guest guest]

you suffer from a bad gaudya math allergy

[theist]

 

NOI text 6 purport

 

Those who think that Krishna consciousness is limited to a certain section of people, a certain section of devotees or a certain tract of land are generally prone to see the external features of the devotee. Such neophytes, unable to appreciate the exalted service of the advanced devotee, try to bring the mahä-bhägavata to their platform.

 

 

Typical sectarian attitude and party spirit that is the enemy of progressive thought and realization. An example might be a religious oraganization becoming defensive (and therefore offensive) at the prospect of another empowered devotee coming to "their" country or territory and preaching Krsna Consciousness. In an attempt to discredit this person they will try to attach so many false motives to his preaching while ignoring the obvious success of his preaching.

[Bhaktavasya]

On another thread you condemn Tripurari Swami for giving encouragement to gays and lesbians to become Krishna Conscious and now you are quoting Prabhupad as saying that such a mentality (that KC is limited to a certain section of people) is the symptom of a neophyte. BTW, Allen Ginsberg was a well-know homosexual yet Prabhupad encouraged him and displayed affection towards him, as evidenced here http://chakra.org./discussions/GenDec29_02.html

 

Are you spreading KC all over the world? On the contrary, as evidenced by your continuous slagging of Tripurari Swami and absense of any talk about Krishna. Then why do you relentlessly critisize those 'godbrothers' such a Tripurari who are doing just that (spreading KC throughout the world)? By Prabhupad's definition he is being empowered and you cannot appreciate his exalted service.

 

Furthermore, whatever disagreements Prabhupad had with his Godbrothers was resolved before he left his body.

 

It appears that you are on a mission to promote riffs and conflict amongst the larger KC society. Give it a rest, Ksamabuddhi. I challenge you to start just one topic that inspires love and service for Radha and Krishna and their wonderful devotees.

[Guruvani]

In response to Bhaktavasya dasi's last post I would just like to clarify a point.

I have never really objected to the idea of homosexuals taking to Krishna consciousness. I know that some of Prabhupada's disciples came from a homosexual background. I narrated in another thread how I had befriended Sudama prabhu in the last months of his life when he was dieing from aids. I have nothing against homosexuals personally. What I object to is that Tripurari Maharaja was criticizing what he calls the "Hindu religion" for not being more understanding and accepting of homosexuals within the spiritual orders of life. He has bought into the propaganda that homosexuality is not actually a sinful mentality but rather an innate nature acquired from birth that should be accepted and recognized as socially acceptable as much as heterosexual relationships.

He even was so brazen as to propose that Prabhupada encouraged some homosexual disciples to "find one young boy and stick with him". His source of information regarding this incident was a homosexual devotee - hardly a reliable source for such a statement.

 

"Find one young boy and be happy in your pedophilia, while cultivating Krishna consciousness".

 

This is what Tripurari Maharaja is saying that Prabhupada was preaching to the homos that came to him.

 

I don't buy it for a minute.

[Guruvani]

CC ch 15 text 171 purport

 

tomara iccha-matre habe brahmanda-mocana

sarva mukta karite krsnera nahi kichu srama

 

"Because of your honest desire, all living entities within the universe will be delivered, for Krishna does not have to do anything to deliver all the living entities of the universe"

 

 

So, we can see here that if Srila Prbhupada wanted to deliver all the future devotees of ISKCON through a ritvik initiation, that Krishna would surely back up his efforts and personally relieve such devotees from their karma and deliver them by the desire of Srila Prabhupada.

 

This is the transcendental principle behind the efficacy of the ritvik doctrine.

The will of the pure devotee is supported and fullfilled by Krishna himself.

[Guest guest]

this verse applies also for bhaktisiddhanta sarasvati.... but srila prabhupada is not his ritvik

[Guruvani]

Not really. Bhaktisiddhanta Goswami did not establish a GBC authority or appoint ritviks, give gayatri by tape etc. etc.

 

Your argument is very weak. Bhaktisiddhanta did not issue a written directive a few weeks before his passing establishing a ritvik authority - Srila Prabhupada did!

 

He also did not personally preach outside of India in a Judeo-Christian society more atuned to the concept of a Universal saviour than to a multitude of gurus and Swamis where saviours are a dime a dozen.

 

Prabhupada made it clear that he did not come to conform to any stereotype - even that of his spiritual master.

[Guest guest]

you said : "This is the transcendental theory behind the efficacy of the ritvik doctrine"

 

so this doctrine is not enough, you have to speculate a little more

[Guruvani]

Well, does "this is the transcendental system behind the ritvik doctrine" ring your bell?

 

For me it was a theory, but in reality it was a principle.

[gHari]

Does "henceforward" spread right into the jurisdiction of the next Brahma, and indeed last forever throughout all the universes that will ever exist, in every material cosmic manifestation that will ever be created, for all of eternity? Throughout each yuga? Even during all the infinite future appearances of Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, will rISKCON be there? You may be able to find Vedic references to it.

 

Is the 'henceforward' in the "Henceforward Doctrine" to be taken to be forever like they say or was that simply more rhetoric and faulty logic? What do the high priests of the henceforward cult say on this? Just how henceforward is henceforward?

 

Is there like a prophesy of a second coming where Prabhupada will appear in the sky and say "Okay, my children, 'henceforward' is over now - it can't last forever - are you nuts!?!? Gimme a break - it was just a word!"

[Guruvani]

Now, now! It only applies to ISKCON as a society of devotees (others outside can be guru if they can attract a following) and only as long as ISKCON continues to represent Prabhupada and his teachings.

 

Prabhupada was simply trying to get as much mileage out of ISKCON as possible. The ritvik principle is Prabhupada's answer to the Christian concept of a saviour. Spreading Krishna consciousness in Christian societies around the world requires a different approach than in India. In integrating Krishna consciousness into western societies Prabhupada tried to leave behind as much of the "polytheistic" character of Hinduism as possible.

The ritvik doctrine is much more readily introduced into a Christian culture than is the polytheistic guru system of dime a dozen saviours in the form of so many Swamis and Gurus.

[gHari]

Prabhupada said how new gurus would be designated. How is it that the Henceforward Cult high priests accept themselves as bonafide without adhering to Prabhupada's blueprint for the eternal Prabhupada-cult. How do they see themselves as authorized by Prabhupada to perform in the Prabhupada-cult?

[Guruvani]

I am not a practicing ritvik, so I can't really speak for those who are, but my best guess is that they feel that the GBC has failed to execute Prabhupada's actual will for ISKCON initiations and so they have felt that someone must take up that work. I feel such thinking is justifiable.

 

Perhaps one of the most prominent and influential ritviks in the U.S. is Yashodanandan Maharaja. He is the same Yashodanandana Swami that is a very senior disciple of Srila Prabhupada. He left ISKCON after the guru conspiracy and left sannyasa and took to married life under strict principles. He has never failed in chanting his 16 rounds minimum and is a strict worshipper of his salagrama-silas and deities. His character is very respectable and his devotion to Prabhupada is quite obvious.

 

He is no small timer. He is a very serious devotee and marvelous preacher. Maybe you should ask someone like him why they feel authorized to function as ritvik. I can only give my best guess as to their motives and intentions.