Just find a nice homosexual boy - stay with him

[Guruvani]

It seems that Tripurari Maharaja is advocating gay marriage with the proposal that they should "find a boy and stay with him". "Stay with him" means to settle down, make a commitment, get married, adopt some children and have a happy family life.

 

Is this his instructions to homosexuals? Get married? Settle down? Adopt some children? Raise some mentally disturbed children who will turn into serial killers?

[stonehearted]

theist: Now I have to wonder if Amara das is one of Tripurari"s disciple's . . .

 

Apart from the mispunctuation, the answer is no. Amara das is one of my Godbrothers, a disciple of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, initiated in 1976. As far as I know, Amara and many of the devotees who you-all so gleefully revile are celibate.

[I_love_krishna_]

I suspect that multiple views are not really allowed here. I will quit posting on this subject.

 

[livingentity]

be back. You can't stay away.

 

This is another trick of yours. Twist things around so you look like the innocent victim. Sorry but it does not work with me. No one said anything about mulitple views - only about speculations of Prabhupada's words and actions which is what you are guilty of doing.

 

Whenever it is suggested that you should read Prabhupada's books you do this little victim act and you run off or something similiar.

 

I find that very suspicious.

[Guruvani]

You are a nice young lady. But I am not going to stop posting my views because you want me to. You always have the option to avoid any threads with topics you do not like.

Asking others to stop writing their own viewpoints is not really fair. You can object to my views and that is fine, but you should not be asking others to refrain from posting their own views. As long as the moderator allows my topics and discussion I consider them as fair and legitimate.

I am objectively discussing the published views of Tripurari Maharaja who seems to enjoy addressing controversial subjects with a controversial opinion. He is fair game for analysis and critique.

[Guest guest]

amara prabhu is the first who have sculpted a prabhupada murti, and with prabhupada permission, he did it when his divine grace was in this world

[Guest guest]

amar das, whoever he is and i do not know, does not seem to know india's history as the hindus know.

 

muslims have invaded india forcibley - none is invited.

they ruled by force and they have caused many hindu genocide over 1000+ years. They have forcibly converted hindus who are now the muslims in pakistan, banglades, and in india.

 

to hide the aggresive and barbacric nature of islam (muslims) by describing them as "migrants" instead of as the barbaric invaders is not doing any justice to the hindus (the vedic people) who gave KC to the world.

 

jai sri krishna!

 

[Guruvani]

Here is Tripurari Swami' views about gay marriage:

 

"A dynamic approach in doing so might involve encouraging homosexuals to also

establish committed relationships in an effort to help them transcend sexuality

altogether, as is done in the case of heterosexuals".

 

Get married he says! Settle down! Adopt some children!

Raise some mentally confused and disturbed children!

 

He calls this a "dynamic approach"! It sure is!

A dynamic approach to insanity!

[Guruvani]

Swami says:

"Modern Hinduism for the most part condemns homosexuality yet misunderstands it

to be an improper choice rather than psycho-physical reality that some people

are born with, rendering them as attracted to the same sex as heterosexuals are

attracted to the opposite sex. As modern society has come to better understand

this phenomenon, it is also imperative that Hindu spiritual traditions do the

same if they are to remain vital".

 

According to the Swami, gay lifestyle is a psychophysical condition arising

from samskaras acquired at birth and is misunderstood to be an abuse of free

will in the direction of perverted behaviour. This opinion however has not been

scientifically or sociologically proven and amounts to nothing more than an

unqualified opinion founded in conjecture which cannot be supported by any

Vedic evidence.

[theist]

Babhru, just because he was intiated by Prabhupada doesn't preclude him from another siksa-guru.

 

They never would have proposed this while Srila Prabhupada was physically present. Never.

 

 

From Amara das's article @

http://www.chakra.org/discussions/GenJul11_03.html

 

 

 

I believe that, within ISKCON, we ought to begin a discussion on solemnizing same-gender marriages with temple ceremonies, just as we now celebrate opposite-gender marriages. I think it is the tide of history. We may fight it, some of us, like King Canute attempting to hold back the waters, but I believe most countries will have civil laws recognizing same-gender marriage.

 

 

 

[Guruvani]

Ain't this lovely?

 

 

It looks like we're headed for angi-hotra yagna in the Hare Krishna temples to unite couples in unholy matrimony. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

That one fella on the left looks awfully red-faced! His ears are like blood red. Maybe he felt a little guilty?

[theist]

Pedophiles also feel a strong urge to have children as sex partners. It feels perfectly natural to them.

[Guest guest]

 

Tripurari Maharaja, in the same sanga article, again uses hearsay from a homosexual to make the claim:

 

I also had the experience of meeting a transexual who explained her sexual orientation and confusion to Srila Prabhupada before committing to an operation. She told me that Prabhupada told her. "Just pick one or the other [sex] and stick with it." Those who knew him well would have expected him to say something like this in both of these incidences. Again he was very flexible and compassionate.

 

 

It is really surprising to me that Tripurari Maharaja would use the hearsay from homosexual devotees as an authoritative reference to a "Prabhupada said" which cannot be verified and is not documented.

 

 

This is not hearsay, Prabhu. It would be a good idea to research things before jumping to hasty conclusions. Not only apparently did Tripurari Swami speak to the person in question, but I also spoke to Jennifer/Wayne. In fact, Jennifer/Wayne spoke to a number of devotees before she/he left for overseas to get the operation. An interesting side note is that she/he was previously an Air Force Cadet in the Wayne incarnation.

 

Anyways, here are the two available letters from Srila Prabhupada to Jennifer/Wayne:

 

Letter to: Jennifer

--

Mexico City

15 February, 1975

 

San Francisco

 

My dear Jennifer,

Please accept my greetings. I am in due reciept of your letter dated Jan. 6th, 1975 and have noted the contents. Thank you for your donation of 20 dollars. We are Vaisnavas. We are not concerned with male or female position in life. That is simply bodily concept of life. It is not spiritual. Whether one is male or female, it doesn't matter, simply chant Hare Krishna and follow the four regulative principles and your life will be perfect.

Regarding initiation, it is required that you be recommend by one of our temple presidents to me and then I shall consider it. First of all, one must have followed the regulative principle for at least six months without deviation. It is not necessarily required to live in the temple, but you must observe the rules.

I hope this meets you in good health.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Svami

ACBS.ps

 

 

Letter to: Jennifer Wayne Woodward

--

Honolulu

10 June, 1975

 

Jennifer Wayne Woodward

3081 16th St. #201

San Francisco, CA. 94103

 

My dear Jennifer,

Please accept my greetings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated June 6, 1975 and have noted the contents. First of all, you decide whether you are female or male, then be one or the other. Then, you may enter our temple any time you like. But sometimes man and sometimes woman, that is not proper. Such awkward thing cannot be allowed. It will be disturbing to others. Anyway, continue to chant Hare Krishna as much as possible.

I hope this meets you in good health.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

ACBS.ps

 

 

These letters are to be found in the Vedabase Folio.

It is interesting to note Srila Prabhupada's wonderful compassion to all who are desirous to make progress on this path, without any consideration to bodily designation. His only concern, expressed in the second letter, is that if Jennifer/Wayne wanted to come to the temple that she/he, enter as either a man or a woman, consistently each time, and not switch around, creating a disturbance to others.

 

In case you're wondering, Jennifer/Wayne never did get initiated by Srila Prabhupada. When she returned from overseas, as a woman (or replica thereof), she seemed to be a bit more interested in women's bodybuilding then devotional topics (at least that was the impression that I got from the only conversation that we have ever had since her return). Before leaving for overseas, she was maintaining Tulasi Devi in her apartment very nicely. After she returned from overseas, I don't know if she resumed that service. Of course, I sincerely hope that she has continued her service, and I pray for her spiritual advancement, for by such prayers, I hope that I may also be the recipient of Lord's continued mercy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guruvani]

 

Contrary to the supposition by the Swami that Hinduism is losing it's vitality

by not being accepting and understanding enough of the gay lifestyle, there is

much evidence to discount his theory and a practical example of how the

opposite is true. Perhaps the biggest blow to Hinduism in modern times is the

damage inflicted upon the Hindu religion by the misconduct of homosexuals and

pedophiles that claimed affiliation with ISKCON and the Krishna consciousness

movement. The vitality of the Hindu religion has been practically sucked out of

it by the misconduct of homosexuals who infiltrated the religion and captured

prominent positions to just cause immense destruction by their sexual

abominations upon children.

 

The vitality of the Hindu religion and the Krishna consciousness movement is

not rejuvenated and restored by political correctness and liberal standards

towards gay people. The vitality of Hinduism and the Krishna consciousness

movement is dependent upon the successful introduction of Vaishnava culture in

a way that becomes practical for all people of all countries of all ethnic and

social backgrounds. There is no need to cater to or favor one particular group

over another. Krishna consciousness should be made available to everyone in

their home - be they gay or morally conservative. The institutional framework

becomes a treacherous and burdensome hulk in the face of so much compromise and

political correctness. Temples and ashrams need to represent the highest

standards and not a watered-down "Salvation Army" style mission of derelicts,

misfits and alternative lifestyles. The qualifications for admittance into such

temples and ashrams should be strictly scrutinized and any persons of

questionable character should not be allowed. Living in a temple or an ashram

should be a privilege of the tried and true and not the right of just any

perverted individual attempting to intrude.

 

The evidence is there that homosexuals practically destroyed ISKCON financially

with the lawsuits brought upon it by the abused children of the gurukula

system. The lesson is there and those who forget the past are prone to repeat

it. From this evidence we can learn that the vitality of the movement is not

dependent upon accommodating and accepting homosexuals and lesbians into the

movement, but rather in encouraging them to practice Krishna consciousness at

home and keep their sexual orientation to themselves as the great Pundit

Chanakhya has said:

"Do not reveal your own faults to others". Considering this, maybe it is better

that some things like sexual preferences are better off kept to oneself or

persons of the gay disposition not be allowed to live in the temples and

ashrams of the Krishna consciousness movement. This will help preserve and

enhance the vitality of Hinduism, not the pandering and pacification of the gay

liberation movement through it's integration and amalgamation into the Krishna

consciousness movement.

[Govindaram]

Chapter 3. Karma-yoga

TEXT 39

 

avrtam jnanam etena

jnanino nitya-vairina

kama-rupena kaunteya

duspurenanalena ca

 

SYNONYMS

 

avrtam--covered; jnanam--pure consciousness; etena--by this; jnaninah--of the knower; nitya-vairina--eternal enemy; kama-rupena--in the form of lust; kaunteya--O son of Kunti; duspurena--never to be satisfied; analena--by the fire; ca--also.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Thus, a man's pure consciousness is covered by his eternal enemy in the form of lust, which is never satisfied and which burns like fire.

 

PURPORT

 

It is said in the Manu-smrti that lust cannot be satisfied by any amount of sense enjoyment, just as fire is never extinguished by a constant supply of fuel. In the material world, the center of all activities is sex, and thus this material world is called maithunya-agara, or the shackles of sex life. In the ordinary prison house, criminals are kept within bars; similarly, the criminals who are disobedient to the laws of the Lord are shackled by sex life. Advancement of material civilization on the basis of sense gratification means increasing the duration of the material existence of a living entity. Therefore, this lust is the symbol of ignorance by which the living entity is kept within the material world. While one enjoys sense gratification, it may be that there is some feeling of happiness, but actually that so-called feeling of happiness is the ultimate enemy of the sense enjoyer.

[Guruvani]

I don't think that "entering the temple" should be equated with living in the ashram.

 

Are we supposed to beleive that Prabhupada expected the women in the temple to accept a transexual male among them living in their ashram, showering and dressing with them?

 

I have no objections to homos, lesbians or transexuals entering the temple for kirtan and aratrika.

 

I will never accept that Prabhupada was saying that this male transexual was to be accepted into the women's ashram of any temple. I don't think the women of any temple would go for that at all.

 

We can also infer from this letter though that if this person could not decide on their identity as male or female that Prabhupada did not even want him/her coming into the temple at all for anything.

[stonehearted]

theist: Babhru, just because he was intiated by Prabhupada doesn't preclude him from another siksa-guru.

 

No, it doesn't. But it appeared to me that you were just looking for a way to jump on the bash-Tripurari bandwagon. I don't think Amara has taken Tripurari Maharaja as a siska guru. He has expressed appreciation for his liberal approach, but done it in a way that seems more distant than a siska disciple.

 

t: They never would have proposed this while Srila Prabhupada was physically present. Never.

 

Are you talking about Ananda? I've knowm him since 1970, and he has always been very liberal--that's how he was brought up. He has also been mostly very strict in his sadhana since 1969. So, because I know him a lot better than you, I'm less certain than you are that he wouldn't have suggested something like this 30 years ago.

[theist]

Letter of 5/26/75

 

My Dear Lalitananda dasa,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated May 13rd, 1975 and have noted the contents. I am very sorry that you have taken to homosex. It will not help you advance in your attempt for spiritual life. In fact, it will only hamper your advancement. I do not know why you have taken to such abominable activities. What can I say? Anyway, try to render whatever service you can to Krishna. Even though you are in a very degraded condition Krishna, being pleased with your service attitude, can pick you up from your fallen state. You should stop this homosex immediately. It is illicit sex, otherwise, your chances of advancing in spiritual life are nil. Show Krishna you are serious, if you are.

I hope this meets you in good health.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

 

I didn't want this letter that LE posted to get lost

[theist]

I think in my early post I confused the name ananda with amara. It is amara's article on Chakra that I find offensive. Did you read it? What do you think?

[theist]

That one fella on the left looks awfully red-faced! His ears are like blood red. Maybe he felt a little guilty? <<

 

I think they are way beyond guilt Guruvani. Maybe that is the blushing bride.

 

 

[Guruvani]

Tripurari Swami says;(about homo sex)

 

Hindu religious scripture clearly mandates that for sexual relationships to be spiritually progressive they must be tied to commitment, generally in the form of sacred vows of marriage. The spirit behind this policy is that the sexual urge, which animates the world, must be regulated if it is to be transcended.

[Guruvani]

Tripurari Swami says:

 

"Hindu scripture is largely silent on homosexuality".

 

 

Maybe that is a good idea? Maybe he should also be LARGELY silent about homosexuality instead of making controversial statements and expressing controversial opinions about it? If he is going to open his mouth and stick his foot into it, maybe silence would be less damaging?

 

Maybe the Hindus follow the Hindu scriptures and keep homosexuality in the closet where it belongs instead of trying to make it mainstream and commonplace.

 

If Swami had ever raised his own children he might have a different view about all this liberal hogwash that is making american society unfit for our children to grow up in.

[Guest guest]

From Ananda's excellent article on Chakra.

 

Another occasional objection is the "thin edge of the wedge" argument that long-overdue recognition of gay rights to marriage will lead to demands for state recognition of polygamy or polyandry. U.S. senator Rick Santorum even worried that it might lead to acceptance of paedophilia or result in demands from farmers to marry their sheep.

 

These are examples of the "slippery-slope" fallacy and can readily be dismissed. Aside from a few men -- sexually rapacious rogue Mormons and some probably insane devotees deeply nostalgic for their concocted solipsist idea of Vedic life, there is simply no demand in North America for simultaneous marriage to multiple partners. Paedophilia inspires such universal loathing that we can be equally certain it will continue to be vigorously prosecuted. So let's not get ridiculous. As they say in South Carolina, and probably in Pennsylvania, too, "That dog won't hunt."

 

I would like to plead with devotees to give this issue some thought. Many of us will have heard some condemnation of gay and lesbian lifestyles, or become habituated to a fairly high level of homophobia, either through the general "background radiation" of social disapproval, through church sermons while growing up, through more or less ignorant talk-radio hosts, through lectures delivered by male temple leaders extremely insecure about their own masculinity or overtly misogynist, or perhaps through reading of bizarre Internet ravings by quite certifiable kooks.

 

We may have heard about an older disgraced "sannyasi" forcing himself upon a young boy and, from our disgust at this repugnant behaviour, we have formed some sort of inchoate generalised revulsion for gays and lesbians in general. This is, of course, totally unfair to the overwhelming majority of gays and lesbians who would never dream of assaulting anyone, much less a minor. Just as the great majority of heterosexual men would never have sex with an unwilling woman or underage girl, the great majority of the gay and lesbian community would never have sex with an unwilling same-gender person, whether adult or child.

 

If we really get to know our friends and extended families, most of us will discover we have gay and lesbian friends and relatives, especially if the climate of society becomes a little more tolerant, and people no longer feel ashamed or fearful to reveal their sexual orientation. As devotees, we need to take the next step, and vigorously challenge any temple speaker who attempts to promote homophobia.

 

We need to tell those devotees who just "haven't got the message" up till now that homophobia is simply unacceptable, whether in civil society or in the temple. Let us start to increase our tolerance and acceptance of devotees who have different orientations from ourselves, especially since scientists generally agree that gays and lesbians have their orientation from birth and, therefore, have little or no choice in the matter. Their only choice has been to hide or to reveal themselves.

 

It is a terrible thing to cajole a gay or lesbian person into a traditional opposite-sex marriage; neither partner is likely to be happy; it is hypocrisy; and it can predispose the secretly gay or lesbian partner to fall down by engaging in risky behaviour outside the marriage, with potentially dire consequences for the couple, such as sexually transmitted diseases, even AIDS, which never occur among committed, monogamous couples.

 

The most effective preacher is a good listener who knows well the person to whom he or she speaks of Krsna consciousness. Maintaining a helpful, empathetic and friendly approach to gays and lesbians is going to be far more productive in terms of preaching success than any amount of abstract, pious moralising or heavy-handed condemnation.

 

Some churches are beginning a serious discussion of gay and lesbian marriage rights. The United Church of Canada is unequivocally supportive.

 

I believe that, within ISKCON, we ought to begin a discussion on solemnizing same-gender marriages with temple ceremonies, just as we now celebrate opposite-gender marriages. I think it is the tide of history. We may fight it, some of us, like King Canute attempting to hold back the waters, but I believe most countries will have civil laws recognizing same-gender marriage.

 

If we have taken an early, progressive stand grounded in common decency, humanity and fellow-feeling for our gay and lesbian members, Sri Sri Radha Krishna will bless us all for truly bringing everyone together on a common platform of love of God, manifested, as Jesus put it, in how well we love one another.

[Guruvani]

That article sounds to me like the writting of some evil element that is trying to infiltrate ISKCON and inject the moral equivalent to the aids virus into the movement.

 

This kind of propaganda sounds like the enemies of goodness are working to make ISKCON into a haven for perverts, freaks and pedophiles.

 

His propaganda will never fly. He is only revealing what total nonsense will infiltrate ISKCON if given half a chance.

 

It is perversion plain and simply. There can be no Holy matrimony between two perverts.

 

Marriage is a spiritual union between men and women, not for homosexual gratification.

[Guest guest]

you have very little ksama, buddy. that makes for bad, non brahminical buddhi. history will burry you alive. you will be known as an uneducated, illiterate, mean-spirited, pervert. no offense intened. just stating the facts.